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2014/04/21 19:38:47
Subject: Disney sued for failing to accomadate children w/ mental disabilities
I think Disney's stance is more than reasonable. Allowing whole sale line cutting encourages abuse. They can't force people to bring medical files to review without major lawsuit implications. The current system is a balance for both patrons of their park.
If the child can't handle that system then perhaps an amusement park isn't a place they should go.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/21 19:39:03
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2014/04/21 19:41:01
Subject: Re:Disney sued for failing to accomadate children w/ mental disabilities
If we, as people of sound body and mind, can't find it in ourselves to give a tiny bit of our time, even indirectly, to a disabled person then I don't know what to say.
I am with Medium. The argument of "people might abuse it" does not carry much water for me, because that just puts stress and pain on those who do NOT abuse it. I think the policy could be re-done to allow for more analysis and examination, but removing it entirely is not a positive step.
"LEARN TO WAIT" isn't really going to work for a LOT of people who have Autism.
It just isn't.
And it is a rather ignorant viewpoint to take.
But, you're right - this thread is more about Disney and their policy, and while it does tie in, I can't really see the point of discussing it in here anymore.
Why I even bother with the OT Forum anymore is beyond me, but this thread is a fantastic reminder to...not bother.
I think if you'd share more of your experiences, and provide some context for why you're upset, we could talk about it. To a bystander, you just seem really aggravated that people have different views of autism then you.
As for autistic children not learning to wait: That might be true. But it might be appropriate for some people. The whole goal of most Autism therapy, especially for mildler versions or those that are higher functioning, is to try to integrate them as much as possible.
Take a deep breath, and read what you wrote. Hotsauce wasn't making a generalization, he was taking about his experience. Maybe his family is going a terrible job of raising an autistic child, but that's not a suggestion I feel comfortable diagnosing casually.
If a child with disabilities can (or should) learn to wait, Disney is a good place to try that. If they cannot, meaning they cannot handle any delays or other disruptions, then you have to wonder if a theme part is a great place for them.
2014/04/21 19:44:49
Subject: Re:Disney sued for failing to accomadate children w/ mental disabilities
Still. I am interested in how much this tiny amount of time must be. I mean, surely Disney put some thought behind this, before just issuing new policy.
Medium of Death wrote: If we, as people of sound body and mind, can't find it in ourselves to give a tiny bit of our time, even indirectly, to a disabled person then I don't know what to say.
As far as I understand the issue, the problem is people of sound body and mind being asked to give a chunk of their time to other people of sound mind and body who have taken unfair advantage of the facility offered to genuinely disabled visitors.
"LEARN TO WAIT" isn't really going to work for a LOT of people who have Autism.
It just isn't.
And it is a rather ignorant viewpoint to take.
But, you're right - this thread is more about Disney and their policy, and while it does tie in, I can't really see the point of discussing it in here anymore.
Why I even bother with the OT Forum anymore is beyond me, but this thread is a fantastic reminder to...not bother.
I think if you'd share more of your experiences, and provide some context for why you're upset, we could talk about it. To a bystander, you just seem really aggravated that people have different views of autism then you.
As for autistic children not learning to wait: That might be true. But it might be appropriate for some people. The whole goal of most Autism therapy, especially for mildler versions or those that are higher functioning, is to try to integrate them as much as possible.
Take a deep breath, and read what you wrote. Hotsauce wasn't making a generalization, he was taking about his experience. Maybe his family is going a terrible job of raising an autistic child, but that's not a suggestion I feel comfortable diagnosing casually.
If a child with disabilities can (or should) learn to wait, Disney is a good place to try that. If they cannot, meaning they cannot handle any delays or other disruptions, then you have to wonder if a theme part is a great place for them.
Take a breath?
Is that a something you'd normally say to help diffuse a situation?
And if I sound aggravated here is...because I am.
There's a lot of things being said about autism here that aren't doing many a lot of favors in here.
My youngest daughter (8 years old) is non-verbal autistic.
And she's probably 'mid-spectrum' in terms of where she might fit on some scale that doesn't really exist.
She enjoyed her time at Disney, back when the pass existed that allowed her to go to the front of the line without much waiting - there was still some though!
So, saying that it "isn't the place for her", or "Learn to Wait" - that sounds really ignorant.
Like, still in high school and haven't really experienced much in the world yet level of ignorant.
Then when we start to hear stuff like "Well, maybe it isn't the place for them", where getting close to "Just stay at home"...
