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Unit1126PLL wrote:The orks would win only because of fungal spread.

Even knowing their biology and how to conquer it, the Imperium must spend immense amount of resources scouring even defeated orks from a planet (Source: Fifteen Hours)

I believe that someone without an understanding of ork biology and with the misconception that it operates anything like a normal humanoid would be drowned in newly-spawned orks continuously until they finally figured it out - which might be hard, as this is an out-of-context problem for the MEverse.

Support is appreciated
You too think that indoctrination wouldn't work here?

Indoctrination would turn orks against each other. Orks are already fighting each other without indoctrination, so what's the point?

Grand_Zamboa wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:The orks would win only because of fungal spread.

Even knowing their biology and how to conquer it, the Imperium must spend immense amount of resources scouring even defeated orks from a planet (Source: Fifteen Hours)

I believe that someone without an understanding of ork biology and with the misconception that it operates anything like a normal humanoid would be drowned in newly-spawned orks continuously until they finally figured it out - which might be hard, as this is an out-of-context problem for the MEverse.

Support is appreciated
You too think that indoctrination wouldn't work here?

I'm not well-versed enough in the indoctrination method to say, but here's my guess.

Premises:
1) The Indoctrination Field works in any of the following ways:
a. psychic thought-imprinting
b. physical neuron-rearranging
c. direct mind control
d. neural repathing (similar to b)

2) The Orks are the same Orks as in 40k.

Conclusion:

The orks cannot be indoctrinated, because:
a. Their thoughts aren't thoughts at all but more like instinct - it would be like indoctrinating a plant.
b. Depending on your fluff source, orks may not even have neurons.
c. The Ork WAAGH belief system would more than likely override direct attempts at mind control through brute mental force.
d. Again, the existence of neurons in the Orkoid species is questionable at best.

Jidmah wrote:Indoctrination would turn orks against each other. Orks are already fighting each other without indoctrination, so what's the point?

The Orks would immediately unite if a challenge such as the Reapers showed up. And the Orks are also very paranoid. If they feel even a slight un-orkiness in some boyz, they immediately slaughter them. The tiny number of indoctrinated Orks would never make a difference.

Grand_Zamboa wrote:Contrary to what the Mass Effect fanboiz believe A) Reaper weapons are not energy based. Only the Collectors had particle beams and the Occuli have small lasers and B) Kinetic Barriers only work against solid projectiles, not Directed Energy Weapons!!!>

The first part of your statement is false. A Reaper's main weapon is in fact a DE weapon.

The second part of your statement is true that kinetic barriers are in fact used to block projectiles (plasma would be included, as a KB works by creating a magnetic field, and a plasma is a collection of charged particles, thus affected by said magnetic field), however it would be possible to modify one to deflect energy weapons. This would be possible by modulating the Mass Effect field to create a gravitational field that could deflect an energy weapon.

Somebody mentioned earlier that the weapons in ME are of the same level of strength as modern day firearms. This is true, however the projectiles are thousands of times smaller than modern projectiles, just accelerated to much, much higher velocities. The only limitations on weapons, as stated in the ME Codex, is the fact that the projectiles are still subject to the laws of physics, thus a weapon still has recoil. Utilizing a ME field, as in the M920 Cain, it is possible to create energies on the level of a small nuke on an easily man-portable level.

Off-topic: Grand_Zamboa, I find it somewhat condescending that you state the superiority of everything 40k, then call those of us arguing in favor of Reaper technology "fanboiz." We don't need to devolve a discussion to inflammatory comments like that, as they serve no purpose in this discussion but to undermine your credibility.

spectreoneone wrote:

Grand_Zamboa wrote:Contrary to what the Mass Effect fanboiz believe A) Reaper weapons are not energy based. Only the Collectors had particle beams and the Occuli have small lasers and B) Kinetic Barriers only work against solid projectiles, not Directed Energy Weapons!!!>

The first part of your statement is false. A Reaper's main weapon is in fact a DE weapon.

The second part of your statement is true that kinetic barriers are in fact used to block projectiles (plasma would be included, as a KB works by creating a magnetic field, and a plasma is a collection of charged particles, thus affected by said magnetic field), however it would be possible to modify one to deflect energy weapons. This would be possible by modulating the Mass Effect field to create a gravitational field that could deflect an energy weapon.

Somebody mentioned earlier that the weapons in ME are of the same level of strength as modern day firearms. This is true, however the projectiles are thousands of times smaller than modern projectiles, just accelerated to much, much higher velocities. The only limitations on weapons, as stated in the ME Codex, is the fact that the projectiles are still subject to the laws of physics, thus a weapon still has recoil. Utilizing a ME field, as in the M920 Cain, it is possible to create energies on the level of a small nuke on an easily man-portable level.

Off-topic: Grand_Zamboa, I find it somewhat condescending that you state the superiority of everything 40k, then call those of us arguing in favor of Reaper technology "fanboiz." We don't need to devolve a discussion to inflammatory comments like that, as they serve no purpose in this discussion but to undermine your credibility.

Actually, the weapons Reapers use just launch molten metal at the fraction of light speed, so they look like lasers, but I assure you they're not energy weapons.

And sorry if I made it seem that way. I know not all pro-ME people are blinded fanboys. But when he said that Reapers are superior to the 40k races, it just felt like an outrage...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

spectreoneone wrote:

Grand_Zamboa wrote:Contrary to what the Mass Effect fanboiz believe A) Reaper weapons are not energy based. Only the Collectors had particle beams and the Occuli have small lasers and B) Kinetic Barriers only work against solid projectiles, not Directed Energy Weapons!!!>

The first part of your statement is false. A Reaper's main weapon is in fact a DE weapon.

