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I've yet to see anyone copy GW's plastics in plastic, and I think the cost to manufacture fake plastic minis would outweigh any potential profit.

   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I've yet to see anyone copy GW's plastics in plastic, and I think the cost to manufacture fake plastic minis would outweigh any potential profit.
I have seen videos on youtube showing chinese copys that were almost completely identical, was one of the first results to show up when searching. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtgNFgPQmuM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lPQb7aVdvw
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Eeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwww! You could've said it was a Spikeybits video.

Off to go clean out my eyes.

But as HBMC* said, it's quite possibly just not cost effective for recasters to do so in plastic - even though it's technologically doable.

They first need to sell for less than GW. They also need to make the moulds etc. Then they have to find the market it for it in sufficient numbers to make it profitable.


*sorry for misspelling. Currently in work mode!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/09 11:06:58


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 Stormatious wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I've yet to see anyone copy GW's plastics in plastic, and I think the cost to manufacture fake plastic minis would outweigh any potential profit.
I have seen videos on youtube showing chinese copys that were almost completely identical, was one of the first results to show up when searching. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtgNFgPQmuM
In plastic though?

   
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Near Jupiter.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Stormatious wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I've yet to see anyone copy GW's plastics in plastic, and I think the cost to manufacture fake plastic minis would outweigh any potential profit.
I have seen videos on youtube showing chinese copys that were almost completely identical, was one of the first results to show up when searching. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtgNFgPQmuM
In plastic though?


Thought that was plastic. Im not sure then.

Thanks

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Eeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwww! You could've said it was a Spikeybits video.

Off to go clean out my eyes.

But as HBMC* said, it's quite possibly just not cost effective for recasters to do so in plastic - even though it's technologically doable.

They first need to sell for less than GW. They also need to make the moulds etc. Then they have to find the market it for it in sufficient numbers to make it profitable.


*sorry for misspelling. Currently in work mode!


You would be 100% wrong then. Chinese recasters absolutely do recast in plastic. I have seen it with my own eyes and it is becoming more common. The eye-watering costs that used to be associated with injection moulded plastic have dropped drastically in the last few years, more so in places like China that have extremely low workforce and/or health and safety overheads.

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But enough for GW, already a niche, to prove a profitable rip off?

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But enough for GW, already a niche, to prove a profitable rip off?


They wouldn't be doing it if it weren't profitable, you can be assured of that.

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Dunno about that.

Lots of people have rubbish business ideas.

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Near Jupiter.

I would think, expcially for Forgeworld or very costly models it would be a good thing for buisness to also embed a code some where on the model. I mean its more understandable for the GW models not to be, but for high end models or some thing like forgeworld where models are not prosessed in such large quanitiys like GW, you would think it woould be good for buisness and also not be hard to do or costly if you think about the benefits that could end up being better buisness.

edit - Better buisness because less people will buy the knock offs that aparently are readily and easily avalible and rather want some thing legit and offical from GW.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/09 11:30:39


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Bristol

 Stormatious wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
 Stormatious wrote:
Just because, it would feel nice knowing for e.g, lets say you buy an army off Ebay, it would be nice knowing that what you have IMO is legitimate GW plastic, and not some knock off fake.


I know, right.

Imagine if you paid full price for a model only to find out that it was made out of a crappy, brittle resin that was prone to bubbling and breaking.


Yeah exactly thats a good point too, dont want it to break easily thats for sure.


Vipoid was making a sarcastic, snarky comment about GWs resin products (Finecast).

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 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Stormatious wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
 Stormatious wrote:
Just because, it would feel nice knowing for e.g, lets say you buy an army off Ebay, it would be nice knowing that what you have IMO is legitimate GW plastic, and not some knock off fake.


I know, right.

Imagine if you paid full price for a model only to find out that it was made out of a crappy, brittle resin that was prone to bubbling and breaking.


Yeah exactly thats a good point too, dont want it to break easily thats for sure.


Vipoid was making a sarcastic, snarky comment about GWs resin products (Finecast).


Oh thanks. But that's a good point if talking about plastic. Like imagine if your model was really fragile because over time the crappy plastic started to become gak and broke off and ur model starting breaking apart infront of your eyes.

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Bristol

 Stormatious wrote:
I would think, expcially for Forgeworld or very costly models it would be a good thing for buisness to also embed a code some where on the model. I mean its more understandable for the GW models not to be, but for high end models or some thing like forgeworld where models are not prosessed in such large quanitiys like GW, you would think it woould be good for buisness and also not be hard to do or costly if you think about the benefits that could end up being better buisness.

edit - Better buisness because less people will buy the knock offs that aparently are readily and easily avalible and rather want some thing legit and offical from GW.


How do you propose they do this?

If each model is meant to have a unique code, then you need a unique mould for each model.

