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BrianDavion wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

JWBS wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

JWBS wrote:
If they release another plastic Heresy set they'll have to upscale the marines to be proportionate to Primaris. Marinelets won't sell anymore, at least not in numbers.

That, or imagine this - people are fine with the HH marines being the size they are, since they look fine in that game and setting?

Sure some people are. But big marines will clearly have a far wider appeal. Chaos marines are big now. Sisters are big. Loyalist marines are now big. Some people won't mind marinelets, far more people won't have them.

It's all but a guarantee that they will reboot with the new size. People will want to crossplay with their marines. Expect to see Primaris retconned into the HH setting within the next decade.

Are Razorbacks in the Heresy era lists?

As far as I can remember, no.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
It's all but a guarantee that they will reboot with the new size. People will want to crossplay with their marines. Expect to see Primaris retconned into the HH setting within the next decade.

I'd assume the next unannounced book myself.

At this point it's a pretty simple choice, if you want HH to have a future it's going to get dragged in the direction everything else is going. If you want it to stay as is, it'll die. The projects main driver has died, without him the project's direction will change, and when marines are facing such significant changes in 40k, 30k is either catching up or going by the wayside permanently.

Barring someone who really, really likes squatting marines taking over the project and further fragmenting the lines of space marines available to the point of complete irrelevance to 40k at large. And even now I don't see business side of GW letting that go. Not when they could make money selling you an entire new army of slightly larger marines. Heck, primaris are already using the excuse of imitating HH load outs.

Absolutely. I guarantee you that they'll retcon it to include Primaris.

Remember when they said the 40K indexes would be valid "forever?"

*Laughs in Legends*

I would love to see the following from HH team:

-Plastic MKII kit (MKVI, and V are wonderfully designed models yet pretty niche outside of a few legions, I see no issue with them staying resin. MKII is not only a sculpt that hasn't aged well, but an armor mark used by EVERY legion at one point)

-A plastic upgrade kit for MKII/MKIII and MKIV that contains jump packs, power weapons, special weapons, and heavy weapons.

-Re-release of all MKII MKIV and MKIII armor upgrades.

-A new boxset, no extra board game rules, just models and a mini rule book. Something large to split with a friend and have a considerable force. (5 cataphracti, 5 tartaros, 20 MKIII, 20 MKIV, 20 MKII + a few extras maybe?)

-A newly updated Legiones Astartes army list and Legions red books that add everything that is currently not in said books, and whatever is in book 9 and 10. Include FAQed rules etc.

-Get the Lion and Khan made already. Maybe Emps and a corrupted Horus after?

-A red book dedicated to campaigns in the Age of Darkness, no longer should we have to use rules from 5 Black books, get a universal system down and add to it with each respective Black Book.

 Togusa wrote:

JWBS wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

JWBS wrote:
If they release another plastic Heresy set they'll have to upscale the marines to be proportionate to Primaris. Marinelets won't sell anymore, at least not in numbers.

That, or imagine this - people are fine with the HH marines being the size they are, since they look fine in that game and setting?

Sure some people are. But big marines will clearly have a far wider appeal. Chaos marines are big now. Sisters are big. Loyalist marines are now big. Some people won't mind marinelets, far more people won't have them.

It's all but a guarantee that they will reboot with the new size. People will want to crossplay with their marines. Expect to see Primaris retconned into the HH setting within the next decade.

If you want to cross play your marines then get out your old tactical marines. While the Primaris project started during the heresy it was just a theoretical start not enough for a whole table top army of them. As far as size creep aren’t the Mk3s taller than the 4s?

Smaug wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

JWBS wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

JWBS wrote:
If they release another plastic Heresy set they'll have to upscale the marines to be proportionate to Primaris. Marinelets won't sell anymore, at least not in numbers.

That, or imagine this - people are fine with the HH marines being the size they are, since they look fine in that game and setting?

