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TheCustomLime wrote:Those gits on da Knormandee won't know what hit dem...

"Orkz is da biggist and da strongest!"

One thing I kind of want to note, however, that could be a potential game-changer in this entire argument is that the OP did say that the Orks came into the ME universe.

Here's my question...do the Orks have to obey the laws of physics/science in the ME universe, or do we assume that they bring their rules with them? Just a thought on that.

Now...

Grand_Zamboa wrote:First thing to deal with. The Kinetic Barriers are not in any way magnetic fields. The are repulsive Mass Effect fields which are created by the increase or decreaser of mass over a given area not the introduction of electromagnetic fields. The creation of a gravitational sinkhole to deflect light based weaponry is possible, but the amount of power and the high levels of gravity you would need to bend a highly focussed beam of light like a GARDIAN laser would be extreme enough that it would be at least detrimental to the Reaper, not least because it would require that power be diverted from other systems. There is only so much power that one ship can generate.

And the Reapers, well, the numbers advantage, tens of thousands, is negated by the fact that the 40k universe possesses electromagnetic pulse weaponry which fries circuitry. They can create as many husks as they like, it doesn't help when their tech just stops working.
There's no evidence that the Reapers can control true AI. The Geth are called an AI, but ME also states that Legion wants to upload the Reaper Code to the Geth to achieve true intelligence, meaning that they are no fully AI to begin with.
In fact, EDI repulses the attempt by the Collector General to attack the Normandy during the Collector Ship mission and the general is controlled by Harbinger.

As for the possibility of harvesting Orks, the Protheans have shown that not all species are actually capable of becoming Reapers. Some are biologically incompatible. I'm not sure why, but there's a chance that the Orkz might not be able to become a Reaper. Despite that, the Reapers do appear to be made of the same material as the Relays and the only way to destroy those was with an asteroid drop.

Personally, I'd put the Reapers on ther same level as the canon Imperium of Man given how much tech was lost, but definitely not on the level of the Tyranids.

Like I said, I'll have to look up the ME field thing at home, but I do recall that the Codex stated about the ME field inducing a magnetic field to stop kinetic rounds...I will check it out, and if I'm wrong, I'm wrong...gimme a couple hours.

As for your EMP argument...it's not hard to harden electronic systems against an EMP (current day technology on military hardware succeeds in doing this). Now, considering that Reapers are biomechanical, not strictly mechanical, an EMP would potentially have a limited effect. Additionally, an EMP is difficult to create in the vacuum of space, as it relies on the ionization of particles to create the pulse (there are actually two sweet spots for nuclear weapons to create a strong EMP; a detonation near the surface, and a detonation in the Ionosphere, outside of those ranges, and the effect of a nuclear weapon's EMP is severly diminished). And if it were honestly that simple to bring down a Reaper, the races in the ME universe would have simply used low-yield nuclear weapons against the Reapers (since a lower yield nuclear weapon produces a stronger pulse than a higher one).

Addressing the AI part...it's somewhat arguable as to the effect the Reaper code would have on the Machine Spirits. True, the Reapers were not able to take control of EDI, but she was a unique case. Are the Machine Spirits self-aware? I would argue that maybe some are (I honestly haven't read up enough on the Machine Spirits of Titans, which would be the ones that I'd expect to have the highest chance of being self-aware), most are not, and could most likely be compared to a ME VI, not a true AI. I would say that the Reaper Code being able to infect the Geth would give it potential to cause serious harm to the IoM, and as I stated before, possibly Necron Warriors (which, as I understand, are merely mindless machines).

As for Reapers harvesting Orks...we honestly could go back and forth on this one all day...both sides have valid arguments as to why it would work or not. No sense in beating it to death, so I'd venture to say that's a stalemate.

As for your last statement, I'm assuming that you at least agree with me on the fact that the Reapers wouldn't just be brushed aside in the grimdark of 40k? I think they'd be like any of the races in 40k..if the others joined forces and unilaterally attacked, they'd be wiped out. And, honestly...I think the Reapers would fit pretty well into 40k...they seem pretty grimdark to me.

I think the Orks would be mauled fighting the Reapers, because the Reapers have good technology, troops and numbers. I don't think they would be exterminated by the end of ME3, but a lot of boyz are going to die. But, the Orks could and would hold their own against Systems Alliance Marines, Asari commandos, Turian Hierarchy troops and STG forces. It would be a long and devastating war of attrition, and I'd imagine the Citadel forces would come out on top, but the Orks would just come back again and again for more. Then there would be the problem of Ork infestations on any liberated colonies.

