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I play BA and have never lost a game to a list using hellblasters, and i have seen them FREQUENTLY. That's not looking good for hellblasters. Conversely, I have never beaten dark reapers.
Vanilla Marines are pretty awful and rely on Special Characters or Roboute to get anything remotely done.
Dark Angels and Blood Angels have more inspiration to them and while they overall have the same problem units (no Tactical Marines aren't good and Terminators still need tweaking), they have more focused Codices that allow you to build towards what the overall stereotypes of the chapters are.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
I run Ultramarines with a Culexus and AC Vanguard detachment - I have really been doing well. Ultramarines are there for objective camping and red hot smoking plasma - AC do the heavy lifting. I was running just SM with an assassin before, AC make a big difference. I have never used Rowboat FYI.
They can be good stand alone - you will see common group of posters here that have nothing good to say about SM in general but IMO they are are the top of tier 2... which in mind means they can be competitive. I recently watched a VBR where an Ultramarine player beat Nick Brown the recent LVO champion. I would mostly ignore the negative comments - SM are a lot of fun to play and to me that is the main thing. /thumbsup
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
The general consensus is that they're not top-top tier, but that they're definitely solid contenders.
There are a lot of SM players, though, who feel that they should always be the winner because...I don't know, entitlement? Plot armor? Whatever...who are unhappy with that, though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sim-Life wrote: Stop replying to this guys topics, this is like the 4th "What is the current OP army" thread hes started.
I am aware I replied to his topic in order to tell people to stop replying.
Oops...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/02 18:17:50
Scerri101 wrote: Ahh dam, have no idea what to play nor no one can tell me or give me a straight awnser to what the meta is
Because the meta is entirely based on your area. You'd be better off talking to the guys at your local game shop. It also changes every couple of months.
Instead of trying to buy your way to a victory, try picking and army you think would do good and stick with it. I play a melee army and I love it even though I get outclassed by most other armies. I play tournaments because it's a great experience and a good way to meet people. I don't care if I win or lose. It's a game, have fun with it.
Being the guy that wants to pay for wins is not going to be very good for you in the long run.
I think some of the entitled players miss their free transports and Skyhammer something something... now you have to use actual tactics to win.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
Primark G wrote: I think some of the entitled players miss their free transports and Skyhammer something something... now you have to use actual tactics to win.
BA had neither of those.
I don't tell people to ignore your unrealistically optimistic assessment of marines overall.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/02 18:22:00
Primark G wrote: I think some of the entitled players miss their free transports and Skyhammer something something... now you have to use actual tactics to win.
Have you tried playing a Chapter that doesn't have the biggest crutch in the entire book available to it?
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
They're more of a gatekeeper faction. Ultras aren't going to win any tournaments, but 3 Fire Raptors and Guilliman can easily go X-1 and will absolutely stop other lists from winning tournaments.
So now you got the impression Ultramarines might be what you're searching for. Let me just say it doesn't matter what's "the meta" or if ultramarines are "competitive" right now. The only thing that mattes is which models/ fluff do you like. The meta will change every few months, but your models and army will stay. And if you only bought your army because it was the flavor of the month you'll be disappointed with this hobby soon.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/02 18:27:34
I would just stop trying to play the flavor of the month army and just go with something you like.
Flavor of the month is changing almost literally at a monthly rate. Even the best units within the best faction are changing quickly to match the meta since there are 1-3 codices being dropped a month.
Finally, the difference between Chaos Space Marines, Tyranids, and Imperial Guard are not so huge unless you play at the tippy top of the environment, which if you're a new player... that certainly will not be you.
There actually is not a ton of parity between factions for once, unless you're a Grey Knight player... in which case I would advise you to paint your guys gold and say: "Look at my awesome Custodes army!"
Primark G wrote: I think some of the entitled players miss their free transports and Skyhammer something something... now you have to use actual tactics to win.
Have you tried playing a Chapter that doesn't have the biggest crutch in the entire book available to it?
I have never played Rowboat.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
Purifying Tempest wrote: I would just stop trying to play the flavor of the month army and just go with something you like.
Flavor of the month is changing almost literally at a monthly rate. Even the best units within the best faction are changing quickly to match the meta since there are 1-3 codices being dropped a month.
Finally, the difference between Chaos Space Marines, Tyranids, and Imperial Guard are not so huge unless you play at the tippy top of the environment, which if you're a new player... that certainly will not be you.
There actually is not a ton of parity between factions for once, unless you're a Grey Knight player... in which case I would advise you to paint your guys gold and say: "Look at my awesome Custodes army!"
Good suggestion if you aren't planning to win tournaments. If you are then you better get used to that you HAVE to periodically rebuy your army. Plenty of players do so not doing is handicapping yourself seeing GW keeps deliberately changing things precisely to encourage army repurchases periodically. So if you want to win tournaments you better be ready to keep buying new models to whatever is spam of the month.
