Space Marines are they top tier?

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**davou**

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Seriousely, this is your third thread with basically the same question.

this thread has been locked
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/754024.page

and after ERJAK gave you a long answer in this thread you didn't reply anymore.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/753839.page

So now you got the impression Ultramarines might be what you're searching for. Let me just say it doesn't matter what's "the meta" or if ultramarines are "competitive" right now. The only thing that mattes is which models/ fluff do you like. The meta will change every few months, but your models and army will stay. And if you only bought your army because it was the flavor of the month you'll be disappointed with this hobby soon.

Yes, this is the fifth thread you've created for this crap. I hope you get banned.

**Jaxler**

Marmatag wrote:
Threads created by this guy, over the past like 6 months:

Space Marines are they top tier? - This thread, 2018

Will New necrons tier 1? and if so what build? - 2018
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/754007.page

Still having trouble finding a High teir army to play!! - 2018
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/754024.page

Is there a Teir/meta for warhammer 40k? - 2018
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/753839.page

Warhammer 40k tier list for comps. - 2017
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/740846.page

Getting back into the game (Need Help with what army to buy) - 2017
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/737861.page

Getting back into the game - 2017
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/734129.page

New 40k meta. - 2017
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/733957.page

Warhammer 40k Meta/ Tier list - 2017
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/730241.page

Can you guys just stop beating around the bush and give him the correct answer?
Seriously, every thread is derailed by nonsense.

Scerri101 - the answer you're looking for is Grey Knights.
Here is *the best* army in 40k right now:

Detachment #1: Patrol
Castellan Crowe
Grey Knights Terminator Squad with Force Staves, Heavy Psycannon
Grey Knights Terminator Squad with Force Staves, Heavy Psycannon
Grey Knights Terminator Squad with Force Staves, Heavy Psycannon

Detachment #2: Flyer Wing
Stormtalon Gunship
Stormtalon Gunship
Stormtalon Gunship

Detachment #3: Supreme Command Detachment
Grey Knights Librarian
Grey Knights Librarian
Grey Knights Librarian
Grey Knights Librarian

This list is just an unstoppable juggernaut, and has the last 5 major independent circuits. These guys don't want another copy of this list running around as it is unbeatable.

By focusing on the Patrol and the Flyer Wing you are much faster than others, and coupled with nearly every model casting the most powerful spell in the game (smite) and getting a flat+1 to cast it across the army, you will dominate the psychic phase. Librarians are great psykers, and Grey Knights are the best Psykers in the game. If you can find the points you can put stormshields + warding staves on your librarians for a 2++ invulnerable save (wow). Grey Knights terminators are flatly superior to other terminators, because they have storm bolters and the ability to take warding staves, which boost their invulnerable save even further. Castellan Crow can have up to 10 attacks in melee.

The inquisition is better.

**Primark G**

He is an accomplished troll for sure.

**techsoldaten**

Does this user's propensity to discuss the same topic really deserve such vitrol?

It's not like anyone on Dakka religiously stays on topic. The responses in each thread are many and varied. And it's not like he's the only person who has ever asked the same question more than once.

I think we all recognize the poor user's inability to come up with more original questions. That doesn't mean he needs to be treated like a leper. Clearly, he wants to contribute and is learning how.

Perhaps we could focus our energies on helping him come up with more original topics to post. For example:

- Space Marines - why aren't they top tier?

- Chaos Space Marines - how top tier are they REALLY?

- Dark Angels / Blood Angels - why are they not top tier?

- Death Guard / Thousand Sons - does having a Primarch make you top tier?

- Ad Mech - will Armigers make them top tier?

- Orks - how bottom tier will they remain after the new Codex hits?

- Eldar - do tiers apply to an army this good?

- Custodes - all shield captain list - top tier or not?

- Tau - can a shooty army really be considered top tier?

- Genestealer Cults - do weighted dice make them top tier?

**Primark G**

Wow your questions are so leading and biased. Lol.

**davou**

techsoldaten wrote:
Does this user's propensity to discuss the same topic really deserve such vitrol?

It does, because he ignores the advice he's given and drops the prior conversations.

**Marmatag**

techsoldaten wrote:
Does this user's propensity to discuss the same topic really deserve such vitrol?

It's a combination of a few things:

1. Asking the same question over and over, and not participating in any discussion whatsoever after asking.

2. There is nothing substantial in the original post, any discussion becomes an argument of the usual cast of characters, and these "who is better" or "who is worse" discussions aren't even remotely productive anyway.

3. I think it rubs a few people the wrong way that he's effectively coming here and asking: "How do i cheese my way to the top?"

He's looking for an answer like: "Leverage Ynnari Reapers +SFD and also have reapers in a bastion. Use rangers to block DS and alpha, wave serpents where possible to protect reapers, and Sam Hein Shining Spears. Here's a link to a shopping cart i've pre-filled for you at GW webstore, click buy and you'll start winning tournaments."