2014/04/21 19:49:07
Subject: Re:Disney sued for failing to accomadate children w/ mental disabilities
Medium of Death wrote: If we, as people of sound body and mind, can't find it in ourselves to give a tiny bit of our time, even indirectly, to a disabled person then I don't know what to say.
We'll probably never know how prevelant abuse of the system was. I'd guess the number is higher than many people expect.
Disabled people aren't any more or less moral than anybody else. And disabilities ride a spectrum. The one thing they have in common is that all disabilities limit a person in some way.
So they start getting support, which for a lot of people is necessary, but for some just makes their life easier. Couple this with disabled people generally having less money due to medical bills and fewer career choices, and you have a class of people that, well... knows how to get what they can.
2014/04/21 19:50:00
Subject: Disney sued for failing to accomadate children w/ mental disabilities
curran12 wrote: I am with Medium. The argument of "people might abuse it" does not carry much water for me, because that just puts stress and pain on those who do NOT abuse it. I think the policy could be re-done to allow for more analysis and examination, but removing it entirely is not a positive step.
It hasn't been removed. It's been revamped. Special needs people can schedule the time for them to ride. Meaning they don't have to wait in the longer lines. They schedule a ride, come back after riding rides that don't require long waits, and enjoy their ride without the 2-3 hour wait. I'm not seeing what the issue is here or why they should be allowed to walk to the front without any consideration for others.
Basically Disney is making it a little bit harder to walk on to discourage people abusing the system while still leaving the ability for those with special needs to avoid the major issues. I'm not sure why this being in place is other people not giving special needs people a little consideration. They are still being treated more favorably than your standard Disney land attendee.
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2014/04/21 19:52:20
Subject: Re:Disney sued for failing to accomadate children w/ mental disabilities
Medium of Death wrote: If we, as people of sound body and mind, can't find it in ourselves to give a tiny bit of our time, even indirectly, to a disabled person then I don't know what to say.
As far as I understand the issue, the problem is people of sound body and mind being asked to give a chunk of their time to other people of sound mind and body who have taken unfair advantage of the facility offered to genuinely disabled visitors.
As Yodhrin pointed out; Frequently with these issues the abuses are overstated. Are there really queues full of healthy people feigning disability? Perhaps that Theme Parks are anomalies in this regard.
Probably there aren't that many people cheating, but the public perception could be there is enough of a problem to put people off going to Disneyland.
I have no idea what the situation is, however obviously Disney are concerned or they would not have felt the need to change the system.
Medium of Death wrote: If we, as people of sound body and mind, can't find it in ourselves to give a tiny bit of our time, even indirectly, to a disabled person then I don't know what to say.
As far as I understand the issue, the problem is people of sound body and mind being asked to give a chunk of their time to other people of sound mind and body who have taken unfair advantage of the facility offered to genuinely disabled visitors.
As Yodhrin pointed out; Frequently with these issues the abuses are overstated. Are there really queues full of healthy people feigning disability? Perhaps that Theme Parks are anomalies in this regard.
It isn't either fully disabled people who need special treatment or completely healthy people pretending. It's probably a lot more people with slight disabilities that really don't need the special treatment and are taking advantage of the fact that in this day and age they can be considered disabled.
2014/04/21 20:00:42
Subject: Re:Disney sued for failing to accomadate children w/ mental disabilities
Medium of Death wrote: If we, as people of sound body and mind, can't find it in ourselves to give a tiny bit of our time, even indirectly, to a disabled person then I don't know what to say.
We'll probably never know how prevelant abuse of the system was. I'd guess the number is higher than many people expect.
Disabled people aren't any more or less moral than anybody else. And disabilities ride a spectrum. The one thing they have in common is that all disabilities limit a person in some way.
So they start getting support, which for a lot of people is necessary, but for some just makes their life easier. Couple this with disabled people generally having less money due to medical bills and fewer career choices, and you have a class of people that, well... knows how to get what they can.
I guess it's just down to defining or assessing the limitation. Which would put Disney on a slippery slope, that's why I think that in this instance that they should implement the old policy. We aren't talking about social welfare, we're talking about giving kids a great experience regardless of their abilities at a theme park. Now, arseholes ruin everything, but this is an area where I think people can be allowed to abuse the system as the benefits outweigh the disadvantages in my mind at least.
"LEARN TO WAIT" isn't really going to work for a LOT of people who have Autism.
It just isn't.
And it is a rather ignorant viewpoint to take.
But, you're right - this thread is more about Disney and their policy, and while it does tie in, I can't really see the point of discussing it in here anymore.
