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Howard A Treesong wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:
Tell me which one seems a more likely allegory coming from across a miniatures table:

A: I'm going to stomp you into pulp!

B: I'm going to despoil your entire army!

C: I'm going to forcibly engage in sexual intercourse with you!

You're being wilfully obtuse. I know the phrase is being used to impart how much of a defeat you are about to receive. But it has a far more obvious and meaningful everyday usage. My point is that it's extremely unpleasant language which is likely to upset. Perhaps you are one of these people who think it's okay to call others or their armies 'slowed' in place of just saying you think they are bad? I mean it's just an allegory, it's not as if you actually are alluding to them having some sort of mental condition are you? My further point what that rape is a fairly emotive subject, and throwing around that sort of language you defend is likely to upset someone who has any experience with it, which isn't actually a small number of people, and you can't possibly tell who they are by looking at them.

I assume you have the sense to not say to someone in a wheelchair "your tactics are completely slowed". So why are you happy talking about how badly people are going to be raped today when you don't know who might be upset by such conversation?

Indeed. I have dealt with women who have suffered that for real and it's not fun or pleasant. I also train people in self defense (of various levels of lethality varying from locks and takedowns to blowing the bastard's brains out) to avoid from having to suffer that as well as other crimes. Only an idiot would try to trivialize something like this.

Also, for the barely literate in this thread, feminism is actually just a movement for equality between men and women.

There is male privilege going on all around and if you can't see it, it's pretty much the same reason you are still a virgin. The other reason is because you scream rape at your opponents without understanding the rape statistics for women is something like 1 in 6 women have suffered sexual assault. Yep, talking about a violent act that brings up something she may have suffered is a big turn off!

The OP may be a bit up tight (or a successful troll) but there is a bunch of misogyny flowing in this thread.

I honestly haven't heard anyone in real life use the term "rape" as a euphemism for "utterly defeated" since I left high school. Anyone who does use said term is... pretty bad. I generally don't play against people who are under 18 anyway.

As for the "Play Like You Got A Pair".... it's a silly marketing slogan and I don't know anyone of any gender who decided not to play Warmachine because of it.

Nobody is trivializing rape. Language constantly evolves and rape is a term that has developed multiple meanings, like so many other words. Some people need to really work on having a thicker skin if the mere mention of a word in certain context can set them off.

Howard A Treesong wrote:You're being wilfully obtuse. I know the phrase is being used to impart how much of a defeat you are about to receive. But it has a far more obvious and meaningful everyday usage. My point is that it's extremely unpleasant language which is likely to upset. Perhaps you are one of these people who think it's okay to call others or their armies 'slowed' in place of just saying you think they are bad? I mean it's just an allegory, it's not as if you actually are alluding to them having some sort of mental condition are you? My further point what that rape is a fairly emotive subject, and throwing around that sort of language you defend is likely to upset someone who has any experience with it, which isn't actually a small number of people, and you can't possibly tell who they are by looking at them.

I assume you have the sense to not say to someone in a wheelchair "your tactics are completely slowed". So why are you happy talking about how badly people are going to be raped today when you don't know who might be upset by such conversation?

Personally, I am one of those people who think it's not okay to call others or their armies 'slowed' in place of just saying that I think they are bad. (I don't even do that, honestly. I'm the 'nice guy' at the tables, because, why not?) And I have the good sense to not say to someone in a wheelchair that "their tactics are completely slowed" because it likely doesn't apply. However, the wheelchair has nothing to do with it, so I have no idea why you even qualified it in your example, except to demonstrate a somewhat pitying attitude towards the handicapped.

Anyway, my reluctance to use the term "slowed" is not because I have a problem with the term, but because I tend to choose my words carefully, so if I use the word "retard3d", I am likely referring to someone who has slow or limited intellectual development. And this is not "extremely unpleasant language which is likely to upset"; this is an example of using the correct term, which is not a pejorative in that it is meant to be disparaging. It's just calling a spade a spade.

Anyone upset by that word should really examine why they are upset by it. I'd guess that anyone upset by the use of a correct term is upset because they know someone who is slowed, and dislike to be reminded of such. However, those people need to get over it. Yes, it's a crummy situation, but never thinking about it doesn't make it go away. In the meantime, all that is being accomplished is that a useful word for describing a specific circumstance is being unfairly granted power as a pejorative, and then being replaced by more ambiguous and hollow phrases.

