Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The Wraithknight needs Wraithcannons and not a Suncannon. The chance to ID those MC's is huge.

Just finished our game and man, it was an unbelievable game. We both got very good psychic powers. GTKA got Fortune, Doom and Guide for his powers. I got 2 Iron Arms on my flyrants (but not on my Warlord) and Puppet Master for the Doom. My flyrant also got FNP on an objective for its Warlord trait.

And to top it off, we were playing the Scouring where I had no Fast Attacks and my opponent had 3. We checked his crimson hunter and the wings dip low enough to actually claim an objective!

Report to come out after I finish up on my 1750 RTT Tournament report.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
A rather uncompetitive list from the space elves. It lacks focus, and some sub-omptimal units were taken. To my eye it looks more like a try-out for all these new units, a test to see which make the cut for a more competitive list.

I think the nids will take it without too much difficulty.

I disagree. While it isn't fully optimized, it's got focus alright and its focus is awesome mid-range shooting. Rather, it's shoot and scoot a la Tau. Just when you think you've got them, they ebb away like the sea, all the while shooting the heck out of you. From my experiences with eldar so far, they are a deceptively good army. On paper, they may not look all that great, but playing against them is a whole different experience.

GTKA666 wrote:
Eldar Pre Game Analysis:

Well I am well versed in the fire powa of the Flyrants and know that it is his only way of shooting, but little does he know that I don't run Eldar like a normal person. Who ever is first will dramatically dictate what dies and when in this game, unless one of us whiffs. This game can't have any errors in it in order to survive (for me mainly). Now I haven't gone against any trygons at all so this will be interesting to see, but I do know that once they get close I have to chose whether the spawn brooding Tervigons die and risk assault or take care of the big nasties in my face. Either way the Flyrants are TOP priority.

My opponent thinks I need movement . Warp Spiders are all the movement I need! In objective based games these guys shine with my strategies and will split up Tyranids once they are in the back field and control the flow of the flood. I am glad that Jim realizes that the WK may not have fire power, but he will have to be wary of him in combat since I have no need to smash and he might have to and see if I fail my invuls. Although I am very tempted to see how the WK does against the Mawloc. The WK will also look for any grounded Flyrant and make it disappear into thin air.

I am not too threatened by the Doom, but I am wary of it because he will most likely be targeting my fleshies on the objectives. The Quad gun will be crucial in this and the Crimson Hunter will have to take care of it since it doubles it out or the WK will have to punt it back to the filthy land it came from.

Thanks. I've added your pre-game to the main rep.

 Nivoglibina wrote:
Who has first turn, and a couple of grounding tests might decide the game.
I'd love to be proven wrong but I think the Tyranids will take this.
GL both!

Eldar will be going first. BTW, it will be Night-fight on T1.

DarthDiggler wrote:
The Wraithknight needs Wraithcannons and not a Suncannon. The chance to ID those MC's is huge.

I certainly forgot. I don't know if my opponent remembered. But don't you lose the wraithcannons if you take the suncannon?

All flyers that are fast attack should score for the Scouring. I doubt GW intended it otherwise.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
All flyers that are fast attack should score for the Scouring. I doubt GW intended it otherwise.

They are scoring, yes. However, the problem is that you only count the hull and most of the hulls are a lot more than 3" off the ground where the objectives are. Only the helturkey and the crimson hunter (maybe the stormtalons as well?) are low enough to claim objectives.

Of course, you could always put the objectives on top of a hill or on the upper levels of a ruin.

yes the options for the WK load out are- 2 ID guns, sword+shield, or sun cannon and shield. Unfortuanly there is no rrom to mix and match.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarthDiggler wrote:
The Wraithknight needs Wraithcannons and not a Suncannon. The chance to ID those MC's is huge.

Keep in mind that this is a tourney list. Both the Wraith and sun cannons have their uses, I just prefer the Suncannon for its ability to wipe out an entire terminator squad.

