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That's like me using a protractor to measure my Scouts' signs to make sure they are exactly 90°. (Which I have done, but not relevant). Completely inefficient and useless. I know a flat die when I see one.

Really, no need to suggest such absurd things to a reasonable suggestion. Just imagine it. You drop a die in your bedroom and suddenly there's a goddamn flying bird of prey in your room. Imagine how difficult it would be to disentangle that clusterfeth.

The standard measure of whether a die is cocked or not (if you're not certain) is whether another die of the same manufacture laid on top of it slides off, at least where I've played.

That said the polite thing to do when playing is to ask to check if a die is cocked immediately after rolling it rather than waiting to resolve the rest of the attack and do an extra rules lookup before asking to backtrack.

So I'm going to say both players in this story were sort of being the butt. The OP could have been more careful, the other guy could have dealt with it more maturely. Lessons to be learned on both sides.

If your opponent did not call it a cocked die then its on him. That's not to say don't be honest but some times people don't pay 100% attention and it should be up to your opponent to keep things consistent. Just like you called out him on the number of wounds. As I said that does not mean cheat but how can he be salty that its cocked but he him self did not call it out right away? If he did not call it out right there was it really a cocked die? That there makes him just as "guilty" for the mistake.

Reroll anything that could possibly be ambiguous. No matter what.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Hey, he's the one who said "perfectly flat". I think it's stupid beyond belief, which is why I made such a dumbass comment.

Oh FFS, do we really need to nitpick whether "perfectly flat" needs to be measured to see if the die is 0.000000000000000000000001 degree off from level? The obvious meaning there is that the die has to be lying flat on the table, not slanted at all by sitting on anything. If it's slanted by 5* because it's resting on the edge of a piece of cardboard then it isn't flat. Nobody has any problem dealing with this rule in X-Wing, so let's not act like it's something unreasonable to do in 40k.

I've always used the "balance a die" rule for determining if it's cocked, although actually doing it is very rare. In general we just go off of "does this looked cocked or not", 99% of the time it's obvious, the only time we actually test to see if something is counted is if it's a genuinely important roll (not for something stupid like if a one lasgun out of 50 hits or not). It also depends a lot on what table we're on, as some have very few large flat areas to roll on, and the spots it does have often have models on them. But as everyone else has said, consistency.

I think you both were a bit at fault, as you should have rerolled or at least done a balance test on a die that you describe as "a bit less crooked" than a die you rerolled, although he should have pointed it out as well.

The problem is that none of us were there, so we don't know the tone of the whole interaction. He might have tried to say something but you made him uncomfortable about it, and when you kept asking if he wanted you to reroll it he took it as taunting him about it. Or he could have just been a sore loser that was upset you called him out on the 3 wound thing. None of us know.

If ever cocked-or-not can be ambigious I always just ask 'cocked?' or similar.
If you felt it was non-ambigious, it was up to your opponent to call it out, asking is merely an additional courtesy.
Once your opponent allowed you to roll the follow-updice to that he had accepted the result. It's really easy just to say 'mmm, I reckon that was cocked' obviously you would need to be consistent in that, much nicer to call it immediately when the dice can still be checked (I use the balanced dice method, but hardly needed to)
Before I even look at results I look for cocks or any thing else.
You're opponent is the butt for saying it's fine and getting pissy.

To echo others - consistency. If one is called because crevice, all others should be too.

But equally, he tried to pull a fast one claiming the character had a wound remaining.

Easy resolution here? You didn't wound, he's still on one wound. Crack on.

Vilehydra wrote:
I have two dice rules,

1- dropped dice never count.

2- if it's not flat, it's cocked.

I just don't like the ambiguity. And in most tables I play on there is enough space for good flat rolls.

This!

My rule - which I explain to all opponents before we start - is that if the dice is not flat on the table then its cocked and needs to be rerolled.

Never had anyone say no to that

 kingbobbito wrote:
I've always used the "balance a die" rule for determining if it's cocked, although actually doing it is very rare.

I figure if a die is off enough to get to that point, might as well reroll it, although if there's anything ambiguous about it, I ask my oppenent, 'okay or reroll?'

It would be a pretty rare occurrence where the lay is ambiguous enough, and the roll important enough, that you'd want to go for the balance test to figure it out.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But equally, he tried to pull a fast one claiming the character had a wound remaining.

Easy resolution here? You didn't wound, he's still on one wound. Crack on.

You cut a lot of babies in half, don't you.

____

 Verviedi wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I would also like to request that if Peregrine wants that rule to stand of "perfectly flat", he should fly to every game ever played with dice and place a leveling tool over each one to guarantee it's 100% flat every time, or reroll it!! That should solve all problems.

Hop to it, or realize that's ridiculous and will never work.
Bob's solution is far better.
Perfectly flat indeed...

For feth's sake, perfectly-level-flat is not what he meant and you know it.

Well, let's see what he wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
a die must be re-rolled if it is not perfectly flat on the table. That way there's no ambiguity at all about whether you keep a result, and no room for selective re-rolling..

