Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
I've often heard that Star Trek The Next Generations "The Measure of a Man" is one of THE important Star Trek episodes - the one where Data is on trial.
Additionally the episode entitled, "The Drumhead" - though I've not actually seen that one, I think.
In the US Politics thread a month or so ago, I remember someone disparaging Star Trek as "Sesame Street for adults." And, you know what, I agree. But, I don't see it as an insult, I think these morality tales, as often seen in Science Fiction and, as well, of course, Superhero stories and films, are important for society, for learning about ourselves, even as adults.
I'm going to nominate the series finale of Blake's 7, simply titled "Blake". The whole series is great, except for one or two episodes (mostly in season 1 and 4) but the finale still gets talked about in scifi circles thirty-five years after it aired.
Oh, and my DS9 pick is episode 19 "Duet". After 18 episodes of bland, formula, boring even for Star Trek stories, we get an episode that comes out of nowhere and harkens back to the glory days of TOS, with a story that could easily stand up along side "City on the Edge of Forever" and "Let This be Your Last Battlefield". It was the episode that convinced me to keep watching DS9.
Emperor's Eagles (undergoing Chapter reorganization)
Caledonian 95th (undergoing regimental reorganization)
Thousands Sons (undergoing Warband re--- wait, are any of my 40K armies playable?)
Compel wrote: I've often heard that Star Trek The Next Generations "The Measure of a Man" is one of THE important Star Trek episodes - the one where Data is on trial.
Additionally the episode entitled, "The Drumhead" - though I've not actually seen that one, I think.
They're definitely two of the more memorable episodes (The Drumhead would probably make a top 5 list for me).
Whilst in not a big Trek fan I think the previously mentioned In the Pale Moonlight. along with Far Beyond the Stars were outstanding episodes partly because you didnt have know any Trek for them to work. and partly because Avery Brooks is awesome
Dr Who, as an old gimmer growing up in the Baker era the whole nu-Who hasn't really impressed but Girl in the Fireplace was a gem of an episode
New BSG episode "33", really conveyed the whole they cant be bargained with, they cant be reasoned with, they doesn't feel pity, remorse or fear, and they absolutely will not stop until you are all dead menace of the Cylons
"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED."
Babylon 5. I'd argue the series was before it's time - certainly it's five year fixed story arc was new to me, and coloured what came after.
What follows is a scene from very late on - Season 4, I think (possibly 5?). So on the off chance you've not watched the series, SPOILER WARNING
There's also an entire episode that explores grunt life aboard the station - I can't remember it's name or season, but it really helps bring the whole series to life.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/06 13:20:29
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
One thing I didn't realise until later was that now we're used to thinking of Ripley as the heroine of the Alien movies, but at the time, Weaver was the least known actor in the cast. The crew get knocked off almost in descending order of fame, and it was quite common for horror movies of the time to end in a TPK. Looking at it in that light really ups the tension.
And in the same vein, Terminator 2 and "Come with me if you want to live." Yes, it's common knowledge NOW that Arnie is the good guy in this one, but if you put yourself in the place of someone who'd seen the first movie and was watching the second one cold, you'd assume he was reprising his role as the villain right up until that moment.
I did have the fortune to see The Matrix unspoiled, and the line "Welcome....to the real world." made my jaw drop.
"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich."
Morden: "What do you want?"
Vir: "I'd like to live just long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favours come with too high a price. I would look up into your lifeless eyes and wave, like this. Can you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"
Morden: "What do you want?"
Vir: "I'd like to live just long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favours come with too high a price. I would look up into your lifeless eyes and wave, like this. Can you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"
And he does!
Again whilst not a big B5 fan I'll admit the payoff to that line was pure gold, I always found the small storys of the 'secondary' characters more fun than the muddled Order/Chaos musing of the main plot, Lennir and the Ninja being a personal fav
"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED."
Morden: "What do you want?"