The second part of your statement is true that kinetic barriers are in fact used to block projectiles (plasma would be included, as a KB works by creating a magnetic field, and a plasma is a collection of charged particles, thus affected by said magnetic field), however it would be possible to modify one to deflect energy weapons. This would be possible by modulating the Mass Effect field to create a gravitational field that could deflect an energy weapon.

Somebody mentioned earlier that the weapons in ME are of the same level of strength as modern day firearms. This is true, however the projectiles are thousands of times smaller than modern projectiles, just accelerated to much, much higher velocities. The only limitations on weapons, as stated in the ME Codex, is the fact that the projectiles are still subject to the laws of physics, thus a weapon still has recoil. Utilizing a ME field, as in the M920 Cain, it is possible to create energies on the level of a small nuke on an easily man-portable level.

Off-topic: Grand_Zamboa, I find it somewhat condescending that you state the superiority of everything 40k, then call those of us arguing in favor of Reaper technology "fanboiz." We don't need to devolve a discussion to inflammatory comments like that, as they serve no purpose in this discussion but to undermine your credibility.

Sorry, but you're pretty much wrong about the barriers too. Sure, they may sligthly affect energy weapons BUT! at least ninety percent of the energy in a plasma beam is light and heat. If kinetic barriers stopped those then the Normandy would have no need for heat sinks and a stealth system.

And a little addition on the Reaper weapons. They are in fact a magnetic "hydro-dynamic weapon", a more advanced version of the Thanix cannon.

Edit: Oops, my bad. I forgot it was you who said that about the races. ^^;
And one more thing on the KBs.
It is certainly possible, until you consider that directed energy weapons can and have been used on Earth despite the gravitational field, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIRESTRIKE) and that generating a field from within a Reaper to deflect it would unfortunately cause the Reaper to crumple inwards like cheap tin, given that a 2km dreadnought would have to create a field at least as strong as that of the Earth.

I should know better than to get into these debates on this board, because, since this is a 40K fansite, then of course the 40k faction wins. It's really not worth discussing.

Grand_Zamboa wrote:

spectreoneone wrote:

Grand_Zamboa wrote:Contrary to what the Mass Effect fanboiz believe A) Reaper weapons are not energy based. Only the Collectors had particle beams and the Occuli have small lasers and B) Kinetic Barriers only work against solid projectiles, not Directed Energy Weapons!!!>

The first part of your statement is false. A Reaper's main weapon is in fact a DE weapon.

The second part of your statement is true that kinetic barriers are in fact used to block projectiles (plasma would be included, as a KB works by creating a magnetic field, and a plasma is a collection of charged particles, thus affected by said magnetic field), however it would be possible to modify one to deflect energy weapons. This would be possible by modulating the Mass Effect field to create a gravitational field that could deflect an energy weapon.

Somebody mentioned earlier that the weapons in ME are of the same level of strength as modern day firearms. This is true, however the projectiles are thousands of times smaller than modern projectiles, just accelerated to much, much higher velocities. The only limitations on weapons, as stated in the ME Codex, is the fact that the projectiles are still subject to the laws of physics, thus a weapon still has recoil. Utilizing a ME field, as in the M920 Cain, it is possible to create energies on the level of a small nuke on an easily man-portable level.

Off-topic: Grand_Zamboa, I find it somewhat condescending that you state the superiority of everything 40k, then call those of us arguing in favor of Reaper technology "fanboiz." We don't need to devolve a discussion to inflammatory comments like that, as they serve no purpose in this discussion but to undermine your credibility.

Actually, the weapons Reapers use just launch molten metal at the fraction of light speed, so they look like lasers, but I assure you they're not energy weapons.

And sorry if I made it seem that way. I know not all pro-ME people are blinded fanboys. But when he said that Reapers are superior to the 40k races, it just felt like an outrage...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

spectreoneone wrote:

Grand_Zamboa wrote:Contrary to what the Mass Effect fanboiz believe A) Reaper weapons are not energy based. Only the Collectors had particle beams and the Occuli have small lasers and B) Kinetic Barriers only work against solid projectiles, not Directed Energy Weapons!!!>

The first part of your statement is false. A Reaper's main weapon is in fact a DE weapon.

The second part of your statement is true that kinetic barriers are in fact used to block projectiles (plasma would be included, as a KB works by creating a magnetic field, and a plasma is a collection of charged particles, thus affected by said magnetic field), however it would be possible to modify one to deflect energy weapons. This would be possible by modulating the Mass Effect field to create a gravitational field that could deflect an energy weapon.

Somebody mentioned earlier that the weapons in ME are of the same level of strength as modern day firearms. This is true, however the projectiles are thousands of times smaller than modern projectiles, just accelerated to much, much higher velocities. The only limitations on weapons, as stated in the ME Codex, is the fact that the projectiles are still subject to the laws of physics, thus a weapon still has recoil. Utilizing a ME field, as in the M920 Cain, it is possible to create energies on the level of a small nuke on an easily man-portable level.

Off-topic: Grand_Zamboa, I find it somewhat condescending that you state the superiority of everything 40k, then call those of us arguing in favor of Reaper technology "fanboiz." We don't need to devolve a discussion to inflammatory comments like that, as they serve no purpose in this discussion but to undermine your credibility.