I think "perfectly flat" for "no ambiguity at all" is pretty clearly what he meant.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
You get the blame for accepting the cocked result in your favor. It's possible that the die was genuinely less cocked and pretty clearly a 6, but it's very easy for something like that to feel like you're more willing to accept results that are in your favor and re-roll the ones that aren't. X-Wing has the right rule for this: a die must be re-rolled if it is not perfectly flat on the table. That way there's no ambiguity at all about whether you keep a result, and no room for selective re-rolling.

Your opponent gets the blame for ragequitting when they didn't get the result they wanted. Whatever the policy is on cocked dice your opponent accepted the 6 as a legitimate result, and that's the end of it. They don't get to go back and complain about it when it turns out to kill their model instead of leaving it at one wound.

This seems pretty fair. Follow-up question: should I have done anything different, after calling the die a 6?

Put another die on top of the six to prove or discount your point.

Personally I always use a container to load with dice. Find out how many dice you can put in with minimal cocked results and make it part of your gear. Bigger dice is a good idea too. I find myself using a combination of 15mm and 20mm.

Never ever heard about any ambiguity about a dice being "perfectly flat". If people do want to take that sentiment literally, just bring a tray with you to roll your dice on.

Curved edges stop cocked dice too


To answer the OP's question - as said before, your opponent agreed to the dice being a 6. He can't be pissed off at you for an action that he agreed to. End of story.

I think that a safe way to tell if a dice is cocked is to put another dice on top of it. If it stays on then it's good, if not then reroll. And make sure to check that system with your opponent at the beginning.

You should've rerolled the die, he shouldn't sulk. You've moved past your mistake, he continues his.

 slip wrote:
You should've rerolled the die, he shouldn't sulk. You've moved past your mistake, he continues his.

The OP offered a re-roll, and his opponent refused. He can't take fault for his opponent agreeing to accept the roll.

 JNAProductions wrote:
So, story time! I was playing in a three way game, when a couple of things happened in the first five minutes.

1) A die landed in a crevice, and I called it cocked.

2) A second die landed in a similar crevice, though a bit less crooked, and I didn't call it cocked. This die was a 6 to wound on a Sniper weapon.

So you called it cocked when it wasn't in your favor, but didn't call it cocked when it was in your favor.

Is that essentially what happened?

If you're going to be the cocked-police, then call it whenever the die doesn't land exactly flat on the table. Otherwise...

 Traditio wrote:
So you called it cocked when it wasn't in your favor, but didn't call it cocked when it was in your favor.

Is that essentially what happened?

If you're going to be the cocked-police, then call it whenever the die doesn't land exactly flat on the table. Otherwise...

He offered to re-roll the dice after accepting that it might be cocked, and his opponent refused. And the dice was definitely cocked in the first instance, while the second one was ambiguous at best.

General Annoyance wrote:

He offered to re-roll the dice after accepting that it might be cocked, and his opponent refused. And the dice was definitely cocked in the first instance, while the second one was ambiguous at best.

He offered after the fact.

I'm sure he jumped all over the first "cocked" instance. But when it was "ambiguous at best," and the result JUST SO HAPPENED to be strongly in his favor, I mean...it's not SO obviously cocked in that instance, right?

Spare me.

 Traditio wrote:


He offered after the fact.

I'm sure he jumped all over the first "cocked" instance. But when it was "ambiguous at best," and the result JUST SO HAPPENED to be strongly in his favor, I mean...it's not SO obviously cocked in that instance, right?

Spare me.

Yes, because accusing the OP of manipulating the game deliberately in his favour is a logical idea. That's why he offered a re-roll, right?

So what if it's after the fact, too? It clearly wasn't far enough into the game for the re-roll to not make a difference, be it to save the Dark Apostle or not.

 General Annoyance wrote:

 slip wrote:
You should've rerolled the die, he shouldn't sulk. You've moved past your mistake, he continues his.

The OP offered a re-roll, and his opponent refused. He can't take fault for his opponent agreeing to accept the roll.

I think his opponent is slightly more anti social, and less likely to establish a claim of a dice looking cocked for fear of looking silly or being TFG. He possibly interpreted the OP as being an impartial judge once he began calling cocked die, while the OP felt it should be an everyone police everyone sort of deal. I've seen it done both ways. Offering to reroll the die after the fact instead of just rerolling it kinda makes it seem like he's being portrayed as making a bigger deal of it than it really was.

I mean OP offered to reroll the die, but he put his opponent on the spot to make the call and he didn't feel comfortable. After all, if rerolling it isn't a big deal, why didn't it end up just being rerolled? I mean if the OP offered, than he knew it wasn't totally on the level, but he was kinda hoping his opponent would let it go, because it was a good roll. I don't think anyone really wronged anyone, it's just perceptions.

Buddy should be more social. OP should just do instead of say. Nobody is a bad guy here, just misunderstood. I mean sure, people could just say how they feel, but who really does that?

We play a case of call or miss as friends.