The same goes for "rape". If anyone is offended by the term, it's likely because they -or someone they know- was the victim of rape. Thats unfortunate, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone except for Rhonda Byrne (a seperate tirade). However, just as with "slowed", never speaking the word doesn't mean that it doesn't or hasn't happened, and sooner or later the victims of such will have to get over it. And I don't say that casually; I simply mean that attempting to re-shape the world so that a valid descriptor no longer exists to remind one of a negative experience is not a viable nor a reasonable option.

the_trooper wrote:Also, for the barely literate in this thread, feminism is actually just a movement for equality between men and women.

There is male privilege going on all around and if you can't see it, it's pretty much the same reason you are still a virgin. The other reason is because you scream rape at your opponents without understanding the rape statistics for women is something like 1 in 6 women have suffered sexual assault. Yep, talking about a violent act that brings up something she may have suffered is a big turn off!

The OP may be a bit up tight (or a successful troll) but there is a bunch of misogyny flowing in this thread.

1st of all, excuse me from jumping into this thread but:

a) going of this 2 websites: http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/frequency-of-sexual-assault
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

The actual percentage of women's raped is of 0.001 still 0.001 more than it should be but nowhere near the 1 in 6 you were talking about.

b) For your information language is constantly evolving and word such as "rape" have acquired additional meanings apart from the original one in certain areas, I'm sorry if it bothers certain people but it is sometimes used by people that don't understand at all the "damage" they are/could be causing as they see it as a regular word, instead of jumping and accusing somebody of "misogyny" you would be better off trying to explain why that word can be considered offensive.

Yes, rape victims should grow thicker skin.

Also, it is hilarious to wish rape upon people.

Is there anything I missed?

No. Its only developed multiple meanings among slathering mouthbreathers who don't have a clue about common courtesy, manners, or pretty much anything (teenagers I am looking at you). Make such asinine statements at work and, well you won't be working.

jgehunter wrote:

the_trooper wrote:Also, for the barely literate in this thread, feminism is actually just a movement for equality between men and women.

There is male privilege going on all around and if you can't see it, it's pretty much the same reason you are still a virgin. The other reason is because you scream rape at your opponents without understanding the rape statistics for women is something like 1 in 6 women have suffered sexual assault. Yep, talking about a violent act that brings up something she may have suffered is a big turn off!

The OP may be a bit up tight (or a successful troll) but there is a bunch of misogyny flowing in this thread.

1st of all, excuse me from jumping into this thread but:

a) going of this 2 websites: http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/frequency-of-sexual-assault
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

The actual percentage of women's raped is of 0.001 still 0.001 more than it should be but nowhere near the 1 in 6 you were talking about.

http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims

LOLWUT

1 out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime (14.8% completed rape; 2.8% attempted rape).1

Do you know what assault is?

EDIT:

Or did you not look at all the statistics?

EDIT2:

What did the census link have to do with anything?

the_trooper wrote:[
Do you know what assault is?

Ok... I'll have to say it...I derped

I thought a sexual assault was the same as rape though, I'm genuinely sorry

jgehunter wrote:The actual percentage of women's raped is of 0.001 still 0.001 more than it should be but nowhere near the 1 in 6 you were talking about.

Those numbers are not accurate. Keep in mind that this particular event has a massive dark figure associated with it, and it is much higher than you think. However, it's not 1 in 6.

Frazzled wrote:No. Its only developed multiple meanings among slathering mouthbreathers who don't have a clue about common courtesy, manners, or pretty much anything (teenagers I am looking at you). Make such asinine statements at work and, well you won't be working.

Your condescension is of a flavour that usually only comes from people who believe that mother-knows-best by virtue of nothing other than that they have children. So you are either trolling very, very well or else you are blindingly ignorant of how language evolves.

Raatcharch wrote:

Fezman wrote:I don't agree that his is misogyny - remember that misogyny means hatred of women, and I'm not seeing any hate here.

