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 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Dannyrulx, I feel that it is important to note that you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some tart in a lake threw a sword at you.

Thunderlaughhammer

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
C'tan

So...they are powerful demigods who can warp reality around them, and yet they are no tougher than an oversized cockroach with armor plating.

That's because the Necrons KTFO'd their own gods, split them up into shards, and then imprisoned them in tiny shards. Although, sharded C'tan are still supposed to be quite a bit more powerful then they are on the TT.

Envihon wrote:I am glad to find that I am not the only one bothered by the lack of awesomeness when it comes to Terminators and Dreadnoughts along with other units. So, second part of the question, what would be the best way to correct these problems without making over-powered units?

SM, but not scouts, to cost a little more but have 2W and/or a decent GBP/IWND option. Fluff has marines battling on after losing a hand/arm/worse thanks to addition organs and various drugs so surely making them more resilient on the table is the obvious thing to do?

All Eldar/Dark Eldar, given their super-human agility, should be granted an automatic 5++ against basically anything that shoots, explodes, flames, etc. They are just that fast.

All Space Marines should have IWND/FNP and, base, be 2+ W. They should, perhaps more accurately, be given a 2++ against any small-arm on the table. That would include the basic weapons that are part of just about any army's list of wargear for their basic troops. Necrons would maybe bump this to a 4++ or 5++. It is noted that PA provides immunity to up to 85% of incoming fire from all but the strongest weapons found on the battlefields of the 41st millennium.

Necrons should just have a base 4++ across the board. They don't have organs, and their bodies heal themselves almost instantly. It takes a lot to put a Necron down, and *then* they Resurrect or Phase Out.

 Psienesis wrote:
All Eldar/Dark Eldar, given their super-human agility, should be granted an automatic 5++ against basically anything that shoots, explodes, flames, etc. They are just that fast.

All Space Marines should have IWND/FNP and, base, be 2+ W. They should, perhaps more accurately, be given a 2++ against any small-arm on the table. That would include the basic weapons that are part of just about any army's list of wargear for their basic troops. Necrons would maybe bump this to a 4++ or 5++. It is noted that PA provides immunity to up to 85% of incoming fire from all but the strongest weapons found on the battlefields of the 41st millennium.

Necrons should just have a base 4++ across the board. They don't have organs, and their bodies heal themselves almost instantly. It takes a lot to put a Necron down, and *then* they Resurrect or Phase Out.

Wow, that is some all sweeping changes that would fundamentally change the game. You don't think this would provide an over favoring of these three armies? I mean what could other armies do to counter-act these armies? The Eldar/Dark Eldar changes wouldn't be that hard to get around but the Space Marines having a 2+ Save with IWND/FNP would be hard enough to deal with, let along having to deal with a 2++ save against most small arms (Quick aside, how would that rule be written? Something like all AP4+ weapons, a Space Marine has a 2++ save against...although I would knock it down to 3++). And to give Necrons auto 5++ I would say is fair but 4++ would huge advantage and I know how hard they are to kill but damn, Necrons would be a force to be reckoned with.

You don't think this would provide an over favoring of these three armies?

It was just three suggestions, not an all-inclusive list. However, outside of these three (which is technically four armies), most of the other factions exist because plot armor permits them to exist. They don't have any fluff-provided reasons, or in-universe justifications, that explain why they are so badass.

The IG tend to die in droves, so perhaps there should be a faction-wide "SITNW" rule in effect? Only in specific units (Tanith 1st, DKOK, Savlar Chem-Dogs, Catachans, etc) is there any specific reason given as to why they survive their engagements without massive casualties (which are usually plot-armor anyway).

 Psienesis wrote:

You don't think this would provide an over favoring of these three armies?

It was just three suggestions, not an all-inclusive list. However, outside of these three (which is technically four armies), most of the other factions exist because plot armor permits them to exist. They don't have any fluff-provided reasons, or in-universe justifications, that explain why they are so badass.