Why I even bother with the OT Forum anymore is beyond me, but this thread is a fantastic reminder to...not bother.
I think if you'd share more of your experiences, and provide some context for why you're upset, we could talk about it. To a bystander, you just seem really aggravated that people have different views of autism then you.
As for autistic children not learning to wait: That might be true. But it might be appropriate for some people. The whole goal of most Autism therapy, especially for mildler versions or those that are higher functioning, is to try to integrate them as much as possible.
Take a deep breath, and read what you wrote. Hotsauce wasn't making a generalization, he was taking about his experience. Maybe his family is going a terrible job of raising an autistic child, but that's not a suggestion I feel comfortable diagnosing casually.
If a child with disabilities can (or should) learn to wait, Disney is a good place to try that. If they cannot, meaning they cannot handle any delays or other disruptions, then you have to wonder if a theme part is a great place for them.
Take a breath?
Is that a something you'd normally say to help diffuse a situation?
And if I sound aggravated here is...because I am.
There's a lot of things being said about autism here that aren't doing many a lot of favors in here.
My youngest daughter (8 years old) is non-verbal autistic.
And she's probably 'mid-spectrum' in terms of where she might fit on some scale that doesn't really exist.
She enjoyed her time at Disney, back when the pass existed that allowed her to go to the front of the line without much waiting - there was still some though!
So, saying that it "isn't the place for her", or "Learn to Wait" - that sounds really ignorant.
Like, still in high school and haven't really experienced much in the world yet level of ignorant.
Then when we start to hear stuff like "Well, maybe it isn't the place for them", where getting close to "Just stay at home"...
I don't know, I think it's equally ignorant to expect the world to adjust just for a sub-group of people. I've lived in 3 countries and the US seems to be the only place that treats those afflicted with mild forms of disability as more deserving than those who pay for their services. If by action or omission of action I allow my actions or those under my supervision to greatly inconvenience those around me, I am creating a dissonance in the public harmony. There are times and places for all things and if a person is so afflicted that they impinge upon the ability of the greater whole's ability to access or enjoy services that they pay for then such locations may not be the best place for these individuals. Just like I would not take a screaming baby into a movie theater.
I think that US society has a whole does a great deal to ensure that individuals with disabilities are able to enjoy a fairly high level of lifestyle but to say it is someone's right to inconvenience me is then taking it too far. Sure, I don't mind waiting a couple of minutes to accommodate anyone (disability or not) but when you're creating an environment of privilege for such people, that's where I draw the line. I'm deaf in my left ear and have degenerative disc disease to the point that I cant stand or sit for extended periods of time without intense discomfort but I don't go around screaming to the heavens that I need special accommodations and everyone needs to put seats in the lines for me to sit on while I wait. I could probably avail myself of the provided wheelchairs but would choose instead not to visit places where I would need accommodation because I feel that my honest social responsibility is not to make a bother of myself.
Travel to Disney with a child with autism can be difficult. One of the most challenging feats is due to the fact that autism varies so much from child to child and the types of autism vary so what is good for one child is not helpful for another. Traveling with an autistic child requires a creative and calm parent. We are here to help, especially if you have never traveled to a Disney park before. First ignore criticism from others, every family is different and requires their own special needs. Trying to make something work because someone else has with their autistic child or friend's child could lead to disastrous results.
Below are tips for parents on how to successfully manage their child's behavior:
1 - Understand -- Before you head out on vacation take an inventory of your child’s special needs. Learning to manage your child is knowing them because your child is unique. Know your child’s sensitivities. Is it light, sound or crowds? Does your child crave sensory input? The more you identify helps with planning with times of visit and types of attractions.
2 - Adjust -- Many children with autism struggle to cope with heavy crowds and stimulation. Start small and plan to increase it over time. Disney offers such a wide variety of activities that many families take years to discover it all. A great benefit is that your family can return year after year and your child can gradually learn to expand their world in an entertaining, safe and structured environment. Even down time activities like meal time are so flexible at the Disney Parks. While many autistic children struggle with a table service restaurant meals at the parks and resorts can be modified to fit your needs with quick service meals and eating on a park bench or poolside. Start small and work up to the more structured activities.
4 – Environmental--. Safety is important. While Disney strives to create a safe environment for all, even the safest can pose a challenge for the autistic child. Be prepared. Autistic children can often wonder quietly so stay vigilant. Secure medications or potential hazards out of reach in a locked suitcase or in the room safe. Bring a travel alarm to alert you if the door is opened. Request a room away from potential hazards, especially if your child is attracted to pools or cars. Bring several familiar items from home to make the room more comfortable including favorite toys or pillows.
