Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Chowderhead wrote:

mattyrm wrote:The vast majority of warhammer players extend PP players that very same courtesy, why cant they be equally polite?

Because they play like they have a bigger pair?

Quite possibly, I however will now heed reds words and bugger off to a thread about a game I actually play and understand.

Merely my two cents chaps.

I'm sure WM is a fine game though, I like plenty of their models....

Chowderhead wrote:

powerclaw wrote:

mattyrm wrote:

Castiel wrote:As someone thinking about starting Warmachine I thought this might be an informative thread. Instead it turned out to be an arguement over whether a tagline enocouraging people to play offensively was offensive to women and a general bashing of Warmachine. I am disappoint.

It just means "go after them and hit them with sticks" rather than sitting back and waiting for them to come and hit you with sticks. Saying that it is offensive to anyone is silly, frankly.

As someone that isn't thinking about starting warmachine because he still cant finish his puny 3000pt GW army and he only plays twice a month anyway, I entered the thread not knowing what it was on about, but I disagree with the OP, it seems to be just needless nit picking.

Now that I am here however....

I am glad to see that the people who play Warmachine are as ridiculously easy to offend and ridiculously aggressive with people they think are criticising PP on their own turf.

I'm what, 4500 posts in? I've never once entered a PP thread because I don't play it. Its nice to see that the haters don't extend me the same courtesy and endlessly troll the GW threads with their hatred and bile and virtual bullying.

How about you haters extend the embattled Warhammer players the same friggin courtesy and stay out of the GW threads if you don't play the games or buy the models or intend to start? You know, like I do?

I mean, fairs fair and all that chaps. One law for all yes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PhantomViper wrote:

Feldenglas wrote:Yes, I meant rape. I censored it voluntarily because I've seen the word censored in WoW, wasn't sure what the standards were here, and decided to err on the side of caution.

So anyway, thanks for the input. It's been educational, and I'm guessing I would have loved this game when I was 15.

All the PP bashers have already come out of the woodwork, you can stop trolling now...

How is this a GW thread? Please explain. Also, Dakka Dakka is not a strictly GW forum and general discussion is just that. Also, what about players that play both. What was the point of the army points you mentioned? It wasn't very clear, but I hope you weren't indicating the size of your collection. That would just be irrelevant.

I will tell you this once and only once.

Do not poke the bear. It will end badly for everyone involved.

Also, way to completely dodge the question and go straight for the personal attacks. I, for one, somewhat agree with MattyRM. This is a mainly WH40k board. So if you come on and insult WH40k as a PP gamer, don't be offended if they come out of the woodwork to defend it.

Its kind of confusing with all the quotes, but is that for me? I was just confused. There were no personal attacks. I now realize that mattrym was coming on a PP thread to ask PP players to not come on GW threads to rip on GW because ofter all, can't PP players let GW talk GW in peace so that GW players don't come on PP threads and do the same. See why I'd be confused? Also, the number of points listed is still confusing to me. I was only asking because it was a very strongly worded post that I had trouble understanding and would likely lead to more fighting.

Also, I'm not actually a PP player as of yet and I will go wherever I please to point out what's wrong with the system I've been playing for so long, imo.

Chowderhead wrote: This is a mainly WH40k board. So if you come on and insult WH40k as a PP gamer, don't be offended if they come out of the woodwork to defend it.

I have 3000+ pts of Imperial Guard.
I have 4000+ pts of Dark Elves

Before the Failcrap / 8th edition WHFB disaster hit, I had armies of Tau, Skaven, Demons, Space Wolves, Tomb Kings and was starting a Dark Eldar army.

I also own fully playable armies / fleets / gangs / squadrons of BFG, Mordheim, Necromunda, Blood Bowl, INQUISITOR and Aeronautica Imperialis.

May I talk about GW products now, Mister, may I?

Misread intentions, gratuitous grandstanding, endless pedantry... Looks like any other thread on here.

OP, grow up, seriously.

I don't find "Play like you've got a pair" offensive. Juvenile, perhaps. But not offensive.

Frazzled wrote:
Says the player with boobs as an avatar. Seriously? What are you, twelve?

Says the player with a weiner as an avatar. Thats sick.

And by they way, the boobs clearly say warhammer 40k so its perfectly ok.

