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I think more gaming stores could happily benefit from some of the more fringe MTG practices.

1st off, find a local painter. Pay this guy in store credit to paint models or units then list them for sale both in glass and online via ebay. It's silly how many packs of MTG combos we sold over the years and I'm just a guy ebaying stuff online. Years ago with was Thrall Pits and Lord of the Pit. Then it was Sliver Packs with Dream Halls.

Putting a little work outside of breaking a box open goes a long way. Mikhaila especially has the right of it in regards to moving armies back and forth for people. If you look at bartertown alone you can find people just giving away units or armies at 40-50% of retail. Buy them, assemble them, paint them, then move them. (Again, a faithful employee who paints or a deal with a local painter works well here.) Your shoppers will be amazed at the thought of getting an assembled army bigger than a battleforce either primed or prepainted for less than 90% of retail.

Honestly whenever a shop opens in my town it has been a running joke to see how long it lasts. I've seen hobby-shops come and go, card shops last only a couple seasons, and just vanish within the void of time.

Honestly, from what I see the main issue with FLGS are is that they do not want to move away from their comfort zone, ever. A lot of the time( from what I see) FLGS will tend to simply old onto the one big seller, and that is their primary seller, if not only. This tends to be Magic the Gathering, events and the such being ran for the town university, keeping interest and making money that way.

However...alll I can say is, what happens if MTG has a bad year?

Avrik_Shasla wrote:Honestly whenever a shop opens in my town it has been a running joke to see how long it lasts. I've seen hobby-shops come and go, card shops last only a couple seasons, and just vanish within the void of time.

Honestly, from what I see the main issue with FLGS are is that they do not want to move away from their comfort zone, ever. A lot of the time( from what I see) FLGS will tend to simply old onto the one big seller, and that is their primary seller, if not only. This tends to be Magic the Gathering, events and the such being ran for the town university, keeping interest and making money that way.

However...alll I can say is, what happens if MTG has a bad year?

Then your store closes.

Too many stores get opened by gamers, with no business experience. Look at all the posts on Dakka that are about "A store by gamers, for gamers" or "What do you guys want to see in a store?" So someone who likes MTG opens a store that is heavy into MTG. The boardgamer opens a store to cater to boardgamers. They remind me of the "Leftporium" on Simpsons.

Stores need depth, and diversity, along with a business plan, accounting, inventory control, a working vacuum, and location, location, location.

Just MTG doesn't cut it in the long run.

mikhaila wrote:
Stores need depth, and diversity, along with a business plan, accounting, inventory control, a working vacuum, and location, location, location.

And a plunger if some of the bathrooms I've walked into at FLGS after fellow gamer use are an indication.

The one I can think of that does alot of these things, they also cater to what the customers want and go out of thier way to make it happen for you.

Not so much of full on that customer is always right crap, but if you go in wanting a XYZ, hen they do thier level best to get that XYZ PDQ. (Pretty Darned Quick!)

Another thing that the one I think about is that they evolve. If something was a fad, then it goes into the back room, or away. They don't try to keep a dead dog around stinking up the place.

Gamers have excess stuff, as a matter of the real hobby. The store has a way for you to recycle, and recoupe it for newer or different systems stuff, and then turns it. Either online, or instore, ( to who in the store? Why to people that come into the store and look in and see whats in the area that came in this week, or yesterday.... (Such as that first edition copy of Gamma World, )

I loves me some game stores.

Just throwing this out there: table rental. Make sure your tables ARE worth renting (top-notch terrain, not just foam hills and quickly-painted foamboard ruins. Something you'll be proud to take a photo of.) and charge customers just a little bit to rent the tables. I'm sure people would be willing to pay a dollar or two to use a really nice wargaming table.

My question is, if you sale Magic TG, Yugioh and other ccg, wont it take more space along with miniature games? Dont you need to have tables and space for both business?

Can a business with no table space can be successful to?

Capt. Camping wrote:My question is, if you sale Magic TG, Yugioh and other ccg, wont it take more space along with miniature games? Dont you need to have tables and space for both business?

Can a business with no table space can be successful to?

Gamers Paradise was a chain in Chicago and was successful for a decade but they eventually went under. I'm not privy to the details of their financials but my friends and I stopped shopping there when their lava lamp and novelty gag gift selection exceeded that of traditional gaming (minis, rpgs, board games). During that time, they had no tables but also had NO competition within the city limits either (the next nearest game stores were all suburban).

Capt. Camping wrote:My question is, if you sale Magic TG, Yugioh and other ccg, wont it take more space along with miniature games? Dont you need to have tables and space for both business?