Sure some people are. But big marines will clearly have a far wider appeal. Chaos marines are big now. Sisters are big. Loyalist marines are now big. Some people won't mind marinelets, far more people won't have them.

It's all but a guarantee that they will reboot with the new size. People will want to crossplay with their marines. Expect to see Primaris retconned into the HH setting within the next decade.

If you want to cross play your marines then get out your old tactical marines. While the Primaris project started during the heresy it was just a theoretical start not enough for a whole table top army of them. As far as size creep aren’t the Mk3s taller than the 4s?

Old Tacticals aren't Primaris, and the future is Primaris.

The future is Primaris. But the Heresy isn't the future, it's the past, and GW seem to have finally grasped the idea that not everything they sell has to be 40K-level popular in order to be viable, it just needs to find its audience and remain profitable.

And as much as it might pain some people to acknowledge, the combination of "people who don't like Primaris", "people who don't like 8th", and "people who really like the Heresy fluff" is sufficiently large to sustain the system.

Now, I'd actually quite like it if they used a new Heresy plastic line as an excuse to drop the dumb "Primaris are actually-bigger than Marines" nonsense and just made Primaris-size and proportion models in classic marks of armour, but I very much doubt they'll do that and even a bump up to the modern Chaos Marine size isn't guaranteed. That said if they retcon the setting to include actual-Primaris, I'm out. Immediately. And I very much doubt I'd be alone in that, because I'm into Heresy for the same reason many people are - it's not 40K.

Putting Primaris into Heresy would be almost as dumb as GW retconning the WHF setting so The Old World can have Stormcast in it, it's a complete misunderstanding of the target market - which, just for once, isn't 40K players.

 Thargrim wrote:
I want to see them do mk 2 crusader armor, since that offering no longer exists in resin. And early in the heresy that was the most common armor set, especially on istvaan etc. Mk III is just an up armored version for assaults/boarding actions. Not sure why they decided to do that set instead. If they could work that into a new start collecting box that would be great.

Mk3 is ther Main Armour for Death Guard and Iron Hands in the early M31 Horus Heresy..

Making it so that Primaris were used by the Legions before the Heresy would also invalidate every chronological piece of fluff FW or GW have ever written up until and including the Gathering Storm series.

I really don't see that happening.

 Yodhrin wrote:
The future is Primaris. But the Heresy isn't the future, it's the past, and GW seem to have finally grasped the idea that not everything they sell has to be 40K-level popular in order to be viable, it just needs to find its audience and remain profitable.

And as much as it might pain some people to acknowledge, the combination of "people who don't like Primaris", "people who don't like 8th", and "people who really like the Heresy fluff" is sufficiently large to sustain the system.

Now, I'd actually quite like it if they used a new Heresy plastic line as an excuse to drop the dumb "Primaris are actually-bigger than Marines" nonsense and just made Primaris-size and proportion models in classic marks of armour, but I very much doubt they'll do that and even a bump up to the modern Chaos Marine size isn't guaranteed. That said if they retcon the setting to include actual-Primaris, I'm out. Immediately. And I very much doubt I'd be alone in that, because I'm into Heresy for the same reason many people are - it's not 40K.

Putting Primaris into Heresy would be almost as dumb as GW retconning the WHF setting so The Old World can have Stormcast in it, it's a complete misunderstanding of the target market - which, just for once, isn't 40K players.

Absolutely well said. For myself, I am so happy 30k stayed with 7th. I played 8th up until about 3 months ago when, during my last game, I sat there thinking “I’m just not enjoying this game at all” and have pretty much quit 40k altogether and started focusing on 30k and specialist games exclusively. Sold stacks of unpainted 40k models and will clear out the rest in the coming months. At some point, not sure when, I was no longer the target market for 40k. But these other games produced by GW provide me with what I want in a game so they get to keep my money. I doubt I’m the only one that feels this way.