If it was a 1-off it'd be fine but seeing the same thing over and over? Come on

**fraser1191**

Marmatag wrote:

3. I think it rubs a few people the wrong way that he's effectively coming here and asking: "How do i cheese my way to the top?"

I agree it is pretty off putting to see. I didn't choose any of my armies on the basis that they were number one, but I know there are people that chase the meta and want an easy win for that small dopamine release and to that I say "meh, if I don't like my models then why bother?"

**Blackie**

They have been top tiers for the first months of the game. Now they're good but not overpowered. They can still be amazing with allies since soups are legal and apparently people like them.

BA and DA are quite close to the top tier lists.

SM just suffer in a very competitive meta since the best lists of the moment are hard counters for them, but that's it. They do fine in any realistic meta in which 7 flyrants or 30 dark reapers don't exist.

**BrianDavion**

I wonder if maybe the guy's actually more clever then he lets on and is actually satireing the tendancy of every second thread on these forms to devolve into a "OMG IT'S THE BEST FOR THE META OR IT'S CRAP" discussion

**Crazyterran**

You'd probably be best getting Eldar if you wanted to be safe. There always seems to be one Craftworlds list that is on top or near the top.

**Elemental**

davou wrote:
techsoldaten wrote:
Does this user's propensity to discuss the same topic really deserve such vitrol?

It does, because he ignores the advice he's given and drops the prior conversations.

A Dakka poster ignoring evidence that contradicts their views and making the same post over and over across multiple threads without ever getting tired of repeating themselves? Unheard of.

**lolman1c**

I play Imperial Fists! I don't win a lot. :(

**Sim-Life**

lolman1c wrote:
I play Imperial Fists! I don't win a lot. :(

You win the moral victory. Which is the most important one.

**stonehorse**

Maybe I am an old grognard, but shouldn't the focus be on having fun, and using a collection of models that you like? The ultra competitive sphere that is influencing the game's progression is a bit worrying. The focus seems to be no more about building a story with personal characters and such, now it seems to be more about 'how can I curb stomp my opponents within 3 turns?'

Sorry to say, but this attitude is poison to the concept of the social contract miniature games are based upon.

**techsoldaten**

BrianDavion wrote:
I wonder if maybe the guy's actually more clever then he lets on and is actually satireing the tendancy of every second thread on these forms to devolve into a "OMG IT'S THE BEST FOR THE META OR IT'S CRAP" discussion

The thought crossed my mind. Dakka's has an obsession with organizing Codexes into tiers, any one of a number of other threads would give him answers to the topic.

His posts certainly seem to upset a lot of people.

**lolman1c**

stonehorse wrote:
Maybe I am an old grognard, but shouldn't the focus be on having fun, and using a collection of models that you like? The ultra competitive sphere that is influencing the game's progression is a bit worrying. The focus seems to be no more about building a story with personal characters and such, now it seems to be more about 'how can I curb stomp my opponents within 3 turns?'

Sorry to say, but this attitude is poison to the concept of the social contract miniature games are based upon.

I tried saying this once but I just get told I'm not allowed to tell people how to have fun. Even if it ruined my fun.

**Rocmistro**

techsoldaten wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I wonder if maybe the guy's actually more clever then he lets on and is actually satireing the tendancy of every second thread on these forms to devolve into a "OMG IT'S THE BEST FOR THE META OR IT'S CRAP" discussion

The thought crossed my mind. Dakka's has an obsession with organizing Codexes into tiers, any one of a number of other threads would give him answers to the topic.

His posts certainly seem to upset a lot of people.

But the reason for identifying a "Codex Tier" isn't necessarily in order to POWER GAME TO THE TOP!!!

It's not why I'm interested in the subject.

For me, it's about setting expectations. If I'm considering getting into a new army, I want to have a basic understanding of how well it will perform. If I'm buying a bottom-tier army, and I go into that knowing what it is, I'm ok with losing all the time. But I want to know what I'm getting into and have my expectations appropriately set. Conversely, if I get into a powerful army, I want to be prepared for people getting frustrated playing against it.

**Leo_the_Rat**

Has anyone noticed the OP's deafening silence?

**techsoldaten**

Rocmistro wrote:
techsoldaten wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I wonder if maybe the guy's actually more clever then he lets on and is actually satireing the tendancy of every second thread on these forms to devolve into a "OMG IT'S THE BEST FOR THE META OR IT'S CRAP" discussion

The thought crossed my mind. Dakka's has an obsession with organizing Codexes into tiers, any one of a number of other threads would give him answers to the topic.

His posts certainly seem to upset a lot of people.

But the reason for identifying a "Codex Tier" isn't necessarily in order to POWER GAME TO THE TOP!!!

