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I'm not quite sure what you mean by tone, Bla_Ze. Any tone that you get from text is purely inference.

I'm dismayed at your response, especially given the fact that this thread's responses started out somewhat negative and then became more constructive. Why not just leave it at that, or at least make a more enlightened contribution?

I'm not interested in making a big deal out of it, and as a mental health professional, I take my own internal process very seriously and try to stay aware of my own projections. I can assure you that they have little to do with this conversation. My goal here was to A) get some more information regarding the culture surround a game in which I was interested and B) encouraging a dialogue about implicit gender politics in said culture.

Dismissing my thread as feminist ranting is not productive to this discussion. I'd encourage you to do some research on the notion of male privilege, and consider how it may be affecting your own thought process. Thanks!

This seems to be making issues out of nothing if I am honest.

Feldenglas wrote:Honestly, this slogan is keeping me away from WM/H, due to the implications of casual misogyny. Does Privateer ever address this? As a company, have they ever made a statement welcoming female players, or clarifying the fact that they're aware of the gender politics behind making this statement their system's core ethic?

Excuse me, please take your male dominated inferences else where.

While you don't think "man up" is offensive, in this world where machismo is a problem, I do. What is wrong with you and why do you hate women? Why must everything be so male-centric with you? Is this patriarchal society not enough for you? Please, lets pretend everything is about men and their testicles so it can be a more pleasant world for you.

It's remarkable what a hard time some people have with what really doesn't need to be a threatening topic.

If that one statement is proving such a problem for you, and gives you that the idea that PP need to apologise or something to women in general, "playing like you have a pair" might be a little beyond you .

Bullockist wrote:If that one statement is proving such a problem for you, and gives you that the idea that PP need to apologise or something to women in general, "playing like you have a pair" might be a little beyond you .

Totally OT, but I don't think I've ever been sigged! Awesome!

Feldenglas wrote:It's remarkable what a hard time some people have with what really doesn't need to be a threatening topic.

You are making this about gender, and that puts people off.

And come on, male privilege? Thats something butthurt feminnists with a inferiority complex contrived.

Please, if you want to call me a chauvinist pig please do it in plain writing.

This thread is an amusing insight towards people that play Warmahordes.

Warmahordes players got defensive when someone asked an innocent question. They even had the audacity to call him a troll when he was just curious.

And then there's Bla_Ze with tits as an avatar, sluts as a sig, and feminist-bashing in the post. Epitome of classiness right there.

---

It's simple. "Play like you've got a pair" is somewhat sexist, but it's simply tasteless. Regardless, it's not the main point of Warmahordes. It's just a single marketing phrase meant to whore for attention.

It got your attention. Now you're curious about Warmahordes, yes?

Privateer Press appreciates your attention.

A simple Google search shows many instances of people being annoyed at this tasteless marketing. It even shows examples of Press Gangers with the attitude that Bla_Ze is showing:
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=26145
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?332220-What-is-it-about-Warmachine-Hordes-that-you-don-t-like

When Rackham tried to rebrand itself by insulting people that didn't play their prepainted game, people told them to feth off. When Privateer Press says only sissy girls don't play this game, fanboys will defend them.

Don't get discouraged Feldenglas. Warmahordes isn't a bad game, and the ruleset is rather innocent. It's the fanbase that is just awful.

Bla_Ze wrote:

Feldenglas wrote:
I don't believe that PP's statement is against women, nor do I believe that they don't want women playing their games.

Then why not just leave it at that? Unless you want to make a big deal out of it?
Starting a thread with the tone you have, seems to me like you are baiting for a war.

This is some serious projecting, and sounds more like a feminist rant than an attempt at serious discussion

This is exactly the thoughts that came to mind after reading this thread.

I agree with the OP, "Play Like You've Got a Pair" is casual misogyny, and pretty low-class on the part of privateer press.

There's a clear division between creating a fictional world of testosterone-laden sci-fi warriors used as a game setting and instructing non-fictional players that they should "play like men."

It is a low-level offense, and may not bother a lot of people. But just because it "doesn't bother my female friends", that doesn't make it not misogynistic.