I would expect once Heresy is done for there to be a few post-Terra books to account for the immediate few thousand years afterwards (so the mop-up, War of the Beast, etc). That will allow them to expand the army lists for that point in history to include more of the regular marine offerings, and give them somewhere to live as 40K gradually squeezes the old marine core line out.

Otherwise, they'll probably go backwards to the Great Crusade. Throw out some Eldar and Ork books, for example. Maybe the Lucian Blacks.

Either way, I expect to see MK II armour on the release list somewhere at some point once things are in full swing,

Plastic Imperial Army would be nice.

BrianDavion wrote:
another plastic heresy box'd be great. those should also sell really well because 40k players will buy it too, calath was an AMAZING deal even if you never played HH

I wonder at that. People didn't buy Betrayal at Calth in such large quantities because it was easy access to 30K, they bought it because it was a lot of Marines for 40K on the cheap. Well, Tacticals aren't getting used in 40K anything like as much as they used to because Primaris for the most part seems to be just better, and if Rise of the Phoenix was anything to go by the era of boxsets offering 50-60% savings on kits is done.

I've thought for a while that the AoD would be a good home for a lot of the non Primaris kits. The mk4 armour in particular is great for mixing parts with the infantry.

 Imateria wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
another plastic heresy box'd be great. those should also sell really well because 40k players will buy it too, calath was an AMAZING deal even if you never played HH

I wonder at that. People didn't buy Betrayal at Calth in such large quantities because it was easy access to 30K, they bought it because it was a lot of Marines for 40K on the cheap. Well, Tacticals aren't getting used in 40K anything like as much as they used to because Primaris for the most part seems to be just better, and if Rise of the Phoenix was anything to go by the era of boxsets offering 50-60% savings on kits is done.

I don't know. I barely ever saw any posts from people buying BaC/BoP for the sake of using the models in 40k, nor have I seen many used in 40k games unless the person - usually Night Lords or Iron Warriors - uses the same models in both systems. Most Marine players never lacked for Tacticals or Commanders anyway. Compare that to 70% of Necromunda Enforcer posts being "I'm going to use them as Primaris Scouts."

 BrookM wrote:
Plastic Imperial Army would be nice.

I don't even care about new models, just a proper imperial army list would be awesome.

The news that the team working on age of darkness will be increased is good to hear. But I'm guessing it will be at least another 18 months before we see any sort of increase in the number of releases we see. A new plastic starter box for AoD is the biggest thing that is needed right now. Basically everyone I know that plays started when the calthclath / prospero boxes were available

 Tamereth wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
Plastic Imperial Army would be nice.

I don't even care about new models, just a proper imperial army list would be awesome.

The news that the team working on age of darkness will be increased is good to hear. But I'm guessing it will be at least another 18 months before we see any sort of increase in the number of releases we see. A new plastic starter box for AoD is the biggest thing that is needed right now. Basically everyone I know that plays started when the calthclath / prospero boxes were available

Isn't the Warp Cults and Militia list meant, or usable for, for the Imperial Army?

It’s interesting how much disagreement there is on what 30k should become. I don’t expect 30k fans will agree with me at all on what follows.

Personally I played a lot of 30k during 7th, because it was so much better as a game. I had a large imperial fist army and was working on raven guard. But since 8th edition I haven’t played at all.

Two things changed. I find 8th a far better game generally than 7th, and I much prefer Primaris models.

As a game I don’t think 30k ever really succeeded at becoming what it was supposed to be. All the stories are about marines fighting each other, often with big units shooting bolters at each other and then brutal close combats between them. But on the table 30k features so many units that are so good at massacring marines that it’s simply not viable to field these big units.

That has been the case since betrayal came out and has only worsened, with the introduction of yet more anti-meq weapons and armies like custodes and admech. The marines that the game ought to be about are victims, not protagonists.

Secondly, 30k had the best marine models until, in my opinion, Primaris came out. Overnight I think the appearance of marines in more or less anatomical proportions made the entire previous marine range look stupid. It’s like seeing a child’s drawing with all the mistakes highlighted. I think the problem is biggest with the old 40k range, especially terminators - which have never been anything like the shape of a human. The Primaris range appears to have at least tried to look right, and the difference is striking.