The root words might directly translate to hatred of women, but everyone using the word knows that it means "bias against women" in our modern usage. Suggesting that misogyny means "hatred of women" is just being pedantic to win technicality points.

This message paid for by the Council to Improve Internet Arguments.

No. Look up misogyny in any dictionary. If you wanted to point out that something was biased against women without being misogynistic a word such as "sexist" is much more apposite. Misogyny has connotations of hatred. Anyway, it's hardly worth arguing about.

Moving on from that, to make this post more on-topic, I would guess that rather than setting out to offend PP probably hoped that this might be adopted by the fanbase as a kind of informal tagline or players' catachphrase for their game with the hope of giving it a reputation for being fast-paced or aggressive or whatever. I'd still feel a faint sense of embarrassment if someone said it to me during a game, however.

helium42 wrote:Nobody is trivializing rape. Language constantly evolves and rape is a term that has developed multiple meanings, like so many other words. Some people need to really work on having a thicker skin if the mere mention of a word in certain context can set them off.

Be in a room with a woman who's suffered that and some frat kid shouts "I just raped your ass!!!" in the middle of a game store. See how that works out. Yeah, she needs the thicker skin to deal with how she was violated.

Better yet, walk in to the hood and scream out a series of n-bombs and see how long you live. That word has developed multiple meanings after all too.

the_trooper wrote:Also, for the barely literate in this thread, feminism is actually just a movement for equality between men and women.

How about no? Feminism is about rights for women
.

the_trooper wrote:
There is male privilege going on all around and if you can't see it, it's pretty much the same reason you are still a virgin.

If you are going to insult people, please direct it to a specific person so that they can meet your feeble attempt at personal attacks.

the_trooper wrote:
The other reason is because you scream rape at your opponents without understanding the rape statistics for women is something like 1 in 6 women have suffered sexual assault. Yep, talking about a violent act that brings up something she may have suffered is a big turn off!

First, thats a load of croc. Second, i agree telling a woman you raped her might not be the best thing. But im also pretty sure no one has directed something like this at a woman while wargaming.

the_trooper wrote:
The OP may be a bit up tight (or a successful troll) but there is a bunch of misogyny flowing in this thread.

Misogyny, really? You are deluding yourself if you think anyone here has aired any HATE towards women, you cant even point out what, and until you do everything you said is just groxpoop.

BTW the 1 in 6 data on that page says it's from 1998.

Just saying...

1 out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime (14.8% completed rape; 2.8% attempted rape).
17.7 million American women have been victims of attempted or completed rape.



These two facts only add up if there are approximately 100 million women in America.

Your condescension is of a flavour that usually only comes from people who believe that mother-knows-best by virtue of nothing other than that they have children. So you are either trolling very, very well or else you are blindingly ignorant of how language evolves.

Follow Helium42 in the hood and tell me how well language evolves.

azazel the cat wrote:

jgehunter wrote:The actual percentage of women's raped is of 0.001 still 0.001 more than it should be but nowhere near the 1 in 6 you were talking about.

Those numbers are not accurate. Keep in mind that this particular event has a massive dark figure associated with it, and it is much higher than you think. However, it's not 1 in 6.

Frazzled wrote:No. Its only developed multiple meanings among slathering mouthbreathers who don't have a clue about common courtesy, manners, or pretty much anything (teenagers I am looking at you). Make such asinine statements at work and, well you won't be working.

Your condescension is of a flavour that usually only comes from people who believe that mother-knows-best by virtue of nothing other than that they have children. So you are either trolling very, very well or else you are blindingly ignorant of how language evolves.

What are the actual numbers? I have heard numbers as high as 1 in 4 women have suffered sexual assault. There are loads that go unreported, I am going to have to lean toward the 1 in 6 being true unless you can confirm otherwise.

I honestly don't see how misogyny doesn't apply. When men laugh about the inequality of women in a contemptuous way, how else can it be taken? (contemptuous is not the new dreadnought from FW).

Language can hurt. It can stir up emotion and it can really mess a person up. I can think of a couple of words than can really stir up emotion and should never be said in polite conversation. If you can't understand that, you have a lot to learn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bla_Ze wrote:

the_trooper wrote:Also, for the barely literate in this thread, feminism is actually just a movement for equality between men and women.