Sorry, but you're pretty much wrong about the barriers too. Sure, they may sligthly affect energy weapons BUT! at least ninety percent of the energy in a plasma beam is light and heat. If kinetic barriers stopped those then the Normandy would have no need for heat sinks and a stealth system.

And a little addition on the Reaper weapons. They are in fact a magnetic "hydro-dynamic weapon", a more advanced version of the Thanix cannon.

I disagree with you on plasma. The light and heat is created when a plasma interacts with other particles (which, in actuality, precludes their use in an atmospheric environment...but that's another topic). A plasma is merely an ionized gas; charged particles. Sure, they give off light, but that's about as damaging as the light given off by a bolt of lightning (which, in fact, is a form of plasma). Plasmas can easily be contained by a strong magnetic field, which I would venture to say, would make the kinetic barriers more effective against a plasma than a kinetic energy weapon.

As for other energy weapons (lasers, particle beams, etc.), as I stated, by modulating a ME field, you could create a gravitational sinkhole to deflect the beam. Light is most definitely affected by gravity, as is evident by gravitational lensing of light around black holes and neutron stars. I would venture to guess that about the only possible weapon that an ME field couldn't affect would be a melta-type (although I'm not sure of that, either, because I'm not 100% sure as to what method that heat energy is projected).

I'm not trying to say that ME fields would render Reapers invincible, as power limitations would only be able to deflect so much energy, be it kinetic or energy based. I'm just saying that ME fields are a lot more versatile and effective than you're giving them credit for.

Psienesis wrote:I should know better than to get into these debates on this board, because, since this is a 40K fansite, then of course the 40k faction wins. It's really not worth discussing.

This discussion was meant to stay in the reasonable boundaries. I hope it still is...

spectreoneone wrote:

Grand_Zamboa wrote:

spectreoneone wrote:

Grand_Zamboa wrote:Contrary to what the Mass Effect fanboiz believe A) Reaper weapons are not energy based. Only the Collectors had particle beams and the Occuli have small lasers and B) Kinetic Barriers only work against solid projectiles, not Directed Energy Weapons!!!>

The first part of your statement is false. A Reaper's main weapon is in fact a DE weapon.

The second part of your statement is true that kinetic barriers are in fact used to block projectiles (plasma would be included, as a KB works by creating a magnetic field, and a plasma is a collection of charged particles, thus affected by said magnetic field), however it would be possible to modify one to deflect energy weapons. This would be possible by modulating the Mass Effect field to create a gravitational field that could deflect an energy weapon.

Somebody mentioned earlier that the weapons in ME are of the same level of strength as modern day firearms. This is true, however the projectiles are thousands of times smaller than modern projectiles, just accelerated to much, much higher velocities. The only limitations on weapons, as stated in the ME Codex, is the fact that the projectiles are still subject to the laws of physics, thus a weapon still has recoil. Utilizing a ME field, as in the M920 Cain, it is possible to create energies on the level of a small nuke on an easily man-portable level.

Off-topic: Grand_Zamboa, I find it somewhat condescending that you state the superiority of everything 40k, then call those of us arguing in favor of Reaper technology "fanboiz." We don't need to devolve a discussion to inflammatory comments like that, as they serve no purpose in this discussion but to undermine your credibility.

Actually, the weapons Reapers use just launch molten metal at the fraction of light speed, so they look like lasers, but I assure you they're not energy weapons.

And sorry if I made it seem that way. I know not all pro-ME people are blinded fanboys. But when he said that Reapers are superior to the 40k races, it just felt like an outrage...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

spectreoneone wrote:

Grand_Zamboa wrote:Contrary to what the Mass Effect fanboiz believe A) Reaper weapons are not energy based. Only the Collectors had particle beams and the Occuli have small lasers and B) Kinetic Barriers only work against solid projectiles, not Directed Energy Weapons!!!>

The first part of your statement is false. A Reaper's main weapon is in fact a DE weapon.

The second part of your statement is true that kinetic barriers are in fact used to block projectiles (plasma would be included, as a KB works by creating a magnetic field, and a plasma is a collection of charged particles, thus affected by said magnetic field), however it would be possible to modify one to deflect energy weapons. This would be possible by modulating the Mass Effect field to create a gravitational field that could deflect an energy weapon.

Somebody mentioned earlier that the weapons in ME are of the same level of strength as modern day firearms. This is true, however the projectiles are thousands of times smaller than modern projectiles, just accelerated to much, much higher velocities. The only limitations on weapons, as stated in the ME Codex, is the fact that the projectiles are still subject to the laws of physics, thus a weapon still has recoil. Utilizing a ME field, as in the M920 Cain, it is possible to create energies on the level of a small nuke on an easily man-portable level.

Off-topic: Grand_Zamboa, I find it somewhat condescending that you state the superiority of everything 40k, then call those of us arguing in favor of Reaper technology "fanboiz." We don't need to devolve a discussion to inflammatory comments like that, as they serve no purpose in this discussion but to undermine your credibility.

Sorry, but you're pretty much wrong about the barriers too. Sure, they may sligthly affect energy weapons BUT! at least ninety percent of the energy in a plasma beam is light and heat. If kinetic barriers stopped those then the Normandy would have no need for heat sinks and a stealth system.

And a little addition on the Reaper weapons. They are in fact a magnetic "hydro-dynamic weapon", a more advanced version of the Thanix cannon.