Mandragola wrote:
It’s interesting how much disagreement there is on what 30k should become. I don’t expect 30k fans will agree with me at all on what follows.

Personally I played a lot of 30k during 7th, because it was so much better as a game. I had a large imperial fist army and was working on raven guard. But since 8th edition I haven’t played at all.

Two things changed. I find 8th a far better game generally than 7th, and I much prefer Primaris models.

As a game I don’t think 30k ever really succeeded at becoming what it was supposed to be. All the stories are about marines fighting each other, often with big units shooting bolters at each other and then brutal close combats between them. But on the table 30k features so many units that are so good at massacring marines that it’s simply not viable to field these big units.

That has been the case since betrayal came out and has only worsened, with the introduction of yet more anti-meq weapons and armies like custodes and admech. The marines that the game ought to be about are victims, not protagonists.

Secondly, 30k had the best marine models until, in my opinion, Primaris came out. Overnight I think the appearance of marines in more or less anatomical proportions made the entire previous marine range look stupid. It’s like seeing a child’s drawing with all the mistakes highlighted. I think the problem is biggest with the old 40k range, especially terminators - which have never been anything like the shape of a human. The Primaris range appears to have at least tried to look right, and the difference is striking.

I certainly don't agree regarding the superiority of 8th - I don't see how it would address your central problem with the existing Heresy rules anyway, since 8th is more killy than previous editions and those core regular Marines would die off even faster unless they rewrote the rules to such an extent you couldn't really call it 8th anymore at all - but I don't think you'll find a huge amount of opposition to your reasoning about Primaris.

People dislike Primaris because of their more tacticool aesthetic, or because they don't like the visual disparity between them and their existing Marine collection when put down side-by-side on the tabletop, or because of their awful fluff and the way their introduction humped aspects of the 40K setting they liked. It's rare, though, that you'll find people who won't acknowledge their proportions look a lot better than the older Marines. In fact another reason some people dislike them is they make it less likely we'll get "fixed" versions of the traditional Marine.

Bigger, better proportioned Marines aren't the problem, the problem is the specific implementation of that concept.

 Togusa wrote:
Remember when they said the 40K indexes would be valid "forever?"

I'm pretty sure that never happened, so no.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yodhrin wrote:

Now, I'd actually quite like it if they used a new Heresy plastic line as an excuse to drop the dumb "Primaris are actually-bigger than Marines" nonsense and just made Primaris-size and proportion models in classic marks of armour,

Hey, we agree on something!

but I very much doubt they'll do that and even a bump up to the modern Chaos Marine size isn't guaranteed.

Not guaranteed, but very likely. The Chaos Marine size is the new 'old marine' size.

 Yodhrin wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
It’s interesting how much disagreement there is on what 30k should become. I don’t expect 30k fans will agree with me at all on what follows.

Personally I played a lot of 30k during 7th, because it was so much better as a game. I had a large imperial fist army and was working on raven guard. But since 8th edition I haven’t played at all.

Two things changed. I find 8th a far better game generally than 7th, and I much prefer Primaris models.

As a game I don’t think 30k ever really succeeded at becoming what it was supposed to be. All the stories are about marines fighting each other, often with big units shooting bolters at each other and then brutal close combats between them. But on the table 30k features so many units that are so good at massacring marines that it’s simply not viable to field these big units.

That has been the case since betrayal came out and has only worsened, with the introduction of yet more anti-meq weapons and armies like custodes and admech. The marines that the game ought to be about are victims, not protagonists.

Secondly, 30k had the best marine models until, in my opinion, Primaris came out. Overnight I think the appearance of marines in more or less anatomical proportions made the entire previous marine range look stupid. It’s like seeing a child’s drawing with all the mistakes highlighted. I think the problem is biggest with the old 40k range, especially terminators - which have never been anything like the shape of a human. The Primaris range appears to have at least tried to look right, and the difference is striking.