Can a business with no table space can be successful to?

most of the places I have been to have smaller tables (ie. a single standard folding table) for their CCGs, and make use of larger "gaming" tables (in 6x4 or larger, usually) to accommodate both crowds... If they are too small, or get extremely busy, they have a set "calendar" of what games are on tap for that day/evening... This is not to say that other games werent played on their 'off' nights, it was more a "if you dont play warhammer, and it's warhammer Wed. you should expect some trouble finding a game, or space for your game on Wed. night".


One store that I went to, but never had a chance to game there, only had a small 2x2 (i think) table in the front room... on this table, the employees would run starter or introductory games to various systems... I watched one day as they played a game involving ww2 aircraft and cards, with very little dice... all of the actual game tables were in the back room with all the terrain... and my was it a large space.. it had 12 standard tables of 6x4, but had previously arranged it for apoc games and whatnot to 4 tables.. though their standard daily set up was actually 16 tables, as a couple of them were separated for army "storage" during games, and/or magic and DnD, etc.

I have never been a fan of Table rental. It is not a way to make money from customers or pay for the lights, but a sure fire way to send them away from your store.

First things first people playing on the tables sell stuff. I cannot tell you the amount of people at my LGS who upon seeing someone play a game or two of somehting go up to the counter and pick up a starter or a model for the game.

Also have a good amount of what I like to call "Impulse buy" items. These include the afore mentioned chips and drinks, but also small under 5 dollar items. Our own LGS has the Gravity Feeds from Heroclix and they cannot keep the items on the counter long enough. At 3 bucks a pop it is cheap enough for someone to take the risk and buy a box hoping they can get the new Batman.

I really like my FLGS, the guys who run it are really cool guys and easy going. They also offer discounts to regulars, for example I was buying the eldar battlebox a week after the price increase and they still gave it to me for the "oringal" price of $95. Also when you get $100 in recepts from the store they give you 10% off a purchurse of your choice. But they are really nice and if it was not for them I would not be in this hobby. I support my FLGS but if you don't that's your choice.

carmachu wrote:FLGS have to provide me with something of worth. Just being a FLGS and having tables isnt enough. Been to stores that did that and they always turn on you in the end no matter how much support you give them.

Happened at least twice. Basement dweller now, and quite happy not to have to deal with FLGS BS. Playing with 6-12 different folks in someone's basement has given me alot in return that no FLGS has been able to duplicate thus far.

Doesnt mean I wouldnt in the future. But currently havent seen one worth its salt in my travels. There might be some given some of the ones here posting, but they arent by me.

I am a home dweller and I enjoy having the pc and the internet to my disposal. We can prepare armies in Battlescribe without having to carry Ipads or laptops to the stores. I think I have more terrain than my store without having to pay monthly for the use of the tables.

Kaldor wrote:

carmachu wrote:FLGS have to provide me with something of worth. Just being a FLGS and having tables isnt enough. Been to stores that did that and they always turn on you in the end no matter how much support you give them.

They 'turn' on you? What do you mean?

They want you around, they want your money. They start wanting you around to play and then......they shut down playing areas, they cut hours that you can play miniature games and eventually kick you to the curb.

Seen in twice in local FLGS. Was a good customer bought alot of stuff over the years. But store number 1 pretty much kicked out all the miniature gamers back in the late 90's early 2000's, had enough of them. Store number 2 we had the club there, many of us bought from them and not just miniature stuff. Then another day pretty much kick the miniature crowd to the curb and shut it down. WIlling to lose sales, didnt want miniature players around anymore. At this time in 2004 we had enough and formed our our paying club and paid for our own space, later on set up shop years after in someone's basement. Thats just some of many stories.

So for me, supporting FLGS is a losing proposition. Becasue in my experiences, no matter how loyal you are, they turn on you. So F'd them. I'm sure my opinion would be differnt if I had Mikilha's store around- he seems to have a head on his shoulders. But too many other stores dont, so I'm not willing to show any loyalty any more. If I ever start playing consistantlyin stores again, they'd have to show some loyalty first.

beowulfhunter wrote:I have never been a fan of Table rental. It is not a way to make money from customers or pay for the lights, but a sure fire way to send them away from your store.

Care to elaborate why? If given a choice of a free table with mediocre terrain pieces and a really nice table you can rent say, a dollar or two for a night of gaming will people always choose the free one?

It probably comes down to that fact that even if you rent 6 tables a night a 2 dollars a pop your making about 24 bucks a weekend. (Making the assumption that you wont have to fight off crowds from renting all your tables on weeknights)

That's an extra 1200 dollars a year.

The question is whether or not that is worth the potential loss in sales from new people turned away thinking your being a miser or a cheap ass. Not to mention fights over table space.

"Hey pal, I payed my two dollars. This table is mine tonight!"

"But your just leaning on it talking about your codex and eating a cheeseburger?!"

I wouldnt think it's worth it.

