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sebster wrote: Crimes such as this should be of no surprise to anyone. Not because Israel or its soldiers are somehow evil or whatever, but because this is the kind of thing that happens whenever you give people deadly weapons, little accountability and a whole lot of stress.
'Little accountability'? How does pulling the kid from his unit and starting an investigation equate to 'little accountability'?
Insert meme about missing the point here.
No, I didn't miss any point. But I'm sick of folks like Sebster who think any time some trooper from a western nation screws the pooch it is due in part to some perceived lack of accountability. In this particular case, there seems to be anything BUT a lack of accountability.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
With recent knife attacks, irs not surprising this has happened
The conflict dehumanizes life very easily.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/25 16:25:30
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
Da Boss wrote: I agree with that argument, which is why it annoys me that one side in the conflict gets astronomically more financial and military support than the other.
Generally speaking the US doesn't try to fund terrorist groups like Hamas. But im sure funding a group of people who openly support a campaign of stabbing random Israeli civilians is a worth while endeavor
The US has supported groups like this (who engaged in much the same, if not even more deplorable, behavior) throughout history depending on the interests of those in power in DC. Be it haitian or cuban revolutionaries throughout the 19th and 20th centuries, Afghan Mujahadeen in the 1980's, the CONTRA's, the Pinochet government, etc ad nauseum.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
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djones520 wrote: Lets stop acting like the Palestinians are innocent victims here.
The majority of the Palestinians - that is people who live in Palestine - are innocent victims, just as the majority of Israelis are innocent victims of rocket attacks. Can we please not confuse national identity with combatant status?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/25 22:55:23
The Kasrkin were just men. It made their actions all the more astonishing. Six white blurs, they fell upon the cultists, lasguns barking at close range. They wasted no shots. One shot, one kill. - Eisenhorn: Malleus
CptJake wrote: 'Little accountability'? How does pulling the kid from his unit and starting an investigation equate to 'little accountability'?
Yeah, this time, because it was caught on film. If you think this kind of thing doesn't happen regularly off camera then you are living in a land of make believe and candy cane.
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Sturmtruppen wrote: The majority of the Palestinians - that is people who live in Palestine - are innocent victims, just as the majority of Israelis are innocent victims of rocket attacks. Can we please not confuse national identity with combatant status?
Not only that, but even the combatants on both sides, including the ones who do despicable things, are also victims. This soldier who just capped a wounded Palestinian, it shouldn't be too hard to realise how much fear he's probably gone through in the lead up to the murder. That's why the moralising is so idiotic. Everyone in this mess is a victim of the situation.
But ultimately because we're human and we're not very good at understanding or even seeing situations and structures. We look at people and we call them good and we call them bad, and struggle to understand external factors that drive the choices people make.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/03/26 03:27:35
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Hamas exists and the Israelis have got to deal with them. Bombing and sniping hasn't worked and never will.
At some point it will have to be like Northern Ireland. Both sides will have to hold their noses, sit down at the negotiating table, and accept that there will be compromises in dealing with the crimes of the past in order to prevent the tit-for-tat exchange from extending indefinitely into the future.
Hamas exists and the Israelis have got to deal with them. Bombing and sniping hasn't worked and never will.
At some point it will have to be like Northern Ireland. Both sides will have to hold their noses, sit down at the negotiating table, and accept that there will be compromises in dealing with the crimes of the past in order to prevent the tit-for-tat exchange from extending indefinitely into the future.
I ran across this video the other day, and I think it did a good job reminding me that it's not a very clear "good guy vs bad guy" situation and that the current situation has a very long and complicated history.
Hamas exists and the Israelis have got to deal with them. Bombing and sniping hasn't worked and never will.
At some point it will have to be like Northern Ireland. Both sides will have to hold their noses, sit down at the negotiating table, and accept that there will be compromises in dealing with the crimes of the past in order to prevent the tit-for-tat exchange from extending indefinitely into the future.
Not so easy when one side does not even recognise israel as a state. So that makes any agreement worth gak from day one.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
Hamas came about because more peaceful movements were ignored and mugged off by the Israelis. If they are a monster, they are a monster Israel helped to create.
I fear the conflict is so many orders of magnitude worse than the Northern Irish conflict that it will never be resolved in a similar fashion. It is similar on the surface but many important factors are pretty different. The level of violence is also far higher.
Hamas exists and the Israelis have got to deal with them. Bombing and sniping hasn't worked and never will.