I certainly don't agree regarding the superiority of 8th - I don't see how it would address your central problem with the existing Heresy rules anyway, since 8th is more killy than previous editions and those core regular Marines would die off even faster unless they rewrote the rules to such an extent you couldn't really call it 8th anymore at all - but I don't think you'll find a huge amount of opposition to your reasoning about Primaris.

People dislike Primaris because of their more tacticool aesthetic, or because they don't like the visual disparity between them and their existing Marine collection when put down side-by-side on the tabletop, or because of their awful fluff and the way their introduction humped aspects of the 40K setting they liked. It's rare, though, that you'll find people who won't acknowledge their proportions look a lot better than the older Marines. In fact another reason some people dislike them is they make it less likely we'll get "fixed" versions of the traditional Marine.

Bigger, better proportioned Marines aren't the problem, the problem is the specific implementation of that concept.

Well put. We've only recently come to the end of a two year span of people complaining how utterly useless Tactical Marines and Intercessors are. Viability of you core Marines is not a 7th ed or 8th ed problem, it's a problem of GW removing army building restrictions in an effort to let everyone play (and more importantly buy) exactly the models they like regardless of what that does to the appearance of armies and the balance issues that may bring. Furthermore GW has a poor record of making core choices more than a tax to get to the markedly better elite choices even when they had a fairly restrictive FOC in place. Troops becoming a good choice occasionally happens, but more by accident than design.

This isn't going to change because while 40k's roots may be in an adaptation of WW2 by people who grew up with historicals, these days it has transformed into a cinematic experience, and as these things go you can't have the humble, ever present troops do any of the heavy lifting when you're drowning in elites and special forces that try to outdo each other super hero comic style. GW's design paradigm is just not compatible with either real world experience or novelizations that try to draw on it.

As such I wouldn't expect any improvements to regular Marines regardless of what the core rules are based on.

As for the models, what I wouldn't give for Mk.III Marines designed to Primaris proportions.

 Ketara wrote:
I would expect once Heresy is done for there to be a few post-Terra books to account for the immediate few thousand years afterwards (so the mop-up, War of the Beast, etc). That will allow them to expand the army lists for that point in history to include more of the regular marine offerings, and give them somewhere to live as 40K gradually squeezes the old marine core line out.

I've wondered about this too - I think that MK VII armour was supposed to have been used during the Siege of Terra for the first time, so they wouldn't have to expand very far forward to include it! I'm not sure about MK VIII, but then only a few existing models have MK VIII parts. Perhaps they might release a new Heresy/Siege of Terra MK VII kit at some point when old marines are dropped from 40k.

 Geifer wrote:
That said, with the large number of Heresy novels and, if I gathered this correctly, the foundation of Cawl's Primaris program being in the wake of the Horus Heresy (do correct me if I got this wrong, please) I'd expect the Heresy (and possibly the Siege) itself to stay intact but the aftermath getting some Primaris action.

Primaris-like marines were always a thing in the Heresy, see Raven Guard/Alpha Legion Raptors and various gene-edited Blackshields (especially these with bonus to statlines were pretty much Primaris alpha version).

Really, they should pull heads out of their arses and lean on 40K models more, not only stop pretending Sanguinary Guard and other Legion formations using Heresy era relics/units from 40K don't exist, but give HH rules to plastic Mortarion and Magnus. These two looked like that on Terra already, FW has no excuse to not spend 5 minutes writing rules seeing all the work had already been done for them.

BrianDavion wrote:
Are Razorbacks in the Heresy era lists?

Please, there were TONS of stuff that was supposedly 40K invention, stuff that was then retconned into HH. Remember how thunder hammers were loyalist only, now in HH and CSM edition? Land Speeders? Storm Shields? Storm Bolters? Modern looking plasma guns/pistols? Modern gloves on power armour, instead of ones looking like on old CSM kits?