So did you actually have anything worthwhile to say, or only to poke fun?

i am so confused with this thread right now

its kinda like a fight breaking out over a family dinner

:|

Respond to threads like you've got a brain.

.....ba-dum-tsh!



[Meant as a light-hearted joke, no targets! Don't shoot!... pleee-hehe-ease don't shooot meehhh!]
Yeah I don't have a clue as to what's going on here either anymore.

Bla_Ze wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
Says the player with boobs as an avatar. Seriously? What are you, twelve?

Says the player with a weiner as an avatar. Thats sick.

And by they way, the boobs clearly say warhammer 40k so its perfectly ok.

So did you actually have anything worthwhile to say, or only to poke fun?

One can be both.

Growing up feminist, in an all woman household, I'm usually very aware of even more covert attempts at misogyny.
However, I think it's important to realize that having skin that's so paper thin that we all become verbally and morally paralyzed and unable to make even casual reference to the unique and beautiful differences between the genders actually harms the ideas of equality, non-biased gender relationships, and the joy of individual gender identity.
That said, yeah, maybe the phrase is a bit gender biased or misogynistic, but it's flying so low on the flag pole of what we are bombarded with on a daily basis, that I have only registered it in the most minor fashion.
OP feels a bit overly sensitive, and really, more like Bla_ze said, ranting.
Also, Bla_Ze, I love that your are posting in this thread with that avatar. The juxtaposition is hilarious.

matphat wrote:Growing up feminist, in an all woman household, I'm usually very aware of even more covert attempts at misogyny.
However, I think it's important to realize that having skin that's so paper thin that we all become verbally and morally paralyzed and unable to make even casual reference to the unique and beautiful differences between the genders actually harms the ideas of equality, non-biased gender relationships, and the joy of individual gender identity.
That said, yeah, maybe the phrase is a bit gender biased or misogynistic, but it's flying so low on the flag pole of what we are bombarded with on a daily basis, that I have only registered it in the most minor fashion.
OP feels a bit overly sensitive, and really, more like Bla_ze said, ranting.
Also, Bla_Ze, I love that your are posting in this thread with that avatar. The juxtaposition is hilarious.

Crap, i had to look that word up, so im not sure if you are prasing me or not. Im taking a wild leap and guessing not. But you know, normally im more of a lurker but i posted in this thread for a reason.

Leave it to americans to go bonkers over a pair of clothed bobbies Its not like your the biggest consumer and producer of "sexist" media (porn).
I myself have a more open and balanced view on sex and gender, but its fun to see the attempts at quaint christian moralism (i hope that was correct)

Frazzled wrote:
One can be both.

Quite correct old chap, i was hoping you picked up on my amusing tone, not sure i succeeded.

Yep, it was more or less a compliment.
Mostly because I feel it ironic, and wish I had thought of doing something similar.

matphat wrote:Growing up feminist, in an all woman household, I'm usually very aware of even more covert attempts at misogyny.
However, I think it's important to realize that having skin that's so paper thin that we all become verbally and morally paralyzed and unable to make even casual reference to the unique and beautiful differences between the genders actually harms the ideas of equality, non-biased gender relationships, and the joy of individual gender identity.
That said, yeah, maybe the phrase is a bit gender biased or misogynistic, but it's flying so low on the flag pole of what we are bombarded with on a daily basis, that I have only registered it in the most minor fashion.
OP feels a bit overly sensitive, and really, more like Bla_ze said, ranting.
Also, Bla_Ze, I love that your are posting in this thread with that avatar. The juxtaposition is hilarious.

I actually don't think this is at all misogynistic, It is, if anything, more offensive to men because it implies that all men are aggressive and insensitive.

I think it's all about general social context. For example, my partner and closest friends all throw insults at one another. It's something of a way of showing affection... But we're never more foul-mouthed to each other than when we're gaming.

Juvenile? Yup. Fun? Yup. Common? Yup.
Ill-intentioned? Nope.

Some of the ways I comically slate my boyfriend and friends, I'd never just say to random people I'm gaming against, unless I knew they were on a similar wave-length to me, had and a similar sense of humour.

I think the whole "Play like you've got a pair" line could easily be taken as a similar strand of the kind of context I illustrated above. It just strikes me as general gaming banter like you'd find amongst friends if you were playing any other game...