Has anyone taken the krogan into account? Whenever there's a problem that the citadel races can't handle they throw the krogan at it. It would just be a repeat of the rachni wars.

do you hear the voices to wrote:Has anyone taken the krogan into account? Whenever there's a problem that the citadel races can't handle they throw the krogan at it. It would just be a repeat of the rachni wars.

Except the Orks would eat the Rachni for lunch and rough the Krogan up for the lolz.

do you hear the voices to wrote:Has anyone taken the krogan into account? Whenever there's a problem that the citadel races can't handle they throw the krogan at it. It would just be a repeat of the rachni wars.

The Krogan are like ME's Orks...if it weren't for the Genophage, they'd be infesting the galaxy in much the same way as the Orks do in 40k

spectreoneone wrote:

do you hear the voices to wrote:Has anyone taken the krogan into account? Whenever there's a problem that the citadel races can't handle they throw the krogan at it. It would just be a repeat of the rachni wars.

The Krogan are like ME's Orks...if it weren't for the Genophage, they'd be infesting the galaxy in much the same way as the Orks do in 40k

Agreed, except they don't spread by spores and need to be raised from childhood. An Ork knows everything it needs already. I think.

I AM KROGAN!

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!

I would pay to see that!

Grand_Zamboa wrote:

spectreoneone wrote:

do you hear the voices to wrote:Has anyone taken the krogan into account? Whenever there's a problem that the citadel races can't handle they throw the krogan at it. It would just be a repeat of the rachni wars.

The Krogan are like ME's Orks...if it weren't for the Genophage, they'd be infesting the galaxy in much the same way as the Orks do in 40k

Agreed, except they don't spread by spores and need to be raised from childhood. An Ork knows everything it needs already. I think.

True, they don't spread by spores, but they reproduce quickly, and I'm fairly certain Krogan mature quickly.

ME Spoiler alert:

TheCustomLime wrote:I think the Orks would be mauled fighting the Reapers, because the Reapers have good technology, troops and numbers. I don't think they would be exterminated by the end of ME3, but a lot of boyz are going to die. But, the Orks could and would hold their own against Systems Alliance Marines, Asari commandos, Turian Hierarchy troops and STG forces. It would be a long and devastating war of attrition, and I'd imagine the Citadel forces would come out on top, but the Orks would just come back again and again for more. Then there would be the problem of Ork infestations on any liberated colonies.

You would be quite correct...if this was about feral Orks armed with bows/arrows, choppas, and pointy stikks. Space-borne Orks, not so much. Ork kroozers are generally (not always, since each ship is kustomized) the size of Imperial cruiser equivalents, which in turn easily dwarf Reapers (which Grand_Zamboa said they were 2km, though I thought they were 4km, but it remains true in either case) in the case of big ones and are at least the same size in the case of smaller or lighter vessels. God help them if one of the kroozers is built up to Imperial Battleship tonnage.

Technology: despite how it looks, Ork teknologee is not nearly as primitive as it looks. In fact, I'd be willing to say that it is nearly as advanced as Imperial tech. Not only that, the Orks don't simply know how to build it, the knowledge required is hardwired into their brains. From the moment they pop out of the ground, an Ork knows everything he needs to start gettin' stukk in wit da WAAAAGH! Ork tek is undeniably less reliable than the tech of any race, 40k or ME, but it is superior in technological level to most examples of ME tech.

Troops: Ork boyz alone can take dozens of lasgun bolts before going down, and pain for them is more exciting than debilitating. Nobz are big enough to take on a squad of Imperial infantry without even getting a scar (which would be quite a disappointment for the Nob in question), and Guardsmen are armed with more powerful weaponry than at least the non-Reaper races, though maybe just as strong as Collectors and other Reaper-affiliated soldiers. And da Warboss...well...he lived long enough to get that big for a good reason, and now he's got the size and strength in addition to whatever let him live that long. Biotics? Meet the Wierdboy.