Vir: "I'd like to live just long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favours come with too high a price. I would look up into your lifeless eyes and wave, like this. Can you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"
And he does!
Babylon 5 has tons of these awesome moments, stuff that gets foreshadowed years ahead of time and carried out perfectly many seasons later.
Vir's short interactions with Morden were highly amusing .
I actually found the ultimate conclusion of the big Vorlons/Shadows/Lorien story arc to be something of a giant stupid buzzkill, but as someone else noted, the personal stories and interactions flow so amazingly and intricately that they make for an amazing show nonetheless.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/06 19:53:17
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Morden: "What do you want?"
Vir: "I'd like to live just long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favours come with too high a price. I would look up into your lifeless eyes and wave, like this. Can you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"
And he does!
Babylon 5 has tons of these awesome moments, stuff that gets foreshadowed years ahead of time and carried out perfectly many seasons later.
Vir's short interactions with Morden were highly amusing .
I actually found the ultimate conclusion of the big Vorlons/Shadows/Lorien story arc to be something of a giant stupid buzzkill, but as someone else noted, the personal stories and interactions flow so amazingly and intricately that they make for an amazing show nonetheless.
It was a tremendously brave bit of television - so far as I'm aware, it was the first SciFi to attempt a single, unified story arc from the get go. Try that now and they'll likely laugh at you, despite the success of similar shows since!
As for Vir?
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
that's probably the most sci-fi episode, and one that's great, even if it's mostly a heist episode. The way it locks so much of the overall plot of the series (River's powers, Jayne's loyalty, and the hands of blue) is really masterful.
Spoiler:
Watching the Hands of Blue casually kill the marshals made it clear exactly how high profile River's case was, and is one of the handful of truly authoritarian things we see the Alliance do.
My personal favorite moment in sci-fi is probably the end of Ender's Game. The sudden crash of emotions, and the way the reality sets into Ender, turns a story that had mostly been military sci-fi into something other, especially when read prior to Speaker for the Dead.
Morden: "What do you want?"
Vir: "I'd like to live just long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favours come with too high a price. I would look up into your lifeless eyes and wave, like this. Can you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"
And he does!
That's the Shadows for you - they give you whatever you want
And of course did anyone pay any attention to the warning /Vir's message - nope.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It was a tremendously brave bit of television - so far as I'm aware, it was the first SciFi to attempt a single, unified story arc from the get go. Try that now and they'll likely laugh at you, despite the success of similar shows since!
From what I got told, around series 2, they cut series 5 altogether.
Then, after he'd re-written series 3 and 4 to cater for this, they let him have it back. It's why series 5 is so different, arc-wise.
The infantry platoon jumping on from the station was Gropos, I think.
I want to say my favourite ep of Babylon5 is the Day of the Dead, just as it brought a lot of good characters back for one episode.
I have watched some of B5 a couple of times since it was in, but got cringe-worthy at times. When it was on, the newness of it all helped to cover that up.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/03/08 14:08:50
As much as I did not like Stargate Universe and felt it crapped all over what made Stargate great up until that point, At the end of Season 2 when they encounter the civilization that was made up of descendants of their alternate timeline selves, I thought that was really interesting.
I'll nominate the following TNG episodes:
Parallels
The Inner Light
The Best of Both Worlds Parts I & II
Darmok
Clues
Cause and Effect
The Game
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Does anyone else feel that when the effects are dodgy, and the budget is scant, you actually get a more thought provoking SciFi experience?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Does anyone else feel that when the effects are dodgy, and the budget is scant, you actually get a more thought provoking SciFi experience?
I think you might be onto something there Doc, although its possible that a lifetime of British sci-fi might have inflicted some bias on us, for example I think, really dire episodes aside, that the McCoy era of Dr Who had some of best storytelling despite being made on about a fiver
"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED."
