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 hotsauceman1 wrote:
And eventually the Kids with Autism will have to understand that waits exist.

Sounds like you have limited experience with individuals with Autism, and certainly don't have any in your immediate family...

 Alpharius wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
And eventually the Kids with Autism will have to understand that waits exist.

Sounds like you have limited experience with individuals with Autism, and certainly don't have any in your immediate family...

WRONG!!!!!
My nephew does, he has it. He hates waiting, but when we went to DL, he learned he had to. Are we going to start accomadating for people who ca tolerate waiting? Is there going to soon be a special checkout counter? Special Lane to Avoid traffic? Waiting is unavoidable, they will have to learn it is part of life. I find it funny people saying "I can only get on 4-5 rides a day" Um hello lady, its the same for normal people too.

 Hulksmash wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
And having watched people that are obviously healthy walk up and take a spot on a ride you've been waiting 1-2 hours for is something I'd say most park goers have experienced at one time or another. Which only lowers my sympathy for the people involved in this suit. The new system is fair. If you child isn't healthy enough be able to function under it at the new park then sorry, maybe it isn't the place for him/her.

This kind of crap annoys the stuffing out of me. How do you know someone is "obviously healthy"? Oh that's right, I forgot, only people in wheelchairs or with obvious deformities are really disabled, the rest are "disabled" as Polonius put it. And yeah, damnit, why can't these crips and nuttos just know their place and stay away from places where normal people go? I mean christ, these autistic types coming along to a theme park and expecting to be treated in a way that mildly inconveniences people so they can have an experience that would otherwise be denied to them, how bloody inconsiderate can you get!

As for the system being "abused", lets see some proof. Not anecdotal nonsense about how that one time, at band camp, you saw a person that could walk normally and didn't have a massive public breakdown within the ten seconds they were within your line of sight skip a queue; evidence. You know what I'll bet? I'll bet that when you look at the statistics, you'll find exactly the same thing you find when you look at social security for the sick and disabled - fraud is a tiny fraction, often costing the system less than is lost through basic paperwork errors, and that the perception people have that the system is groaning under the unbearable weight of chancers, schemers, liars, and cheats all gaming it is a crock, based on the ignorance and biases of the perceiver.

Unaccompanied minors is a start for an indication there isn't anything seriously wrong with them...Just saying before you get all high and mighty. Also, having spent a significant amount of time with high functioning disabled people it's not hard to spot the difference.

As for numbers do you think Disneyland (one of the most wired places on earth) didn't have those numbers before making the changes it did. It doesn't cost them anything to have people cutting. In fact, the change might cost them money at the expense of real fairness.

^this. The biggest indication is indeed unaccompanied minors.

Disney runs a very tight ship... they know their gak.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
And having watched people that are obviously healthy walk up and take a spot on a ride you've been waiting 1-2 hours for is something I'd say most park goers have experienced at one time or another. Which only lowers my sympathy for the people involved in this suit. The new system is fair. If you child isn't healthy enough be able to function under it at the new park then sorry, maybe it isn't the place for him/her.

This kind of crap annoys the stuffing out of me. How do you know someone is "obviously healthy"? Oh that's right, I forgot, only people in wheelchairs or with obvious deformities are really disabled, the rest are "disabled" as Polonius put it. And yeah, damnit, why can't these crips and nuttos just know their place and stay away from places where normal people go? I mean christ, these autistic types coming along to a theme park and expecting to be treated in a way that mildly inconveniences people so they can have an experience that would otherwise be denied to them, how bloody inconsiderate can you get!

You don't see the possibility of having people perpetually occupying seats without rotating out for a while being potentially damaging to the flow of already overbooked rides? I'm all for treating people as fairly as possible, but that includes the hundreds of people in line that now have even moreso increased wait periods.

Consider: Kid is autistic, will probably ride that things for hours if allowed. I'm about to pull numbers out of a hat. Bear with me. Suppose each ride is five minutes, and allows for 10 people to ride at a time. I don't know if those are realistic times, or realistic ride capacities. I don't do these kinds of places. Numbers aside, kid (and mom (and dad?)) ride the ride every possible instance for a lengthy period of time. There's a person who is 100th in line to ride. He would have been on in 50 minutes. Not great, but you expect these things, right? With the mom, dad, and kid, and assuming that there's only the mom and kid doing this on the ride, it now takes him 21 minutes extra to actually get to the ride. If you cut it down to just the mom and kid, it's about 12 and a half extra minutes. I'm not sure the number of people you have that would do this at disneyland (it's enough that they needed to change the policy, apparently), but if you had one of these situations on every ride, suddenly you have a 20-40% increase in wait times across the board, which means that your entertainment value for your tickets reduced by a very not mild amount of inconvenience.

