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 Kilkrazy wrote:
Population of Israel is 8.5 million, of whom 75% are Jewish and 20% are Arab (presumably Muslim) that is about 1.7 million Arabs.

Population of Palestine is 1.7 million, all Palestinian Muslim Arabs (I presume.)

If Israel incorporated Palestine, the combined Arab Muslim population would be about 30% of the total population. The Jewish population would still be an absolute majority.

Of course, speculation about possible voting patterns must take into account that neither the Jews, nor the Arabs, are monoblocs.

If Israel incorporates Palestine Isreal ceases to exist. They know this. Palestine knows this.

Why doesn't Egypt incorporate Gaza and Jordan Palestine? Because they know they would reap the whirlwind.

Because people have seen what happens when you try to incorporate them, they try and launch a coup against you.

More then that. They slaughter all the Jews.

There are no Jews in Gaza. There are no Jews in the West Bank, There were no Jews in the Old City after the 48 war. they were all killed or driven out.

 Ustrello wrote:
Because people have seen what happens when you try to incorporate them, they try and launch a coup against you.

Indeed, call it naive, but this situation isn't just the fault of Israel and Palestine. Its the rest of the Middle East's apathy which is the problem. If any of them actually gave a damn for doing anything other than pissing off the Israelis we wouldn't be where we are now with Palestine.

How many here. Would actually go live in the Middle East.

No thanks. Lots of teachers with my experience go to work in Dubai or other Gulf states educating the children of the oil rich.

I wouldn't do that because I disagree vehemently with the politics of the Gulf states.

Plus I can't even think above 34 degrees C!

Oh Come on Boss....don't you all have a Program like the US Peace Corp....wait one......now that I think about it.....They're not in Kuwait....Iraq....Afghanistan.....Israel.....Egypt(?)...think Jordan...

A simpler solution would be to realize the ambitions of King Adbullah of Transjordan ( what the land was prior) and have Jordan annex all the palestinian territories to Jordan. There was never a "palestinian" state their to begin with. There would not be a viable one with the territories left them anyhow for a 2 state solution, so give it to Jordan.

 Frazzled wrote:
More then that. They slaughter all the Jews.

There are no Jews in Gaza. There are no Jews in the West Bank

Well, I would say that given that if you are a Jew living in Gaza or the West Bank, there is a way more hospitable country ready (and eager even) to welcome you, a few dozens/hundreds of kilometers away, so need for anyone to slaughter you for you to want to move out…

 Jihadin wrote:
How many here. Would actually go live in the Middle East.

If Iran is part of the Middle East, then not definitely, but I think I could enjoy spending a few years there.

 thekingofkings wrote:
A simpler solution would be to realize the ambitions of King Adbullah of Transjordan ( what the land was prior) and have Jordan annex all the palestinian territories to Jordan. There was never a "palestinian" state their to begin with. There would not be a viable one with the territories left them anyhow for a 2 state solution, so give it to Jordan.

Jordan wants absolutely nothing to do with the Palestinian territories.

 Frazzled wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:
A simpler solution would be to realize the ambitions of King Adbullah of Transjordan ( what the land was prior) and have Jordan annex all the palestinian territories to Jordan. There was never a "palestinian" state their to begin with. There would not be a viable one with the territories left them anyhow for a 2 state solution, so give it to Jordan.

Jordan wants absolutely nothing to do with the Palestinian territories.

The West Bank was actually Jordan territory before the 6-day War iirc. Gaza was Egyptian, but I don't think Egypt would like that place back.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:
A simpler solution would be to realize the ambitions of King Adbullah of Transjordan ( what the land was prior) and have Jordan annex all the palestinian territories to Jordan. There was never a "palestinian" state their to begin with. There would not be a viable one with the territories left them anyhow for a 2 state solution, so give it to Jordan.

Jordan wants absolutely nothing to do with the Palestinian territories.

The West Bank was actually Jordan territory before the 6-day War iirc. Gaza was Egyptian, but I don't think Egypt would like that place back.