At some point it will have to be like Northern Ireland. Both sides will have to hold their noses, sit down at the negotiating table, and accept that there will be compromises in dealing with the crimes of the past in order to prevent the tit-for-tat exchange from extending indefinitely into the future.
Not so easy when one side does not even recognise israel as a state. So that makes any agreement worth gak from day one.
And the other does not recognize Palestine, so what's your point?
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Hamas exists and the Israelis have got to deal with them. Bombing and sniping hasn't worked and never will.
At some point it will have to be like Northern Ireland. Both sides will have to hold their noses, sit down at the negotiating table, and accept that there will be compromises in dealing with the crimes of the past in order to prevent the tit-for-tat exchange from extending indefinitely into the future.
Not so easy when one side does not even recognise israel as a state. So that makes any agreement worth gak from day one.
And the other does not recognize Palestine, so what's your point?
Simples. The UK, Irish had a degree to ground we agreed on, and both sides had similarities. The groups in Gaza, and Israel have very little to agree on.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
They are both inhabitants of the coastal east Mediterranean, combining modern urban and more traditional agricultural industries. While there are no Jewish Palestinians, AFAIK, there are plenty of Muslim Israelis. Finally, most people on both sides would prefer to live in peace and prosperity rather than a continuing cycle of low level violence and fear.
Hamas exists and the Israelis have got to deal with them. Bombing and sniping hasn't worked and never will.
At some point it will have to be like Northern Ireland. Both sides will have to hold their noses, sit down at the negotiating table, and accept that there will be compromises in dealing with the crimes of the past in order to prevent the tit-for-tat exchange from extending indefinitely into the future.
Not so easy when one side does not even recognise israel as a state. So that makes any agreement worth gak from day one.
And the other does not recognize Palestine, so what's your point?
Someone who doesn't know who Ariel Sharon was...
Israel objects to Palestinian statehood, and are for the creation of a state if it'll lead to an end of the conflict. However as the people who would lead that state currently advocate genocide against Israel, few are really working towards that. There's no use in giving Palestine UN recognition if that'll give them the right to petition about a wee invasion or two everything few years.
Besides that the Israeli ideal is for integration, as they have plenty of other Arab areas. Palestine position to this is on xenophobic grounds, considering one day a bunch of Jews decided to rise up and take over the old Mandate in their name. Of course were Palestine to be integrated it'd be a whole mess as things are now if the Israelis had to communicate in government with folks with Hamas' attitude.
In saying this, it benefits the current administration's politics on both sides to carry on with the war. Both sides want peace, but tell that to the extremists.=/
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/26 10:33:03
That's a slightly disingenuous reading of Israeli attitudes. They sidelined the peaceful Palestinian organisations and made them irrelevant, which is how Hamas came to power.
sebster wrote: But the first step towards making that happen will be when people stop cheering for one side or the other like they're football teams.
Dude. This. Exactly this. !
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
In saying this, it benefits the current administration's politics on both sides to carry on with the war. Both sides want peace, but tell that to the extremists.=/
I used to believe this. The last decade of Israeli policy in Palestine produces only one logical end; Israel, under current leadership, will never accept an independent Palestinian state, and continuation of the conflict is just so they can continue carving up the land where such a state would supposedly exist until such a state is impossible. They don't want to absorb Palestinians either. They want them forced out, otherwise their Jewish state becomes a Plurality state, which defeats the purpose of having a Jewish state. Thus Israeli politicians and governance is heavily invested politically into settlements (and more than a few of them are getting rich of it, so there's a bonus)
The Palestinians on the other hand have no one actually looking out for their best interests so they just do whatever they have to to get buy, and terrorist groups pay really good money to commit violent acts. The PLA is too weak to govern, and couldn't even if it wasn't because Israel doesn't care what they have to say. Hamas relies on violence for everything, including Israeli military offensives for PR. Both Hamas and the PLA have become financially invested in terrorism. One of the best ways for both groups to make money is to go abroad and say "give us money to fight the Israeli invaders." That of course mandates that both groups do what they do. The PLA lobbies for greater international recognition, and Hamas launches some rockets over into Israel every now and then.
I think the people want peace, but the groups governing them on both sides have become too invested ideologically and financially in the conflict to stop. The Palestinians are too disenfranchised to force a change in their governance, and Israel has simply become apathetic. Both sides are easily fear mongered because the violence against them is very real, which makes it even harder for the status quo to change.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/26 16:14:48
Population of Israel is 8.5 million, of whom 75% are Jewish and 20% are Arab (presumably Muslim) that is about 1.7 million Arabs.
Population of Palestine is 1.7 million, all Palestinian Muslim Arabs (I presume.)