3 – Identify---List the possible sources of your child's behavior. Most children with autism deal with sensory input differently. Does your child over-respond or crave sensory stimulation? Most often meltdowns are a reaction to sensory overload or sensory deprivation. Know when to expect them as well, not only your child but the entire family can handle stress when not fatigued so aim to do the more challenging activities earlier in the day. Have a backup plan for meltdowns. This can be a challenge when you have other children who want to remain in the park. Prepare by learning about the parks, crowds, potential types of stimulation and it helps to have a partner incase you need to divide the party and bring in order to bring your child to a quieter location.
5 – Decrease sensory input. The Disney parks are filled with excessive stimulation, from crowds, bright lights to loud noises. Know your child and whether it’s vibrations that frighten them or loud booms then plan accordingly. Ear plugs work well with loud noises, avoid parades or watch from a distance. Fireworks can be viewed from a remote location like a hotel room or balcony or beach. Explore the potential attractions for excessive stimulation and plan accordingly, at Mouse-aid, we are here to help with questions and alternatives.
6 – Increase sensory input. A child craving sensory input will be found spinning and climbing. If you find yourself in a situation where you need him or her to calm down then try a huge bear hug or group hug. If you are in a room or in cooler weather if your child is in a stroller or wheelchair then try wrapping them in a blanket to give that sensation of touch and security. Traveling with a familiar item helps too and there are always play areas to let them run around safely for a while such as Pooh’s Thoughtful spot or Tom Sawyer’s Island.
7 - Celebrate success—A Disney vacation is challenging for your child and family. Plan to make special activities, even things like getting popcorn or a Mickey bar a celebration. Plan activities that your child loves for break time even if that is a quiet time in the room. Acknowledge and celebrate activities like making it through a short line or using a fork at dinner.
8 – Have fun---Make sure to find ways to have fun together. Some children with autism struggle to enter our world; but, Disney is filled with opportunities to help the family have fun together. Here the types of autism has an impact on how the family can have fun together and will vary from family to family. Activities can include exploring in Animal Kingdom for Dino bones or walking on the beaches at a resort, playing in one of the many activity areas or just cuddling and watching a parade from a distance. It can be hard to relate fun with autism but a vacation is your family time for the entire family.
Remember that every family is different so each family needs to design a plan around your specific needs and budget. We are here to help. Don’t forget the Guest Assistance Card (GAC) for the more difficult times and crowds. It does help to keep your activities as conventional as possible. Many children do not like to be treated different than others so keep this in mind and use the pass for longer lines. Do take advantage of smaller lines and fast pass to help normalize the family experience.
The opinions and resources provided on Mouse-aid Web site are intended for informational purposes only and are not intended to take the place of medical or legal advice, or of other appropriate services. We encourage you to seek direct local assistance from a qualified professional if necessary before taking action.
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2014/04/21 21:44:09
Subject: Re:Disney sued for failing to accomadate children w/ mental disabilities
Disney at the point of Damn if you do and Damn if you don't.
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2014/04/21 22:21:51
Subject: Disney sued for failing to accomadate children w/ mental disabilities
No I got your point, but you were using ridiculous examples. Obviously there comes a point where it isn't feasible to include all people in these massive systems, but the examples you give aren't really relevant, appropriate or covered by legislation.
The examples, especially regarding to fighter jets were intentionally ridiculous. Because as a philosophical point you have to establish logical boundaries, which is easier done with simple obvious clear examples. Too many people ignore logical boundaries on a point of dogma, so by presenting inevitable boundaries you establish that boundaries exist and thus can make point that the moral ideal and the moral reality are separated.
A reason why this is relevant. A council in Scotland (wont mention which one) is lumped with a £250,000 annual ill for the education of a single severely disabled child who cannot hope to have an independent life or pursue a career.
The fact that this person can never work is well established, but because local council workers decided he had a 'right' to a full education anyway special tuition was required, even though the pupil was too severely disabled but be properly unaware he/she was even being educated. £250,000 is enough to run a whole school, and many non disabled kids in the borough receive a sub-standard education due to cost cutting. However where a logical approach to disability has not been established, a realistic policy for disability inclusion and ethical division of resources can go out of the window.