Most, of not all space marines pay for stats they won’t use, or for overcosted gear, or simply cost too much.
Look at the lowly chump tac marine. If he was 10 points, he’d still be hard to justify bringing. Look at terminators. If they were 30 points base, they still wouldn’t be worth taking.
Space marines don’t shoot enough and can’t handle being shot at. Elite infantry are just too fragile for the points. This, and most of the tanks they had were nerfed so that Bobby G buffs didn’t make them broken. This means if your not rerolling everything, the tanks are too powerful. Good job GW at making a Codex that is impossible to balance because of a single model doubling the effectiveness of every unit.
Jaxler wrote: Most, of not all space marines pay for stats they won’t use, or for overcosted gear, or simply cost too much.
Look at the lowly chump tac marine. If he was 10 points, he’d still be hard to justify bringing. Look at terminators. If they were 30 points base, they still wouldn’t be worth taking.
Space marines don’t shoot enough and can’t handle being shot at. Elite infantry are just too fragile for the points. This, and most of the tanks they had were nerfed so that Bobby G buffs didn’t make them broken. This means if your not rerolling everything, the tanks are too powerful. Good job GW at making a Codex that is impossible to balance because of a single model doubling the effectiveness of every unit.
8th edition tends to underestimate offense and overrate defense. Is a high save on a few models really more valuable than a ton of wounds / shots on a blob of them?
Most people would say no, which is why we see so many lists featuring cheap, expendable units with lots of bodies. Space Marines don't have enough of them, which is why we also see so much soup.
Are reroll auras really the problem here, or is it that the cost per model skyrockets as the save gets better? For Tacs, I would say it's the later, for tanks, I would say it's the former.
But that's the real problem with Space Marine armies, there's no uniform strategy for how to optimize them. They used to be the ultimate generalist army, now they have too many niches.
Purifying Tempest wrote: I would just stop trying to play the flavor of the month army and just go with something you like.
Flavor of the month is changing almost literally at a monthly rate. Even the best units within the best faction are changing quickly to match the meta since there are 1-3 codices being dropped a month.
Finally, the difference between Chaos Space Marines, Tyranids, and Imperial Guard are not so huge unless you play at the tippy top of the environment, which if you're a new player... that certainly will not be you.
There actually is not a ton of parity between factions for once, unless you're a Grey Knight player... in which case I would advise you to paint your guys gold and say: "Look at my awesome Custodes army!"
Good suggestion if you aren't planning to win tournaments. If you are then you better get used to that you HAVE to periodically rebuy your army. Plenty of players do so not doing is handicapping yourself seeing GW keeps deliberately changing things precisely to encourage army repurchases periodically. So if you want to win tournaments you better be ready to keep buying new models to whatever is spam of the month.
If you're a new player and expecting to jump in and compete in tournaments... then the army selection at this point is even less of a deal than it would be for an experienced player. In the time it takes to purchase, assemble, and learn the game and army... the meta will most likely be shifted and that choice was for nothing.
My point is, as a new player entering the hobby, base this decision on the army that appeals to you now and metachase later. The only caveat to that is that there are generally "safer" options that survive edition changes better than other.
For example: Grey Knights were busted in 5th when their codex dropped, also really good in 6th with Draigostar until codex creep nullified that, but are now in desperate need of a codex rewrite with a codex less than a year old. The nature of their army and composition/size means that edition can have A LOT of effect on them.
While factions like Space Marines are usually safe. The old rumors of GW favoring the smurfs is a thing simply because they seem to do well in any environment. Maybe not the top, but at least they're not in the shape of Grey Knights. They tend to survive edition changes better, and even for awhile in 8th, they were competitive at the higher end.
Now, if we're talking about factions that are consistently bitched about... I would totally advocate for Eldar. I have never heard so much disdain thrown at a faction as I have for being an Eldar player. I may as well play my army from a Cheese Whiz can when I bring Eldar. I think it has something to do with Eldar having a built-in counter for anything, so they can easily shift when the meta shifts to at least not be a basement dweller. But that is my personal opinion.
As for his repeating threads and all... I get it.
When you're looking to drop a few hundred dollars to get into a hobby, and that few hundred dollars is just ENTRY into it... I would want to make the best long-term decision I could. So while maybe repeating threads is a bit of an issue, but asking about how everyone stacks up as a new player entering the hobby... I think it is good to see someone wanting to spend their money in a more educated fashion.
Jaxler wrote: Most, of not all space marines pay for stats they won’t use, or for overcosted gear, or simply cost too much.
Look at the lowly chump tac marine. If he was 10 points, he’d still be hard to justify bringing. Look at terminators. If they were 30 points base, they still wouldn’t be worth taking.