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
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I would not want GW to do this. Would it be nice to know that everything I get on ebay is genuine? Sure, but not if it increases the production cost and in all honesty that is much more likely outcome than actually being able to tell apart good recasts from the real deal. It's not worth it to increase the cost of EVERY kit going forward by 5-10 bucks minimum just for "DRM" that probably won't work for more than a few months before someone figures out how to beat it. Especially when you consider that the price will never go back down even if GW abandons the idea altogether.
   
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Near Jupiter.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Stormatious wrote:
I would think, expcially for Forgeworld or very costly models it would be a good thing for buisness to also embed a code some where on the model. I mean its more understandable for the GW models not to be, but for high end models or some thing like forgeworld where models are not prosessed in such large quanitiys like GW, you would think it woould be good for buisness and also not be hard to do or costly if you think about the benefits that could end up being better buisness.

edit - Better buisness because less people will buy the knock offs that aparently are readily and easily avalible and rather want some thing legit and offical from GW.


How do you propose they do this?

If each model is meant to have a unique code, then you need a unique mould for each model.



Cant a computer do a quick microscopic laser imprint as the trays pass by on some sort of conveyor system?, and im talking about doing this after the molding process.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/05/09 11:46:26


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Bristol

 Stormatious wrote:


Cant a computer do a quick microscopic laser imprint as the trays pass by on some sort of conveyor system?, and im talking about doing this after the molding process.


So now GW need a laser? And the imprint will be microscopic, so the customer won't even be able to see it? Yeah that's not going to happen.

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
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Near Jupiter.

What about specialised non mass produced ones from Forge World, wouldn't it be a good way to stop people buying knock offs, and prossibly get more money then it would cost to add that step to the whole manufacturing process.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/05/09 11:46:44


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Bristol

 Stormatious wrote:

If not that, what about specialised non mass produced ones from Forge World, wouldn't it be a good way to stop people buying knock offs, and prossibly get more money then it would cost to add that step to the whole manufacturing process.


I doubt it. These are already selling in limited numbers. Having to generate lots of moulds for this limited sale item is going to cut into your profits.

Also, bear in mind that your whole reason for this is so people can buy GW products elsewhere without having to worry about whether it is genuine. If they want a genuine one, GW wants them to buy it from them.

You are effectively asking for GW to increase their costs for zero benefit for them. Never going to happen.

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in gb
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 Stormatious wrote:
I would think, expcially for Forgeworld or very costly models it would be a good thing for buisness to also embed a code some where on the model. I mean its more understandable for the GW models not to be, but for high end models or some thing like forgeworld where models are not prosessed in such large quanitiys like GW, you would think it woould be good for buisness and also not be hard to do or costly if you think about the benefits that could end up being better buisness.

edit - Better buisness because less people will buy the knock offs that aparently are readily and easily avalible and rather want some thing legit and offical from GW.


You're still not getting it. The number of people accidentally buying recasts is vanishingly small. It's certainly possible to find them if you want (not advocating for this!) but in that case the purchaser has already consciously made the decision to do so, therefore your system doesn't actually prevent that. In what way is adding some sort of authenticity certificate or code to a model good for business? You haven't proven the connection between adding some sort of authentication process and fewer people buying counterfeit models.

To highlight some practical concerns: where will this code be added? If it's not visible on the assembled model what use is it since your proposal is only effective when buying from non-GW sources where many models are bought already assembled? How will it be added? The only way I can think of would be to add it after casting, which would require a completely different process to what they have now, involving changing the manufacturing workflow, possibly buying new machines and adding extra staff. Finally, how do you implement any authentication method that can't be easily copied by the counterfeiters?
   
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Near Jupiter.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Stormatious wrote:

If not that, what about specialised non mass produced ones from Forge World, wouldn't it be a good way to stop people buying knock offs, and prossibly get more money then it would cost to add that step to the whole manufacturing process.


I doubt it. These are already selling in limited numbers. Having to generate lots of moulds for this limited sale item is going to cut into your profits.

Also, bear in mind that your whole reason for this is so people can buy GW products elsewhere without having to worry about whether it is genuine. If they want a genuine one, GW wants them to buy it from them.

You are effectively asking for GW to increase their costs for zero benefit for them. Never going to happen.


I dont know, seems like it might be aextremely common thing with people only buying knock offs and there fore be worth it. But yeah i dont know at all. ( just going by comments on videos related to this topic )

Thank you.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/09 11:49:14


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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I'm still at the "Why would you bother?" part of this conversation.

   
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Near Jupiter.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm still at the "Why would you bother?" part of this conversation.


Because less chance of geting crappy fragile plastic that could ruin your model you buy from ebay . Also the knock offs are very very close to completely identical, the difference is small, but that difference for me is enough for me to not be happy with it not being the exact same as all the orginal non knock off things. And 3rdly it would help GW if people stopped buying knock offs, so looking for a way to have things harder to fake like this would be a great thing i would imagine.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/05/09 11:53:19


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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Stormatious wrote:
Because less chance of geting crappy fragile plastic that could ruin your model you buy from ebay
And how often does that actually happen?