Exactly. Neither Egypt nor Jordan want anything to do with that hornet's nest.
1. on the one hand it shows how far the region has come. Two of the big combatants are now effectively out of it(keep us out of it).
2. It also shows how messed up the situation is. These territories have become a real world sociology experiment invented by some evil mad scientist. Even if Gaza and the West Bank were normal, they are so small they cannot effectively exist on their own.

I am not sure I am following the events clearly, but is this correct:

2 Men stab a soldier (attempting to kill him), and are shot in return.

While wounded but not killed, one of the attackers is finished off by another one of the soldiers.

Is this correct?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
That's true, but it is against the rules and has to be investigated and punished, or eventually we will all be back in the Dark Ages.

Who said we ever left?

KTG17 wrote:
I am not sure I am following the events clearly, but is this correct:

2 Men stab a soldier (attempting to kill him), and are shot in return.

While wounded but not killed, one of the attackers is finished off by another one of the soldiers.

Is this correct?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
That's true, but it is against the rules and has to be investigated and punished, or eventually we will all be back in the Dark Ages.

Who said we ever left?

That is the jist of it, but he was already on the ground wounded or dying. But he did try to kill people and was killed in return.

A Town Called Malus wrote:Absolutely disgusting. Am glad to hear that the Israeli army is investigating and I really do not see how this cannot result in a conviction.

The man stabbed an Israeli soldier.

I have no sympathy for the man in question.

Palestinians don't want to be executed? Then let them stop stabbing Israeli soldiers.

Easy fix.

Traditio wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:Absolutely disgusting. Am glad to hear that the Israeli army is investigating and I really do not see how this cannot result in a conviction.

The man stabbed an Israeli soldier.

I have no sympathy for the man in question.

I don't think I read any post implying the guy was worthy of sympathy. That has nothing to do with wether or not the trooper who capped him was right or wrong for doing so.

CptJake wrote:I don't think I read any post implying the guy was worthy of sympathy. That has nothing to do with wether or not the trooper who capped him was right or wrong for doing so.

How do you read "absolutely disgusting?"

Basically, the OP boils down to this:

Palestinian stabs Israel soldier.
Israeli soldier executes Palestinian.
Israeli news sources don't seem to care.
How awful!

Except...are we missing the fact that the Palestinian stabbed an Israeli soldier? Are we missing the fact that Palestinians stabbing Israeli soldiers is apparently a common thing?

This reminds me of the Black Lives Matter people.

#Bluelivesmatter

Traditio wrote:

CptJake wrote:I don't think I read any post implying the guy was worthy of sympathy. That has nothing to do with wether or not the trooper who capped him was right or wrong for doing so.

How do you read "absolutely disgusting?"

Basically, the OP boils down to this:

Palestinian stabs Israel soldier.
Israeli soldier executes Palestinian.
Israeli news sources don't seem to care.
How awful!

Except...are we missing the fact that the Palestinian stabbed an Israeli soldier? Are we missing the fact that Palestinians stabbing Israeli soldiers is apparently a common thing?

This reminds me of the Black Lives Matter people.

#Bluelivesmatter

The Palestinian was lying on the ground, wounded. At that point, we're in mop-up phase. The man is no longer a threat. He's a prisoner with rights. He was executed, which is something we don't accept.

While I also won't shed a tear for him, what the Israeli soldier did was wrong, and more recent news reports show he has been picked up and will likely face trial.

That is how we handle things in a civilized world. Please, if you feel so strongly about this, go move over there and teach them how wrong they are. Join the armed forces. See the world. Kill a prisoner. Get a court martial and spend the rest of your life in Fort Leavenworth, to steal a line from A Few Good Men.

We don't want you on that wall, Traditio. We don't need you on that wall.

 CptJake wrote:

Traditio wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:Absolutely disgusting. Am glad to hear that the Israeli army is investigating and I really do not see how this cannot result in a conviction.

The man stabbed an Israeli soldier.

I have no sympathy for the man in question.