It's not why I'm interested in the subject.

For me, it's about setting expectations. If I'm considering getting into a new army, I want to have a basic understanding of how well it will perform. If I'm buying a bottom-tier army, and I go into that knowing what it is, I'm ok with losing all the time. But I want to know what I'm getting into and have my expectations appropriately set. Conversely, if I get into a powerful army, I want to be prepared for people getting frustrated playing against it.

Yes, but, do you think the OP is actually interested in the subject, or is he making fun of people who are?

**Marmatag**

techsoldaten wrote:
Rocmistro wrote:
techsoldaten wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I wonder if maybe the guy's actually more clever then he lets on and is actually satireing the tendancy of every second thread on these forms to devolve into a "OMG IT'S THE BEST FOR THE META OR IT'S CRAP" discussion

The thought crossed my mind. Dakka's has an obsession with organizing Codexes into tiers, any one of a number of other threads would give him answers to the topic.

His posts certainly seem to upset a lot of people.

But the reason for identifying a "Codex Tier" isn't necessarily in order to POWER GAME TO THE TOP!!!

It's not why I'm interested in the subject.

For me, it's about setting expectations. If I'm considering getting into a new army, I want to have a basic understanding of how well it will perform. If I'm buying a bottom-tier army, and I go into that knowing what it is, I'm ok with losing all the time. But I want to know what I'm getting into and have my expectations appropriately set. Conversely, if I get into a powerful army, I want to be prepared for people getting frustrated playing against it.

Yes, but, do you think the OP is actually interested in the subject, or is he making fun of people who are?

If he's creating threads to mock the forum & troll the users, pretty sure that's against the rules.

To be 100% honest if he was interested in the subject, I think he'd do a modicum of research and stalk the tactics threads.

**davou**

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Has anyone noticed the OP's deafening silence?

He's going to wait to post a new thread tomorrow.

**Scott-S6**

Crazyterran wrote:
You'd probably be best getting Eldar if you wanted to be safe. There always seems to be one Craftworlds list that is on top or near the top.

Eldar certainly are the most consistently good army in the game.

**momerathe**

stonehorse wrote:
Maybe I am an old grognard, but shouldn't the focus be on having fun, and using a collection of models that you like? The ultra competitive sphere that is influencing the game's progression is a bit worrying. The focus seems to be no more about building a story with personal characters and such, now it seems to be more about 'how can I curb stomp my opponents within 3 turns?'

Sorry to say, but this attitude is poison to the concept of the social contract miniature games are based upon.

There are many different playstyles to any game; each with their own social contracts. I sympathise, but you don't have a monopoly on the "right" way to play.

It's like.. going into a pick-up game of D&D and expecting some light heroic fantasy, and discovering that you've signed up for fantasy Vietnam. It's not my idea of fun, but some people love it so who am I to say they're wrong? The important thing is that everyone's expectations are clear beforehand.

**ERJAK**

Martel732 wrote:
They aren't. They try to trot out Bobby G and castle up, but they are getting laughed off the table atm.

Marines aren't worth 13 ppm.
Primaris aren't worth 18 ppm.
Marine vehicles are all very fragile for their points except Rhinos.

All problems stem from these things.

If you're taking any of those things in your list (except bobby g) then I think the problem stems right around there.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

stonehorse wrote:
Maybe I am an old grognard, but shouldn't the focus be on having fun, and using a collection of models that you like? The ultra competitive sphere that is influencing the game's progression is a bit worrying. The focus seems to be no more about building a story with personal characters and such, now it seems to be more about 'how can I curb stomp my opponents within 3 turns?'

Sorry to say, but this attitude is poison to the concept of the social contract miniature games are based upon.

Nothing tells a story better than dice.

**Blackie**

ERJAK wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
They aren't. They try to trot out Bobby G and castle up, but they are getting laughed off the table atm.

Marines aren't worth 13 ppm.
Primaris aren't worth 18 ppm.
Marine vehicles are all very fragile for their points except Rhinos.

All problems stem from these things.

If you're taking any of those things in your list (except bobby g) then I think the problem stems right around there.

Many tournaments were won using lists that included tac marines, guilliman and tanks. Now the same lists are not top tiers anymore but not garbage either. And they're easier to field since they're basically filled up with basic SM stuff, things like 7 hive tyrants or 30 dark reapers are not that common outside tournaments. And outside tournaments ultramarines and ravenguard are still more than decent even without souping.

**wuestenfux**

You have asked for pure vanilla Space Marines.
I'd consider a soup list together with AM.

**Ecclesiarch 616**

SMs have never been top but are very forgiving for newer players. I prefer a fluffy army myself which shows in my builds, I do tend to win much more than I loose. My suggestion is to buy an army you like the look of and the background. After all you will spend so much time painting.