Howard A Treesong wrote:I really don't care for the use of 'rape' I've more recently come across in some gaming circles. If someone has badly lost a game then someone may say 'they were raped' or if someone is likely to be beaten 'you're going to be raped so bad'.

That's just horrible language, is it supposed to be funny? It must come from the mouths of people who have no experience with rape, but it's surprising how many people have been raped or know someone who has been. Seems a needless and stupid choice of language considering you never know who is a rape victim. I imagine more girls have been raped than men and are more likely to tell each other, so that's another way to alienate female gamers or their friends in particular.

I think I addressed this on page 2. "Rape" can be synonymous with "despoiled". It doesn't necessarily refer to forced intercourse. Also, the husks of grapes are refered to as rape after they get a stomping in the winemaking process. That also applies, to some degree.

If things like this are a big problem for some people, I want your lives.

Feldenglas wrote:Honestly, this slogan is keeping me away from WM/H, due to the implications of casual misogyny. Does Privateer ever address this? As a company, have they ever made a statement welcoming female players, or clarifying the fact that they're aware of the gender politics behind making this statement their system's core ethic?

I don't really care about how this resonates just with females. I am more concerned about how it impacts the entire player base. Personally I don't really enjoy playing games with people who are too into a slogan like that. Just my 2 cents.

So maybe the real question is other than a little mysogyny (and I do mean a little) is this any different than all the guys running around yelling WAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGHHHHHHH at a GW event? I don't think so but I think page five wasn't really the greatest idea ever.

My complaint with this is the designers are encouraging people to play badly.

@Darkness

have you played WMH?

Feldenglas wrote:Yes, I meant rape. I censored it voluntarily because I've seen the word censored in WoW, wasn't sure what the standards were here, and decided to err on the side of caution.

So anyway, thanks for the input. It's been educational, and I'm guessing I would have loved this game when I was 15.

Hmmmmmm....... I was originally a little bit on your side but I think you just might be taking this a little too seriously (and by a little I mean a lot). You are telling me you are ok playing a game (40k in this case) that routinely touches on mass genocide, deamonic corruption, and essentially whose only female models are sexed up nuns in brasiers but somehow a single sentence on one page of a rulebook somehow offends you this much that you think you might have enjoyed the game when you were a pimply faced immature kid?

Interesting to sat the least.

azazel the cat wrote:Also, the husks of grapes are refered to as rape after they get a stomping in the winemaking process. That also applies, to some degree.

Oh yes, I'm sure that's what people have in mind when saying "I'll rape you", either that or they are making some peculiar reference to Brassica napus.

DarknessEternal wrote:My complaint with this is the designers are encouraging people to play badly.

For what it's worth, Warmachine is a game that seriously favours aggression. Playing defensively in Warmachine is the surest way to lose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:Also, the husks of grapes are refered to as rape after they get a stomping in the winemaking process. That also applies, to some degree.

Oh yes, I'm sure that's what people have in mind when saying "I'll rape you", either that or they are making some peculiar reference to Brassica napus.

What, that's less likely than sexually assaulting a person over a game of 40k? There must be a lot of Slaanesh armies in your gaming group.

Tell me which one seems a more likely allegory coming from across a miniatures table:

A: I'm going to stomp you into pulp!

B: I'm going to despoil your entire army!

C: I'm going to forcibly engage in sexual intercourse with you!

Feldenglas wrote:Hey Dok, thanks for the question, and I appreciate your tone of genuine interest.

I don't believe that PP's statement is against women, nor do I believe that they don't want women playing their games. What I suspect is that the statement was written with the best of intentions to create a specific attitude and culture around their game, but that they just didn't consider the possible gender implications. Lack of this kind of thought or consideration can be construed as casual misogyny (incidentally, here's a decent article if it helps: http://www.diamondbackonline.com/opinion/the-casual-stain-on-society-1.2709376 ))

It would be nice to know that Privateer was aware of it, and if they made a statement to that effect it would be fantastic. As a leading company in our hobby community, they have a tremendous amount of influence over the culture. Like I said, I do not believe that Privateer is anti-woman, nor do I think they should change their slogan.

I don't think terms like "man up" or "You're the man" are offensive necessarily, but look what they imply. They both portray manliness and masculinity as something positive and desirable, and both refer to assuming an attitude or expression of general maleness. "Play like you've got a pair", while also ascribing positive traits to males, does make that masculinity somewhat inaccessible by implication that it is inherently anatomical.

