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 Dannyevilguy wrote:
I am loving that the Exorcist is Toughness 13, has 11 Wounds and an Initiative of 10. They are really taking that everyone gets a monstrous creature thing to the extreme.

Similar for the Penitent Engine.
Toughness 11, 11 Wounds, and Initiative 10.

Also they both have armor saves of 3. Not 3+ mind you, they only make the armor save if you roll a 3 exactly.

Ahh good old standard GW editing protocols still in use.

Skriekr

I think people are overrating the condemnor gun already.

1) It is one shot only. Then regular bolter for the rest of the game.

2) Perils doesn't mean auto kill for multi-wound psykers. Daemons FMCs will have to be grounded and then you will have to spam the gun to knock one out and flying circus lists usually have 3-4. That's a lot more effort than if SoB had just gotten something with Skyfire.

3) Eldar can still mitigate perils with Ghosthelm. .

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Most units are cheaper, letting you take more.

My basic sisters will be more expensive if I keep the same layout, my dominions without simulacrum too, my HB retributors cost so much more, Celestine cost more, my conclave cost the same, Uriah cost more, my rhinos cost more, my seraphims cost more. My exorcist cost less, and my dominions with simulacrum cost 5 point less, but now the simulacrum is totally useless because they use flamethrower.
Units are cheaper if you don't outfit them the same way as you used to do.

New books and updates means you can't play units exactly the same way you used to. This is a constant of 40k. You cannot expect when an edition changes or a new book (or update) drops to play your lists exactly the same.

Yes, if you want to play the exact same list you did pre-update in the exact same way, with the exact same tactics than this new book is a nerf to that list.

Guess what? That happens to everyone.
I'm not mad that I can't field 60 redemptionists with 15 eviscerators and have them walk through an entire turn or two of fire and still assault you.
I'm not mad that my Axes of Retribution (which were on all my superiors) had to be trimmed off and put in the bits box.
I'm not mad that all my superiors have books on top of their backpacks to represent the BOSL and they can't all take it anymore.
Why? Because the book changed, I adapted and made new lists.

That isn't nerfing, that is changing. Now if the power level of the book dropped, that would be a nerf.

I think petre has a good handle the whole thing. We can bemoan what we lost, but the fact is that we gained a lot too. This isn't a straight nerf, it's at least a complicated matter and it'll take a bit to figure out what to play now. I'm still looking at things and scratching my head. Guess it's time to start sitting down and looking at building lists and seeing what they look like then.

It's a straight nerf if you think that the only way for Sisters to win is by comboing the Immortal Warlord with the Jacobus Bomb.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I think petre has a good handle the whole thing. We can bemoan what we lost, but the fact is that we gained a lot too. This isn't a straight nerf, it's at least a complicated matter and it'll take a bit to figure out what to play now. I'm still looking at things and scratching my head. Guess it's time to start sitting down and looking at building lists and seeing what they look like then.

Play enough 40k and you get well used to it. Every edition and new codex, I have a snap off bits and fit on new bits party. Repaint a bunch of dudes, strip some others , move some stuff to the 'not used' shelf, dust some other stuff off. This is just the way it is.

 pretre wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I think petre has a good handle the whole thing. We can bemoan what we lost, but the fact is that we gained a lot too. This isn't a straight nerf, it's at least a complicated matter and it'll take a bit to figure out what to play now. I'm still looking at things and scratching my head. Guess it's time to start sitting down and looking at building lists and seeing what they look like then.

Play enough 40k and you get well used to it. Every edition and new codex, I have a snap off bits and fit on new bits party. Repaint a bunch of dudes, strip some others , move some stuff to the 'not used' shelf, dust some other stuff off. This is just the way it is.

I'm used to things change, it's just ekeing out what works for me that takes me a little time.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I'm used to things change, it's just ekeing out what works for me that takes me a little time.

Yeah, definitely. I'm going to try to get a game in this weekend with the 40 arco list and see how that goes.

It's weird not being the most cynical person in the thread for once. I... kind of like the new codex? the changes made it much better than the 5th edition WD dex, and I might even try to get back in to the game because of it.

I kind of want to take a couple full sized units of Arcos to screen my army with. But that might be better for foot-horde Sisters.

I like them for under 400pts , I can get a lot of cheap meltas in rhinos ,the fact the some scout and can potentialy ignore cover is just a bonus .

 pretre wrote:
New books and updates means you can't play units exactly the same way you used to.

It's true. But still, I don't think the global change has been toward lower point cost per model. Some models went down (most notably arcoflagellants, heavy flamers, Exorcist and, above all, priests), other went up (most notably Sister Superior Veteran, rhinos, heavy bolter, and above all Celestine), but I don't feel like I will field more model. I tried a list, and it has actually the very same number of models, even though not with the same repartition or wargear.
Too bad I won't get the chance to play it in the few next weeks.

 pretre wrote:
Play enough 40k and you get well used to it. Every edition and new codex, I have a snap off bits and fit on new bits party. Repaint a bunch of dudes, strip some others , move some stuff to the 'not used' shelf, dust some other stuff off. This is just the way it is.