I'm not sure there's always correlation. There's a lot of great sci-fi that succeeds despite special effects that are either dated or weren't very good in the first place, but equally, I don't think having good effects hold shows back. New BSG and Firefly both look great and have considerable budgets, yet still hold up to TNG or older Dr Who that are excellent despite the fact the sets are visibly made of cardboard and half the costumes come from a charity shop (ok, that's a little harsh! ).
You can make superb sci-fi on a tiny budget, if you can get together a good cast, or be clever with sets and effects, or just write a bloody good script, but at the same time, having a big budget doesn't need to hold a sci-fi back at all, and can add a lot. Take new Trek (big budget, crap films) vs old Trek (no budget, often brilliant) and you can see both ends of the spectrum, but I don't think there's any causal link between quality and budget.
What can be said is that the lack of budget and shaky effects do leave more room for imagination, which is what the genre is fundamentally built on. Sometimes, having to fill in the blanks yourself can lead to something better than anything they could put on screen.
I am honestly surprised to see how well nBSG is remembered. It felt to me like the whole show went off the rails right around the boxing episode and never recovered, ending with the worst-received series finale that isn't Lost. The first two seasons were phenomenal (except for the black market episode. Euugh), but I just can't rewatch them knowing where it all leads.
The low budget thing will either cause a show to compensate in other departments, with great scripts or acting, or else it will fail so badly people don't remember the show at all. We only remember the successes. The best example of all time is the film Jaws, which became a masterpiece when Spielberg had to figure out how to film a shark movie around a robot shark that didn't work.
I think nBSG kind of gets more divisive in the later seasons relating to the increase in the religious elements that ended up being 'real.'
So I think it's probably a case of the people who were ok with that, ended up REALLY liking it, whereas the people who weren't, kinda checked out of it.
For example, I always really enjoy it when shows really do explore that sort of thing (Such as Season 11 of Supernatural), but for others, they're really put off of it.
BSG definitely changed direction pretty majorly, but I don't think it suffered for it. I can definitely see how the move from pure sci-fi to the pseudo-religious and metaphysical stuff would put some people off, but I reckon it was all done pretty well, and sustained the show longer than just 'the last humans on a broken ship running away from robots' could have. The whole 'Final Five' mystery had a few great payoffs (particularly the end of S3 reveal), and as a whole made the show something quite unique just when it was in danger of becoming generic.
I wasn't aware people weren't generally keen on how it ended, I was fine with it... It was certainly unexpected, but as a final twist it worked rather nicely and pretty much every character and story arc had a satisfying conclusion.
Great idea for a thread! My top picks would probably be, off the top of my head:
- Rutger Hauer's (Roy Batty) final speech at the end of Blade Runner. Or actually the start of that film, where you see the city-scape with the Vangelis music in the background.
- The moment Keanu Reeves comments that "I know Kung Fu" in the Matrix. Or when he finally takes on an Agent (no-one has ever done that before! The music switches to a minor, warning tone) and we see that seminal piece of bullet-time effects when dodging the bullets.
- The sense of fear and wonder when the crew of the Nostromo explore the alien ship. The unknown skeleton in the chair, and then that scene in the canteen..
- When you realise that HAL is lip-reading David in 2001, and knows exactly what the crew are going to do..
- The end of Invasion of the Body Snatchers when Brook Adams approaches Donald Sutherland. She starts to cry and laugh, then suddenly the pointing, that horrible, horrible scream and the camera shot zooms in..
- Terminator 2 when the liquid metal Robert Patrick walks out of the flaming truck wreckage. By the end of the film you have a lump in your throat in that final scene..
- In possibly the most masterful, suspenseful (and downright uncomfortable) scene ever committed to film, Kurt Russell's McReady sticks a hot wire into blood to see who is really an alien in human skin. The jump comes when you least expect it..
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Does anyone else feel that when the effects are dodgy, and the budget is scant, you actually get a more thought provoking SciFi experience?
Definitely think you can get some quite poor (or cheaply made) sci-fi that works very well if the story is right. I'm thinking of the likes of Dark Star, or Silent Running. Even Mad Max has still got a lot of charm to it, and They Live, which has the best punch-up of any film ever made!