@ Imotek Also for this bat rep keep in mind that this is an experienced former GT player vs a player who only started playing 3-4 months ago. Regardless this battle has taught me things and I am pleased with the result and data I gleamed from this battle. Definitely worth it to see how the battle ends.

GTKA666 wrote:
yes the options for the WK load out are- 2 ID guns, sword+shield, or sun cannon and shield. Unfortuanly there is no rrom to mix and match.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarthDiggler wrote:
The Wraithknight needs Wraithcannons and not a Suncannon. The chance to ID those MC's is huge.

Keep in mind that this is a tourney list. Both the Wraith and sun cannons have their uses, I just prefer the Suncannon for its ability to wipe out an entire terminator squad.

@ Imotek Also for this bat rep keep in mind that this is an experienced former GT player vs a player who only started playing 3-4 months ago. Regardless this battle has taught me things and I am pleased with the result and data I gleamed from this battle. Definitely worth it to see how the battle ends.

Oh, I am fully aware that Jim is a very strong player, and I wouldn't expect you to somehow outmaneuver him in one of your first games. My comment was intended more as constructive critique than anything, outlining some difficulties I presumed you would have and pointing to some flaws in your list. Anyhow, I am glad to see you enjoyed your game.

 jy2 wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
A rather uncompetitive list from the space elves. It lacks focus, and some sub-omptimal units were taken. To my eye it looks more like a try-out for all these new units, a test to see which make the cut for a more competitive list.

I think the nids will take it without too much difficulty.

I disagree. While it isn't fully optimized, it's got focus alright and its focus is awesome mid-range shooting. Rather, it's shoot and scoot a la Tau. Just when you think you've got them, they ebb away like the sea, all the while shooting the heck out of you. From my experiences with eldar so far, they are a deceptively good army. On paper, they may not look all that great, but playing against them is a whole different experience.

I am not critiquing eldar in general, just this list. The foot guardians need Heavy Weapons extremely badly when behind an aegis line, the crimson hunter really isn't worth it's points when compared to other flyers of it's weight class and below, and, in my opinion at least, it is wise to either go all-out with serpents or not at all.

Eldar are certainly an excellent army, with the advantages you pointed out, but I don't think this list makes best use of those advantages.

Your intentions need a lil bit of work. They looked more of a bashing post than anything good.

I agree. Let the battle speak for itself.

You've seen people play with terminators? :-)


IMO one of the weaknesses of Eldar have always been their ability to deal with high armor targets at range. A pair of leman Russes at the back board edge. The Wraithknight cannons offer a weapon to deal with those targets now. It is better than the Fire Prism because it can not be silenced with one shot and it can not be saved with one cover save.

In the list you brought, only the crimson hunter can realistically engage armor 13-14 targets at range. Annihilation Barges, Land Raiders, Predators, Vindicators, Hammerheads, etc... All these would be trouble for Eldar at range in the past. Not so with the Wraithcannons.

The high volume of fire from most other Eldar units should be enough to deal with terminators. The War Walkers deal so many wounds that the termie unit will roll plenty of 1's. Couple that with 15 Warp Spiders and 2 wave serpents and that's a lot of armor saves the termies will have to make.

I think you have your anti termie load out in your volume of fire and the Wraithcannons solve the high armor at range problem.

GTKA666 wrote:
Your intentions need a lil bit of work. They looked more of a bashing post than anything good.

I apologize if it came of as such. I was merely trying to help you improve what I saw (and still see) as a rather weak eldar list.

DarthDiggler wrote:
You've seen people play with terminators? :-)


IMO one of the weaknesses of Eldar have always been their ability to deal with high armor targets at range. A pair of leman Russes at the back board edge. The Wraithknight cannons offer a weapon to deal with those targets now. It is better than the Fire Prism because it can not be silenced with one shot and it can not be saved with one cover save.

In the list you brought, only the crimson hunter can realistically engage armor 13-14 targets at range. Annihilation Barges, Land Raiders, Predators, Vindicators, Hammerheads, etc... All these would be trouble for Eldar at range in the past. Not so with the Wraithcannons.