Course, if you want to give up your spot...

 Medium of Death wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
*Snip*

Too bad so sad, eh?

Disingenuous examples are disingenuous.

Next time read what you critique rather than just get angsty while skipreading and end up completely missing the point.

 Orlanth wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
*Snip*

Too bad so sad, eh?

Disingenuous examples are disingenuous.

Next time read what you critique rather than just get angsty while skipreading and end up completely missing the point.

No I got your point, but you were using ridiculous examples. Obviously there comes a point where it isn't feasible to include all people in these massive systems, but the examples you give aren't really relevant, appropriate or covered by legislation.

Orlanth wrote:This phenomena needs a philosopical rather than a legislative solution.

Things will go a lot better if it becomes more clearly understood that you can legislate against discrimination, but you cannot legislate away disability.

As a philosophical point we can explore it further, does a bed ridden paraplegic have the right to be accommodated for every facility at Disney, or anywhere else. Obviously not, you cant expect Disney to make every ride accessible from a mobile bed, Mary Poppins notwithstanding.

Once we have established you cannot cater for absolutely everyone then you have to set realistic thresholds as to what can be achieved. If rides require waiting and some disabilities make waiting intolerable then it may have an unresolvable impasse. Queue removal creates a privilege situation which is inconsistent with equality legislation.

Service providers must have a point at which they can set thresholds for disability inclusion which some unfortunates will remain beyond.

After all if the US government, which has a duty to do more than anyone else to provide access for the disabled; are still after all these years are yet to build even a single wheelchair accessible air-superiority fighter, then why cannot a private company determine a threshold at which it is no longer practical to provide disability support.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Sounds like you have limited experience with individuals with Autism, and certainly don't have any in your immediate family...

WRONG!!!!!
My nephew does, he has it. He hates waiting, but when we went to DL, he learned he had to. Are we going to start accomadating for people who ca tolerate waiting? Is there going to soon be a special checkout counter? Special Lane to Avoid traffic? Waiting is unavoidable, they will have to learn it is part of life. I find it funny people saying "I can only get on 4-5 rides a day" Um hello lady, its the same for normal people too.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
And eventually the Kids with Autism will have to understand that waits exist.

Sounds like you have limited experience with individuals with Autism, and certainly don't have any in your immediate family...

WRONG!!!!!
My nephew does, he has it. He hates waiting, but when we went to DL, he learned he had to. Are we going to start accomadating for people who ca tolerate waiting? Is there going to soon be a special checkout counter? Special Lane to Avoid traffic? Waiting is unavoidable, they will have to learn it is part of life. I find it funny people saying "I can only get on 4-5 rides a day" Um hello lady, its the same for normal people too.

Your glib comments show a shockng lack of understanding then.

I can only hope your nephew doesn't spend a lot of time with you.

And given your attitude, I'd imagine that's the case.

This is going to be perceived by some as an insensitive comment but I'll make it anyway.

There has to be a reasonable expectation for others to enjoy their time out as well, not just those that suffer from disabilities. It's like the person in the back of the theater, holding a screaming baby. The baby can't control itself and I understand that those with severe autism aren't able to either but I won't take a young baby into a theater either. The reason being that my family's enjoyment should not deprive others of the same.

I'm not advocating locking those with such disabilities away and forgetting about them. All I'm saying is that when a system that was set in place to help those affected people starts to be abused, it's time to change the system. Disney seems to have done so in a reasonable manner and if people don't like the change, they can vote with their wallets and not go.

 daedalus wrote:


Sounds like your nephew is pretty high functioning, actually. From what understand, a lot of autistic children completely fall apart for, like, no apparent reason. There's not really any sort of discipline or attempt at modifying behavior that can be done to make much of a difference.

An autistic child is certainly a hell I'd not wish on anyone.