How about no? Feminism is about rights for women
.

the_trooper wrote:
There is male privilege going on all around and if you can't see it, it's pretty much the same reason you are still a virgin.

If you are going to insult people, please direct it to a specific person so that they can meet your feeble attempt at personal attacks.

the_trooper wrote:
The other reason is because you scream rape at your opponents without understanding the rape statistics for women is something like 1 in 6 women have suffered sexual assault. Yep, talking about a violent act that brings up something she may have suffered is a big turn off!

First, thats a load of croc. Second, i agree telling a woman you raped her might not be the best thing. But im also pretty sure no one has directed something like this at a woman while wargaming.

the_trooper wrote:
The OP may be a bit up tight (or a successful troll) but there is a bunch of misogyny flowing in this thread.

Misogyny, really? You are deluding yourself if you think anyone here has aired any HATE towards women, you cant even point out what, and until you do everything you said is just groxpoop.

VIRGIN SPOTTED

azazel the cat wrote:

jgehunter wrote:The actual percentage of women's raped is of 0.001 still 0.001 more than it should be but nowhere near the 1 in 6 you were talking about.

Those numbers are not accurate. Keep in mind that this particular event has a massive dark figure associated with it, and it is much higher than you think. However, it's not 1 in 6.

Frazzled wrote:No. Its only developed multiple meanings among slathering mouthbreathers who don't have a clue about common courtesy, manners, or pretty much anything (teenagers I am looking at you). Make such asinine statements at work and, well you won't be working.

Your condescension is of a flavour that usually only comes from people who believe that mother-knows-best by virtue of nothing other than that they have children. So you are either trolling very, very well or else you are blindingly ignorant of how language evolves.

I reject your reality and substitute my own. There is an option #3: I have manners. As an employer I can promise you that such language would have you terminated on the spot.
What do your wives, GFs, or sisters think of such language?

Skipped over most of the posts in this to respond with: It's only offensive if you let it offend you. That's why we still have people bothered by words these days; you pay attention and let it get to you. YOU are assigning the meaning. Get over it, and it's no longer a problem.

the_trooper wrote:Yes, rape victims should grow thicker skin.

Also, it is hilarious to wish rape upon people.

Is there anything I missed?

That you're a boor and someone may beat you to death one day?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

12thRonin wrote:

helium42 wrote:Nobody is trivializing rape. Language constantly evolves and rape is a term that has developed multiple meanings, like so many other words. Some people need to really work on having a thicker skin if the mere mention of a word in certain context can set them off.

Be in a room with a woman who's suffered that and some frat kid shouts "I just raped your ass!!!" in the middle of a game store. See how that works out. Yeah, she needs the thicker skin to deal with how she was violated.

Better yet, walk in to the hood and scream out a series of n-bombs and see how long you live. That word has developed multiple meanings after all too.

Agreed.

the_trooper wrote:Language can hurt. It can stir up emotion and it can really mess a person up. I can think of a couple of words than can really stir up emotion and should never be said in polite conversation. If you can't understand that, you have a lot to learn.

I never said that language can't hurt. I simply said that language not designed to be insulting shouldn't hurt. There is a signifcant difference between calling a slowed person "slowed", and calling a black person a "n*****". The former is an accurate description, and the latter is a slur designed to hurt. Comparing these two terms is like comparing apples to cars.

the_trooper wrote:VIRGIN SPOTTED

Aren't you being a little hypocritical here? I mean, you are blatantly demonstrating that you consider "virgin" to be pejorative.

Frazzled wrote:
What do your wives, GFs, or sisters think of such language?

My wife doesn't particularly care, but then, as I said, she works in a heavily male oriented work environment where talking like that's not going to get you fired. She's become desensitized to many things civilians would consider "crossing the line".

You'd be surprised how often even military officers forget there's women around their work place these days. Seriously, the stuff I hear about what her co-workers say and talk about.

And don't get me started on the stuff they've been caught and witnessed doing in public(up to and including hitting women) and were excused/let go because they were military.

Frazzled wrote:I reject your reality and substitute my own.

And therein lies the problem: reality is not subjective.