I disagree with you on plasma. The light and heat is created when a plasma interacts with other particles (which, in actuality, precludes their use in an atmospheric environment...but that's another topic). A plasma is merely an ionized gas; charged particles. Sure, they give off light, but that's about as damaging as the light given off by a bolt of lightning (which, in fact, is a form of plasma). Plasmas can easily be contained by a strong magnetic field, which I would venture to say, would make the kinetic barriers more effective against a plasma than a kinetic energy weapon.

As for other energy weapons (lasers, particle beams, etc.), as I stated, by modulating a ME field, you could create a gravitational sinkhole to deflect the beam. Light is most definitely affected by gravity, as is evident by gravitational lensing of light around black holes and neutron stars. I would venture to guess that about the only possible weapon that an ME field couldn't affect would be a melta-type (although I'm not sure of that, either, because I'm not 100% sure as to what method that heat energy is projected).

I'm not trying to say that ME fields would render Reapers invincible, as power limitations would only be able to deflect so much energy, be it kinetic or energy based. I'm just saying that ME fields are a lot more versatile and effective than you're giving them credit for.

Wow, you know much about this stuff, but I still can't agree with you. Directed Energy Weapons don't just consist of plasma, but also high intensity light weapons and light would get through, otherwise the KBs would be completely opaque.

The Codex itself says that Kinetic Barriers are mass effect fields, not magnetic fields and that they don't protect against extremes of heat, toxins and radiation.

Grand_Zamboa wrote:

Psienesis wrote:I should know better than to get into these debates on this board, because, since this is a 40K fansite, then of course the 40k faction wins. It's really not worth discussing.

This discussion was meant to stay in the reasonable boundaries. I hope it still is...

I'm a huge 40k fan, as well as a ME fan. Could probably say I'm a fanboy for both, it's just that I don't really believe that 40k is the "be all, end all" in terms of power. I know I said it, and at least one other person said it, but 40k is totally off-the-wall, barely rooted in reality, whereas ME is more rooted in reality in terms of technology. 40k also has 25 years of background fluff, retcons, etc. that can be drawn from, where ME has only been around for about 5. Regardless...I think that there are several key arguments that swing in favor of the Reapers being a more serious threat than folks draw them out to be...that's why I'm arguing in the case of them.

spectreoneone wrote:

Grand_Zamboa wrote:

Psienesis wrote:I should know better than to get into these debates on this board, because, since this is a 40K fansite, then of course the 40k faction wins. It's really not worth discussing.

This discussion was meant to stay in the reasonable boundaries. I hope it still is...

I'm a huge 40k fan, as well as a ME fan. Could probably say I'm a fanboy for both, it's just that I don't really believe that 40k is the "be all, end all" in terms of power. I know I said it, and at least one other person said it, but 40k is totally off-the-wall, barely rooted in reality, whereas ME is more rooted in reality in terms of technology. 40k also has 25 years of background fluff, retcons, etc. that can be drawn from, where ME has only been around for about 5. Regardless...I think that there are several key arguments that swing in favor of the Reapers being a more serious threat than folks draw them out to be...that's why I'm arguing in the case of them.

I could say I'm probably a 2-way fanboy here as well <<
And true about the age.
And what could those arguements be? This I gotta hear

Grand_Zamboa wrote:

spectreoneone wrote:

Grand_Zamboa wrote:

spectreoneone wrote:

Grand_Zamboa wrote:Contrary to what the Mass Effect fanboiz believe A) Reaper weapons are not energy based. Only the Collectors had particle beams and the Occuli have small lasers and B) Kinetic Barriers only work against solid projectiles, not Directed Energy Weapons!!!>

The first part of your statement is false. A Reaper's main weapon is in fact a DE weapon.

The second part of your statement is true that kinetic barriers are in fact used to block projectiles (plasma would be included, as a KB works by creating a magnetic field, and a plasma is a collection of charged particles, thus affected by said magnetic field), however it would be possible to modify one to deflect energy weapons. This would be possible by modulating the Mass Effect field to create a gravitational field that could deflect an energy weapon.

Somebody mentioned earlier that the weapons in ME are of the same level of strength as modern day firearms. This is true, however the projectiles are thousands of times smaller than modern projectiles, just accelerated to much, much higher velocities. The only limitations on weapons, as stated in the ME Codex, is the fact that the projectiles are still subject to the laws of physics, thus a weapon still has recoil. Utilizing a ME field, as in the M920 Cain, it is possible to create energies on the level of a small nuke on an easily man-portable level.

Off-topic: Grand_Zamboa, I find it somewhat condescending that you state the superiority of everything 40k, then call those of us arguing in favor of Reaper technology "fanboiz." We don't need to devolve a discussion to inflammatory comments like that, as they serve no purpose in this discussion but to undermine your credibility.

Actually, the weapons Reapers use just launch molten metal at the fraction of light speed, so they look like lasers, but I assure you they're not energy weapons.

And sorry if I made it seem that way. I know not all pro-ME people are blinded fanboys. But when he said that Reapers are superior to the 40k races, it just felt like an outrage...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

spectreoneone wrote:

Grand_Zamboa wrote:Contrary to what the Mass Effect fanboiz believe A) Reaper weapons are not energy based. Only the Collectors had particle beams and the Occuli have small lasers and B) Kinetic Barriers only work against solid projectiles, not Directed Energy Weapons!!!>

The first part of your statement is false. A Reaper's main weapon is in fact a DE weapon.

