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Tau tears are delicious.

Having seen the stats of the Knight, it doesn't appear to be broken at all. It's big and nasty in melee, so that's why it must be intimidating.

AV13 (front armor only), 6HP and a 4++ (only on one side) can be pretty durable, but its nothing really impressive once you consider it's 375 points.

Figured this would happen...

Just like everyones response to Flyers was better AA and Counter Flyers, which leads to Double and Triple Flyers, leaving me to HAVE to get a Double Heldrake list that everyone was so afraid of facing in the first place...

Once everyone develops counters for Knights, Chaos will get them so everyone expecting them will be ready to kill Chaos Knights instead.

danp164 wrote:
"Can you please not use that as I Cannot afford to buy/proxy a model capable of dealing with it and it would render the game unbalanced and therefore pointless"

This is arguably acceptable

How so?

 Gitsmasher wrote:

danp164 wrote:
"Can you please not use that as I Cannot afford to buy/proxy a model capable of dealing with it and it would render the game unbalanced and therefore pointless"

This is arguably acceptable

How so?

Because it is saying "in the interest of having a fair and enjoyable game, would you mind not using that as I don't have anything that can deal with it" which is a fairly reasonable request and will likely mean both players have a more challenging and enjoyable game.

$170 for a shelf ornament? Ugh, no thanks. I'd bring the damn thing anyway and tell everyone to stop acting like whiny sissies.

In my view Superheavies should be reserved for Apocalypse, or at least large over 2000pts or so with mutual agreement. I'm not going to play against superheavies unless its an Apocalypse game. I'm by no means a WAAC player. I don't use the most powerful units and internet lists, or min-max my lists to be a hard counter to other popular lists. I'm a Raven Guard player who always plays a fluffy army, focusing on Scouts, Tactical Squads and Sternguard Veterans, Assault Squads and Vanguard Veterans, Devestators, Drop Pods, Land Speeders, a single Stormtalon etc. When I play a game I want it to be enjoyable, and I don't imagine facing Superheavies in say a 1500pt game can be much fun.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
$170 for a shelf ornament? Ugh, no thanks. I'd bring the damn thing anyway and tell everyone to stop acting like whiny sissies.

And they'll tell you to shove it where the sun don't shine. Bluster all you like, other players are not obliged to play against you in a friendly setting. If they don't want to play against a Superheavy in a normal game of 40K, they don't have to play with you.

Go play at a tournament if you want captive opponents.

Knights are powerful, but they're hardly overpowered. They'll go down to the usual anti-vehicle things. Hit them with a melta squad on the vulnerable sides.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
In my view Superheavies should be reserved for Apocalypse, or at least large over 2000pts or so with mutual agreement. I'm not going to play against superheavies unless its an Apocalypse game.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
$170 for a shelf ornament? Ugh, no thanks. I'd bring the damn thing anyway and tell everyone to stop acting like whiny sissies.

And they'll tell you to shove it where the sun don't shine. Bluster all you like, other players are not obliged to play against you in a friendly setting. If they don't want to play against a Superheavy in a normal game of 40K, they don't have to play with you.

Go play at a tournament if you want captive opponents.

Then I'll declare myself the best 40k player in the store and have everyone else buy me chips, coffee, and also assemble my models. They won't have a choice because they're be too scurred of mah Knight!

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Then I'll declare myself the best 40k player in the store and have everyone else buy me chips, coffee, and also assemble my models. They won't have a choice because they're be too scurred of mah Knight!

And everyone in the room will back away and make excuses to leave.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Then I'll declare myself the best 40k player in the store and have everyone else buy me chips, coffee, and also assemble my models. They won't have a choice because they're be too scurred of mah Knight!

And everyone in the room will back away and make excuses to leave.

They won't be able to - my Knight will be guarding the doors and will viciously murder anyone who tries to leave without my express written consent. Seriously, they're so scared of the thing, they'll definitely have to obey.

 TedNugent wrote:
This thing is a disaster for Orks.

Heh. Necron Monolith - Av14 all around and can auto-kill anything (regardless of toughness and wounds) that comes within assault range. Even before the update, going against a triple monolith list was an automatic loss for my orks unless I drowned them in deffrollas. We are lucky they're a rare sight now.

There are quite a lot of things in 40k that are "a disaster for orks", remaining stuck with a 4th ed. codex being one of them.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Gitsmasher wrote:

danp164 wrote:
"Can you please not use that as I Cannot afford to buy/proxy a model capable of dealing with it and it would render the game unbalanced and therefore pointless"

This is arguably acceptable

How so?