Compel wrote:
In the US Politics thread a month or so ago, I remember someone disparaging Star Trek as "Sesame Street for adults." And, you know what, I agree. But, I don't see it as an insult, I think these morality tales, as often seen in Science Fiction and, as well, of course, Superhero stories and films, are important for society, for learning about ourselves, even as adults.
I agree wholeheartedly. It's just a shame that the people that would benefit most from it would be the ones least likely to watch.
Compel wrote:
Science Fiction and, as well, of course, Superhero stories and films, are important for society, for learning about ourselves, even as adults.
I agree wholeheartedly. It's just a shame that the people that would benefit most from it would be the ones least likely to watch.
Part of me agrees with you, in that there is a whole chunk of society who don't watch it and wouldn't. However, there's certainly plenty of jerks who are into science fiction as well (they're usually the ones running around calling people fake geeks) and maybe, just maybe, one day there will be that one story that resonates with them in just the right way at that single point where the metaphor isn't too obscure and isn't too 'on the nose' that they take offence that, maybe, just maybe, a lesson is learned from it.
Paradigm wrote: BSG definitely changed direction pretty majorly, but I don't think it suffered for it. I can definitely see how the move from pure sci-fi to the pseudo-religious and metaphysical stuff would put some people off, but I reckon it was all done pretty well, and sustained the show longer than just 'the last humans on a broken ship running away from robots' could have. The whole 'Final Five' mystery had a few great payoffs (particularly the end of S3 reveal), and as a whole made the show something quite unique just when it was in danger of becoming generic.
I wasn't aware people weren't generally keen on how it ended, I was fine with it... It was certainly unexpected, but as a final twist it worked rather nicely and pretty much every character and story arc had a satisfying conclusion.
Hrm, for me the show suffered a lot. Watching through the show at the time and again in hindsight, you can pretty much tell when the writers strike happened and they start getting...weird, and a lot of the stuff people complained about ended up being stuff the writers later admitted they did for shock value and could only "undo" by going down the whole mystical religious route. They wrote themselves into corners without really thinking things through.
The ending was also pretty awful, at least in my opinion. First hour was awesome, killer robots, space ships duking it out, nukes, etc. No complaints there. Then they macguffin an absurdly implausible ending ("wow, there's a species on this random alien world we magically find that's perfect for us, with our last possible jump, that's physically and genetically identical to us, what are the chances? Beeteedubbs Thrace was an angel!") with asinine reasoning for abandoning all technology ("well, the natives have nothing better than sticks and fire, better dump the starships, computers, firearms, aircraft, radios, food preparation and medical technology, all repositories of knowledge, environmental gear, etc into the sun or we may reinvent those damn Cylons...") in the last 40 minutes of the show
/imnotbitter.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Compel wrote: I think nBSG kind of gets more divisive in the later seasons relating to the increase in the religious elements that ended up being 'real.'
So I think it's probably a case of the people who were ok with that, ended up REALLY liking it, whereas the people who weren't, kinda checked out of it.
For example, I always really enjoy it when shows really do explore that sort of thing (Such as Season 11 of Supernatural), but for others, they're really put off of it.
Yes, after the Pegasus episodes I basically checked out once the religious stuff started. If an episode looked interesting I'd watch it, but that was uncommon.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
BSG suffered from the Writer's Strike, which forced them to condense their story telling.
Whilst we'll never know for sure, I like to think the Religious angle would've worked better given it's full intended story arc - with repeated watchings it does make more sense, but I can fully understand those who don't fancy the effort.
On the low budget - better SciFi. Of course it's not a binding rule, but I get the impression that when it works (Dr Who etc) it's because the writers knew the effects could only do so much, so needed to 'sell' the story in other ways.
And lower budgets have also led to new effects etc which have become industry standard. I mean, look at A New Hope. Made on an absolute shoestring by comparison, but you'd never really notice it because every penny was spent wisely.