The IG tend to die in droves, so perhaps there should be a faction-wide "SITNW" rule in effect? Only in specific units (Tanith 1st, DKOK, Savlar Chem-Dogs, Catachans, etc) is there any specific reason given as to why they survive their engagements without massive casualties (which are usually plot-armor anyway).

Yeah...I said three because I counted Eldar and Dark Eldar as the same army...I mean to an Imperial, they are just more xenos flith...so yeah...

What about the Tau, Sisters of Battle, Tyranids, Orks, Chaos Space Marines (Although I am assuming that you would roll the same rules you just said into CSM as well?) and Daemons?

I guess for the horde type armies (Tyranids, Orks and let's throw IG in there too), you could lower point costs so they could take a lot more to have more Dakka and more units that Space Marines and all those other tougher armies would have to wade through.

 Envihon wrote:
I am glad to find that I am not the only one bothered by the lack of awesomeness when it comes to Terminators and Dreadnoughts along with other units. So, second part of the question, what would be the best way to correct these problems without making over-powered units?

I think the balance is fine. The hobby is not designed to support fluffy balance, where you'd have half a dozen Grey Knights and hundreds of Cultists. Sounds cool but nobody wants to be the Chaos player who has to paint them all or the GK player who quickly runs out of things to paint.

The game is not even within 12 parsecs of a fluffy representation of the universe and I am okay with that.

What about the Tau, Sisters of Battle, Tyranids, Orks, Chaos Space Marines (Although I am assuming that you would roll the same rules you just said into CSM as well?) and Daemons?

The Tau continue to exist because of Plot Armor. If the Imperium could commit its military might to the backwater that is the Tau Empire, it would be ended.

The Sisters of Battle are fewer in number than the Space Marines and, in most depictions in fluff, generally die in heroic last stands and acts of martyrdom. Since they wear PA, maybe they would get the same Invulnerable save as Space Marines, maybe 1 point worse as they lack the bio-augmentations that SM have that allow them to ignore many wounds.

Orks tend to die in droves against anything they fight. Especially Space Marines. Rare is the Ork victory against anything other than the IG (who they simply outnumber), civilians, or other Orks. Against SM, especially, entire hordes are slaughtered by, like, 5 guys. So the basic Waaagh would have a SITNW rule, until you off the Waaaghboss. There's always more Boyz to get stuck in.

The Tyranids, too, don't care about how many bugs die. They should probably get a SITNW army-wide rule, until you've managed to kill off all the Synapse creatures (some of which should get Invisibility by default... just brain-bugs hiding out somewhere on the battlefield).

Daemons should get a 2++ Invulnerable, unless attacked with blessed/sanctified weapons or psychic attacks, because they aren't worried about things like "physical space" or "biology". Also, all Daemons are Psykers, and damned powerful ones. A basic Daemonette is like ML2. Roll out a Lord of Change? That mofo is like ML 9. They twist reality just by being in it.

CSM are another flavor of Space Marines, with tentacles (or flaming skull heads or fangs or some other Chaos Mutations...need to have more options and things for these).

BobNT wrote:

Envihon wrote:I am glad to find that I am not the only one bothered by the lack of awesomeness when it comes to Terminators and Dreadnoughts along with other units. So, second part of the question, what would be the best way to correct these problems without making over-powered units?

SM, but not scouts, to cost a little more but have 2W and/or a decent GBP/IWND option. Fluff has marines battling on after losing a hand/arm/worse thanks to addition organs and various drugs so surely making them more resilient on the table is the obvious thing to do?

They cost a little more, but still have two bolter shots? Your w2 tactical squad piles out of a rhino and your lulls your opponent into a sense of utter boredom.

Background gives you a special weapon and a heavy weapon per ten marine squad. If marines are four points more expensive, you get fewer meltaguns and fewer krak missiles.

Sure there are other places to get guns from in the army list, but it's not codex: melta speeder and grav centurion.

+quote

There are always those units in a codex that are really REALLY disappointing on tt compared to fluff.