Because it is saying "in the interest of having a fair and enjoyable game, would you mind not using that as I don't have anything that can deal with it" which is a fairly reasonable request and will likely mean both players have a more challenging and enjoyable game.

Sounds to me like the people your describing are in the wrong hobby. 40k ant cheap and if you have the money to buy these legal models and legal armies, nobody regardless of their economic standing (lol) has a valid reason to say no.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
And they'll tell you to shove it where the sun don't shine. Bluster all you like, other players are not obliged to play against you in a friendly setting. If they don't want to play against a Superheavy in a normal game of 40K, they don't have to play with you.

Go play at a tournament if you want captive opponents.

Sure, and I'm not obliged to play against ork players in a normal game of 40K, either.

Because an IK army is just as "standard" in a "normal" game of 40K as an ork army is. Word of God (GW) says so.

So sure. If I put my knights on the table and some beta says that they refuse to play me, that's their right, so long as they admit that the grounds for their refusal isn't any different from the justification for refusing to play an IG player, or a Space Marine player, or a player of any other standard 40K army using standard 40K units.

- - - - - - -

Anyway, RE: the Knight OP argument. It's only AV13, and you only need one penetrating hit and a decent roll to pop it. I wouldn't call the Knight OP anymore than I'd call a Land Raider OP, especially for its cost.

I have never won a game of 40k (I usualy only play annihilation) if some one brought in a knight, I would lose, but I would still play.

 Gitsmasher wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Gitsmasher wrote:

danp164 wrote:
"Can you please not use that as I Cannot afford to buy/proxy a model capable of dealing with it and it would render the game unbalanced and therefore pointless"

This is arguably acceptable

How so?

Because it is saying "in the interest of having a fair and enjoyable game, would you mind not using that as I don't have anything that can deal with it" which is a fairly reasonable request and will likely mean both players have a more challenging and enjoyable game.

Sounds to me like the people your describing are in the wrong hobby. 40k ant cheap and if you have the money to buy these legal models and legal armies, nobody regardless of their economic standing (lol) has a valid reason to say no.

So 40k should be pay to win?

Some people may be able to afford to buy some models but not every new model out there. I don't think its unreasonable to come to an arrangement with your opponent where you both have a reasonable choice of winning. Whats the point of playing a game where the outcome is decided before the first model is moved?

Anyone has a valid reason to say no to whatever the hell they want if them not saying no will certainly lead to them not enjoying the game, why would someone waste several hours of time playing a match they wont enjoy? They are not obliged to play you any more than you are obliged to agree to their request.

Personally I think the people in the OP should at least play against the thing before writing it off. Surely it would be fun to at least see what it can do.

 carlos13th wrote:

 Gitsmasher wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Gitsmasher wrote:

danp164 wrote:
"Can you please not use that as I Cannot afford to buy/proxy a model capable of dealing with it and it would render the game unbalanced and therefore pointless"

This is arguably acceptable

How so?

Because it is saying "in the interest of having a fair and enjoyable game, would you mind not using that as I don't have anything that can deal with it" which is a fairly reasonable request and will likely mean both players have a more challenging and enjoyable game.

Sounds to me like the people your describing are in the wrong hobby. 40k ant cheap and if you have the money to buy these legal models and legal armies, nobody regardless of their economic standing (lol) has a valid reason to say no.

So 40k should be pay to win?

Welcome to planet earth where he who has the most money wins!

Enjoy your stay

That and I thought winning wasn't important to the casual/economically challenged crowd? If wining does indeed matter then step your game up, work overtime, save money to buy a counter to that. Or if winning isn't important to the same crowd, then take your losses like a man.

Really the Knights are scary but perfectly reasonable to take out for all but two armies, Orks and Nids. Orks just can't deal with that kind of armor easily and Tyranids best option is to tar pit it, which is easier said than done when it has a 12" move and 2 battle cannons to eliminate swarms. A brood of carnifex can do some nice damage to it on the charge but..will likely die in the ensuing combat.

If I were playing my sisters, or chaos, or any of my other armies I would be interested in playing a game against the Knights. If I went into my FLGS with my Nids and someone wanted to play me with their Knight, I would kindly suggest they play a different player, if they were the only potential opponent I MIGHT consider it but more than likely I would just head home rather than waste the next two hours being tabled.

Isn't the basic principle of this game based on fighting other peoples' cool models with your own cool models? Why are people whining about dealing with an AV13 model that you can draw LOS to from anywhere on the board? Do people refuse to play against Soul Grinders too? Or...all Necron vehicles? It's two Leman Russes taped together for three times the price and you can tie it up all day in melee, oh noes!