I don't think any of this is insurmountable. It just needs to be talked about.

i dont think its anything of the kind. I think you're taking things too far, and too literally. that article of yours is scary, and ridiculously over the top. This political correctness garbage wasnt funny 10 years ago, and its certainly not funny now. ISeriously, i think its as dangerous to say that "man up" and "you're the man" are bad things, as you imply here. There is already a crisis of masculinity out there. too many guys are afraid of being guys, and dont know how. too many young lads out there go through a lot of mental torment over what are perfectly natural thoughts and impulses. If you ask me, the last generation of pro-feminist dogma has pushed things too far the other way. It almost feels like "being a guy" is a bad thing. And before you ask, I am not an overly aggressive jock. Im a normal guy. guy friends, girl friends. gay, straight, and strange. I have healthy relationships with both sexes, and firmly believe not in the superiority of one sex over another, but that evolution crafted us to work together and bring different strengths and skills to life's hurdles.
I feel what you've said is dangerous, and symptomatic of a very dangeous and negative attitude. Masculinity is (as you've done here) marginalised, ridiculed and looked down upon. Why? Apparently, its not good enough. you know, its somehow bad to be a guy, and think guy thoughts, and to want to do guy things.... *sigh* A ong time ago, i rebelled against that notion. No, you dont need to be a jerk about being male. YOu dont have to go over the top. But you know what? Its 3 million years of evolution, hormones and wiring that are guiding us. Its not good. Or bad. Good and Bad literally have nothing to do with it. And you know what? Its OK to want to watch "the game". Its OK to enjoy juvenile toilet humour. Its OK to have a ridiculously high sex drive. Its OK to enjoy testosterone fuelled aggressive sports like Rugby and Boxing. Its OK to think she has a nice butt. Its OK to have a Mancave", where you can hide from the world. Its OK to have moments where you shave with a rock, wrestle grizzlies, and punch trees. Its OK to be "a guy". Despite what the PC brigade says, none of that stops you being a well adjusted, stable member of society capable of a good work ethic, honest and valued morals, and the ability to maintain healthy relathionships with the opposite (or the same) sex.

Page 5 is tongue in cheek trash talking. its not meant to be taken seriously. sadly, too many people out there are looking for the next great thing to be offended about, gather round a flag, and get the protest banners out, light the torches and march against the evil empire. "play like you got a pair" is just a phrase. Just like "balls!"Which is a rather amusing swear word that seems to be spoken aloud by both genders. WHat amuses me is that a our "bits" tend to be used as swear words and expletives from time to time.

TheSinheizer wrote:I think it's all about general social context. For example, my partner and closest friends all throw insults at one another. It's something of a way of showing affection... But we're never more foul-mouthed to each other than when we're gaming.

Juvenile? Yup. Fun? Yup. Common? Yup.
Ill-intentioned? Nope.

Some of the ways I comically slate my boyfriend and friends, I'd never just say to random people I'm gaming against, unless I knew they were on a similar wave-length to me, had and a similar sense of humour.

I think the whole "Play like you've got a pair" line could easily be taken as a similar strand of the kind of context I illustrated above. It just strikes me as general gaming banter like you'd find amongst friends if you were playing any other game...

amen. when me and my family and friends get together, its like an episode of South Park. And i wouldnt have it any other way

Feldenglas wrote:

I don't really care about how this resonates just with females. I am more concerned about how it impacts the entire player base. Personally I don't really enjoy playing games with people who are too into a slogan like that. Just my 2 cents.
.

And yet most people take it as its meant to be taken - as a bit of tongue in cheek fun. Please see my post below. Page 5 is nothing but a good thing for the hobby in general. Most people i know seem to enjoy the inherent aggression and "ballsy" play (girls too!) ANd i think, honestly, you should get to know the community before you say you want to have nothing to do with them

DarknessEternal wrote:My complaint with this is the designers are encouraging people to play badly.

define "play badly",

here is page 5.