There is need for a firm philosophy in place, starting with the obvious, you may say disingenuous, point that some extreme of inclusion are clearly non workable or ridiculous in concept or cost. Thus establishing the firm principle that you cannot legislate away disability, nor can you wish it away with unlimited public spending. This can be put in practice when it comes to difficult cases when it's futile trying to provide practical help, decision makers are thus empowered to make a prudent realistic decision, rather than be morally railroaded into a dogmatic approach to proceed with the 'right thing' regardless-of-cost or waste of purpose.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/04/21 22:34:07
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2014/04/21 22:30:46
Subject: Disney sued for failing to accomadate children w/ mental disabilities
I don't know, I think it's equally ignorant to expect the world to adjust just for a sub-group of people. I've lived in 3 countries and the US seems to be the only place that treats those afflicted with mild forms of disability as more deserving than those who pay for their services. If by action or omission of action I allow my actions or those under my supervision to greatly inconvenience those around me, I am creating a dissonance in the public harmony. There are times and places for all things and if a person is so afflicted that they impinge upon the ability of the greater whole's ability to access or enjoy services that they pay for then such locations may not be the best place for these individuals. Just like I would not take a screaming baby into a movie theater.
I think that US society has a whole does a great deal to ensure that individuals with disabilities are able to enjoy a fairly high level of lifestyle but to say it is someone's right to inconvenience me is then taking it too far. Sure, I don't mind waiting a couple of minutes to accommodate anyone (disability or not) but when you're creating an environment of privilege for such people, that's where I draw the line. I'm deaf in my left ear and have degenerative disc disease to the point that I cant stand or sit for extended periods of time without intense discomfort but I don't go around screaming to the heavens that I need special accommodations and everyone needs to put seats in the lines for me to sit on while I wait. I could probably avail myself of the provided wheelchairs but would choose instead not to visit places where I would need accommodation because I feel that my honest social responsibility is not to make a bother of myself.
I think your pretty bang out of order to respond to Alph in such a fashion.
Realistically, how does a disabled child at a theme park for children impede your enjoyment? Honestly answer me that.
This one is the best.
agnosto wrote: when you're creating an environment of privilege for such people
creating an environment of privilege for such people
environment of privilege
such people
We are talking about kids at a fething theme park.
You do realise that these kids leave the theme park with these issues and have to interact with a world that, which is clearly evidenced in this thread, is unsympathetic and borderline abusive?
Is it not unreasonable that children with disabilities and their parents be able to have a nice time at Disneyland? If you'd prefer to upset disabled people by putting them a line "like everybody else", which would not only ruin their experience and their parents experience but the experiences of the patrons around them. If you can't handle a few kids skipping the line because they are disabled, maybe you should stay at home? You complain about disabled people or their parents acting self entitled while being massively self entitled yourself.
I hope you stick to your personal code if somebody offers you a seat when your knees are acting up, or refuse to have somebody repeat a question because they spoke into your deaf ear.
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The BLM\Bundy thread has taught me to try and be more selective about the threads I participate in going forward. I do believe that there is a useful and meaningful exchange of ideas in here now and then but you need to really pick and choose your threads.
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2014/04/21 22:41:54
Subject: Disney sued for failing to accomadate children w/ mental disabilities
No I got your point, but you were using ridiculous examples. Obviously there comes a point where it isn't feasible to include all people in these massive systems, but the examples you give aren't really relevant, appropriate or covered by legislation.
The examples, especially regarding to fighter jets were intentionally ridiculous. Because as a philosophical point you have to establish logical boundaries. Too many people ignore those boundaries on a point of dogma, so by presenting inevitable boundaries you establish that boundaries exist.
A reason why this is relevant. A council in Scotland (wont mention which one) is lumped with a £250,000 annual ill for the education of a single severely disabled child who cannot hope to have an independent life or pursue a career.
The fact that this person can never work is well established, but because local council workers decided he had a 'right' to a full education anyway special tuition was required, even though the pupil was too severely disabled but be properly unaware he/she was even being educated. £250,000 is enough to run a whole school, and many non disabled kids in the borough receive a sub-standard education due to cost cutting. However where a logical approach to disability has not been established, a realistic policy for disability inclusion and ethical division of resources can go out of the window.
There is need for a firm philosophy in place, starting with the obvious, you may say disingenuous, point that some extreme of inclusion are clearly non workable or ridiculous in concept or cost. Thus establishing the firm principle that you cannot legislate away disability, nor can you wish it away with unlimited public spending. Put in practice when it comes to the cases when it's futile trying to people are empowered to make a prudent realistic decision, rather than be morally railroaded into a dogmatic approach to proceed with the 'right thing' regardless-of-cost or purpose.