I don't think I read any post implying the guy was worthy of sympathy. That has nothing to do with wether or not the trooper who capped him was right or wrong for doing so.

I think it's also in the title calling him a suspect when it's pretty well known that he did what he did.

Traditio wrote:

CptJake wrote:I don't think I read any post implying the guy was worthy of sympathy. That has nothing to do with wether or not the trooper who capped him was right or wrong for doing so.

How do you read "absolutely disgusting?"

Basically, the OP boils down to this:

Palestinian stabs Israel soldier.
Israeli soldier executes Palestinian.
Israeli news sources don't seem to care.
How awful!

Except...are we missing the fact that the Palestinian stabbed an Israeli soldier? Are we missing the fact that Palestinians stabbing Israeli soldiers is apparently a common thing?

This reminds me of the Black Lives Matter people.

#Bluelivesmatter

Palestinian stabs Israel soldier.
SKIPPED STEP: Israeli Troops engage scum bags. One killed one laying on the ground wounded and at that point unarmed and not resisting.
Israeli soldier executes Palestinian.

At some point you transition from 'cap him' to 'okay, everything is secure, he is unarmed and not resisting, lets try to patch him up and send him to the interrogators'. Basically, once the objective area is secure, you are generally responsible for wounded bad guys, even if a couple of minutes before hand you were still trying to kill him.

At least that is the way I learned it, and the way I trained my guys.

Traditio wrote:

Except...are we missing the fact that the Palestinian stabbed an Israeli soldier?

And?

Under no circumstances can any soldier become Judge Dread once the rounds stop flying. If he does decide to become Judge Dread that means that he is a war criminal and should be treated accordingly.

 CptJake wrote:

I don't think I read any post implying the guy was worthy of sympathy.

In fairness he was murdered so he does deserve some sympathy on that basis alone.

I don't think that the vast majority of posters here, whatever their opinion of the parties involved, have any problem with an IDF soldier engaging a guy who is stabbing them.

Traditio wrote:
Except...are we missing the fact that the Palestinian stabbed an Israeli soldier? Are we missing the fact that Palestinians stabbing Israeli soldiers is apparently a common thing?

No. I think we are all pretty clear on that. What there seems to be disagreement on is when use of force may continue. For most of us it seems use of force may continue so long as there is still a threat, and that the detained individual was no longer a threat. Extra judicial killing of a suspect should, rightly, be frowned upon and the perpetrator punished.

Am I missing something? soldier caps a prisoner, soldier is pulled out and investigated. Sounds like what you want to happen.

Whats the issue?

 CptJake wrote:

Traditio wrote:

CptJake wrote:I don't think I read any post implying the guy was worthy of sympathy. That has nothing to do with wether or not the trooper who capped him was right or wrong for doing so.

How do you read "absolutely disgusting?"

Basically, the OP boils down to this:

Palestinian stabs Israel soldier.
Israeli soldier executes Palestinian.
Israeli news sources don't seem to care.
How awful!

Except...are we missing the fact that the Palestinian stabbed an Israeli soldier? Are we missing the fact that Palestinians stabbing Israeli soldiers is apparently a common thing?

This reminds me of the Black Lives Matter people.

#Bluelivesmatter

Palestinian stabs Israel soldier.
SKIPPED STEP: Israeli Troops engage scum bags. One killed one laying on the ground wounded and at that point unarmed and not resisting.
Israeli soldier executes Palestinian.

At some point you transition from 'cap him' to 'okay, everything is secure, he is unarmed and not resisting, lets try to patch him up and send him to the interrogators'. Basically, once the objective area is secure, you are generally responsible for wounded bad guys, even if a couple of minutes before hand you were still trying to kill him.

At least that is the way I learned it, and the way I trained my guys.

That's the way it should be. You should have a valid justification for every time you pull the trigger.

 Frazzled wrote:
Am I missing something? soldier caps a prisoner, soldier is pulled out and investigated. Sounds like what you want to happen.

Whats the issue?