Its a marketing slogan... just chill out...

Absolutionis wrote:This thread is an amusing insight towards people that play Warmahordes.

Warmahordes players got defensive when someone asked an innocent question. They even had the audacity to call him a troll when he was just curious.

And then there's Bla_Ze with tits as an avatar, sluts as a sig, and feminist-bashing in the post. Epitome of classiness right there.

You have a mass murderer as an avatar, whats your point? Calling lightly dressed females "sluts" is quite sexist.
I simply reacted to the biased tone in the OP.

Absolutionis wrote:
A simple Google search shows many instances of people being annoyed at this tasteless marketing. It even shows examples of Press Gangers with the attitude that Bla_Ze is showing:
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=26145
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?332220-What-is-it-about-Warmachine-Hordes-that-you-don-t-like

When Rackham tried to rebrand itself by insulting people that didn't play their prepainted game, people told them to feth off. When Privateer Press says only sissy girls don't play this game, fanboys will defend them.

Don't get discouraged Feldenglas. Warmahordes isn't a bad game, and the ruleset is rather innocent. It's the fanbase that is just awful.

Sorry to disappoint. but i have never played "Warmahordes" and never will.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Its a marketing slogan... just chill out...

Dude, it's the internet. No one is that worked up about anything, we're just arguing to kill time.

Absolutionis wrote:
Don't get discouraged Feldenglas. Warmahordes isn't a bad game, and the ruleset is rather innocent. It's the fanbase that is just awful.

Seriously?

Hey, let's take a look at a game you apparently enjoy - Infinity. One of the more popular threads on the Infinity Forums is the 'Comic Strips' thread in the art subforum.

Let's pull out an example:



And there are plenty more were that comes from, with lots of encouragement from the community. Not to mention the fact that almost every female model in the Infinity line is pretty damned good looking with form-fitting armor.

Look, I don't deny that there's a definite anti-female streak in wargaming. That's what happens when something's been male-dominated for so long. But trying to pick and choose examples is stupid.

It's not the game that stops people playing it here.

It's the players. The game isn't bad - you can definitely tell it was written by Americans FOR Americans, though.

It's all about fastest and most brutal caster kills at tourneys. Not about the gameplay.

@Infinite_array: Yes, but that strip was done by a euro pervert and the humour it is supposed to contain is hiding somewhere as I've not been able to find it.

infinite_array wrote:

Look, I don't deny that there's a definite anti-female streak in wargaming. That's what happens when something's been male-dominated for so long. But trying to pick and choose examples is stupid.

I have never encountered something like this? Maybe its a american thing? Sure, the talk can be a bit "macho" since were talking about young kids in their teens with raging hormones and the likes, but anti-female? That just blows my mind.

Bla_Ze wrote:

infinite_array wrote:

Look, I don't deny that there's a definite anti-female streak in wargaming. That's what happens when something's been male-dominated for so long. But trying to pick and choose examples is stupid.

I have never encountered something like this? Maybe its a american thing? Sure, the talk can be a bit "macho" since were talking about young kids in their teens with raging hormones and the likes, but anti-female? That just blows my mind.

I... you...

infinite_array wrote:

Spoiler:

And there are plenty more were that comes from, with lots of encouragement from the community. Not to mention the fact that almost every female model in the Infinity line is pretty damned good looking with form-fitting armor.

Look, I don't deny that there's a definite anti-female streak in wargaming. That's what happens when something's been male-dominated for so long. But trying to pick and choose examples is stupid

I've honestly never seen that comic strip before. Just because it's associated with a group I associate with doesn't mean I enjoy it. It also doesn't make it right.
It also really doesn't appeal to my American-minded humor either, I guess.

Regardless, the Warmahordes sexism itself isn't what I'm complaining about.

It's their overdefensive nature. The mildest complaint about Warmahordes or PP is seen as an attack and suddenly people bring out the anti-GW artillery. I guess in this case you felt like bringing out the anti-Infinity stuff too. A new guy pops up and questions something regarding Warmahordes in really the most innocent way. Apologetics jump on the case with both GW-bashing and attacking the poster by calling him a troll.