Cutting down on tax avoidance and making our wealthiest pay their way could help with that funding. I agree that sending the child to a mainstream school is ridiculous, but it is hardly the fault of one disabled child that the local schools are underfunded, regardless of what the Daily Mail might say.
That money could be used on getting the child to a more specialist environment. It is important to send children with disabilities to school, perhaps not mainstream like your example where it would incur excessive cost, but there are specialist schools. It offers respite to the parents as well.
I don't think that this is costing Disney money though. I'd wager it's coming from a few vocal voices and perhaps staff. Somebody said it might put future visitors off but I'd say that'd be a fairly weird point of consideration if you were heading to Disneyland.
"Hey kids we aren't going to Disneyland because I heard some disabled kids get to skip queues and some scumbags take advantage of that system. No fun for all!"
Cutting down on tax avoidance and making our wealthiest pay their way could help with that funding. I agree that sending the child to a mainstream school is ridiculous, but it is hardly the fault of one disabled child that the local schools are underfunded, regardless of what the Daily Mail might say.
This story was not from the Daily Mail, I know one of the councilors who voted when the council decided to spend the money. I disagree of course, but it Scottish local taxation so, up to them...
That money could be used on getting the child to a more specialist environment. It is important to send children with disabilities to school, perhaps not mainstream like your example where it would incur excessive cost, but there are specialist schools. It offers respite to the parents as well.
Never stated or implied my example was in mainstream education. The child requires a specialist solo environment for the education, hence the £250,000 costs.
Bit of respite for the parents, at a cost of a quarter of a million, sorry no. Other parents of disabled kids have to settle for less.
It unfortunate that severely disability is part of this world, and that the parents and child have to suffer this burden. But you can't throw mega-money at everything.
I don't think that this is costing Disney money though. I'd wager it's coming from a few vocal voices and perhaps staff. Somebody said it might put future visitors off but I'd say that'd be a fairly weird point of consideration if you were heading to Disneyland.
"Hey kids we aren't going to Disneyland because I heard some disabled kids get to skip queues and some scumbags take advantage of that system. No fun for all!"
These are separate arguments, but establishing a sound philosophical foundation holds true for the OP also, hence why I brought up the topic.
Once one has established that you cannot legislate away disability, then its easy to come to an understanding that companies shouldn't have to jump though excessive numbers of hoops to cater for more serious or difficult disability cases, then a sensible approach to inclusion can be effected, and frivolous lawsuits safely disposed of.
Disney have a responsibility to do what is practical to accommodate disabled visitors under the aegis of equality, but Disney must also be legally protected when some disabled persons are too hard to accommodate, or if accommodating them unfairly disadvantages other visitors, and thus sacrificing the equality inclusion is attempted to provide.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/21 23:07:21
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2014/04/21 23:16:05
Subject: Disney sued for failing to accomadate children w/ mental disabilities
Anyway, as we don't seem to have one, here's a link to a discussion from when this policy was put in place (last September), and a recap as to WHY it was put in place (from last May).
Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes?
2014/04/21 23:25:09
Subject: Re:Disney sued for failing to accomadate children w/ mental disabilities
I was speaking more generally about the respite offered by specialist schools. I find it hard to believe the care costs would have been the same for the child to go into any form of education. My point about the "Daily Mail" ideology is that it places the blame with those at the bottom of the scale, rather than the top where decisions are made.
Nobody is arguing for any excessive cost to be placed on Disney and I doubt the queue skip one was incurring one.
The scheduling thing would perhaps work in practice if they allowed the parents to schedule multiple rides. Like ride x ride at x time, then another ride at y time and so on. It appears they can only schedule one ride and then wait. I would say that the scheduling idea does seem to be a lot harder to implement than their old method.
Perhaps Disneyland wasn't seeing an increase in abuse of the system but in disabled guests as they had created a fairly welcoming environment. Wealthy New Yorkers hiring disabled people aside.
I don't know, I think it's equally ignorant to expect the world to adjust just for a sub-group of people. I've lived in 3 countries and the US seems to be the only place that treats those afflicted with mild forms of disability as more deserving than those who pay for their services. If by action or omission of action I allow my actions or those under my supervision to greatly inconvenience those around me, I am creating a dissonance in the public harmony. There are times and places for all things and if a person is so afflicted that they impinge upon the ability of the greater whole's ability to access or enjoy services that they pay for then such locations may not be the best place for these individuals. Just like I would not take a screaming baby into a movie theater.