I fear cheap CGI has had an effect on effective story telling - look at the examples in this thread of what's held in high regard. Apart from the requisite sets, none of them are exactly high budget or effects heavy, and how few of the same examples are particularly modern.
One of my favourite SciFi thrillers is that writ large -the superlative Cube. I won't say too much in case people want to check it out, but it's a masterclass in doing lots with nothing. Same with Aliens - where I feel they really worked with what they had - using a dark, drab palette, lots of shadow meant we barely saw the actual Xenomorphs, which in turn meant less money had to be spent making them particularly convincing in every shot - allowing the budget to expended only when it absolutely had to be. Compare that the inferior (but still fun) Alien Ressurection - more is less, most definitely. Whilst the swimming Aliens was a cool concept, the CGI just didn't hold up, we saw far, far too much, lessening their threat.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/09 12:12:18
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Does anyone else feel that when the effects are dodgy, and the budget is scant, you actually get a more thought provoking SciFi experience?
It depends. If they simply don't bother with the expensive effects then yes. However, if they try to extend the budget too far and do something laughable then it's often distracting.
It's not sci fi, but a good example is Jaws. The animatronic shark didn't work, so they re-wrote the film to keep the shark from view until the climax. If they'd just gone ahead with something cheap and rubbery, it wouldn't have worked.
Or just skip the VFX budget and do it on the radio - it worked fine for The Hitch-Hiker's Guide To The Galaxy and Earthsearch, after all. And plenty others I'm missing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pacific wrote: - Rutger Hauer's (Roy Batty) final speech at the end of Blade Runner. Or actually the start of that film, where you see the city-scape with the Vangelis music in the background.
Inspired by driving up the A1 at night, past Teesside steelworks, apparently.
The opening sequence of Independence Day, as the ships slide into view out of the red-hot clouds, is another.
And the Strangers re-arranging the City in Dark City.
The opening biker gang fight in Akira; the high-tech scyscrapers, biker gangs and litter-strewn alleys and that Japanese percussion music.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/09 21:10:53
If we expand the topic to include written works, Heinlein's All You Zombies has to be up there as well.
I'm sure there's other awesome works as well, but I need to board my flight, so will cone back later
The opening sequence of Independence Day, as the ships slide into view out of the red-hot clouds, is another.
And the Strangers re-arranging the City in Dark City.
The opening biker gang fight in Akira; the high-tech scyscrapers, biker gangs and litter-strewn alleys and that Japanese percussion music.
Ohhh good calls.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
AndrewGPaul wrote: but I like the scene where Londo is finally in charge on Centauri Prime and has Mr Morden brought before him and orders the Shadows off the planet; "what're you going to do, Mollari, huh? Blow up the island?" "Actually, ... now that you mention it ..."
This scene is exactly what I though of too...
and there is this scene from Babylon 5 where the Narn homeworld is bombed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCk-12UtYEI. I always think of this scene when I am reading or watching Sci-fi and there is an inter-planetary going on.
In regards to nBSG, I was indifferent after watching the pilot, it was only some years later when a friend said they had been watching it and loved it that I revisited the series. I loved the first 2 seasons and season 3s New Caprica stuff really stood out to me as Sci-Fi at its best.
I hated the episode Razor, but I enjoyed the interactions between the Pegasus and Galactica. The end of nBSG annoyed me though, almost as much as the end of Avatar the last Airbender.
Loved Farscape too, the Scarans were amazing and did not suffer the "problem" that is written into Stargate villans of being scary but dumb enough to be defeated every episode.
Emperor's Eagles (undergoing Chapter reorganization)
Caledonian 95th (undergoing regimental reorganization)
Thousands Sons (undergoing Warband re--- wait, are any of my 40K armies playable?) 
.
6000 pts - Harlies: 1000 pts - 
4000 pts - 
1000 pts - 
1000 pts 