I'm going to have to step in for a moment here, but your position on autism and autistic children is not as complete as you might think it is. In fact, to just say "there's no modifying the behavior" is wrong on a whole lot of levels. It is very much what you'd call an elastic condition, in that there is a great deal of variance even in an individual depending on the treatment and therapy they get. To cite my own experience, I worked with autistic children for about 5/6 years (back when I was in high school and college) in a pretty simple program of regular swimming lessons. Was I involved in the medical side of things? Certainly not, I was there as a swimming instructor and found myself as something of a coach to the kids (which eventually became me working directly one on one) that I taught.

The thing of it is that the attention I gave over that course of time, even though it was for an hour or two a week at most, did have an impact on the children I worked with. When I got to working one on one with them, you'd have children who did occasionally break down as you said for no real reason, but after a long stretch of this work, that behavior eventually left. I went from having kids who needed to be walked out the door and monitored constantly to children who, while they still had serious medical issues, were considerably more independent and well-behaved. Am I saying I was the only reason for that? Of course not, after all, my kids were getting more treatment than just me, but I think it is telling that one child's father and doctor both found time to visit me personally to thank me for the help.

I'm not saying that this is some kind of cure for the behavior or autism, but the attitude of "oh there's nothing you can do about it" is largely myth. And a harmful myth at that, as it discourages people from helping.

Curran basically said what I was going to say. Autism is one of those afflictions that greatly depends on the care and learning given. Not that there aren't still hardships or it's a cure all but how it's treated is huge with autism.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Oh that's right, I forgot, only people in wheelchairs or with obvious deformities are really disabled, the rest are "disabled" as Polonius put it.

Plenty of people try to fake phsycial disabilities, and plenty of people have invisible but legitimate disabilities. Its often hard to tell without a pretty thorough review of the medical record...

As for the system being "abused", lets see some proof. Not anecdotal nonsense about how that one time, at band camp, you saw a person that could walk normally and didn't have a massive public breakdown within the ten seconds they were within your line of sight skip a queue; evidence. You know what I'll bet? I'll bet that when you look at the statistics, you'll find exactly the same thing you find when you look at social security for the sick and disabled - fraud is a tiny fraction, often costing the system less than is lost through basic paperwork errors, and that the perception people have that the system is groaning under the unbearable weight of chancers, schemers, liars, and cheats all gaming it is a crock, based on the ignorance and biases of the perceiver.

Outright fraud is a pretty small percentage. exaggeration, overstatments, learned helplessness, and a desire for free money/services is a pretty big percentage.

I work in Disabillity Adjudication, so I spend hours with files of people, all of whom claim to be disabled. I make a decent living spending most of my time denying people that have some sort of impairment, but nothing that would preclude working.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
And eventually the Kids with Autism will have to understand that waits exist.

Sounds like you have limited experience with individuals with Autism, and certainly don't have any in your immediate family...

WRONG!!!!!
My nephew does, he has it. He hates waiting, but when we went to DL, he learned he had to. Are we going to start accomadating for people who ca tolerate waiting? Is there going to soon be a special checkout counter? Special Lane to Avoid traffic? Waiting is unavoidable, they will have to learn it is part of life. I find it funny people saying "I can only get on 4-5 rides a day" Um hello lady, its the same for normal people too.

Your glib comments show a shockng lack of understanding then.

I can only hope your nephew doesn't spend a lot of time with you.

And given your attitude, I'd imagine that's the case.

And that's the essential rub with reasonableness. An autistic kid may need multiple rides to avoid a melt down, but is that an accomodation, or special treatment? People are ok with a small inconvenience to allow a disabled person to enjoy a normal day. A large inconvenience is different.

 curran12 wrote:

I'm going to have to step in for a moment here, but your position on autism and autistic children is not as complete as you might think it is. In fact, to just say "there's no modifying the behavior" is wrong on a whole lot of levels. It is very much what you'd call an elastic condition, in that there is a great deal of variance even in an individual depending on the treatment and therapy they get. To cite my own experience, I worked with autistic children for about 5/6 years (back when I was in high school and college) in a pretty simple program of regular swimming lessons. Was I involved in the medical side of things? Certainly not, I was there as a swimming instructor and found myself as something of a coach to the kids (which eventually became me working directly one on one) that I taught.