I think that US society has a whole does a great deal to ensure that individuals with disabilities are able to enjoy a fairly high level of lifestyle but to say it is someone's right to inconvenience me is then taking it too far. Sure, I don't mind waiting a couple of minutes to accommodate anyone (disability or not) but when you're creating an environment of privilege for such people, that's where I draw the line. I'm deaf in my left ear and have degenerative disc disease to the point that I cant stand or sit for extended periods of time without intense discomfort but I don't go around screaming to the heavens that I need special accommodations and everyone needs to put seats in the lines for me to sit on while I wait. I could probably avail myself of the provided wheelchairs but would choose instead not to visit places where I would need accommodation because I feel that my honest social responsibility is not to make a bother of myself.
I think your pretty bang out of order to respond to Alph in such a fashion.
I disagree, I think agnosto gave a well reasoned and fair response, rather devoid of knee-jerking emotion.
Medium of Death wrote: Realistically, how does a disabled child at a theme park for children impede your enjoyment? Honestly answer me that.
The issue isn't disabled children getting to go on rides, rather it is identifying a flawed system that privileges one group over another. A system which allows for extreme abuses of those perks by people who shouldn't be benefiting from those special privileges in the first place. Peoplehave shown their willingness to game the system, so the old policy didn't work. And if I take my family to Disneyland, shell out the $100+ per-ticket price, and we have to wait much longer for a ride than someone else's family because they are taking advantage of a policy that may not even really be intended for them, then yes, it is impeding my enjoyment of the park by denying me and mine the fun we also paid for. Remember, that is why Disney changed the policy. It wasn't to appease people who hate disabled children having fun (which some of the more emotional posters in this thread seem to be implying is the case), it was because the old policy was flawed.
2014/04/21 23:39:11
Subject: Disney sued for failing to accomadate children w/ mental disabilities
curran12 wrote: Weren't you the same person who was in favor of 'special snowflake' treatment in schools, hotsauce? But now you are not in favor of any kind of special treatment?
Waffles are tasty.
Education is a gateway to a world where they can function in society.
Let me lay down my fractured logic. I, and many of my peers, needed special education to understand the material. I needed two math classes instead of the normal 1. But it was clear I could understand with some help and go on myself. But a few doors down was the really special ED, those who could never have a normal life. They spent their day running a store for candy and soda the students could buy. Learning about how to make change and other things that are reasonable for them, they where not learning science or how to build something in WoodShop. Im talking about Reasonable accomadations.
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2014/04/21 23:42:41
Subject: Re:Disney sued for failing to accomadate children w/ mental disabilities
Medium of Death wrote: If we, as people of sound body and mind, can't find it in ourselves to give a tiny bit of our time, even indirectly, to a disabled person then I don't know what to say.
I think if it really was just a tiny bit of time tagged onto a minor inconvenience, people wouldn't have a problem with it.
How much time do you think the average Disneyland guest spends in line compared to spent doing everything else at the park? The truth is that Disney has been raising ticket prices because too many people have been visiting the park, to the point that they no longer have an off-season.
I haven't found Disneyland to be 'worth' their outrageous prices in years.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/21 23:47:44
A handful of New York rich families does not a crisis make. I still disagree that the response was well reasoned and fair considering the use of "sub-group" when referring to the disabled is in the first sentence and words like "public harmony". What does that even mean in this context? Quantify the harmony of a theme park full of excited children.
I severely doubt that waiting times at Disneyland were increased greatly because of this. Waiting times already seem ridiculous.
What I assume is that this threatened the Disney VIP pass system, which seems ridiculously expensive, which was probably aimed at the families using this kind of practice. Disney have eliminated the "competition" and secured the future ticket money for their VIP system.
Leave it to a massively wealthy corporation to turn their greed into a story of people turning against the most disadvantaged in society all over a theme park.
I agree the wait times were already ridiculous. However, any perceived increase to the ridiculous can cause real problems. I have two family memebers and a lot of friends who work/worked at Disneyland, and the amount of abuse they experience due to the lines and the sun turning normal people into donkey-caves is unbelievable. My cousin was assaulted (I suppose Battered, in the legal sense) for enforcing a height requirement. Hot sun, long lines, and perceived injustice make a potent mix and have definitely affected public perception of the park here in Orange County.