If either player thinks the dice (Regardless of who rolled it) is cocked, they must challenge it before anything further is calculated and come to an agreement, if there is no agreement, then a third party has final say.
If there is no third party available, roll a d6 and one player chooses high and the other low. winner applies their result. just don't cock this dice...

I really don't consider a die cocked unless it's like 30+ degrees. If it's only like 10 or 20 degrees, I don't count it as cocked. Seems that most people at the shop where I play are the same way. More or less, my rule of thumb, if it's obvious which side is actually supposed to be up... it's not cocked. If it's leaning enough to not be able to truly tell which side is up, it's cocked.

SG

I run into this a lot in other games where the board is smaller.

There is one player, Jeff, who is very competitive and strict with the rules.

There is another player, Donnie, who is more there to have fun.

When a game is going on, and a dice doesn't land perfectly 100% flat, Jeff will challenge and complain it if doesn't benefit him. Donnie gets upset because this frequently happens to him, as he's not super involved in the minutia, and rolls his dice rather carelessly; he feels targeted by Jeff, and his feelings get hurt.

Jeff will roll dice and sometimes they will be cocked. If they come up in his favor, he will make comments like, "I am keeping the results here, because YOU won't reroll." And even if it is visibly cocked, I feel as a rational third party I will lend my advice, and say "that dice could have come up with a different result," or "that dice wasn't going to change realistically." But those kinds of decisions never satisfy Jeff.

There's two sides to this coin.

On the one hand, Donnie does sometimes reroll results that don't benefit him. He's largely inconsistent. But, he never wins, because he's just there to play and typically doesn't care a whole lot. It's easy to forgive Donnie.

On the other hand, Jeff knows the rules. And, his critical and assertive stance towards gaming don't end with dice rolls. He is also inconsistent with his dice, in an exactly similar fashion to Donnie, but he uses Donnie as an excuse to get away with it. Jeff feels like a jerk in these scenarios.

If you have an inconsistent stance towards dice rolling and you're a Donnie, then you're ok in my book. If you are a Jeff, then that's a problem.

For what it's worth, Miniwargaming batreps have really funky boards that produce a lot of cocked dice, and yet they're able to judge easily what is cocked and what's not. It's only a big deal to hyper competitive folks who want to alter obvious scenarios to benefit them. A rational person can easily see if a dice is cocked or not.

That's a good post.

Context matters a lot if things will be seen as honest mistakes or playing "above the table" for advantage.

I use a little box with flat surface and we all roll our dices there.

0 problems.

I advise the OP to do something like this. Really. 0 problems. Zero. No one!

I think that, if I were to allocate blame here, it'd be 20% you, 80% him. You should've called a reroll, and it looks sketchy because it was such an impactful roll. But he compounded his problem massively by sulking...and honestly will probably hold it against you because it looked sketchy.

I think that, if it comes up again, just be upfront and proactive - set an expectation before the game about docked dice and rerolling. By doing this, you'll show other people that you're on the up-and-up and avoid the issue again.

 slip wrote:
I think his opponent is slightly more anti social, and less likely to establish a claim of a dice looking cocked for fear of looking silly or being TFG. He possibly interpreted the OP as being an impartial judge once he began calling cocked die, while the OP felt it should be an everyone police everyone sort of deal. I've seen it done both ways. Offering to reroll the die after the fact instead of just rerolling it kinda makes it seem like he's being portrayed as making a bigger deal of it than it really was.

I mean OP offered to reroll the die, but he put his opponent on the spot to make the call and he didn't feel comfortable. After all, if rerolling it isn't a big deal, why didn't it end up just being rerolled? I mean if the OP offered, than he knew it wasn't totally on the level, but he was kinda hoping his opponent would let it go, because it was a good roll. I don't think anyone really wronged anyone, it's just perceptions.

Buddy should be more social. OP should just do instead of say. Nobody is a bad guy here, just misunderstood. I mean sure, people could just say how they feel, but who really does that?

I see your point here. However, regarding the idea that the OP "should just do instead of say" - that's difficult if you're unsure on whether the dice is cocked or not. Usually I would just trust my opponent to make the call with a simple "you think that's cocked?" and go with whatever they say. That would only be if I can't put another dice on top though.

It seems a little silly that someone would be worried that that would make them look like TFG, and not speaking up. TT wargaming is naturally a social event - you've got to give people feedback on what's going on if things aren't crystal clear (i.e. you rolled on something crooked, or even if you're making a move that looks a little confusing).

Unfortunately 40k seems to bring out the worst in some players and so I would always recommend using a dice try, and reroll anything that hasn't landed flat (can sometimes happen even in a dice tray)
Personally I couldn't care less but having a rule or standard method removes the ambiguity for those that do.

Stepping back from the situation- in all likelihood, the person you were playing was having a bad day. It happens.

Life, school, work, wives, bills, cars, friends, and everything else could have played a role in this rules dispute.

Honest enough to say I've lost my temper at the gaming table too many times to remember over things that seem trivial in retrospect. We all do it, don't feel like someone has to be at fault. It's just the way we all are sometimes.