The second part of your statement is true that kinetic barriers are in fact used to block projectiles (plasma would be included, as a KB works by creating a magnetic field, and a plasma is a collection of charged particles, thus affected by said magnetic field), however it would be possible to modify one to deflect energy weapons. This would be possible by modulating the Mass Effect field to create a gravitational field that could deflect an energy weapon.

Somebody mentioned earlier that the weapons in ME are of the same level of strength as modern day firearms. This is true, however the projectiles are thousands of times smaller than modern projectiles, just accelerated to much, much higher velocities. The only limitations on weapons, as stated in the ME Codex, is the fact that the projectiles are still subject to the laws of physics, thus a weapon still has recoil. Utilizing a ME field, as in the M920 Cain, it is possible to create energies on the level of a small nuke on an easily man-portable level.

Off-topic: Grand_Zamboa, I find it somewhat condescending that you state the superiority of everything 40k, then call those of us arguing in favor of Reaper technology "fanboiz." We don't need to devolve a discussion to inflammatory comments like that, as they serve no purpose in this discussion but to undermine your credibility.

Sorry, but you're pretty much wrong about the barriers too. Sure, they may sligthly affect energy weapons BUT! at least ninety percent of the energy in a plasma beam is light and heat. If kinetic barriers stopped those then the Normandy would have no need for heat sinks and a stealth system.

And a little addition on the Reaper weapons. They are in fact a magnetic "hydro-dynamic weapon", a more advanced version of the Thanix cannon.

I disagree with you on plasma. The light and heat is created when a plasma interacts with other particles (which, in actuality, precludes their use in an atmospheric environment...but that's another topic). A plasma is merely an ionized gas; charged particles. Sure, they give off light, but that's about as damaging as the light given off by a bolt of lightning (which, in fact, is a form of plasma). Plasmas can easily be contained by a strong magnetic field, which I would venture to say, would make the kinetic barriers more effective against a plasma than a kinetic energy weapon.

As for other energy weapons (lasers, particle beams, etc.), as I stated, by modulating a ME field, you could create a gravitational sinkhole to deflect the beam. Light is most definitely affected by gravity, as is evident by gravitational lensing of light around black holes and neutron stars. I would venture to guess that about the only possible weapon that an ME field couldn't affect would be a melta-type (although I'm not sure of that, either, because I'm not 100% sure as to what method that heat energy is projected).

I'm not trying to say that ME fields would render Reapers invincible, as power limitations would only be able to deflect so much energy, be it kinetic or energy based. I'm just saying that ME fields are a lot more versatile and effective than you're giving them credit for.

Wow, you know much about this stuff, but I still can't agree with you. Directed Energy Weapons don't just consist of plasma, but also high intensity light weapons and light would get through, otherwise the KBs would be completely opaque.

The Codex itself says that Kinetic Barriers are mass effect fields, not magnetic fields and that they don't protect against extremes of heat, toxins and radiation.

The Codex does state (I'd have to be at home to find a direct quote on it...work computer blocks a lot) that the method the ME field uses for stopping projectiles is a strong magnetic force that effects even non-ferrous materials. You are right on about heat, toxins, and radiation, and I don't disagree with you on that (although I'm sure that there would be a way to modulate an ME field to block those...might take time to research that capability, though).

You are kind of cherry picking my arguments, though, as I never stated that all DE weapons are plasma-based, and I never claimed that a KB would block a light-based energy weapon. I'm not disputing that a normal KB won't block or deflect a laser, I said that you could modulate an ME field to create a gravitational sinkhole to deflect a light-based weapon. You mentioned that something like that would crush the reaper like a tin can, but all you have to do is contain a warp field in a ME field (much like tech armor does) to create this gravitational sinkhole, thus deflecting the beam.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grand_Zamboa wrote:

spectreoneone wrote:

Grand_Zamboa wrote:

Psienesis wrote:I should know better than to get into these debates on this board, because, since this is a 40K fansite, then of course the 40k faction wins. It's really not worth discussing.

This discussion was meant to stay in the reasonable boundaries. I hope it still is...

I'm a huge 40k fan, as well as a ME fan. Could probably say I'm a fanboy for both, it's just that I don't really believe that 40k is the "be all, end all" in terms of power. I know I said it, and at least one other person said it, but 40k is totally off-the-wall, barely rooted in reality, whereas ME is more rooted in reality in terms of technology. 40k also has 25 years of background fluff, retcons, etc. that can be drawn from, where ME has only been around for about 5. Regardless...I think that there are several key arguments that swing in favor of the Reapers being a more serious threat than folks draw them out to be...that's why I'm arguing in the case of them.

I could say I'm probably a 2-way fanboy here as well <<
And true about the age.
And what could those arguements be? This I gotta hear

The Reapers number in at least the tens of thousands, and are huge, sentient machines capable of rending most other space vessels to slag (yes, I know they're not as big a some of the biggest 40k ships, but I'd like to see a few dozen ships survive an onslaught of thousands of Reapers...not saying that the Reapers wouldn't lose some...but thousands of 1-2km size class ships is a force not to be ignored).

The Reapers are capable of indoctrination and are highly adept at creating foot soldiers out of living and fallen enemies (something that there is really no end to in the 40k universe). They have a huge pool of possible troops, especially in the form of the IoM.

While it can be disputed that the Necrons might not be susceptible to the Reaper Code like the Geth (I still think they could control Warriors), IoM machines containing a Machine Spirit (which I understand to be an AI), could potentially fall under control of the Reapers, and a Reaper-controlled Titan would be terrifying.