Well, it's just my second codex change, even though I've been playing 40k for 9 years .

 Melissia wrote:
It's weird not being the most cynical person in the thread for once.

That's because I'm around !

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 pretre wrote:
New books and updates means you can't play units exactly the same way you used to.

It's true. But still, I don't think the global change has been toward lower point cost per model. Some models went down (most notably arcoflagellants, heavy flamers, Exorcist and, above all, priests), other went up (most notably Sister Superior Veteran, rhinos, heavy bolter, and above all Celestine), but I don't feel like I will field more model. I tried a list, and it has actually the very same number of models, even though not with the same repartition or wargear.
Too bad I won't get the chance to play it in the few next weeks.

Not everything is about cost though. Even if your cost stays the same or drops, if your role changes that's a change in the type of list you can field. Simply taking a WD list and making it with the Digital dex is not going to work out too well.

You need to start over and build new lists.

I agree every codex things change 4th edition nids to 5th then 6th,

But I do think overall Sisters has always been a hard one to compete with and I think this codex make it harder. I understand that lists change, but I think as a whole the sisters got worse.. but I am just being cynical I guess. Will I still play them? yes

Thanks for all the feedback guys

People said that about the White Dwarf dex though and I proved them wrong.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 pretre wrote:
New books and updates means you can't play units exactly the same way you used to.

It's true. But still, I don't think the global change has been toward lower point cost per model. Some models went down (most notably arcoflagellants, heavy flamers, Exorcist and, above all, priests), other went up (most notably Sister Superior Veteran, rhinos, heavy bolter, and above all Celestine), but I don't feel like I will field more model. I tried a list, and it has actually the very same number of models, even though not with the same repartition or wargear.
Too bad I won't get the chance to play it in the few next weeks.

Want to know a secret?

The Veteran upgrade on the Superior isn't worth it. She can take a combi-weapon without it, and it's just a +1 attack +1 Ld bonus... considering that for the price of four Veterans, you can get rerolls to Morale, Fear and Pinning tests, it's really not that good an upgrade on a shooty squad.

Eiliuj is a very negative person. I think he's an Eldar spy sent to demoralise us.

Veteran Superior is occasionally useful for units that need to make their faith check reliably. (Dominions, is my thought)

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 pretre wrote:
New books and updates means you can't play units exactly the same way you used to.

It's true. But still, I don't think the global change has been toward lower point cost per model. Some models went down (most notably arcoflagellants, heavy flamers, Exorcist and, above all, priests), other went up (most notably Sister Superior Veteran, rhinos, heavy bolter, and above all Celestine), but I don't feel like I will field more model. I tried a list, and it has actually the very same number of models, even though not with the same repartition or wargear.
Too bad I won't get the chance to play it in the few next weeks.

Want to know a secret?

The Veteran upgrade on the Superior isn't worth it. She can take a combi-weapon without it, and it's just a +1 attack +1 Ld bonus... considering that for the price of four Veterans, you can get rerolls to Morale, Fear and Pinning tests, it's really not that good an upgrade on a shooty squad.

Eiliuj is a very negative person. I think he's an Eldar spy sent to demoralise us.

Probably still mad about those Warp Spiders. I can't imagine getting run over by an Immolator is good for Spirit Stones.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 pretre wrote:
New books and updates means you can't play units exactly the same way you used to.

It's true. But still, I don't think the global change has been toward lower point cost per model. Some models went down (most notably arcoflagellants, heavy flamers, Exorcist and, above all, priests), other went up (most notably Sister Superior Veteran, rhinos, heavy bolter, and above all Celestine), but I don't feel like I will field more model. I tried a list, and it has actually the very same number of models, even though not with the same repartition or wargear.
Too bad I won't get the chance to play it in the few next weeks.

Want to know a secret?

The Veteran upgrade on the Superior isn't worth it. She can take a combi-weapon without it, and it's just a +1 attack +1 Ld bonus... considering that for the price of four Veterans, you can get rerolls to Morale, Fear and Pinning tests, it's really not that good an upgrade on a shooty squad.

Eiliuj is a very negative person. I think he's an Eldar spy sent to demoralise us.

How am I such a negative person?

My first love is to the Eldar, so in a way I guess I am a spy....
Those warp spiders did not like getting flamed and run over by the immolator, but their pride prevented them from seeing the threat... Though that 3up armour should have saved a few of them... Nice reference to the the paragraph in there
Did anyone notice that a certain Priest is no longer in the codex army list, but he got a little side paragraph next to Jacobus?