The high volume of fire from most other Eldar units should be enough to deal with terminators. The War Walkers deal so many wounds that the termie unit will roll plenty of 1's. Couple that with 15 Warp Spiders and 2 wave serpents and that's a lot of armor saves the termies will have to make.

I think you have your anti termie load out in your volume of fire and the Wraithcannons solve the high armor at range problem.

I had someone set a squadron of Lemans up behind an ADL once. My WW's outflanked, and wiped the unit out. Another time I took them out with a Quad gun, though that was more towards the player making a bonehead move, and completely turning the tanks about to shoot at some warp spiders, presenting rear armor to a tank hunting exarch on the gun.

Eldar's speed makes up for it's slightly weaker ability to reach out and touch at 48". We can get a ton of Str 6 shooting onto the other side of the table in the blink of an eye.

 jy2 wrote:
Godless! Good to see you back here on the forums.

Cheers buddy, I've been around, just not posting a lot. Truth be told all I've been doing lately on the forums is reading reports from yourself, Reece, and ArbitorIan.

By dropping the two 10 man guardian squads, dropping the DA down to 8 and bringing the WK with its stock (and best) load out you could bring 4 squads of three windrider JB with a SC in each Squad. That makes the eldar list MUCH stronger as everything is lightning fast. The weakness in his list now is that 20 of those guardians are legging it and against an aggressive list like Jims here, they are just 180 dead points really. They may ground a HT or rend a few wounds off a trygon but they won't make much of a dent and then he loses 2 of his mere 4 scoring units. By the way, 4 scoring units at 2000 points is too few IMO.

 Red Corsair wrote:
By dropping the two 10 man guardian squads, dropping the DA down to 8 and bringing the WK with its stock (and best) load out you could bring 4 squads of three windrider JB with a SC in each Squad. That makes the eldar list MUCH stronger as everything is lightning fast. The weakness in his list now is that 20 of those guardians are legging it and against an aggressive list like Jims here, they are just 180 dead points really. They may ground a HT or rend a few wounds off a trygon but they won't make much of a dent and then he loses 2 of his mere 4 scoring units. By the way, 4 scoring units at 2000 points is too few IMO.

if you read the Golden Throne tournament rules (http://goldenthronegt.com/?page_id=84) and the way the rounds are set up, along with the my list, you would reconsider your statement. I am very aware of the Eldar meta which is why I am trying to abstain from it and come up with something new and fresh. With this list I have learned that I need not make mistakes or else I will have a hard time, but all I can say is don't underestimate the power of the dice rolls and the strength of the will of the Eldar Guardian! Not to mention I only have one guardian squad that is lolly gagging about since one squad is on the quad and the other will be staying at another objective or probably in reserves (which I should have tried in this test match but I digress).

 Red Corsair wrote:
By dropping the two 10 man guardian squads, dropping the DA down to 8 and bringing the WK with its stock (and best) load out you could bring 4 squads of three windrider JB with a SC in each Squad. That makes the eldar list MUCH stronger as everything is lightning fast. The weakness in his list now is that 20 of those guardians are legging it and against an aggressive list like Jims here, they are just 180 dead points really. They may ground a HT or rend a few wounds off a trygon but they won't make much of a dent and then he loses 2 of his mere 4 scoring units. By the way, 4 scoring units at 2000 points is too few IMO.

I agree with this.