The thing of it is that the attention I gave over that course of time, even though it was for an hour or two a week at most, did have an impact on the children I worked with. When I got to working one on one with them, you'd have children who did occasionally break down as you said for no real reason, but after a long stretch of this work, that behavior eventually left. I went from having kids who needed to be walked out the door and monitored constantly to children who, while they still had serious medical issues, were considerably more independent and well-behaved. Am I saying I was the only reason for that? Of course not, after all, my kids were getting more treatment than just me, but I think it is telling that one child's father and doctor both found time to visit me personally to thank me for the help.

I'm not saying that this is some kind of cure for the behavior or autism, but the attitude of "oh there's nothing you can do about it" is largely myth. And a harmful myth at that, as it discourages people from helping.

Well, sounds like you're much more of an expert than I am. The adult son of the owner of a company I used to work for was autistic, and that was really the only contact I've had with anyone who was autistic. I base most of my comments off of observations/what the owner had said to me about him.

 daedalus wrote:


Well, sounds like you're much more of an expert than I am. The adult son of the owner of a company I used to work for was autistic, and that was really the only contact I've had with anyone who was autistic. I base most of my comments off of observations/what the owner had said to me about him.

Not so much anymore, as I've been out of that group for more years than I care to say now.

But I can see how you come to that position. After all, if all you observe is one case, it is easy to determine that this is how it usually is. I understand that completely. The thing with autism is that it is one of those...hmm....trying to think of the best way to put it here...

It is a condition whose elastic nature means that there is a huge range of behaviors from it. Everything from just a little misbehavior to bona fide physical disabilities. And that in turn really makes handling and managing autism very difficult for any caregiver because it is not a clearly defined set of conditions. It's a very squirrely condition to pin down, as managing it is very much a whole lifestyle approach. Someone who is even seriously autistic can be treated to be quite capable, but it requires more than just a doctor. It requires 'therapy' at all times, and when I say therapy, I mean that there is no such thing as "good enough" for treating it. I hope that makes sense.

 curran12 wrote:

 daedalus wrote:


Well, sounds like you're much more of an expert than I am. The adult son of the owner of a company I used to work for was autistic, and that was really the only contact I've had with anyone who was autistic. I base most of my comments off of observations/what the owner had said to me about him.

Not so much anymore, as I've been out of that group for more years than I care to say now.

But I can see how you come to that position. After all, if all you observe is one case, it is easy to determine that this is how it usually is. I understand that completely. The thing with autism is that it is one of those...hmm....trying to think of the best way to put it here...

It is a condition whose elastic nature means that there is a huge range of behaviors from it. Everything from just a little misbehavior to bona fide physical disabilities. And that in turn really makes handling and managing autism very difficult for any caregiver because it is not a clearly defined set of conditions. It's a very squirrely condition to pin down, as managing it is very much a whole lifestyle approach. Someone who is even seriously autistic can be treated to be quite capable, but it requires more than just a doctor. It requires 'therapy' at all times, and when I say therapy, I mean that there is no such thing as "good enough" for treating it. I hope that makes sense.

Exactly!

I'll go a bit further and say that unless you have a child or sibling with Autism, or have a job where you work directly with Autistic individuals, it is hard to understand it sufficiently.

I can also say that the lack of understanding and empathy from many in this thread is a bit disturbing and depressing.

 Alpharius wrote:
I can also say that the lack of understanding and empathy from many in this thread is a bit disturbing and depressing.

That's fair, but this isn't a thread about how much Autism sucks. It's terrible, and the people that work with disabled people are doing a tough job, and deserve a cold beer on society. But that's another question. This thread is a question about reasonable accomodations, and fundamentally that involves drawing a line as a society where we say, "you just have to have this kind of functioning, even with some help, to participate."

If a child (or adult) cannot handle waits, even active waits, between rides, there's little that can reasonably be done to allow them to enjoy the park.

Even if the part could and chose to accomodate it, the question becomes one of other people plussing up their own limitaitons to enjoy it.

 Alpharius wrote:

I can also say that the lack of understanding and empathy from many in this thread is a bit disturbing and depressing.

I hope my comments were not included within this statement, but knowing my writing style and the internet, if they were, I want to apologize for unintentionally presenting that appearance.

 Hulksmash wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
And having watched people that are obviously healthy walk up and take a spot on a ride you've been waiting 1-2 hours for is something I'd say most park goers have experienced at one time or another. Which only lowers my sympathy for the people involved in this suit. The new system is fair. If you child isn't healthy enough be able to function under it at the new park then sorry, maybe it isn't the place for him/her.