Edited by AgeOfEgos--this really doesn't further the discussion.

The only reasonable excuse I can make for the whining is that its a defensive mechanism developed from getting brutalized by some of the previous giant robot kits, and seeing another big stompy thing on the table just triggers a psychotic breakdown.

I am running skyblight Nids w/ 4 Harpies and 2 Crones. I wouldn't mind seeing a Knight. As a matter of fact I hope to see them.

Nids FMC do a number on knights with ease and a brood of fexes should wreck it with ease though will loose a fex in the process. Orks mega nobs just destroy it on the charge... Much like most vehicles


Automatically Appended Next Post:

barnowl wrote:
A riptide really does not compare to a knight.Between the 4++ save, AV 13, 9 "wounds", and D melee weapon the Knight is a much much stronger unit with the ability to one shot the RIptide in melee.

The knight is not really balanced in a pre-escalation game as it is a super heavy so has to use escalation rules, and even ranged At of S10 AP1 is going to take a lot to bring it down. Far more than a 375 point model warrants. Not to mention some of the armies have no way to reliable bring 1 down in 6 turns, much less an army of 6.

For the record, no - it does not use escalation at all as it is not a lord of war. Like every codex it has the full army specific rules included in the codex. These bare a striking similarity to escalation in places but do not follow them completely

Honestly, talk to the other player about it. Communication is key to successful gaming. Be courteous but tell them in no uncertain terms what your problem is. At a minimum both sides will know where one another stand.

barnowl wrote:
A riptide really does not compare to a knight.Between the 4++ save, AV 13, 9 "wounds", and D melee weapon the Knight is a much much stronger unit with the ability to one shot the RIptide in melee.

The knight is not really balanced in a pre-escalation game as it is a super heavy so has to use escalation rules, and even ranged At of S10 AP1 is going to take a lot to bring it down. Far more than a 375 point model warrants. Not to mention some of the armies have no way to reliable bring 1 down in 6 turns, much less an army of 6.

Errrrrrrrr.

6 wounds. It's 6 hull points. Not 9.

Not saying it's on par with a Riptide, but it is on par with 2. You can also take cover saves against any weaponry either knight is packing, while all a Riptide has to do to blow apart anything you've got is have some other squad get at least 2 markerlights on it.

TLDR I think riptides compare quite favorably to knights. Both shrug off small arms fire, Riptides have better saving throws against anything not AP2 or better and is actually harder to wound if it takes Feel No Pain than it is to make a hull point damage stick on to a Knight.

@BrianDavion: Cheaper? A Stompa is 770 points, man. An errant would love to go up against a Stompa because there's a good chance it kills the Stompa if it shoots it's melta blast at it then also charges it in combat. It'd probably be mutually assured destruction, but I'll sack 370 points to blow up 770 any day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Badablack wrote:
Isn't the basic principle of this game based on fighting other peoples' cool models with your own cool models? Why are people whining about dealing with an AV13 model that you can draw LOS to from anywhere on the board? Do people refuse to play against Soul Grinders too? Or...all Necron vehicles? It's two Leman Russes taped together for three times the price and you can tie it up all day in melee, oh noes!

It's like a circle of morose angry little men with their hands over their ears screaming red-faced at anyone who brings something new to the table.

The only reasonable excuse I can make for the whining is that its a defensive mechanism developed from getting brutalized by some of the previous giant robot kits, and seeing another big stompy thing on the table just triggers a psychotic breakdown.

Have an exalt. This, exactly.

I got tired of fielding my Dark Angels army because I got stomped every game by daemon princes, heldrakes, riptides, wave serpents and Wraithknights. Now I've got a way to combat those somewhat if I ally in a Knight, which I fully plan on doing. For me, it finally evens the odds a tiny bit.

I got tired of fielding my Dark Angels army because I got stomped every game by daemon princes, heldrakes, riptides, wave serpents and Wraithknights. Now I've got a way to combat those somewhat if I ally in a Knight, which I fully plan on doing. For me, it finally evens the odds a tiny bit.

Exactly my thought. The IK will even the odds a bit. A conventional SM force will benefit from such a model.

I meant cheaper as in dollar cost. the stompa costs about 130 bucks vs the knights 170.

I agree point for point the knight is better but...

 Badablack wrote:
Isn't the basic principle of this game based on fighting other peoples' cool models with your own cool models? Why are people whining about dealing with an AV13 model that you can draw LOS to from anywhere on the board? Do people refuse to play against Soul Grinders too? Or...all Necron vehicles? It's two Leman Russes taped together for three times the price and you can tie it up all day in melee, oh noes!
.