Numbers: perhaps the Reapers would have an advantage here for a while. They do number in the thousands, after all. But the Orks have one thing going for them - they reproduce at a rate that puts rabbits to shame. Even counting losses, the moment a planet was infected with Ork spores, they'd start erupting from the ground fast enough to make up for losses with more than a little bonus. Numbers wouldn't be against the Orks for very long.

masterofThardus wrote:

TheCustomLime wrote:I think the Orks would be mauled fighting the Reapers, because the Reapers have good technology, troops and numbers. I don't think they would be exterminated by the end of ME3, but a lot of boyz are going to die. But, the Orks could and would hold their own against Systems Alliance Marines, Asari commandos, Turian Hierarchy troops and STG forces. It would be a long and devastating war of attrition, and I'd imagine the Citadel forces would come out on top, but the Orks would just come back again and again for more. Then there would be the problem of Ork infestations on any liberated colonies.

You would be quite correct...if this was about feral Orks armed with bows/arrows, choppas, and pointy stikks. Space-borne Orks, not so much. Ork kroozers are generally (not always, since each ship is kustomized) the size of Imperial cruiser equivalents, which in turn easily dwarf Reapers (which Grand_Zamboa said they were 2km, though I thought they were 4km, but it remains true in either case) in the case of big ones and are at least the same size in the case of smaller or lighter vessels. God help them if one of the kroozers is built up to Imperial Battleship tonnage.

Technology: despite how it looks, Ork teknologee is not nearly as primitive as it looks. In fact, I'd be willing to say that it is nearly as advanced as Imperial tech. Not only that, the Orks don't simply know how to build it, the knowledge required is hardwired into their brains. From the moment they pop out of the ground, an Ork knows everything he needs to start gettin' stukk in wit da WAAAAGH! Ork tek is undeniably less reliable than the tech of any race, 40k or ME, but it is superior in technological level to most examples of ME tech.

Troops: Ork boyz alone can take dozens of lasgun bolts before going down, and pain for them is more exciting than debilitating. Nobz are big enough to take on a squad of Imperial infantry without even getting a scar (which would be quite a disappointment for the Nob in question), and Guardsmen are armed with more powerful weaponry than at least the non-Reaper races, though maybe just as strong as Collectors and other Reaper-affiliated soldiers. And da Warboss...well...he lived long enough to get that big for a good reason, and now he's got the size and strength in addition to whatever let him live that long. Biotics? Meet the Wierdboy.

Numbers: perhaps the Reapers would have an advantage here for a while. They do number in the thousands, after all. But the Orks have one thing going for them - they reproduce at a rate that puts rabbits to shame. Even counting losses, the moment a planet was infected with Ork spores, they'd start erupting from the ground fast enough to make up for losses with more than a little bonus. Numbers wouldn't be against the Orks for very long.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Genestealer_Hybrid#Ork.2FGenestealer_Hybrids

To me the main deciding factor has not been covered. How big is the WAAAAGH!? Are we talking about a single Rok and a few ships? Or a dozen roks? or are we talking about a a major unseen event like the mobilization of most if not all orks in a Segmentum, well then the reapers and everyone else are well and truly screwed.

I think the kinetic barriers would be able to block energy weapons, actually.
Energy weapons, despite the name, are not actually pure energy.

Consider Lasers. Lasers work, quite simply by bombarding the target with intense light. This is made possible with photons, or light particles.
Ergo, as lasers use particles to inflict damage, and Kinetic Barriers are designed to block particles, I think they would offer some protection.

However, there is also the fact that light particles can act like a wave...not really sure if that would have an effect however :/

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I think the kinetic barriers would be able to block energy weapons, actually.
Energy weapons, despite the name, are not actually pure energy.

Consider Lasers. Lasers work, quite simply by bombarding the target with intense light. This is made possible with photons, or light particles.
Ergo, as lasers use particles to inflict damage, and Kinetic Barriers are designed to block particles, I think they would offer some protection.

However, there is also the fact that light particles can act like a wave...not really sure if that would have an effect however :/

Oh, not this again -_-

If KBs could block particles, the first Normandy wouldn't have been destroyed at the beginning of ME2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hunterindarkness wrote:To me the main deciding factor has not been covered. How big is the WAAAAGH!? Are we talking about a single Rok and a few ships? Or a dozen roks? or are we talking about a a major unseen event like the mobilization of most if not all orks in a Segmentum, well then the reapers and everyone else are well and truly screwed.

You're right, I never specified that :/

Let's say it's a bunch of roks and kroozers. Like the fleet that attacked the forge world in Space Marine.