This kind of crap annoys the stuffing out of me. How do you know someone is "obviously healthy"? Oh that's right, I forgot, only people in wheelchairs or with obvious deformities are really disabled, the rest are "disabled" as Polonius put it. And yeah, damnit, why can't these crips and nuttos just know their place and stay away from places where normal people go? I mean christ, these autistic types coming along to a theme park and expecting to be treated in a way that mildly inconveniences people so they can have an experience that would otherwise be denied to them, how bloody inconsiderate can you get!

As for the system being "abused", lets see some proof. Not anecdotal nonsense about how that one time, at band camp, you saw a person that could walk normally and didn't have a massive public breakdown within the ten seconds they were within your line of sight skip a queue; evidence. You know what I'll bet? I'll bet that when you look at the statistics, you'll find exactly the same thing you find when you look at social security for the sick and disabled - fraud is a tiny fraction, often costing the system less than is lost through basic paperwork errors, and that the perception people have that the system is groaning under the unbearable weight of chancers, schemers, liars, and cheats all gaming it is a crock, based on the ignorance and biases of the perceiver.

Unaccompanied minors is a start for an indication there isn't anything seriously wrong with them...Just saying before you get all high and mighty. Also, having spent a significant amount of time with high functioning disabled people it's not hard to spot the difference.

As for numbers do you think Disneyland (one of the most wired places on earth) didn't have those numbers before making the changes it did. It doesn't cost them anything to have people cutting. In fact, the change might cost them money at the expense of real fairness.

As someone who actually has a high-function ASD, and has spent significant time dealing with people using exactly the same arguments you use to justify treating me and those with far more serious versions of my condition that I volunteer with like crap, I'll be as "high and mighty" as I like.

You say "unaccompanied minors" - how old? How long were they visible to you? I've worked with kids as young as 12 who could appear to function completely normally to an observer until something triggered an episode, so how are you able to tell the difference between an "obviously healthy" child, and a child like the one I described with parents who are either A; trying strategies to help their child gain some level of self-reliance(like say, letting them walk past a queue and go on a ride while watching them from the back of the line in case they do trigger), or B; are just crappy parents that don't grasp their responsibilities(which isn't even remotely the kid's fault)? Are you a telepath? I have no doubt whatsoever that some people tried, some successfully, to take advantage of the previous system, but until I see actual statistical evidence I'll treat "well one time I saw..." or "one time my pal told me..." anecdotes with all the seriousness they deserve - none.

As for your Disney points;

A - Giving something away for free doesn't make it free. They were running a specific scheme for disabled kids, now those kids have to use the same "book&wait" service that was already available to everyone, just without paying cash for it - same scheme, same administration system, lower costs for Disney. When you're dealing with the sort of volume Disney do, even a small administrative tweak can save the company millions.

B - Do you think that the UK government didn't have "all the numbers" that told it their massive cuts to and reorganising of the social security system would lead to dramatically increased poverty and a staggering increase in suicides among the sick & disabled before they started? Of course they did, just as Disney doubtless have all the figures at their disposal. In both cases(and before anyone starts, they are equivalent only in the arguments people are using to support their actions and the targets of those actions, I am not equating the UK government's wholesale assault on this country's vulnerable with Disney being less considerate of disabled kids in a themepark on an ethical level), they will have examined the numbers, and the attitudes among the public, and decided that they stand to make a net financial gain from their new policy, and that the public's blinkered, bigoted, ignorant views about the disabled, those with mental disorders in particular, would protect them from electoral backlash/make it likely they would get a jury pool likely to take their side in any court challenge.

 daedalus wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
-snip-

You don't see the possibility of having people perpetually occupying seats without rotating out for a while being potentially damaging to the flow of already overbooked rides? I'm all for treating people as fairly as possible, but that includes the hundreds of people in line that now have even moreso increased wait periods.