Some folks (it was in another similar thread) feel as if the Reapers can't reproduce, which is false. Sure, it takes a while (a few months, is what it seems like, based upon the timeline in ME2), but that capability is terrifying, too, especially if they start harvesting, say, Orks, which would potentially turn into a Reaper that self-reproduces upon destruction, since the Reapers take on many of the traits of the creatures harvested to create them.

These are some of my main arguments that I feel put the Reapers on the level of the Tyranids in terms of threat to the galaxy.

The orks just need some color filters on explosives and they can beat anything the ME universe can toss at them

spectreoneone wrote:

Grand_Zamboa wrote:

spectreoneone wrote:

Grand_Zamboa wrote:

spectreoneone wrote:

Grand_Zamboa wrote:Contrary to what the Mass Effect fanboiz believe A) Reaper weapons are not energy based. Only the Collectors had particle beams and the Occuli have small lasers and B) Kinetic Barriers only work against solid projectiles, not Directed Energy Weapons!!!>

The first part of your statement is false. A Reaper's main weapon is in fact a DE weapon.

The second part of your statement is true that kinetic barriers are in fact used to block projectiles (plasma would be included, as a KB works by creating a magnetic field, and a plasma is a collection of charged particles, thus affected by said magnetic field), however it would be possible to modify one to deflect energy weapons. This would be possible by modulating the Mass Effect field to create a gravitational field that could deflect an energy weapon.

Somebody mentioned earlier that the weapons in ME are of the same level of strength as modern day firearms. This is true, however the projectiles are thousands of times smaller than modern projectiles, just accelerated to much, much higher velocities. The only limitations on weapons, as stated in the ME Codex, is the fact that the projectiles are still subject to the laws of physics, thus a weapon still has recoil. Utilizing a ME field, as in the M920 Cain, it is possible to create energies on the level of a small nuke on an easily man-portable level.

Off-topic: Grand_Zamboa, I find it somewhat condescending that you state the superiority of everything 40k, then call those of us arguing in favor of Reaper technology "fanboiz." We don't need to devolve a discussion to inflammatory comments like that, as they serve no purpose in this discussion but to undermine your credibility.

Actually, the weapons Reapers use just launch molten metal at the fraction of light speed, so they look like lasers, but I assure you they're not energy weapons.

And sorry if I made it seem that way. I know not all pro-ME people are blinded fanboys. But when he said that Reapers are superior to the 40k races, it just felt like an outrage...


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spectreoneone wrote:

Grand_Zamboa wrote:Contrary to what the Mass Effect fanboiz believe A) Reaper weapons are not energy based. Only the Collectors had particle beams and the Occuli have small lasers and B) Kinetic Barriers only work against solid projectiles, not Directed Energy Weapons!!!>

The first part of your statement is false. A Reaper's main weapon is in fact a DE weapon.

The second part of your statement is true that kinetic barriers are in fact used to block projectiles (plasma would be included, as a KB works by creating a magnetic field, and a plasma is a collection of charged particles, thus affected by said magnetic field), however it would be possible to modify one to deflect energy weapons. This would be possible by modulating the Mass Effect field to create a gravitational field that could deflect an energy weapon.

Somebody mentioned earlier that the weapons in ME are of the same level of strength as modern day firearms. This is true, however the projectiles are thousands of times smaller than modern projectiles, just accelerated to much, much higher velocities. The only limitations on weapons, as stated in the ME Codex, is the fact that the projectiles are still subject to the laws of physics, thus a weapon still has recoil. Utilizing a ME field, as in the M920 Cain, it is possible to create energies on the level of a small nuke on an easily man-portable level.

Off-topic: Grand_Zamboa, I find it somewhat condescending that you state the superiority of everything 40k, then call those of us arguing in favor of Reaper technology "fanboiz." We don't need to devolve a discussion to inflammatory comments like that, as they serve no purpose in this discussion but to undermine your credibility.

Sorry, but you're pretty much wrong about the barriers too. Sure, they may sligthly affect energy weapons BUT! at least ninety percent of the energy in a plasma beam is light and heat. If kinetic barriers stopped those then the Normandy would have no need for heat sinks and a stealth system.

And a little addition on the Reaper weapons. They are in fact a magnetic "hydro-dynamic weapon", a more advanced version of the Thanix cannon.

I disagree with you on plasma. The light and heat is created when a plasma interacts with other particles (which, in actuality, precludes their use in an atmospheric environment...but that's another topic). A plasma is merely an ionized gas; charged particles. Sure, they give off light, but that's about as damaging as the light given off by a bolt of lightning (which, in fact, is a form of plasma). Plasmas can easily be contained by a strong magnetic field, which I would venture to say, would make the kinetic barriers more effective against a plasma than a kinetic energy weapon.

As for other energy weapons (lasers, particle beams, etc.), as I stated, by modulating a ME field, you could create a gravitational sinkhole to deflect the beam. Light is most definitely affected by gravity, as is evident by gravitational lensing of light around black holes and neutron stars. I would venture to guess that about the only possible weapon that an ME field couldn't affect would be a melta-type (although I'm not sure of that, either, because I'm not 100% sure as to what method that heat energy is projected).

I'm not trying to say that ME fields would render Reapers invincible, as power limitations would only be able to deflect so much energy, be it kinetic or energy based. I'm just saying that ME fields are a lot more versatile and effective than you're giving them credit for.

Wow, you know much about this stuff, but I still can't agree with you. Directed Energy Weapons don't just consist of plasma, but also high intensity light weapons and light would get through, otherwise the KBs would be completely opaque.