If drunk people at a bar can work out the system for getting charged to use a pool table, then a bunch of nerds should be able to figure out how to pay for a table at a FLGS.

Fragjuice wrote:

An online discounter with cheap warehouse space and no walk in traffic can and has to discount. Existing stores can't go to a landlord and have him knock the rent in half, because you want to become an online discounter.

Disount on regular GW product is 45%. Giving a 20% discount means you're giving away 4/9ths of your profit. The store needs to nearly double it's sale on GW products to keep profits even. If you have a local sales tax, it's even worse. Do you offer even more discount to account for the sales tax? Then you need even more sales. And more inventory on hand to make those sales.

Discounting is only an option depending on your overhead. One of our local gaming stores is run out of an underground warehouse. Obviously a store like that has less overhead in terms of rent than a store that in the middle of the city in high priced retail space. The type of discount is up to each store as is how they are offered. I only used 20% in my example as that's what the Warstore does. I still firmly believe that discounting/sales/a reward system has to be part of the solution. I never said it was total solution, just a part.

Since people seem to agree to disagree on the discounting aspect of what I wrote, lets look at the rest of the article. How does the rest of it look to you all?

I think you are dead on in your article. This is how it feels at the LFGS in my region as I talk to the owners/managers of these stores and have certain insights on trends on what is selling and what is not. The important thing is that people Should be supporting their LFGS because once they are gone the access to the social interaction of people is gone as well.

The real selling point imo is tournaments. They provide exposure to the hobby for visitors, the need to quickly buy D model for a list, and consistant sale of product via entry fee/prize support. The success of magic is largely due to it's weekly tournaments and low entry fees. If every saturday was a $5-10 warhammer tournament with a couple of prizes, I'd be in buying stuff weekly and attend every tournament. A few local stores in my area are slowly realizing this formula and it's really awesome.

heartserenade wrote:

beowulfhunter wrote:I have never been a fan of Table rental. It is not a way to make money from customers or pay for the lights, but a sure fire way to send them away from your store.

Care to elaborate why? If given a choice of a free table with mediocre terrain pieces and a really nice table you can rent say, a dollar or two for a night of gaming will people always choose the free one?

Define Nice Table. The few stores I have been to that charged provided you with a felt covered table with a few styrofoam hills. Sorry not gonna pay to play on that. On the flit side I have been to stores (the noew defunct Challenge Games in Joliet that have awesome tables and never charged a dime.

Maybe on par or a bit below Terraformer level?


http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Making_Dynamic%2C_Craggy_Hills

lucasbuffalo wrote:The real selling point imo is tournaments. They provide exposure to the hobby for visitors, the need to quickly buy D model for a list, and consistant sale of product via entry fee/prize support. The success of magic is largely due to it's weekly tournaments and low entry fees. If every saturday was a $5-10 warhammer tournament with a couple of prizes, I'd be in buying stuff weekly and attend every tournament. A few local stores in my area are slowly realizing this formula and it's really awesome.

I concur to a point. If there is a sizable amount of player base in your region to take advantage of an weekly event then go for it.

I generally see a monthly or quarterly 40K event at my region, and myself runs and/or sponsors a quarterly event. A few hundred dollars out of my pocket book is not going to effect me as I will write it off as an business expense. I rather would see people enjoy themselves in a fun and yet competitive style of tournament at my LFGS than what is being ran in the Standard GW store in my region.

d-usa wrote:If drunk people at a bar can work out the system for getting charged to use a pool table, then a bunch of nerds should be able to figure out how to pay for a table at a FLGS.

I think the difference here, is that pool tables are mad expensive (I've been looking to buy one once I get my house) to purchase... And in a bar or other public setting, the pool table is often coin operated where you put your coins in, in order to release the cueball and the rest of the set. You then place each ball in the rack and play pool... Once each ball is shot into a hole, you can no longer even touch the thing til the game is done and you insert more coinage.

there are billiard halls which do not operate in this way, but they tend to be slightly nicer than your standard bar, and are more set up to run their tournaments as well.

heartserenade wrote:Just throwing this out there: table rental. Make sure your tables ARE worth renting (top-notch terrain, not just foam hills and quickly-painted foamboard ruins. Something you'll be proud to take a photo of.) and charge customers just a little bit to rent the tables. I'm sure people would be willing to pay a dollar or two to use a really nice wargaming table.

NO! I am adamantly against this.

1. It puts the store owner in a position of having to chase after his customers for a couple of bucks. It can be an agravating experience, that neither side needs.
2. The money gained is a pittance compared to your monthly bills.
3. It puts a barrier in the way of people coming into the shop and gaming. The more they are in the shop, the more they buy. Those purchases far outweigh the few dollars you get from renting tables.