Space marines don’t shoot enough and can’t handle being shot at. Elite infantry are just too fragile for the points. This, and most of the tanks they had were nerfed so that Bobby G buffs didn’t make them broken. This means if your not rerolling everything, the tanks are too powerful. Good job GW at making a Codex that is impossible to balance because of a single model doubling the effectiveness of every unit.
8th edition tends to underestimate offense and overrate defense. Is a high save on a few models really more valuable than a ton of wounds / shots on a blob of them?
Most people would say no, which is why we see so many lists featuring cheap, expendable units with lots of bodies. Space Marines don't have enough of them, which is why we also see so much soup.
Are reroll auras really the problem here, or is it that the cost per model skyrockets as the save gets better? For Tacs, I would say it's the later, for tanks, I would say it's the former.
But that's the real problem with Space Marine armies, there's no uniform strategy for how to optimize them. They used to be the ultimate generalist army, now they have too many niches.
My problem is that buffing marines at all could break the game if Bobby G interacts with the buffed unit. He raises the potential for them to get stupid so high that the overall viability of everything without him has to be middling so that once he’s used everything else’s doesn’t break the game.
This though is 100% made worse by the fact that GW has no idea that survivability is overcosted to the point of being a joke.
It looks like standard Ultramarines probably ought to be the army for you. The past couple days, you've kind of bumbled around the forum trying to pick an army. The last couple threads have vaguely asked for "teirs" of armies and such. It may be better for you to just relearn the game, practice, and have a good time with it. Regular marines are excellent for that. They are the generic benchmark of 40K, and will reintroduce you to the rules and customs of those in your area while providing a fun game for both you and your opponent. In a couple months, after observing other armies, battle reports on youtube, and participating in intelligent discussion here, maybe you can branch out to something specialized. I for example LOVE the T'au Empire. I wouldn't really recommend it for a new or returning player however, as it is expensive monetarily to field a competitive force, and relies on synergies and strong target prioritization and protection to compete with other strong builds. If you are really analytical and mathematical in approach however, they are quite rewarding and I believe would out compete space marines of most flavors. Good luck dude, but maybe chill out on spamming threads for a while? Everyone's starting to think you're trolling them.
-Joe
Can you guys just stop beating around the bush and give him the correct answer? Seriously, every thread is derailed by nonsense.
Scerri101 - the answer you're looking for is Grey Knights. Here is *the best* army in 40k right now:
Detachment #1: Patrol Castellan Crowe Grey Knights Terminator Squad with Force Staves, Heavy Psycannon Grey Knights Terminator Squad with Force Staves, Heavy Psycannon Grey Knights Terminator Squad with Force Staves, Heavy Psycannon
This list is just an unstoppable juggernaut, and has the last 5 major independent circuits. These guys don't want another copy of this list running around as it is unbeatable.
By focusing on the Patrol and the Flyer Wing you are much faster than others, and coupled with nearly every model casting the most powerful spell in the game (smite) and getting a flat+1 to cast it across the army, you will dominate the psychic phase. Librarians are great psykers, and Grey Knights are the best Psykers in the game. If you can find the points you can put stormshields + warding staves on your librarians for a 2++ invulnerable save (wow). Grey Knights terminators are flatly superior to other terminators, because they have storm bolters and the ability to take warding staves, which boost their invulnerable save even further. Castellan Crow can have up to 10 attacks in melee.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/02 19:17:25
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Can you guys just stop beating around the bush and give him the correct answer?
Seriously, every thread is derailed by nonsense.
Scerri101 - the answer you're looking for is Grey Knights. Here is *the best* army in 40k right now:
Detachment #1: Patrol
Castellan Crowe
Grey Knights Terminator Squad with Force Staves, Heavy Psycannon
Grey Knights Terminator Squad with Force Staves, Heavy Psycannon
Grey Knights Terminator Squad with Force Staves, Heavy Psycannon
This list is just an unstoppable juggernaut, and has the last 5 major independent circuits. These guys don't want another copy of this list running around as it is unbeatable.
By focusing on the Patrol and the Flyer Wing you are much faster than others, and coupled with nearly every model casting the most powerful spell in the game (smite) and getting a flat+1 to cast it across the army, you will dominate the psychic phase. Librarians are great psykers, and Grey Knights are the best Psykers in the game. If you can find the points you can put stormshields + warding staves on your librarians for a 2++ invulnerable save (wow). Grey Knights terminators are flatly superior to other terminators, because they have storm bolters and the ability to take warding staves, which boost their invulnerable save even further. Castellan Crow can have up to 10 attacks in melee.
That's honestly: just gold. Destructive advice for sure, but hilarious
As other guys have said, I wouldn't spend too much time trying to chase the meta. Instead, find an army you find compelling, due to its appearance, or it's backstory, or whatever. Collect that. Loving the army for the sake of qualities other than how it performs on the tabletop will hold your interest through collecting, assembling, and painting. And it will sustain you through the ups and downs of the meta.