GTKA666 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
By dropping the two 10 man guardian squads, dropping the DA down to 8 and bringing the WK with its stock (and best) load out you could bring 4 squads of three windrider JB with a SC in each Squad. That makes the eldar list MUCH stronger as everything is lightning fast. The weakness in his list now is that 20 of those guardians are legging it and against an aggressive list like Jims here, they are just 180 dead points really. They may ground a HT or rend a few wounds off a trygon but they won't make much of a dent and then he loses 2 of his mere 4 scoring units. By the way, 4 scoring units at 2000 points is too few IMO.

if you read the Golden Throne tournament rules (http://goldenthronegt.com/?page_id=84) and the way the rounds are set up, along with the my list, you would reconsider your statement. I am very aware of the Eldar meta which is why I am trying to abstain from it and come up with something new and fresh. With this list I have learned that I need not make mistakes or else I will have a hard time, but all I can say is don't underestimate the power of the dice rolls and the strength of the will of the Eldar Guardian! Not to mention I only have one guardian squad that is lolly gagging about since one squad is on the quad and the other will be staying at another objective or probably in reserves (which I should have tried in this test match but I digress).

I read through it and I fail to see how anything in the tournament rules and the rounds would make any of my suggestions any worse. Also there is no ubiquitous meta for eldar, from what I have seen of all the west coast "top" eldar players they mainly field footdar and seer bike counsils. Claiming to be unique while fielding 15 warp spiders scatter walkers and a WK sounds fishy. Are you just opposed to GJB? You seem to be ok with wave serpents though, maybe finding a way to get a 3rd in would work better. I feel like the DA are better suited on the ground as well as they have better resiliency and longer range.

Also, I feel like you are taking advice from the dakka community the wrong way, maybe this is due to being such a fresh face, generally you are going to hear lots of opinions which is intended to help users make a better list. You can field any unit or list you want but make no mistake, if you post a sub optimal build expect it to get the acid test. This helps the community and other new players build a better understanding of competitive play. No one is telling you how to play, instead we are pointing out any weak spots we see. Again this is only because of the way the net works, we really can't give you better advice on how to play as the nature of the game is so fluid. So sadly the best tactical advice we can share is list building until we have seen a game and can point out errors.

If he can make it work that's all that really matters. I remember when some people said Draigowing was a crappy army.

@ Corsair- Until some one asks "Why do you run these units in your list?" instead of "Put this unit in your list and take this out because I feel that I know more than you and you know nothing." people will find me being a nice little pain because they have forgotten that we have an entire sub forum for people to ask about their lists and see how it can improve or if the person is asking in a post later on in the bat rep if they should switch anything out.

So a sample conversation would be like this:

Dakkaite: Says first question

Me: Reasons

Dakkaite: Why don't you run this instead?

Me: Reason

So on and so forth. That to me seems like a very respectful way of going about things instead of saying that the list is trash and should reconsider a new one or just changing the entire feel of the list without the man creating the list even asking for help. Don't you agree? Everyone's posts may have the intention of good, but until people ask the question of why the post will be met with hostility.


After that I can only say read the bat rep and see what I did wrong and feel free to comment about them. I know I made mistakes and if I can get another game against Jy2, you definitely won't see them again and see my list improve that much more.

@Dozer- I appreciate your post. +1

Should be an interesting game. Look forward to seeing the bat rep.

@Jy2 why no 4th flyrant? Run out of flyrant models? It actually would be interesting to see what would happen with a list like that. Either way looks like an interesting army. BTW if you ran four then you could call them the barbershop quartet.

@GTKA666
Don't let it get under your skin manners and etiquette are stretched thin on a game forums. I agree it is much more productive to engage the person in dialogue than to take a lecturing posture on what should or shouldn't be done/taken. This however doesn't always happen as fast posts become abrupt or commanding posts on everyone else's screen

I have gotten the impression the game was already played, did you find anything in your list which did not synergize well? I have actually been finding eldar list building to be counter-intuitive. Counter-intuitive in that as long as you have a sprinkling from each of the necessary categories it is more important how you use it than the specific unit taken. I have not found any real duds in the dex (excluding perhaps banshees, still haven't gotten them to work). All the units people have been bagging on I have seen work really well if they are used in the correct fashion in the correct list (an example being the seer council from the dual deathstar list in an earlier Jy2 batrep, or Reec's WK). Did you find anything to be better or worse against nids than you imagined it to be?

 ansacs wrote:
Should be an interesting game. Look forward to seeing the bat rep.