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
Did anyone notice that a certain Priest is no longer in the codex army list, but he got a little side paragraph next to Jacobus?

Yeah, there's been a lot of back and forth on that one. No concrete info but a lot of theories.

Yeah, we all noticed Kyrinov is gone. I think it's in reaction to his mold not getting renewed.

I mean Eldrad got killed off and he is still in all the codexes

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
I mean Eldrad got killed off and he is still in all the codexes

Most of the theories have more to do with the actual physical model being retired and not the fluff character.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Yeah, we all noticed Kyrinov is gone. I think it's in reaction to his mold not getting renewed.

What does that mean? GW owns all the molds don't they? Why would they stop making a character... I was looking forward to seeing what they did with him

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Yeah, we all noticed Kyrinov is gone. I think it's in reaction to his mold not getting renewed.

What does that mean? GW owns all the molds don't they? Why would they stop making a character... I was looking forward to seeing what they did with him

Molds cost money and ehen they wear out they have to consider to make a new one or not. If they plan on putting Sisters out in full plastic then they will likely not renew molds unless they have too (Bolter Sisters for instance) so they don't waste money on something they won't use for its full lifespan.

That is speclation though.

pretre wrote:Veteran Superior is occasionally useful for units that need to make their faith check reliably. (Dominions, is my thought)

In a way, that even fits to the fluff. Dominions are more elite than rank and file Battle Sisters. VSS should never have been regarded as "the standard" - that was a poor representation of how an Order is run.

Now it feels more like an option, and you having to decide where to apply a Veteran's expertise precisely - or just living with the consequences of running a smaller, but more experienced army.

ClockworkZion wrote:I think petre has a good handle the whole thing. We can bemoan what we lost, but the fact is that we gained a lot too. This isn't a straight nerf, it's at least a complicated matter and it'll take a bit to figure out what to play now.

Yeah. I don't like all the changes, and I think the new Acts of Faith are the worst version of them we ever had (which is a bit critical, given that they are a rather important mechanic of the army), but all in all I still think that this list is better than the 5E Minidex. Getting back most of the wargear we lost alone is worth a lot, and together with the changes to the Command Squad it makes the Canoness viable again. <3

D6Damager wrote:I think people are overrating the condemnor gun already.

The biggest hype on the net seems to come from those that are utterly unaware of it not being a new piece of gear, and I agree that the the craziest comments about "omg wicked OP!" do overrate it. Still, with the lower point cost and the fact you only need to hit, not even wound, to trigger Perils is a huge change that will surely make this weapon something that is actually picked by people, unlike previously.

Furyou Miko wrote:

Is ... is that a beard?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Yeah, we all noticed Kyrinov is gone. I think it's in reaction to his mold not getting renewed.

What does that mean? GW owns all the molds don't they? Why would they stop making a character... I was looking forward to seeing what they did with him

Molds cost money and ehen they wear out they have to consider to make a new one or not. If they plan on putting Sisters out in full plastic then they will likely not renew molds unless they have too (Bolter Sisters for instance) so they don't waste money on something they won't use for its full lifespan.

That is speclation though.

Thanks for the info. I had not thought of that, thank you for taking the time to explain it... In my ignorance I thought once you had a mold, it did not have to be redone. I am glad I have a Kyrinov then, but will not get to use him now...

 Lynata wrote:
I think the new Acts of Faith are the worst version of them we ever had (which is a bit critical, given that they are a rather important mechanic of the army),

Start of 3rd edition black book rules. That was the worst.

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Yeah, we all noticed Kyrinov is gone. I think it's in reaction to his mold not getting renewed.

What does that mean? GW owns all the molds don't they? Why would they stop making a character... I was looking forward to seeing what they did with him

Molds cost money and ehen they wear out they have to consider to make a new one or not. If they plan on putting Sisters out in full plastic then they will likely not renew molds unless they have too (Bolter Sisters for instance) so they don't waste money on something they won't use for its full lifespan.

That is speclation though.

Thanks for the info. I had not thought of that, thank you for taking the time to explain it... In my ignorance I thought once you had a mold, it did not have to be redone. I am glad I have a Kyrinov then, but will not get to use him now...

Molds for metal models wear out the fastest because their rubber and get bent and flexed to empty them, so they develop tiny craks and lose bits and eventually have to get replaced. That's part of the reason the models have flash.

Kyrinov can still get use....as a generic priest who nicked his stuff.

pretre wrote:Start of 3rd edition black book rules. That was the worst.

That's actually the one version of their rules that I have never seen! I have the codices, I have the Chapter Approved list, I even have the pre-codex White Dwarf rules where a Battle Sister still had T4 (take that, Space Marines ) ...

How did faith work in the 3E rulebook version?