The Codex itself says that Kinetic Barriers are mass effect fields, not magnetic fields and that they don't protect against extremes of heat, toxins and radiation.

The Codex does state (I'd have to be at home to find a direct quote on it...work computer blocks a lot) that the method the ME field uses for stopping projectiles is a strong magnetic force that effects even non-ferrous materials. You are right on about heat, toxins, and radiation, and I don't disagree with you on that (although I'm sure that there would be a way to modulate an ME field to block those...might take time to research that capability, though).

You are kind of cherry picking my arguments, though, as I never stated that all DE weapons are plasma-based, and I never claimed that a KB would block a light-based energy weapon. I'm not disputing that a normal KB won't block or deflect a laser, I said that you could modulate an ME field to create a gravitational sinkhole to deflect a light-based weapon. You mentioned that something like that would crush the reaper like a tin can, but all you have to do is contain a warp field in a ME field (much like tech armor does) to create this gravitational sinkhole, thus deflecting the beam.


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Grand_Zamboa wrote:

spectreoneone wrote:

Grand_Zamboa wrote:

Psienesis wrote:I should know better than to get into these debates on this board, because, since this is a 40K fansite, then of course the 40k faction wins. It's really not worth discussing.

This discussion was meant to stay in the reasonable boundaries. I hope it still is...

I'm a huge 40k fan, as well as a ME fan. Could probably say I'm a fanboy for both, it's just that I don't really believe that 40k is the "be all, end all" in terms of power. I know I said it, and at least one other person said it, but 40k is totally off-the-wall, barely rooted in reality, whereas ME is more rooted in reality in terms of technology. 40k also has 25 years of background fluff, retcons, etc. that can be drawn from, where ME has only been around for about 5. Regardless...I think that there are several key arguments that swing in favor of the Reapers being a more serious threat than folks draw them out to be...that's why I'm arguing in the case of them.

I could say I'm probably a 2-way fanboy here as well <<
And true about the age.
And what could those arguements be? This I gotta hear

The Reapers number in at least the tens of thousands, and are huge, sentient machines capable of rending most other space vessels to slag (yes, I know they're not as big a some of the biggest 40k ships, but I'd like to see a few dozen ships survive an onslaught of thousands of Reapers...not saying that the Reapers wouldn't lose some...but thousands of 1-2km size class ships is a force not to be ignored).

The Reapers are capable of indoctrination and are highly adept at creating foot soldiers out of living and fallen enemies (something that there is really no end to in the 40k universe). They have a huge pool of possible troops, especially in the form of the IoM.

While it can be disputed that the Necrons might not be susceptible to the Reaper Code like the Geth (I still think they could control Warriors), IoM machines containing a Machine Spirit (which I understand to be an AI), could potentially fall under control of the Reapers, and a Reaper-controlled Titan would be terrifying.

Some folks (it was in another similar thread) feel as if the Reapers can't reproduce, which is false. Sure, it takes a while (a few months, is what it seems like, based upon the timeline in ME2), but that capability is terrifying, too, especially if they start harvesting, say, Orks, which would potentially turn into a Reaper that self-reproduces upon destruction, since the Reapers take on many of the traits of the creatures harvested to create them.

These are some of my main arguments that I feel put the Reapers on the level of the Tyranids in terms of threat to the galaxy.

I'm not trying to act insulting or something and I something get carried away <<;
Now...

First thing to deal with. The Kinetic Barriers are not in any way magnetic fields. The are repulsive Mass Effect fields which are created by the increase or decreaser of mass over a given area not the introduction of electromagnetic fields. The creation of a gravitational sinkhole to deflect light based weaponry is possible, but the amount of power and the high levels of gravity you would need to bend a highly focussed beam of light like a GARDIAN laser would be extreme enough that it would be at least detrimental to the Reaper, not least because it would require that power be diverted from other systems. There is only so much power that one ship can generate.

And the Reapers, well, the numbers advantage, tens of thousands, is negated by the fact that the 40k universe possesses electromagnetic pulse weaponry which fries circuitry. They can create as many husks as they like, it doesn't help when their tech just stops working.
There's no evidence that the Reapers can control true AI. The Geth are called an AI, but ME also states that Legion wants to upload the Reaper Code to the Geth to achieve true intelligence, meaning that they are no fully AI to begin with.
In fact, EDI repulses the attempt by the Collector General to attack the Normandy during the Collector Ship mission and the general is controlled by Harbinger.

As for the possibility of harvesting Orks, the Protheans have shown that not all species are actually capable of becoming Reapers. Some are biologically incompatible. I'm not sure why, but there's a chance that the Orkz might not be able to become a Reaper. Despite that, the Reapers do appear to be made of the same material as the Relays and the only way to destroy those was with an asteroid drop.

Personally, I'd put the Reapers on ther same level as the canon Imperium of Man given how much tech was lost, but definitely not on the level of the Tyranids.

Vaktathi wrote:The orks just need some color filters on explosives and they can beat anything the ME universe can toss at them

LOL...okay, now you're just getting ridiculous...

Well, if it's all these Reapers with their Husks, Indoctrinated Slaves and sheer Firepower against a lone WAAAAAGGHH!!... I think da Boyz would have hell of a fight on their hands. Though, I think they could easily take the Citadel. But in a protracted War they might end up like they are with the IoM. A looted Reaper would be something I'd like to see.