I know the mods hate even mentioning the word, but I have some recast stuff and it's of better quality than anything FW has ever sent me. Friend of mine got some recast BattleTech stuff years ago (he knew it was recast) and it was atrocious quality. He shrugged his shoulders and moved on with his life.

So, again, why even bother?

 Stormatious wrote:
Also the knock offs are very very close to completely identical, the difference is small, but that difference for me is enough for me to not be happy with it not being the exact same as all the orginal non knock off things.
How would you know? Outside of buying a plastic minis and getting a resin re-cast, in which case it's obviously a knock-off, how would you know? And if you didn't know, then what would it matter. And if you knew, why were you buying recasts in the first place?

 Stormatious wrote:
And 3rdly it would help GW if people stopped buying knock offs, so looking for a way to have things harder to fake like this would be a great thing i would imagine.
I have not once fallen for a 'fake' item on eBay when buying what I thought was the genuine article. This is more about being a discerning customer than anything else.

And GW will never stop people from buying recasts. They could certainly reduce the amount of people doing it if they made a few changes to the way they conduct business, but they're never going to stop it.

So, again, why bother?


   
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 Stormatious wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm still at the "Why would you bother?" part of this conversation.


Because less chance of geting crappy fragile plastic that could ruin your model you buy from ebay . Also the knock offs are very very close to completely identical, the difference is small, but that difference for me is enough for me to not be happy with it not being the exact same as all the orginal non knock off things. And 3rdly it would help GW if people stopped buying knock offs, so looking for a way to have things harder to fake like this would be a great thing i would imagine.


Again...your chances of accidentally buying a crappy knock-off are miniscule. It so rarely happens GW's not bothered about potential reputational damage because of it. Your proposal still doesn't seem to have a good way of actually proving authenticity anyway. It seems like you've created a problem in your head that simply doesn't exist, then proposed a really bad solution to said imaginary problem.
   
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Near Jupiter.

Slipspace wrote:
 Stormatious wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm still at the "Why would you bother?" part of this conversation.


Because less chance of geting crappy fragile plastic that could ruin your model you buy from ebay . Also the knock offs are very very close to completely identical, the difference is small, but that difference for me is enough for me to not be happy with it not being the exact same as all the orginal non knock off things. And 3rdly it would help GW if people stopped buying knock offs, so looking for a way to have things harder to fake like this would be a great thing i would imagine.


Again...your chances of accidentally buying a crappy knock-off are miniscule. It so rarely happens GW's not bothered about potential reputational damage because of it. Your proposal still doesn't seem to have a good way of actually proving authenticity anyway. It seems like you've created a problem in your head that simply doesn't exist, then proposed a really bad solution to said imaginary problem.


Yeah, who cares then.

Thank you.


I thought that it would be worthwhile, and if my idea was bad maybe some one could think of a better one or something. But yeah you say its rare etc so who cares forget it.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/05/09 12:20:52


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 Stormatious wrote:
Yeah, who cares then.
Mate, don't get pissy just 'cause people are criticising your idea.

   
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Near Jupiter.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Stormatious wrote:
Yeah, who cares then.
Mate, don't get pissy just 'cause people are criticising your idea.


I mean, if you are right and its not common then who cares.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/05/09 12:28:04


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Pretty sure as this thread goes on the real reason is "I want to be able to gatekeep people's models that I suspect might be recast." Don't buy from Russia/China.There are multiple buyer protections in place on ebay if you get a counterfeit item either way so most of the simple "scratch off a bit of paint to see if its resin or plastic" should be good enough.
   
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Oof. I never agree with Peregrine. And I’m now agreeing with Peregrine. Don’t waste your time on trying to think of ways to make this work. It won’t. Recasters will ALWAYS find a way, and this will add no valuable changes to the customers. If it has any impact, it’ll be a bad one. Best to just be happy with your models and don’t buy GW/FW from China or Russia. And if it bothers you that much, pay the cost of buying in store, from GW themselves, or have an overseas friend buy you the stuff and mail it (I saw the Aussie flag). You have options, but uniquely barcoding every GW model is not one of them.

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 Peregrine wrote:
 Stormatious wrote:
Wouldn't you rather if you were buying a specific model, lets say Magnus the red off ebay, wouldn't you rather know it is legit GW plastic instead of a knock off copy?. I thought most people would feel like i do and rather have it known that it is legit GW plastic.


Why would anyone care, assuming that the plastic is indistinguishable from the legitimate GW kit? How does your knowledge of which molds the plastic came out of change your use of the product? Does it magically increase your painting skill because it is authentic? Does a counterfeit kit roll more 1s when you play a game with it?


If that does bother you, buy your models from the supplier or reputable retailers; same with anything else (jewellery, clothing, fags ...).

Ask anyone who's spent any time in the "oldhammer" groups and you'll hear that it's pretty much impossible to prove if an old metal model is a recast. All the things that are held up as "proof"; double mould lines, miscast slotta tabs, unusual colouration or feel of the metal ... they're all present in miniatures that were bought direct from games Workshop.

This really isn't enough of a concern for GW to bother doing anything about.
   
 
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