Seriously though, I would put money on the average krogan to beat the average ork. It might take a couple krogan to beat a nob. As far as a warboss, that would be a rough fight, but hey, lets not forget that Urdnot Wrex single handedly killed a thresher maw. That has to count for something.

Grand_Zamboa wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I think the kinetic barriers would be able to block energy weapons, actually.
Energy weapons, despite the name, are not actually pure energy.

Consider Lasers. Lasers work, quite simply by bombarding the target with intense light. This is made possible with photons, or light particles.
Ergo, as lasers use particles to inflict damage, and Kinetic Barriers are designed to block particles, I think they would offer some protection.

However, there is also the fact that light particles can act like a wave...not really sure if that would have an effect however :/

Oh, not this again -_-

If KBs could block particles, the first Normandy wouldn't have been destroyed at the beginning of ME2.


.

If the KB fields didn't block energy weapons, why are they not wide spread?

I think the reapers would win out in the end. They are like old school necrons; they specialize in genocide.

I think the Orks could probably tie up less populous factions like the Alliance and Turians for years in ground warfare through sheer numbers. For that reason I think that the main threats to Orks would be the Krogan (assuming no Genophage) and possibly the Rachni.

Orks vs Krogan would probably end up as a Kryptmann Gambit-like situation - if the Orks won, you'd end up with some of the hardest Ork veterans around. Boyz would be more like Nobz and Warbosses would be colossal with plenty of experience and loyal followers. A big advantage would go to whichever side could replenish their numbers faster. Orks would surely have the edge in some areas, such as having teleportation and being able to use Titan-sized war machines (and now I'm imagining a Gargant vs a Reaper).

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Grand_Zamboa wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I think the kinetic barriers would be able to block energy weapons, actually.
Energy weapons, despite the name, are not actually pure energy.

Consider Lasers. Lasers work, quite simply by bombarding the target with intense light. This is made possible with photons, or light particles.
Ergo, as lasers use particles to inflict damage, and Kinetic Barriers are designed to block particles, I think they would offer some protection.

However, there is also the fact that light particles can act like a wave...not really sure if that would have an effect however :/

Oh, not this again -_-

If KBs could block particles, the first Normandy wouldn't have been destroyed at the beginning of ME2.


.

If the KB fields didn't block energy weapons, why are they not wide spread?

I think the reapers would win out in the end. They are like old school necrons; they specialize in genocide.

I don't think I understand the first statement. :/

Unit1126PLL wrote:
b. Depending on your fluff source, orks may not even have neurons.
d. Again, the existence of neurons in the Orkoid species is questionable at best.

How's this for a source?

4E Ork Codex, p. 58 Ghazghkull codex entry:

"During a raid on a Space Marine command sanctum, Ghazghkull caught a bolter shell in the face that pulped a large area of his cranium and caused extensive brain damage. A Deathskull Painboy called Mad Dok Grotsnik was close to hand, and replaced part of Ghazghkull's cerebellum with bioniks made from adamantium."

Grand_Zamboa wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Grand_Zamboa wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I think the kinetic barriers would be able to block energy weapons, actually.
Energy weapons, despite the name, are not actually pure energy.

Consider Lasers. Lasers work, quite simply by bombarding the target with intense light. This is made possible with photons, or light particles.
Ergo, as lasers use particles to inflict damage, and Kinetic Barriers are designed to block particles, I think they would offer some protection.

However, there is also the fact that light particles can act like a wave...not really sure if that would have an effect however :/

Oh, not this again -_-

If KBs could block particles, the first Normandy wouldn't have been destroyed at the beginning of ME2.


.

If the KB fields didn't block energy weapons, why are they not wide spread?

I think the reapers would win out in the end. They are like old school necrons; they specialize in genocide.

I don't think I understand the first statement. :/

Ai, its very complicated physics. Its very weird too.
Light is both a particle and a wave. Therefore when light hits something it could be seen as having a kinetic effect.
I think an example of this could be seen with microwaves. Light in the microwave range of radiation can actually cause some atoms to spin which do...something.
As I said, its weird :/

Green ending = Ork wins.

So, after checking out the KB magnetic field issue, I admit I was confusing two different mechanisms in the ME universe. Fortification uses the magnetic fields to stop metallic projectiles, shrapnel, etc. through the use of superconduction. KBs and Fortification can be used in concert, which is why I got confused. Tech armor, which is another application of ME fields actually traps a warp field inbetween two ME fields in order to protect the user.