However, I do appreciate you being quite obvious in your subtext that you live a very sheltered life.

Frazzled wrote:There is an option #3: I have manners. As an employer I can promise you that such language would have you terminated on the spot.
What do your wives, GFs, or sisters think of such language?

My s/o and I are both feminists who believe that language only has the power that is ascribed to its message; it holds no power in and of itself. Saying a word like "f***" means nothing. Granted, there is a generation of people who believe in the censorship of language, and whom will use all types of arbitrary justifications to do so -manners being one example. However they are not concerned with language itself: they desire social control.

And they are losing.

EDIT: Also, your own attitude and belief that women need to be sheltered and protected from language will do more damage to women's rights than any misogyny could ever hope to do. So as women's freedoms and choices are slowly peeled back across the United States, I hope you recognize that it was allowed in part due to attitudes such as yours.

TheHarleqwin wrote:Skipped over most of the posts in this to respond with: It's only offensive if you let it offend you. That's why we still have people bothered by words these days; you pay attention and let it get to you. YOU are assigning the meaning. Get over it, and it's no longer a problem.

Try it at work. Tell me how it goes for you.

CorvidMP wrote:
Academic feminists reacted to a very real, and very damaging, devauling of the female that took place over millenia, with a counter reaction devaluing the male. It's left such a mark on our society that we can even mention our genitalia in a phrase with out it being supect. But just because what they reacted to was awful, does not mean that they, also, can't be just as awful.

Yep. One could call it misandry. I dont think it is quite that harsh, but performing the same sins to the sex that has dominated another for so long does not prove a point and is actually a devolution of feminism.

I do not apologize for my penis anymore than a female should apologize for her vagina.

Yet during Christmas I am supposed to listen to "Politically correct" songs because "Baby it's cold outside" is supposedly a fething rape song. Good lord.

As a poster said earlier, pick your battles. Because some battles raised do nothing more than cause a wider divide in an attempt to desexualize everything on the planet.

PP does not need to publish a statement for their page 5 statement.

Understand the context, THEN criticize the statement. Until then, it is much ado about nothing.

the_trooper wrote:
VIRGIN SPOTTED

Now i couldn't care less if you have had consensual sex in the missionary position, but you sound like a whiny little child.

Sexual relations or not, at least i can call you on your faulty statements.

Frazzled wrote:

TheHarleqwin wrote:Skipped over most of the posts in this to respond with: It's only offensive if you let it offend you. That's why we still have people bothered by words these days; you pay attention and let it get to you. YOU are assigning the meaning. Get over it, and it's no longer a problem.

Try it at work. Tell me how it goes for you.

Just an observation, but you seem to jump to conclusions quite often. My intention was to state that people are oversensitive because they're told things should bother them. I am NOT insinuating that I spout off slurs or anything of the sort and expect to get away with it. What I'm stating is that you give the word it's ability to offend you by choosing to let it do so.If someone insults me, all it does is point out that the person in question is obviously either stupid, or just a pathetic individual whom I have no desire to know. It doesn't go any farther than that.

Somebody says something to you, write them off. You don't need them. Why should their words bother you?

azazel the cat wrote:
My s/o and I are both feminists who believe that language only has the power that is ascribed to its message; it holds no power in and of itself. Saying a word like "f***" means nothing. Granted, there is a generation of people who believe in the censorship of language, and whom will use all types of arbitrary justifications to do so -manners being one example. However they are not concerned with language itself: they desire social control.

And they are losing.

It's apparently that neither of you have been or dealt with a rape victim. Consider yourself fortunate and her even more so. I doubt that you'd have this stance if you actually had any experience with what you're talking about.

I've read the first post, and about the last five posts, and skipped everything in-between. As a semicompetitive WM/H player I can confidently say that within the WM/H gameset, some of the most powerful figures are indeed women, and if you were to add up the 10 most powerful figures in-game, it's very likely that more than half (Haleys, Dennys, Old Witch, Harbinger, Saeryn, Lylith, Vayls) are female. Of those females, one is dead and the other is a near-immortal quasi-deific entity. One has died, but got better.

Based on the amount of pansification present in this thread thus far, the people complaining about Page 5 don't have the dice to game with these gals.