Two wrongs don't make a right, etc. You know the drill.

Well, here's the thing.

The OP came in and started making accusations against PP when he hadn't even gone as far as to read the source material of what he was making claims against. I wouldn't call that 'innocent' in any way. That's ignorance. (But I don't want to seem as though I'm attacking the OP. Let him go back to the store, pick up one of the newest books (mk. II, Wrath or Domination), and actually read Page 5 in its entirety. People who don't understand Page 5 (and this is in general and not only speaking about some sort of 'casual misogyny') shouldn't be playing Warmachine/Hordes in the first place. And there are even some cases - like me, for example - who understand Page 5, appreciate its message, but have decided that the game's just not for them.)

So, when a person comes in and starts to claim that something you enjoy is misogynistic and, by extension, so are the players, and people like you begin to insult the fanbase, they aren't allowed to defend themselves?

And the reason for bringing 40k into the conversation is obvious. You can't make such accusations against PP, its games, and its playerbase without looking at one of the largest and most visibly-obvious wargames in the market, especially when the OP is a player of said game, and those same problems exist in that company, games, and playerbase as well.

"casual misogyny"? Really?
By the gods- its just something one guy said to another once that has gained meaning and a place in the language beyond mearly reference the size of a persons genitals....
It's not part of some over arching patriarchal scheme or unspoken bias.
It's just a phrase, granted one largely used by men.

Grrrrr....academic feminism really irks the bejesus out of me, it's screwed up scholarship every bit as much as the very real patriarchal bias that proceeded it.
Just for a good example lets look at my particular field of study- anthropology- and the feminist theory that emerged in it in the 1960's & 70's.
I'll grant you that for quite a while most anthro theories had definite bias towards men being responsible for all societal advance ment...the inteligent reponse to this is not to engage in the academic equivalent screaming " NUH UH! IT WAS ALL WOMEN! WE INVENTED ALL THE GOOD THINGS MEN JUST KILL PPL!" instead of the much more reasonable "Woman probably played in the development of language and culture as great as that of men".
Seriously, the feminist anthro writing from the period, while dressed up in academic jargon, is about that bad, and often ignores reams of contridictory evidence (as its from the patriarchy, you see).
Academic feminists reacted to a very real, and very damaging, devauling of the female that took place over millenia, with a counter reaction devaluing the male. It's left such a mark on our society that we can even mention our genitalia in a phrase with out it being supect. But just because what they reacted to was awful, does not mean that they, also, can't be just as awful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also pointing out that 40k player might have a little pot-kettle-black thing going on in this thread is leggit

I mean, the only way a woman gets to kick a little rear in the 40k universe is to become a desexed nun who worships a man? I mean seriously, even I could write a paper on the misogynist implications of that
(I should note that I actually like that the imperium is a bit misogynistic- its supposed to be a bit backwards, dogmatic, and controling, so it kind of fits the fluff and theme to be honest.)

Feldenglas wrote:There's a lot of gender bias in our hobby in general, and I'm familiar with how it presents itself in the GW community. I hear the 'R' word get tossed around casually in a lot of games to describe bad things that happen to squads and vehicles, and it offends me on a personal level, and frankly I wish people would stop using it that way.

What is the "R" word?



EDIT: Damn you, Infinite_Array, you ninja'd me on something hilarious!

azazel the cat wrote:

Feldenglas wrote:There's a lot of gender bias in our hobby in general, and I'm familiar with how it presents itself in the GW community. I hear the 'R' word get tossed around casually in a lot of games to describe bad things that happen to squads and vehicles, and it offends me on a personal level, and frankly I wish people would stop using it that way.

What is the "R" word?



EDIT: Damn you, Infinite_Array, you ninja'd me on something hilarious!

Maybe racism? I dunno. As someone who is Hispanic, my local game store tends to be..well..rife with racism in the game

Feldenglas wrote:Honestly, this slogan is keeping me away from WM/H, due to the implications of casual misogyny. Does Privateer ever address this? As a company, have they ever made a statement welcoming female players, or clarifying the fact that they're aware of the gender politics behind making this statement their system's core ethic?