@Jy2 why no 4th flyrant? Run out of flyrant models? It actually would be interesting to see what would happen with a list like that. Either way looks like an interesting army. BTW if you ran four then you could call them the barbershop quartet.

@GTKA666
Don't let it get under your skin manners and etiquette are stretched thin on a game forums. I agree it is much more productive to engage the person in dialogue than to take a lecturing posture on what should or shouldn't be done/taken. This however doesn't always happen as fast posts become abrupt or commanding posts on everyone else's screen

I have gotten the impression the game was already played, did you find anything in your list which did not synergize well? I have actually been finding eldar list building to be counter-intuitive. Counter-intuitive in that as long as you have a sprinkling from each of the necessary categories it is more important how you use it than the specific unit taken. I have not found any real duds in the dex (excluding perhaps banshees, still haven't gotten them to work). All the units people have been bagging on I have seen work really well if they are used in the correct fashion in the correct list (an example being the seer council from the dual deathstar list in an earlier Jy2 batrep, or Reec's WK). Did you find anything to be better or worse against nids than you imagined it to be?

lol no one is getting under my skin just saying that even though this is the internet etiquette should still be a factor. As for me commenting on the game...I can't until Jy2 posts the batrep other than the units did what I wanted them to do.

@Thread

It appears to be my opponent's wish NOT to dissect his list at this time so please respect his wishes. He heard your comments and responded in kind. Please do not push it further for the time being. At the very least, wait until after the battle report where you get a chance to see them in action before commenting on his list again. If he was truly looking for help with his list, there is an appropriate section where he could ask for it. Thanks.


I will finish my other batrep today and hopefully get started on this one. It was a very exciting game and I am just as eager to tell it as I am sure you are to reading it.

 ansacs wrote:
Should be an interesting game. Look forward to seeing the bat rep.

@Jy2 why no 4th flyrant? Run out of flyrant models? It actually would be interesting to see what would happen with a list like that. Either way looks like an interesting army. BTW if you ran four then you could call them the barbershop quartet.

Like I said in the intro, this game will be and has been played this past Friday.

There are a number of reasons why I didn't take 4 flyrants.

1. I wanted to experiment with the trygons/mawlocs once again.

2. Trygons/mawlocs make for great cannon fodder and fits my strategy of Positional Dominance really well. They will force you to direct your resources against them. You may kill them, but what most people don't realize is that their goal to to control/limit your Movement. They keep you boxed in in your own deployment zone and by the time you kill them, hopefully you will be out of position relative to the objectives.

3. While this is a practice game for a Tournament, I really don't know what type of player is my opponent. Not everyone who goes to a tournament is truly ultra-competitive and we have never even met or played each other until this game. Until I get to know my opponent a little more, sometimes, it's better not to bring a bazooka to a knife fight. Some people won't really appreciate it. 3 flyrants is already really tough to deal with.

 jy2 wrote:
@Thread

It appears to be my opponent's wish NOT to dissect his list at this time so please respect his wishes. He heard your comments and responded in kind. Please do not push it further for the time being. At the very least, wait until after the battle report where you get a chance to see them in action before commenting on his list again. If he was truly looking for help with his list, there is an appropriate section where he could ask for it. Thanks.

No problem, and again I want to state that on the internet even the most polite can come accross rude as there is no real gauge for tone when one is being straight forward like I usually am.



@GTKA666- I think your misunderstanding how a lot of these conversations snowball. Most comments are not directed at you directly, or at least I know mine are not. Rather I discuss things with the entire thread, so its easier just saying whats what rather then clumsily trying to hold a back and forth dialogue with everyone at once, or ignoring all others. So I apologize if my comments came across commanding and at you when rather if you look back and take it in the context that I am "thinking out loud" with the thread you will realize I am not picking on you.

That said, looking forward to the batrep, and be prepared for plenty of healthy and constructive Monday morning quarterbacking But realize that it is just that, Monday morning quarterbacking and everyone makes errors when they play the actual game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jy2 wrote:


There are a number of reasons why I didn't take 4 flyrants.