If Israel incorporated Palestine, the combined Arab Muslim population would be about 30% of the total population. The Jewish population would still be an absolute majority.
Of course, speculation about possible voting patterns must take into account that neither the Jews, nor the Arabs, are monoblocs.
If Israel incorporated Palestine, the combined Arab Muslim population would be about 30% of the total population. The Jewish population would still be an absolute majority.
There's a big difference (in terms of political dynamics) between being 20% of the population and 30%. And that's before we throwing in a prevailing fear in Israel that the Palestinians living outside Israel will return once the violence ends, which could propel the non-Jewish population if that happened (big if assuming they all came back) to more than half of the population. There's 6 million + Palestinians living in surrounding states. Israel doesn't want to have to accept all those people as citizens which is a main reason they've continually rejected any acknowledgement of a Right of Return (for Palestinians).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/03/26 17:03:56
What would force a change in the status quo would be a choking off of military aid to Israel, forcing it to the negotiating table rather than giving it overwhelming force so that it can ignore palestinian grievances.
There are obviously problems with that, but I believe US policy toward Israel is a major factor in the continuing conflict.
Da Boss wrote: What would force a change in the status quo would be a choking off of military aid to Israel, forcing it to the negotiating table rather than giving it overwhelming force so that it can ignore palestinian grievances.
There are obviously problems with that, but I believe US policy toward Israel is a major factor in the continuing conflict.
I think that used to be true, but we're not as popular over there as we used to be. The current political machines in particular have very much been interested in ending US aid to Israel, both because Israel is at a point now where they don't really need it, and because we've used that relationship in the past to pressure them to end the violence which some there did not appreciate (former minster of defense something Arenes)
Especially since we cut shipment in 2014 briefly during a spike in violence in Gaza, Israel has been moving away from us on military aid.
The US definitely played a big role in the conflict throughout the 20th century, but we're past the point that a change in US policy will reliably result in a change in israel policy. I'd love to see a change in US policy (don't hold your breath), but realistically I don't think it'll help much. We're past the point where that would've mattered. Our policy changing might actually make things worse, as Israel already has a deeply internalized victim complex where it comes to international politics.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/03/26 17:15:53
Da Boss wrote: What would force a change in the status quo would be a choking off of military aid to Israel, forcing it to the negotiating table rather than giving it overwhelming force so that it can ignore palestinian grievances.
There are obviously problems with that, but I believe US policy toward Israel is a major factor in the continuing conflict.
I think that used to be true, but we're not as popular over there as we used to be. The current political machines in particular have very much been interested in ending US aid to Israel, both because Israel is at a point now where they don't really need it, and because we've used that relationship in the past to pressure them to end the violence which some there did not appreciate (former minster of defense something Arenes)
Especially since we cut shipment in 2014 briefly during a spike in violence in Gaza, Israel has been moving away from us on military aid.
The US definitely played a big role in the conflict throughout the 20th century, but we're past the point that a change in US policy will reliably result in a change in israel policy. I'd love to see a change in US policy (don't hold your breath), but realistically I don't think it'll help much. We're past the point where that would've mattered. Our policy changing might actually make things worse, as Israel already has a deeply internalized victim complex where it comes to international politics.
So agree
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If the Republicans are the ones calling the guys who load teenagers up with explosives and send them to detonate on buses or in pizzerias to kill as many civilians as possible the bad guys, then sure, sign me up.
The Hamas apologia in this thread is pretty amusing: "Well, the Israelis ignored the peaceful Palestinians, so of course they had to resort to doing their best to kill Israeli children!"
They've been fighting this "war" for 70 years, and haven't had any success. Maybe it's time they realize they're really, really bad at it and give up the ghost.
They've been fighting this "war" for 70 years, and haven't had any success. Maybe it's time they realize they're really, really bad at it and give up the ghost.
Would you? Did the 'Jews'?
I know I wouldn't.
Oppressed populations, and the Palestinians are very much oppressed, will always resist especially when that resistance has become firmly embedded in their culture. Its also definitely worth remembering that some of the founders of Israel, including a former Prime Minster, were themselves terrorists.
I am not excusing the use of soft targets, and never will, but its sheer blindness to think that Israel is the 'good guy' here; there are no good guys.
If the Republicans are the ones calling the guys who load teenagers up with explosives and send them to detonate on buses or in pizzerias to kill as many civilians as possible the bad guys, then sure, sign me up.
...
It was your unsubtle dismissive comment about singing Kumbaya that was typically Republican.
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