Why are you making this political and over analyzed? If you really want to get down to the nitty gritty details, testosterone is produced by the testies and to a much lesser extent the ovaries (and vice versa for estrogen). Testosterone tends to lead to more aggressive behaviors. Warmahordes is a game that heavily favors aggression in strategy, tactics and list building. It will not apologize for you not doing your best to grab at victory, and will not act motherly and coddle you. It will, however, kick your teeth in and take 1st place, leaving you in a fetal position in dead last. This is the aggressive behaviors it believes in. These sorts of behaviors are typified as male.

I'm not really sure why you approached the topic in the way you did because you said later that you do not believe that sexism was their intent. But with your opening statements you said things that heavily implied that you accused them of sexism. If you really do feel that way about them, good. Don't play, don't collect, don't patronize. Being offended is better than labeling words or phrases as bad or offensive and never be used again. If you were wondering why you were being attacked, it was because the OP comes off as a bit holier than thou, snide attitude and indirectly attacking those who play as misogynists. A lot of these can be read from presumptuous questions such as asking for what amounts to an apology to females and also the use of buzz words such as "gender politics" and "core ethic" are sure fire to draw different emotions due to how vaguely they are defined.

azazel the cat wrote:

Feldenglas wrote:There's a lot of gender bias in our hobby in general, and I'm familiar with how it presents itself in the GW community. I hear the 'R' word get tossed around casually in a lot of games to describe bad things that happen to squads and vehicles, and it offends me on a personal level, and frankly I wish people would stop using it that way.

What is the "R" word?



EDIT: Damn you, Infinite_Array, you ninja'd me on something hilarious!

I would guess the word is "slowed". As someone who has mentally handicapped relatives, people who throw a fit over a word like that are slowed. Saying the word doesn't mean you are making fun of those who suffer some mental disorder or challenge. The word has a definition, and a single word does not define an entire people. If anything, I'm offended on behalf of those who can't defend themselves against people who insist that the word "slowed" categorizes them in some negative light. If the word means something derogatory then I'm sure no one wants to be associated with it. I for one don't call mentally handicapped people "slowed" because it is offensive. To call them such is in itself slowed.

I'm 50/50 on getting suspended for this, but it's worth the risk.

EDIT: Holy fething hell Dakka, really? We can't even USE the "R" word here? Are we children that we need to be censored from words?

I dont believe it.

But I agree with Absolutionis in this case. PP fans being overly-defensive.

everyone should just chill

and actually READ Page 5 for feth's sake.

Feldenglas wrote:Honestly, this slogan is keeping me away from WM/H, due to the implications of casual misogyny. Does Privateer ever address this? As a company, have they ever made a statement welcoming female players, or clarifying the fact that they're aware of the gender politics behind making this statement their system's core ethic?

Sorry. Warmahordes; very much like Yorkie bars, are not for girls.





[Antijokechicken]That was a joke.[/Antijokechicken]

ShatteredBlade wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:

Feldenglas wrote:There's a lot of gender bias in our hobby in general, and I'm familiar with how it presents itself in the GW community. I hear the 'R' word get tossed around casually in a lot of games to describe bad things that happen to squads and vehicles, and it offends me on a personal level, and frankly I wish people would stop using it that way.

What is the "R" word?



EDIT: Damn you, Infinite_Array, you ninja'd me on something hilarious!

Maybe racism? I dunno. As someone who is Hispanic, my local game store tends to be..well..rife with racism in the game

I don't think there's any racism directy within 40k, however there sure is a tremendous allegory for it. (purge the Xenos scum, etc) In any case, that sucks to hear about your FLGS. But I don't think the OP was referring to "racism" being the "R" word. Otherwise, why not just say "racism". It must be a word that the OP is afraid of.