1. I wanted to experiment with the trygons/mawlocs once again.

2. Trygons/mawlocs make for great cannon fodder and fits my strategy of Positional Dominance really well. They will force you to direct your resources against them. You may kill them, but what most people don't realize is that their goal to to control/limit your Movement. They keep you boxed in in your own deployment zone and by the time you kill them, hopefully you will be out of position relative to the objectives.

3. While this is a practice game for a Tournament, I really don't know what type of player is my opponent. Not everyone who goes to a tournament is truly ultra-competitive and we have never even met or played each other until this game. Until I get to know my opponent a little more, sometimes, it's better not to bring a bazooka to a knife fight. Some people won't really appreciate it. 3 flyrants is already really tough to deal with.

All good reasons and I agree though you must admit a flyrant barber shop quartet does sound hilarious . Super pumped that you are giving the mawloc another go, I really think he gets over looked too often. Lets see how he does tough ha ha.

It is easy to overlook something when its usefulness can be decided by bad dice rolling. In our gaming group an Eldar player stopped using wraithguard after just two games, this under 5th edition rules. He played them correctly, but did not have luck.

I keep refreshing these two threads by jy2, but still no batreps.

Naw wrote:
It is easy to overlook something when its usefulness can be decided by bad dice rolling. In our gaming group an Eldar player stopped using wraithguard after just two games, this under 5th edition rules. He played them correctly, but did not have luck.

I keep refreshing these two threads by jy2, but still no batreps.

That's because he is currently working on his 1750 RTT batrep thread.

Thanks Jim. Though I should have asked you to bring a bazooka to the knife fight because that is what I was looking for! You still brought a RPG launcher though and can't wait to go up against your ATC tourney list sometime soon.

GTKA666 wrote:
Thanks Jim. Though I should have asked you to bring a bazooka to the knife fight because that is what I was looking for! You still brought a RPG launcher though and can't wait to go up against your ATC tourney list sometime soon.

I'd be happy to take a shot at playing you.

I'd love to play to! I am also going to the Golden Throne and would love to test my list against your Eldar.

Well pm me (both of you and anyone) and I will tell ya where I play at. I am always glad to take on people for fun and competitive testing .

 Red Corsair wrote:

All good reasons and I agree though you must admit a flyrant barber shop quartet does sound hilarious . Super pumped that you are giving the mawloc another go, I really think he gets over looked too often. Lets see how he does tough ha ha.

I decided to give the Mawloc another try thanks to this thread by Jifel:


Search for the anti-Tau: Mawlocs?

Naw wrote:
It is easy to overlook something when its usefulness can be decided by bad dice rolling. In our gaming group an Eldar player stopped using wraithguard after just two games, this under 5th edition rules. He played them correctly, but did not have luck.

I keep refreshing these two threads by jy2, but still no batreps.

Yeah, bud luck/experience with a unit is the quickest way to shelve it. That's what I did with Fateweaver early on with 6th Ed. Daemons. However, recently I started using him again and now I don't think my balanced, competitive daemons will be without him any more.

The report is coming soon. I already started on it.

GTKA666 wrote:
Thanks Jim. Though I should have asked you to bring a bazooka to the knife fight because that is what I was looking for! You still brought a RPG launcher though and can't wait to go up against your ATC tourney list sometime soon.

Still wouldn't have brought 4 flyrants mainly because I wanted my 3 alien worms. But next time, it may be a whole different ballgame.

As of now, I really don't know how my ATC list will do. I've only played 1 game with it so far. I need a lot more practice with it.

toocool61 wrote:
I'd love to play to! I am also going to the Golden Throne and would love to test my list against your Eldar.

Aren't you currently in SoCal? Well, if you ever do come up to NorCal, just give me or GTKA a PM and maybe we can get a game on.

o and jim I had the "seer of the shifting vector trait". the DS within 6" of warlord does not scatter.