Utterly untrue. It helps if you read the actual rules.

For instance, the stomp rules. You can't "tie this thing up all day in melee." You are in for a rude awakening.

Or the fact that it ignores all damage table results on successful penetrations, and only takes D3 hull points on an "explodes" result. Or the fact that it has a directional 4+ invulnerable save against shooting.

It's melee weapon ignores all invulnerable and armor saves and inflicts instant death or auto-pen on I4, which means any close-combat anti-tank is not an option, including walkers, Monstrous Creatures, Nobz, Warbosses and Terminator Squads. It's stomp removes all models on a 6+, and subsequent to death it leaves a blast template crater just to finish the job.

By contrast, no one would be confused as far as how you take out a Leman Russ battle tank in close combat. You simply assault it with a Power Fist.

These people are doing you a favour by refusing to play you. They are seemingly only interested in their own enjoyment (through the shallow ego boost of a loaded dice game) and expect their 'friends' to make compromises while making no concessions themselves.

I hope you can find other players to have fun with in the mean time.

 randomtoaster wrote:
So in no uncertain terms, i've been told by many players in my local club, they'll refuse to play me if I bring my Knight titan. Played this Tau guy, play him most weeks and generally he'll win (general camping Tau tactics, smart missiles, marker lights, riptides etc.) this time I tore him apart with my Storm Raven/IK combo, now hes saying he won't play me again. Now everytime I get tabled by him (it's not hard when i'm running a 12 model list...) I don't moan, I just take it in my stride, I don't care it's all fun. However, since he played something he didn't know how to deal with right away, he's gonna refuse any games from now on.
This other guy too, who brings stuff from stronghold assault without even asking his opponent (i know its part of 40k now, but its common courtesy) says he won't play me either. Yet, he is one of the most try hard WAAC players, he's the most irritant person to play against, however he's a challenge.

I can understand the worry of coming up against a super heavy with D strength weapons, but really it's not invincible in the slightest. You won't know how to take it down, unless you've come across one. Has anyone else had this problem so far?

Just tell him this "Okay, Since you veto'd one of my units, I get to Veto one of yours..."

See how long he is willing to not let you take the Knight in a game.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Just tell him this "Okay, Since you veto'd one of my units, I get to Veto one of yours..."

See how long he is willing to not let you take the Knight in a game.

Sounds fair. I think we'd have an improved game if this were standard procedure.

 randomtoaster wrote:
So in no uncertain terms, i've been told by many players in my local club, they'll refuse to play me if I bring my Knight titan. Played this Tau guy, play him most weeks and generally he'll win (general camping Tau tactics, smart missiles, marker lights, riptides etc.) this time I tore him apart with my Storm Raven/IK combo, now hes saying he won't play me again. Now everytime I get tabled by him (it's not hard when i'm running a 12 model list...) I don't moan, I just take it in my stride, I don't care it's all fun. However, since he played something he didn't know how to deal with right away, he's gonna refuse any games from now on.
This other guy too, who brings stuff from stronghold assault without even asking his opponent (i know its part of 40k now, but its common courtesy) says he won't play me either. Yet, he is one of the most try hard WAAC players, he's the most irritant person to play against, however he's a challenge.

I can understand the worry of coming up against a super heavy with D strength weapons, but really it's not invincible in the slightest. You won't know how to take it down, unless you've come across one. Has anyone else had this problem so far?

Tell him to git gud.

On a serious note, if he's honestly fielding a competitive tau list and he's not prepared to adjust his army to take down armor then he doesn't sound like a fun player to go against competitive or otherwise. They're really not that hard to kill even if Tau struggle against heavy armor, but this is armor 13/12 and costs a significant amount of points. Deadly? Yes. Hard to counter / kill? Hardly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TedNugent wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Just tell him this "Okay, Since you veto'd one of my units, I get to Veto one of yours..."

See how long he is willing to not let you take the Knight in a game.

Sounds fair. I think we'd have an improved game if this were standard procedure.

I've thought about trying some games with my friends with unit bans. Where each player gets 2 units bans that aren't FOC compulsory. Not sure how it would play really, but the idea of being able to meta strategy your opponent is interesting. Even though the majority of players think that meta gameplay is a bad thing.

If I was playing Tau I would see the IK as a legitimate challenge. There is so much high strength shooting in that Codex that it'd be pointless to complain. The only thing different you'd have to do is check your unit spacing to give him small targets for blast templates and assaults and maybe add a meltagun unit.

I would play against an IK if I was playing Tau. It could be fun.