Aerethan wrote:I would guess the word is "slowed". As someone who has mentally handicapped relatives, people who throw a fit over a word like that are slowed. Saying the word doesn't mean you are making fun of those who suffer some mental disorder or challenge. The word has a definition, and a single word does not define an entire people. If anything, I'm offended on behalf of those who can't defend themselves against people who insist that the word "slowed" categorizes them in some negative light. If the word means something derogatory then I'm sure no one wants to be associated with it. I for one don't call mentally handicapped people "slowed" because it is offensive. To call them such is in itself slowed.

I'm 50/50 on getting suspended for this, but it's worth the risk.

EDIT: Holy fething hell Dakka, really? We can't even USE the "R" word here? Are we children that we need to be censored from words?

It's possible that the OP means "slowed" by saying the "R" word, but all of a sudden, I suspect that the OP means for the "R" word to mean "rape".

Why the OP cannot bring herself (I'm assuming gender here, and ask your forgiveness if I'm incorrect) to speak the word "rape", I cannot say. Nor do I understand how someone can be offended by the word, "rape", or assume gender from it. And I'm certain that there will be an obvious retort about how most rapes are men raping women, and thus I feel the need to pre-emptively address this:

Rape is not gender-specific nor is it gender-biased. I'm well aware that in the free population, women are ten times as likely to suffer rape than men. However, this figure tends to be skewed because statutory rapes are a part of that number. Additionally, men in US prisons have reported as high as 28% being victims of rape (not the statutory kind), and keep in mind that this is the reported number, in a field with an astronomically high dark figure. So, in conclusion, try not to be offended by the term "rape". It's a word. Deal with it, because it has multiple meanings, including:

An act of plunder & despoilation = "raping the countryside" (please note that most applications to 40k, other than Fiends of Slaanesh, will likely be using this definition)
A plant = "rape oil comes from a mustard plant"
A grape husk = "now that we've stomped the juice out, we have to throw away the rape"

However, if I'm completely wrong, and "rape" is not your "R" word, then please forgive my tirade and assumptions.

gunslingerpro wrote:But in truth, the page is about playing hard. They're trying to encourage an offensive blitz, not a defensive standoff.

It's a bit telling that Privateer feels like they have the right to tell people how their game is to be played. Personally, if anyone ever tries telling me off for playing like I want to play based on that stupid little manifesto, I'd simply quote the late Rage Against the Machine: "**** *** I won't do what you tell me".

Winning is what matters. If the way to win is to dodge everything my opponent throws at me instead of charging into the fray, that's what I'll do. You want me to play aggressively? Make me, then, instead of declaring it by fiat.

Aerethan wrote:EDIT: Holy fething hell Dakka, really? We can't even USE the "R" word here? Are we children that we need to be censored from words?

Judging from the amount of flamewars and other crap we keep having, YES.

There is nothing offensive about the statement. Off-topic, I dont like a majority of Models done by PP, that is why I do not play Warmachine.

Agamemnon2 wrote:
It's a bit telling that Privateer feels like they have the right to tell people how their game is to be played. Personally, if anyone ever tries telling me off for playing like I want to play based on that stupid little manifesto, I'd simply quote the late Rage Against the Machine: "**** *** I won't do what you tell me".

Winning is what matters. If the way to win is to dodge everything my opponent throws at me instead of charging into the fray, that's what I'll do. You want me to play aggressively? Make me, then, instead of declaring it by fiat.

I wonder, if in fact, you play the game. Scenario wise, your strategy works well about 50% of the time. I would say that most scenarios and game types, however, require a fair amount of aggressive action to secure victory. This is, in fact, how they are making you play aggressively. They're not telling you how to play, they are telling you how to win

I also notice that a majority of your posts are negative regarding the company and the recent directions it's taken. That is your decision, and I respect that. But I think your vitriol in the matter has somewhat blunted your argument.

Absolutionis wrote:This thread is an amusing insight towards people that play Warmahordes.

Warmahordes players got defensive when someone asked an innocent question. They even had the audacity to call him a troll when he was just curious.

*snip*

Don't get discouraged Feldenglas. Warmahordes isn't a bad game, and the ruleset is rather innocent. It's the fanbase that is just awful.

Making broad, sweeping generalization about a group of people? And you wonder why they get so defensive so fast.