Terminators and Dreadnoughts come to mind.

Then Howling Banshees, Flayed Ones, Chaos Raptors, Possessed Marines, MOST vehicles.

Oh wait I'm just listing assault based things... I wonder why.

dreadnaughts actually perform reasonably well imo. though I feel that they could be MUCH better... WS 5 BS 5 and 13/13/12 armor is not much to ask ;p

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
I am glad to find that I am not the only one bothered by the lack of awesomeness when it comes to Terminators and Dreadnoughts along with other units. So, second part of the question, what would be the best way to correct these problems without making over-powered units?

I think the balance is fine. The hobby is not designed to support fluffy balance, where you'd have half a dozen Grey Knights and hundreds of Cultists. Sounds cool but nobody wants to be the Chaos player who has to paint them all or the GK player who quickly runs out of things to paint.

The game is not even within 12 parsecs of a fluffy representation of the universe and I am okay with that.

That is an interesting perspective and I think you are right for the most part. As much as we would like a game that reflects what we read, it would create a state of overbalance heavily favoring one force over another and people would stop playing some of those armies. It is a needed compromise to keep the hobby alive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 raiden wrote:
dreadnaughts actually perform reasonably well imo. though I feel that they could be MUCH better... WS 5 BS 5 and 13/13/12 armor is not much to ask ;p

If they were armor 13, they would stop being such an asset against lance weapons

I am surprised no one has mentioned Assault Marines. Raptors and Warp Talons have been mentioned but people seemed to have left Assault Marines out of it. It is another unit I wished performed well especially since in video games, it is probably one of the more awesome things to play. Nothing is better than jetpacks and slamming back down to the ground.

 Psienesis wrote:
(which are usually plot-armor anyway).

Ah yes, because the SM totally never ever ever ever ever ever have plot armor

Oooooooooooh but fine, you can have you 2++ agaisnt everything and their mothers, so long that I get 10 Earthshaker cannons for every marine you get AND they can stay in reserve all game long because they're *that* far away.

Current TT balance is fine-ish, imo, fluffwise included.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
(which are usually plot-armor anyway).

Ah yes, because the SM totally never ever ever ever ever ever have plot armor

Oooooooooooh but fine, you can have you 2++ agaisnt everything and their mothers, so long that I get 10 Earthshaker cannons for every marine you get AND they can stay in reserve all game long because they're *that* far away.

Current TT balance is fine-ish, imo, fluffwise included.

You know, I wouldn't half mind if artillery could fire from reserves.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
(which are usually plot-armor anyway).

Ah yes, because the SM totally never ever ever ever ever ever have plot armor

Oooooooooooh but fine, you can have you 2++ agaisnt everything and their mothers, so long that I get 10 Earthshaker cannons for every marine you get AND they can stay in reserve all game long because they're *that* far away.

Current TT balance is fine-ish, imo, fluffwise included.

as long as I can deepstrike or pod into the backfield artillery, since, ya know. I am in space and striking at key locations

that aside TT balance is not fine. it needs work, but I agree that fluff should stay fluff and only be called on to come up with rules and stats.

Except there's so much cannons... you'll run out of marines before you can reach e'm all, eh.

Oh and as for the OP, yeah one more thing, long las are able to decapitate SM's, wish you'd be able to get something to that effect on the TT.

 Psienesis wrote:


All Space Marines should have IWND/FNP and, base, be 2+ W. They should, perhaps more accurately, be given a 2++ against any small-arm on the table. That would include the basic weapons that are part of just about any army's list of wargear for their basic troops.

I'm fine with it as long as the points are fine. Basic marines with 2 wounds and fnp for ~40-45 ppm are oki. Battlecannons will see the field more often in this case, i guess.

My only thing that I believe is definitly seen in a fluff that does not translate to TT are SM Charecters, Chapter Masters, Champians and, Captains. In the fluff SM die all the time, but a Champian who was able to hold of a Swarmloard can not even kill an Nob

Assault marines, tactical marines. Neither are good enough at melee due to low number of attacks.
Land raiders apparently have layers of ceramite, but aren't any more resilient against meltas.