Consider: Kid is autistic, will probably ride that things for hours if allowed. I'm about to pull numbers out of a hat. Bear with me. Suppose each ride is five minutes, and allows for 10 people to ride at a time. I don't know if those are realistic times, or realistic ride capacities. I don't do these kinds of places. Numbers aside, kid (and mom (and dad?)) ride the ride every possible instance for a lengthy period of time. There's a person who is 100th in line to ride. He would have been on in 50 minutes. Not great, but you expect these things, right? With the mom, dad, and kid, and assuming that there's only the mom and kid doing this on the ride, it now takes him 21 minutes extra to actually get to the ride. If you cut it down to just the mom and kid, it's about 12 and a half extra minutes. I'm not sure the number of people you have that would do this at disneyland (it's enough that they needed to change the policy, apparently), but if you had one of these situations on every ride, suddenly you have a 20-40% increase in wait times across the board, which means that your entertainment value for your tickets reduced by a very not mild amount of inconvenience.

Course, if you want to give up your spot...

"Possibility", "probably", "pull numbers out of a hat", "suppose", "I don't know if these are realistic"...

So what you're saying is, if you invent out of thin air a completely baseless hypothetical scenario which you admit may bear no relation to the facts whatsoever, you can justify modifying my argument to replace "mild inconvenience" with "modest but irritating inconvenience"?

 daedalus wrote:
Sounds like your nephew is pretty high functioning, actually. From what understand, a lot of autistic children completely fall apart for, like, no apparent reason. There's not really any sort of discipline or attempt at modifying behavior that can be done to make much of a difference.

If that were true, then there should be no expectation that people accommodate them. This is about reasonable allowances, after all, which should preclude expecting businesses to predict - let alone cater to - demands that are by definition unreasonable.

 Yodhrin wrote:

"Possibility", "probably", "pull numbers out of a hat", "suppose", "I don't know if these are realistic"...

So what you're saying is, if you invent out of thin air a completely baseless hypothetical scenario which you admit may bear no relation to the facts whatsoever, you can justify modifying my argument to replace "mild inconvenience" with "modest but irritating inconvenience"?

Sigh, actually, I was trying to use something called math to show how even a seemingly tiny inconvenience applied in a continuous manner can actually turn into a much bigger problem than people accept when they just look at face value. I spend a lot of time working on queuing issues, so this is a situation that is very interesting to me, personally. You should see me in traffic jams. Apparently it's very interesting to you too, because you appear to have some massive chip on your shoulder.

No, I don't have 100% accurate numbers because they don't appear to exist, and when I'm actually putting effort into something, I like to slap caveats on there where appropriate. The beauty of building a model for something like this is so that when presented with the real numbers, you can just slap them in place and see for yourself if its a problem or not. I'm guessing you haven't done that though. I'm guessing Disney has. They seem like the kind of people who would have a vested interest in doing so. I doubt they just rolled a die and "4 plused" it. I bet their model showed that it turned out to be a problem, hence the changes.

If you have facts, I invite you to present them. I'd be happy to model them in some way that would present a more clear and concise picture of whether there is a problem.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlexHolker wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
Sounds like your nephew is pretty high functioning, actually. From what understand, a lot of autistic children completely fall apart for, like, no apparent reason. There's not really any sort of discipline or attempt at modifying behavior that can be done to make much of a difference.

If that were true, then there should be no expectation that people accommodate them. This is about reasonable allowances, after all, which should preclude expecting businesses to predict - let alone cater to - demands that are by definition unreasonable.

Sure, but what is reasonable is both completely unique and unquestionably perfect thinking to every single person who walks through the door. Kinda like common sense.

I'm going to show my lack of knowledge on the ADHD and other similar disabilities.

I can see a kid with a touch of it and can be easily manage going to a park

I cannot see one who highly..lack of words go "skitzo" on a constant basis Almost, to me, like a mental torture

 Alpharius wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
And eventually the Kids with Autism will have to understand that waits exist.

Sounds like you have limited experience with individuals with Autism, and certainly don't have any in your immediate family...

WRONG!!!!!
My nephew does, he has it. He hates waiting, but when we went to DL, he learned he had to. Are we going to start accomadating for people who ca tolerate waiting? Is there going to soon be a special checkout counter? Special Lane to Avoid traffic? Waiting is unavoidable, they will have to learn it is part of life. I find it funny people saying "I can only get on 4-5 rides a day" Um hello lady, its the same for normal people too.

Your glib comments show a shockng lack of understanding then.

I can only hope your nephew doesn't spend a lot of time with you.

And given your attitude, I'd imagine that's the case.