CthululsSpy, a KB itself wouldn't stop a light energy based weapon, as the nature of light, be it particle or wave, would pass right through the unseen KB field. Now, as I've stated before, you could use an ME field to create a gravitational well to deflect an energy weapon, much like how a black hole or neutron star bends light due to their intense gravitational fields.

Mordin would go crazy if he ever got his hand on an Ork example.

masterofThardus wrote:

TheCustomLime wrote:I think the Orks would be mauled fighting the Reapers, because the Reapers have good technology, troops and numbers. I don't think they would be exterminated by the end of ME3, but a lot of boyz are going to die. But, the Orks could and would hold their own against Systems Alliance Marines, Asari commandos, Turian Hierarchy troops and STG forces. It would be a long and devastating war of attrition, and I'd imagine the Citadel forces would come out on top, but the Orks would just come back again and again for more. Then there would be the problem of Ork infestations on any liberated colonies.

You would be quite correct...if this was about feral Orks armed with bows/arrows, choppas, and pointy stikks. Space-borne Orks, not so much. Ork kroozers are generally (not always, since each ship is kustomized) the size of Imperial cruiser equivalents, which in turn easily dwarf Reapers (which Grand_Zamboa said they were 2km, though I thought they were 4km, but it remains true in either case) in the case of big ones and are at least the same size in the case of smaller or lighter vessels. God help them if one of the kroozers is built up to Imperial Battleship tonnage.

Technology: despite how it looks, Ork teknologee is not nearly as primitive as it looks. In fact, I'd be willing to say that it is nearly as advanced as Imperial tech. Not only that, the Orks don't simply know how to build it, the knowledge required is hardwired into their brains. From the moment they pop out of the ground, an Ork knows everything he needs to start gettin' stukk in wit da WAAAAGH! Ork tek is undeniably less reliable than the tech of any race, 40k or ME, but it is superior in technological level to most examples of ME tech.

Troops: Ork boyz alone can take dozens of lasgun bolts before going down, and pain for them is more exciting than debilitating. Nobz are big enough to take on a squad of Imperial infantry without even getting a scar (which would be quite a disappointment for the Nob in question), and Guardsmen are armed with more powerful weaponry than at least the non-Reaper races, though maybe just as strong as Collectors and other Reaper-affiliated soldiers. And da Warboss...well...he lived long enough to get that big for a good reason, and now he's got the size and strength in addition to whatever let him live that long. Biotics? Meet the Wierdboy.

Numbers: perhaps the Reapers would have an advantage here for a while. They do number in the thousands, after all. But the Orks have one thing going for them - they reproduce at a rate that puts rabbits to shame. Even counting losses, the moment a planet was infected with Ork spores, they'd start erupting from the ground fast enough to make up for losses with more than a little bonus. Numbers wouldn't be against the Orks for very long.

You are right, sir. I did aknowledge the good points of Orks earlier, but I think that because they aren't as well established they would take heavy hits. At first. Eventually, I'd imagine, that there would be an inverse relationship between the military strengths of the Citadel races and the boyz as they became more entrenched. As in, getting some worlds to reproduce on, getting more bitz to make stuff etc.

Just what are KB's exactly? I am a bit uncertain of their nature.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Just what are KB's exactly? I am a bit uncertain of their nature.

A shield that protect against projectiles, but not against energy weapons.

Grand_Zamboa wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Just what are KB's exactly? I am a bit uncertain of their nature.

A shield that protect against projectiles, but not against energy weapons.

Yeah, I need a bit more than that. How does it protect against only projectiles? Why does it have no effect on "energy" weapons?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Grand_Zamboa wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Just what are KB's exactly? I am a bit uncertain of their nature.

A shield that protect against projectiles, but not against energy weapons.

Yeah, I need a bit more than that. How does it protect against only projectiles? Why does it have no effect on "energy" weapons?

It was explained in this discussion. Page 2, I think.

Anyway, I think orks will actually end up winning.

Scenario 1 : They stomp Mass Effect. They win

Scenario 2: They get stomped by Mass Effect. But since it was one hell of a fight, they still win. An Ork loves nothing more than a good fight, even if its a losing one. Just look at Tuska.