Marine power armor plus all the genetic enhancements makes them no more resilient against s6 ap3 than a gretchin.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Except there's so much cannons... you'll run out of marines before you can reach e'm all, eh.

Oh and as for the OP, yeah one more thing, long las are able to decapitate SM's, wish you'd be able to get something to that effect on the TT.

Except.... they don't. Purely from a fluff perspective, Space Marines in small numbers absolutely crush Traitor Guard and such. Mainly because your Earthshakers would be smoking craters in the ground before the first Marine's boots hit the dirt, what with orbital bombardment and all.

Heavy Bolters are awesome in the fluff and DOW series.

Not so much in the TT.

In order to get things more towards being fluffy on the table, I'd start by bringing back the restrictions on how many of certain units you can include in your army. Then, I'd start placing upper ceilings on the total number of specific pieces of wargear in your army (no more than X plasma guns in the whole army for example).

You'd then need to double the points cost of everything, in order to have the scale necessary to balance everything in relation to everything else.

Indeed. What I posted earlier, what with the saves and all, is just a mental exercise to bring Fluff Marines to the tabletop, not how I would actually re-design 40K.

*That* is a much bigger project.

Hunam0001 wrote:
Heavy Bolters are awesome in the fluff and DOW series.

Not so much in the TT.

In order to get things more towards being fluffy on the table, I'd start by bringing back the restrictions on how many of certain units you can include in your army. Then, I'd start placing upper ceilings on the total number of specific pieces of wargear in your army (no more than X plasma guns in the whole army for example).

You'd then need to double the points cost of everything, in order to have the scale necessary to balance everything in relation to everything else.

Bolters overall should be much more powerful on the tabletop. They're 20mm autocannons for just the standard version Astartes carry, and 25mm for the heavy bolter.

 Bobthehero wrote:

Current TT balance is fine-ish, imo, fluffwise included.

I am sure you think it is, given how much it favours IG - arguably more than any other race.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

Current TT balance is fine-ish, imo, fluffwise included.

I am sure you think it is, given how much it favours IG - arguably more than any other race.

Last I checked the Meta, IG and everyone else were getting their butts mounted over the Eldar fireplace.

Heavy Bolters. These are guns the size of men that fire mass reactive explosive rockets the size do a fist. Machine gun rocket launcher. TT does not do this manly gun justice.

 Psienesis wrote:
Indeed. What I posted earlier, what with the saves and all, is just a mental exercise to bring Fluff Marines to the tabletop, not how I would actually re-design 40K.

*That* is a much bigger project.

Or...bring back rogue trader?

I mean, it could work as a financial move. GW could introduce Warhammer 40,000 : retro edition, which is basically a modernized reprint of RT.
The old players get their nostalgia fix, and the new players get to act like hipsters. Everybody wins!*


*Except for the old timers having to deal new players acting like they were around since the beginning, and the old players basically paying 50 bucks for an edition they technically already own.

I dunno, I'm not, personally, clamoring for a return to RT, and I don't think the mechanics worked particularly well even then. I mean, I've seen worse game systems (some produced by GW), but I've seen lots better, too.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Indeed. What I posted earlier, what with the saves and all, is just a mental exercise to bring Fluff Marines to the tabletop, not how I would actually re-design 40K.

*That* is a much bigger project.

Or...bring back rogue trader?

I mean, it could work as a financial move. GW could introduce Warhammer 40,000 : retro edition, which is basically a modernized reprint of RT.
The old players get their nostalgia fix, and the new players get to act like hipsters. Everybody wins!*


*Except for the old timers having to deal new players acting like they were around since the beginning, and the old players basically paying 50 bucks for an edition they technically already own.

I just want them to bring back BFG and dedicate forge world to it, while devoting actual resources into kill team.