Ouze wrote: I have the utmost sympathy for the parents of children with autism, and I would normally say that, well, going above and beyond wouldn't really be an undue hardship on such a large company; to give the better experience. I've read quite a bit about the scamming that forced them to change it, so at this point I think, now that a proven and clear business reason exists, the previous system was no longer a reasonable accommodation, and that giving them a set return time, while a lessened experience than previously, is now the reasonable choice in view of the no-longer-feasible alternative options. It's not any accommodation, it's a reasonable one, and that can be a moving target when the situation changes.
"Now, however, visitors to Walt Disney World and Disneyland can obtain a Disability Access Service Card which allows them to schedule a return time for rides based on current wait times. The system prevents those with disabilities from having to wait in line, but only allows visitors to schedule one attraction at a time. "
Perfectly reasonable response.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/22 01:03:45
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2014/04/22 01:17:37
Subject: Disney sued for failing to accomadate children w/ mental disabilities
I think your pretty bang out of order to respond to Alph in such a fashion.
Realistically, how does a disabled child at a theme park for children impede your enjoyment? Honestly answer me that.
Meh. That's fine; I'm mature enough to not flip out when someone doesn't agree with me. At the end of the day, this is an internet forum where people exchange ideas. I respect your opinion even though we may disagree.
I disagree in that the issue here is not about "children" at a theme park for "children". The issue here is an expectation that has developed in society that has resulted in certain conditions being driven to the opposite end of the spectrum from whence they came. We went from a society where those with disabilities were shunned to on where such people enjoy almost a privileged status. I'll go into this in a little more detail later.
You do realise that these kids leave the theme park with these issues and have to interact with a world that, which is clearly evidenced in this thread, is unsympathetic and borderline abusive?
Is it not unreasonable that children with disabilities and their parents be able to have a nice time at Disneyland? If you'd prefer to upset disabled people by putting them a line "like everybody else", which would not only ruin their experience and their parents experience but the experiences of the patrons around them. If you can't handle a few kids skipping the line because they are disabled, maybe you should stay at home? You complain about disabled people or their parents acting self entitled while being massively self entitled yourself.
I hope you stick to your personal code if somebody offers you a seat when your knees are acting up, or refuse to have somebody repeat a question because they spoke into your deaf ear.
You may be talking about kids in a theme park but I'm speaking to the larger issue. We have developed a culture, at least in the US, where if some people choose to go to public places, they will be treated differently than others, some might say that they are given preferential treatment. I think that many people misunderstand the intent and purpose of laws such as IDEA (Individuals with Disabilities Education Act) which is not to make those that suffer from disabilities "special" but to provide them with supports and accommodations that help them to be treated equally as those who do not suffer from disabilities. Clearly, Disney's previous policy created the "special" rather than the "equal" and the current policy places everyone on a level field.
My point is not to disadvantage those with disabilities, I would never advocate for that; I just feel that those with disabilities and their families need to take responsibility. If your (not "you" personally but the supposed "you") child is going to cause a public disturbance to the point where it detracts from the enjoyment of hundreds of other people, maybe you should be an adult and realize that a theme park isn't such a great place to take them. Anticipate and take into account the needs of the child if they are unable to cope with the realities of a crowded theme park. Don't expect a company and the community at large to be responsible for something that has nothing to do with them. As long as accommodations have been made that will benefit the majority of the affected patrons, move on.
I don't feel self-entitled unless you are referring to the fact that we all feel entitled to some modicum of enjoyment when we pay money to attend some public attraction. Going back to my previous example; I wouldn't tolerate a screaming baby in a crowded theater, why should I put up with a screaming child anywhere else? It's not self-entitlement when it's the societal norm; self-entitlement usually means that you expect more than you actually are, societal, established norms are certainly an entitlement but one that the majority, not just myself, has access to.
Going by your measure, I suppose that I should sue the FLGS that I play at for not making stools available for me to sit on when I play games there. I often end an evening in a great deal of pain but chalk it up to my decision to be there but now I'll have to rethink that and make sure they have proper seating for me.
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Medium of Death wrote: A handful of New York rich families does not a crisis make. I still disagree that the response was well reasoned and fair considering the use of "sub-group" when referring to the disabled is in the first sentence and words like "public harmony". What does that even mean in this context? Quantify the harmony of a theme park full of excited children.
I apologize. I work in education and the term "sub-groups" are used by the federal government and throughout education to denote specific groups of students (i.e. IEP, ELL, Disadvanted..etc.) We are often called upon to disaggregate data based upon these populations. Public harmony comes from my time living in Asia where people are expected to be responsible for the effects that their actions may have on the community as a whole while in public.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/22 01:21:46
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
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