TheCustomLime wrote:Well, if it's all these Reapers with their Husks, Indoctrinated Slaves and sheer Firepower against a lone WAAAAAGGHH!!... I think da Boyz would have hell of a fight on their hands. Though, I think they could easily take the Citadel. But in a protracted War they might end up like they are with the IoM. A looted Reaper would be something I'd like to see.

Like "Ready da Reapa, mr. Nailbrain!"?

@Grand_Zamboa
The sheer Orkiness... it's bootiful.

Another thing that against the Orks in their war is that a lot of their stuff is looted from the Imperium. IIRC, a lot of their stuff is built on instinct, but as their stolen IoM stuff got destroyed they would have to rely more and more on Mass Effect stuff. As the war progressed, I'd imagine their threat level would go down as casualties and tech loss mounted. At the end of ME3, they would be another species in the galaxy that while tough, isn't too much of a problem. However, as they say, it's hard to keep a good Ork down...

TheCustomLime wrote:@Grand_Zamboa
The sheer Orkiness... it's bootiful.

Another thing that against the Orks in their war is that a lot of their stuff is looted from the Imperium. IIRC, a lot of their stuff is built on instinct, but as their stolen IoM stuff got destroyed they would have to rely more and more on Mass Effect stuff. As the war progressed, I'd imagine their threat level would go down as casualties and tech loss mounted. At the end of ME3, they would be another species in the galaxy that while tough, isn't too much of a problem. However, as they say, it's hard to keep a good Ork down...

Yea, lol.

But you're forgetting how fast Orks reproduce. Losses are never an issue to them. And the stuff Orks build on instinct is good enough. Take Kustom Forcefield, Kustom Tellyporta or Shokk Attack Gun for example...

Very, very true. Orks are also adept at making powerful weapons out of nothing, so they could make a slugga out of a Predator pistol. One must also consider how united the races of the Citadel are, though.
Salarian Commander: "Men, we will be fighting an enemy using weapons that are light years ahead of us, are completely resistant to our own firearms, and are innumerable".

Salarian trooper: "Will we hold the line, commander?".

Commander: "No! We are going to drown them with our dead! Move it, you dogs!"

I'd buy a ME spin off featuring the Orks.

spectreoneone wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:The orks just need some color filters on explosives and they can beat anything the ME universe can toss at them

LOL...okay, now you're just getting ridiculous...

Red explosions, Blue explosions, Green explosions!

XD





In all seriousness though, ME3 ending jokes aside, Orks are fantasy universe creatures in SPAAAACE, Mass Effect is much more traditional scifi, comparing the two is rather difficult.

Vaktathi wrote:

spectreoneone wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:The orks just need some color filters on explosives and they can beat anything the ME universe can toss at them

LOL...okay, now you're just getting ridiculous...

Red explosions, Blue explosions, Green explosions!

XD





In all seriousness though, ME3 ending jokes aside, Orks are fantasy universe creatures in SPAAAACE, Mass Effect is much more traditional scifi, comparing the two is rather difficult.

Da red wuns explode fasta! Da blues ones splode luckier, see?

TheCustomLime wrote:@Grand_Zamboa
The sheer Orkiness... it's bootiful.

Another thing that against the Orks in their war is that a lot of their stuff is looted from the Imperium. IIRC, a lot of their stuff is built on instinct, but as their stolen IoM stuff got destroyed they would have to rely more and more on Mass Effect stuff. As the war progressed, I'd imagine their threat level would go down as casualties and tech loss mounted. At the end of ME3, they would be another species in the galaxy that while tough, isn't too much of a problem. However, as they say, it's hard to keep a good Ork down...

A good thing to remember about the Orks is that despite the fact that they loot a lot from the Imperium, it is often due to them liking how it looks or because it would be more work to build it themselves, rather than being unable to build the technology themselves. I concede that their looted Imperial tech is generally more reliable due to superior construction, but they wouldn't just take ME tech, paint it red, and use it....though they would still paint it red. They'd gut all the useless bitz out and add their own weapons: which would be unrealiable, but potentially powerful since they can go from barely sparking to blowing up a Baneblade in the space of two shots.

Edit: Oh, one other thing. Biotics meets the Wierdboy, anyone?

TheCustomLime wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

spectreoneone wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:The orks just need some color filters on explosives and they can beat anything the ME universe can toss at them

LOL...okay, now you're just getting ridiculous...

Red explosions, Blue explosions, Green explosions!

XD





In all seriousness though, ME3 ending jokes aside, Orks are fantasy universe creatures in SPAAAACE, Mass Effect is much more traditional scifi, comparing the two is rather difficult.

Da red wuns explode fasta! Da blues ones splode luckier, see?

I didn't know about the blue. Thx for enlightening me

@masterThardus
Fair point. I said something like that, but you said it better.

@Grand_Zamboa
I think blue is lucky. Oh, and the purple explosions would be all kunnin' and sneaky like. Have you ever seen a purple explosion?

TheCustomLime wrote:@masterThardus
Fair point. I said something like that, but you said it better.

@Grand_Zamboa
I think blue is lucky. Oh, and the purple explosions would be all kunnin' and sneaky like. Have you ever seen a purple explosion?

Nah, probably only when a Slaaneshi sorcerer casts spells. XD

Slaneeshi purple splosion spells. Probably a combo of pain and pleasure, like eating spicy food.

TheCustomLime wrote:Da red wuns explode fasta! Da blues ones splode luckier, see?

An green is da best, 'cause green is orky!

Those gits on da Knormandee won't know what hit dem...