Far better to offer those tables for free, and have a full house of gamers. Sure, you lose a few bucks a day in fees. But you gain far more in sales. Bottom line: More profitable, less agravation, better customer service, and the store is better appreciated by it's customers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

heartserenade wrote:

beowulfhunter wrote:I have never been a fan of Table rental. It is not a way to make money from customers or pay for the lights, but a sure fire way to send them away from your store.

Care to elaborate why? If given a choice of a free table with mediocre terrain pieces and a really nice table you can rent say, a dollar or two for a night of gaming will people always choose the free one?

Or stores should do a minimum amount of work to make good scenery, and offer it for free. I'm biased in my opionion of course, having a love of making scenery and several hundred pieces of it in my store. But good scenery and tables is part of having a good store.

mikhaila wrote:
Or stores should do a minimum amount of work to make good scenery, and offer it for free. I'm biased in my opionion of course, having a love of making scenery and several hundred pieces of it in my store. But good scenery and tables is part of having a good store.

Would there be something to be said for doing the occasional terrain event?? Perhaps the store purchases terrain, and customers can assemble and paint it (if you were using the GW stuff) for a competition where the winner gets a gift card, or some other prize, etc.... and the store gets more terrain?


The one store I went to in Colorado had an abundance of terrain... most of it I would consider just above passable, it really wasn't the greatest terrain out there (if you look at places like terragenesis especially), but there were a few gems in there as well.

One of the gaming clubs in our area had a tournament where the entrance fee was a piece of terrain, with a price for the best piece.

Sure you will get some crappy 5-minute-assembly-time entries, but most of the terrain was pretty good.

Adam LongWalker wrote:The important thing is that people Should be supporting their LFGS because once they are gone the access to the social interaction of people is gone as well.

But that isn't actually true. DakkaDakka is an example of why this isn't true. A person can come on here or any other site and find other players in their local area. In some ways a FLGS can make this easier but it isn't the only way in which clubs can be started or sustained.

That would be good and all except a majority of people who play this game do not use online forums.

If I had to rely on dakkadakka to find someone to play, I wouldn't be playing 40k. Period. Only a few people from my area on here, one of which plays at my store. The rest of them don't use DakkaDakka or any other forum.

sparkywtf wrote:That would be good and all except a majority of people who play this game do not use online forums.

If I had to rely on dakkadakka to find someone to play, I wouldn't be playing 40k. Period. Only a few people from my area on here, one of which plays at my store. The rest of them don't use DakkaDakka or any other forum.

No but someone in your area who just posted here would find you and that would open up other people in your area who you know. So with social media (including Facebook) it becomes a lot easier to find players and get a group going without an FLGS. Plenty of people do it and it really isn't that hard. It takes a little work but not an unreasonable amount. I'm not syaing the FLGS doesn't perform a nice service in this regard just that it isn't necessary.

brettz123 wrote:

sparkywtf wrote:That would be good and all except a majority of people who play this game do not use online forums.

If I had to rely on dakkadakka to find someone to play, I wouldn't be playing 40k. Period. Only a few people from my area on here, one of which plays at my store. The rest of them don't use DakkaDakka or any other forum.

No but someone in your area who just posted here would find you and that would open up other people in your area who you know. So with social media (including Facebook) it becomes a lot easier to find players and get a group going without an FLGS. Plenty of people do it and it really isn't that hard. It takes a little work but not an unreasonable amount. I'm not syaing the FLGS doesn't perform a nice service in this regard just that it isn't necessary.

Actually in some cases it is very necessary....take myself as an example... I recently PCSed from Germany, to Fort Campbell, KY. I did a thread here on dakka saying I was moving, and where people gamed here, to no real response. I searched GWs website for shops in my area (which was nearly as fruitless), but I drove around town, and walked into the only shop with a small GW/MTG sign on his window to find out that Friday night they stayed open late, and that 40k was played. On a Friday I went there and met a guy who it turns out I work with, as well as some other folks who I have played some, when I get the chance to go in.


Without actually going to the LGS where I am, I would most likely not be able to game at all (or at least not 40k), simply for the fact that there is apparently no one on Dakka from my current area, and not knowing anyone to look up on Fb, etc.

I love my FLGS.
It opened up last month and is close enough to walk to. The staff/owner is friendly the other players are cool. I get a game of 40k in then some thing ells is played.

Like last Wednesday after I tabled a SM foot list (sort of unfair as I was using my tank heavy list ), I had a smoke, chatted then the remanding 6 of us played a mad old game called The World of Munchkin until 11pm.

His selection of 40k stuff is limited but he does carry War Machine, Firestorm, the Lovecraft game and a crapton of comics.

I will be intending to buy a Firestorm starter (I like the look of the Terran ships) set from him as well as more dice (you can never have to many dice )

I hope he stays there for a good long time.