Investigated, they pull them out, find out what went on and proceed based on info gained as to result. What's wrong here?

DutchWinsAll wrote:
You know whats the difference? Israel is investigating instead of celebrating. Rule of law and all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also that sound seems fake. Like you can clearly hear him cock his gun from what looks to be more than a few yards away.

Maybe guns cock louder in the ME or maybe the video was highlighted with relevant sounds at the forefront, all very easy with digital video, so I will reserve judgement. The head definitely moves so I do think that guy was shot lying down, but there are some audio inconsistencies in my mind.

You can hear the charging handle on an M16/M4 from about a kilometer away, given the correct environmental conditions. Sound seems fine.

First part of your post nails it though. And the parallels drawn to Nazis and other war criminals are simply idiotic - one soldier (probably 18 or 19 years old) shot a terrorist who just stabbed one of his friends. Suddenly all Israelis are evil? The bias on this forum is completely disgusting.

 CptJake wrote:
No, I didn't miss any point. But I'm sick of folks like Sebster who think any time some trooper from a western nation screws the pooch it is due in part to some perceived lack of accountability. In this particular case, there seems to be anything BUT a lack of accountability.

And I'm really, hopelessly sick of internet people who project so much in to other people's posts that I'm honestly left wondering why they bother reading, they should just be talking with themselves.

I never criticised the iDF, because there is nothing to criticise the IDF for when it comes to this. But you're missing the difference between a lack of accountability because of a lack of punishment (not the problem here), and a lack of accountability because it is basically impossible to know what every soldier is doing during a conflict.

But by all means just make up stuff about 'folks like sebster'. That always leads to useful conversation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Seaward wrote:
I dunno, I'm pretty okay with calling, say, Hamas the bad guys.

They do some pretty gakky things pretty consistently, but I'm pretty okay with calling that any effort to pick out good guys and bad guys a fairly useless way of looking at the problem.

Think of it this way, if you got intel that let you wipe out the entirety of Hamas tomorrow, then a year from now there'd be another organisation doing Hamas things. Because Hamas is a product of the situation, they fill a position created by the circumstances.

This doesn't mean we need to embrace Hamas, but any thinking that you solve this by taking on Hamas directly is just wrong.

I also rarely break out the guitar to sing Kumbaya around the campfire, though.

You mention that a lot. I think you might protest too much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jhe90 wrote:
Not so easy when one side does not even recognise israel as a state. So that makes any agreement worth gak from day one.

This argument gets trotted out every time, and it makes zero sense. Palestine doesn't recognise Israel, but Israel not only fails to recognise Palestine either, they are actively claiming more and more of Palestine as Israel every year. And yet apparently the only problem is failure to recognise Israel, because reasons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Suddenly all Israelis are evil? The bias on this forum is completely disgusting.

No-one has said that. It can't even be interpreted in to anyone's statements. You're just making gak up.

This is a complex and challenging subject when everyone comes to it honestly, when people make disingenuous posts like yours above it becomes near impossible. So stop it. Start reading what people actually post, and spend time thinking about their actual point of view. Or maybe just don't post in these threads if you're not capable of that.

 Ustrello wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

Traditio wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:Absolutely disgusting. Am glad to hear that the Israeli army is investigating and I really do not see how this cannot result in a conviction.

The man stabbed an Israeli soldier.

I have no sympathy for the man in question.

I don't think I read any post implying the guy was worthy of sympathy. That has nothing to do with wether or not the trooper who capped him was right or wrong for doing so.

I think it's also in the title calling him a suspect when it's pretty well known that he did what he did.

Whilst true that it seems like an open and shut case with regards to the palestinian, there is still the protocol of innocent until proven guilty, hence my use of suspect.

This is why those who have a more neutral viewpoint, or heaven's to betsy, defend Israel, feel a bit put upon by nonsensical comparisons.

UN cites Israel as world's worst human rights violator:
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/03/29/can-t-make-it-up-un-names-democratic-israel-as-world-s-top-human-rights-violator.html