1) Thou Shalt Not Whine. seriously, more 40k players should take this to heart. there is an internet joke out there that a group of 40k players is called a whine. Look at the GeeDub general discussion page on any 40k page. the constant moaning, complaining and whining ruins the game for me.
2) Come Heavy Or Don't Come At All plat the best game you can. Be aggressive, bring your best, bring your A game, and throw down. thats the ultimate respect you can give me as a friend and opponent.
3) Give As Good As You Get self explanitory. go down fighting. dont wimp out. Be as good as you can be. Play the best players, and constatly seek to up your game.
4) Win Graciously And Lose Valiantly. seems a mighty fine ethos.
5) Page 5 Is Not An Excuse the crux of the matter. anyone using page 5 as an excuse to be a jerk, quite simply, is a jerk. and they were jerks before page 5 came along. doing what he's doing completely misses the point of page 5. to be honest, i dont see how any of that can be taken to encourage anything other than a good attitude towards your opponents.

seriously people. this is what Page 5 is all about. Its about making it the best game possible for you and your opponents. Its nothing but a positive attitude to bring to your games, and one that IMO, if more people had, would make this a bigger and better hobby.

or D) I'm going to violate you in the worst ways possible, which is pretty much what that term boils down too.

azazel the cat wrote:
For what it's worth, Warmachine is a game that seriously favours aggression. Playing defensively in Warmachine is the surest way to lose.

Oh really?

DarknessEternal wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:
For what it's worth, Warmachine is a game that seriously favours aggression. Playing defensively in Warmachine is the surest way to lose.

Oh really?

Yes, really. In any scenario aside from pure assassination, defensive playing will lose you the game, especially against something like my eKreoss T4 list which will be sitting on the objectives turn 1 or sometimes even pre-turn 1.

PP even frowns on it as it prolongs the game needlessly in many cases, hence why Killbox was introduced.

Also, I wouldn't necessarily term "hit and run" as a defensive tactic.

Deadnight wrote:

1) Thou Shalt Not Whine.

Dakka would IMPLODE if this was an enforced rule.

azazel the cat wrote:
Tell me which one seems a more likely allegory coming from across a miniatures table:

A: I'm going to stomp you into pulp!

B: I'm going to despoil your entire army!

C: I'm going to forcibly engage in sexual intercourse with you!

You're being wilfully obtuse. I know the phrase is being used to impart how much of a defeat you are about to receive. But it has a far more obvious and meaningful everyday usage. My point is that it's extremely unpleasant language which is likely to upset. Perhaps you are one of these people who think it's okay to call others or their armies 'slowed' in place of just saying you think they are bad? I mean it's just an allegory, it's not as if you actually are alluding to them having some sort of mental condition are you? My further point what that rape is a fairly emotive subject, and throwing around that sort of language you defend is likely to upset someone who has any experience with it, which isn't actually a small number of people, and you can't possibly tell who they are by looking at them.

I assume you have the sense to not say to someone in a wheelchair "your tactics are completely slowed". So why are you happy talking about how badly people are going to be raped today when you don't know who might be upset by such conversation?

Howard A Treesong wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:
Tell me which one seems a more likely allegory coming from across a miniatures table:

A: I'm going to stomp you into pulp!

B: I'm going to despoil your entire army!

C: I'm going to forcibly engage in sexual intercourse with you!

You're being wilfully obtuse. I know the phrase is being used to impart how much of a defeat you are about to receive. But it has a far more obvious and meaningful everyday usage. My point is that it's extremely unpleasant language which is likely to upset. Perhaps you are one of these people who think it's okay to call others or their armies 'slowed' in place of just saying you think they are bad? I mean it's just an allegory, it's not as if you actually are alluding to them having some sort of mental condition are you? My further point what that rape is a fairly emotive subject, and throwing around that sort of language you defend is likely to upset someone who has any experience with it, which isn't actually a small number of people, and you can't possibly tell who they are by looking at them.

I assume you have the sense to not say to someone in a wheelchair "your tactics are completely slowed". So why are you happy talking about how badly people are going to be raped today when you don't know who might be upset by such conversation?

The Wife had an excellent way of solving the usage of this term, when the boy and his friends were hanging out at the house, and kept muttering such.
It was simple yet elegant.
Wife: "I will beat to death the next person that says that in this house."
Genghis Connie: "Yea what mom said!"
teenagers: silence.
In the distance a wiener dog snored.

The Wife had an excellent way of solving the usage of this term, when the boy and his friends were hanging out at the house, and kept muttering such.
It was simple yet elegant.
Wife: "I will beat to death the next person that says that in this house."
Genghis Connie: "Yea what mom said!"
teenagers: silence.
In the distance a wiener dog snored.