Nope, I spend ALOT of time with him sense his father left, and I regularly watch over him at Disneyland. His mother agrees, the world isnt going to cater to him, he has to learn.

 Jihadin wrote:
I'm going to show my lack of knowledge on the ADHD and other similar disabilities.

I can see a kid with a touch of it and can be easily manage going to a park

I cannot see one who highly..lack of words go "skitzo" on a constant basis Almost, to me, like a mental torture

Well, almost nobody has episodes on a constant basis, of any disorder.

There are myriad impairments, all with their own spectums of intensity. Broadly speaking, you're looking mostly at developmental disorders when you talk about children with mental health issues. This is Intellectual Disability (formerly mental retardation), Borderline Intellectual Functioning (IQs in the 70s), and Autism. You also have ADHD, which is generally behavioral in nature. There's oppositional defiant disorder, which closely matches wtih antisocial personality disorder in adults. Some children have mood or anxiety disorders, but they are quite rare.

The question is usually, when looking at functioning in children, to isolate what stimuli cause them to derail. So, for a theme park, being close in with a crowd may trigger an episode.

Keep in mind, the goal with most current treatment is to mainstream children as much as possible.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
And eventually the Kids with Autism will have to understand that waits exist.

Sounds like you have limited experience with individuals with Autism, and certainly don't have any in your immediate family...

WRONG!!!!!
My nephew does, he has it. He hates waiting, but when we went to DL, he learned he had to. Are we going to start accomadating for people who ca tolerate waiting? Is there going to soon be a special checkout counter? Special Lane to Avoid traffic? Waiting is unavoidable, they will have to learn it is part of life. I find it funny people saying "I can only get on 4-5 rides a day" Um hello lady, its the same for normal people too.

Your glib comments show a shockng lack of understanding then.

I can only hope your nephew doesn't spend a lot of time with you.

And given your attitude, I'd imagine that's the case.

Nope, I spend ALOT of time with him sense his father left, and I regularly watch over him at Disneyland. His mother agrees, the world isnt going to cater to him, he has to learn.

I give up - you win!

Which, of course, means someone is losing there, but oh well.

YAY, I WIN
But my Nephew somehow looses because he is being taught the world will not cater to him.
I seriously ask you this, what should we do for people who cant tolerate waiting? Let them cut infront of us? give them special treatment

 Alpharius wrote:



I give up - you win!

Which, of course, means someone is losing there, but oh well.

To be fair Alph, you aren't really making any sort of point in your posts. You're simply accusing a poster of having a lack of experience, and not even articulating what aspect of his view you find problematic.

You're being confrontational in a way that's easily rebutted, while not actually advocating for anything meaningful.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
YAY, I WIN
But my Nephew somehow looses because he is being taught the world will not cater to him.
I seriously ask you this, what should we do for people who cant tolerate waiting? Let them cut infront of us? give them special treatment

I think the Disney solution of time tickets makes sense. They don't have to wait in one place, they can come and go as they please.

An individual that cannot handle any minor interruption of schedule is probably not going to be able to handle a theme park, I'm afraid.

Weren't you the same person who was in favor of 'special snowflake' treatment in schools, hotsauce? But now you are not in favor of any kind of special treatment?

Waffles are tasty.

Seriously?!?

"LEARN TO WAIT" isn't really going to work for a LOT of people who have Autism.

It just isn't.

And it is a rather ignorant viewpoint to take.

But, you're right - this thread is more about Disney and their policy, and while it does tie in, I can't really see the point of discussing it in here anymore.

Why I even bother with the OT Forum anymore is beyond me, but this thread is a fantastic reminder to...not bother.

 curran12 wrote:
Weren't you the same person who was in favor of 'special snowflake' treatment in schools, hotsauce? But now you are not in favor of any kind of special treatment?

Waffles are tasty.

As we all both suffer for it, and likely made him this way, I choose to blame the obvious victim here: Dakka.

I think we really need to reel the scale of this issue back in.

Relating this back to a theme park.

I've changed my mind from my original stance, I think Yodhrin has the way of it. While I don't think Disney should be getting sued, they should implement their old policy.

Going beyond the realms of Autism; For all the people that abuse the system your making a disabled Child's experience of Disneyland better and while "regular" people may need to queue slightly longer, you still get to "enjoy" your experience and then leave. These disabilities will effect these kids for life, so perhaps cut them some slack.