Really, I wouldn't be surprised if Land Raider Crusader and Centurions were retconned into HH in the next FW book...

RazorEdge wrote:
It was mentioned that currently Heresy is still producing very healthy sales figures

Did it occur to these clowns that maybe, just maybe they have any sales at all is thanks to the fact 90% of their output is SM? And guess what 40K book came out recently, complete with supplements heavily pushing said variant SM, throwing a lifeline to a team that doesn't deserve it at all? Especially seeing I'd bet half of these sales is only due to broken SM junk being spammed by WAAC types?

I like how they can say this with a straight face after they started mass LCTB SM upgrade packs (due to competition with much better and cheaper plastic ones?) and Mechanicus stuff (gee, if only there was one supposedly finished book that would massively boost sales some lazy idiots can't even send to printer) due to lack of sales. Healthy, you say?

I also bet sales would be vastly larger if they did what Alan wanted to do and dumped the crap rule set that nearly managed to sink 40K and went with 8th edition (if only because a lot of people used to invest into side HH army to play it in 40K thanks to common rules due to lack of HH players around), but alas, they seem hell bent on throwing more money into that bottomless pit to not admit their mistake...

 Yodhrin wrote:
And as much as it might pain some people to acknowledge, the combination of "people who don't like Primaris", "people who don't like 8th", and "people who really like the Heresy fluff" is sufficiently large to sustain the system.

In vegetative-like state, with no new releases, constant LCTBs, and the line not being squatted only due to pity money thrown by 40K players who stuck to Codex SM in the two years of it being bad? Yup, we saw how the group who can't be bothered to learn new, much better system due to 'they changed it so it suxxx' syndrome can ""support"" HH as a game in the last three years, thank you very much

 Yodhrin wrote:
I certainly don't agree regarding the superiority of 8th - I don't see how it would address your central problem with the existing Heresy rules anyway, since 8th is more killy than previous editions

Yup, 8th is bad, and that's why GW sales break records for the third year in a row and HH nosedived in sales and popularity since the exceedingly dumb, Alan wish breaking decision to remain in 7th was taken. Yuppers.

As for 8th being more killy, you know you won't have broken stuff like things Tau and Eldar spam in HH, right? Really, you could take existing SM supplements, replace superdoctrines with Rites of War, there, you have 90% of the work needed for HH done.

People dislike Primaris because of their more tacticool aesthetic

Which is hilarious when it comes to HH players because 95% of Primaris look was based on HH. What is the difference between Mor Deythan/Headhunters and Primaris Eliminators? Literally nothing. Legion plasma support squad and Hellblasters? Zero. Mk IV and Mk X? So small most people wouldn't tell them apart. Really, I could (maybe) understand someone attracted to flanderized, rubbish-encrusted marines of 40K not liking primaris look, but HH players not liking them mostly act like spoiled three year old children

Cyrixiinus wrote:

 Tamereth wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
Plastic Imperial Army would be nice.

I don't even care about new models, just a proper imperial army list would be awesome.

The news that the team working on age of darkness will be increased is good to hear. But I'm guessing it will be at least another 18 months before we see any sort of increase in the number of releases we see. A new plastic starter box for AoD is the biggest thing that is needed right now. Basically everyone I know that plays started when the calthclath / prospero boxes were available

Isn't the Warp Cults and Militia list meant, or usable for, for the Imperial Army?

Not exactly. Militia represent local planetary defence forces cobbled together or barely organised cultists. You can absolutely use them to represent the Army, but they're not Imperial Army regulars. It's the opposite of how you can use the Imperial Guard to represent PDF.

There was an interview floating around from one of the recent(ish) Weekenders where FW said they'd like to do an Imperial Army Regulars list. Presumably it's faaar down the priorities, but if/when we get a Tallarn book I could see it happening there. The question is going to be if we'll see any dedicated kits for it beyond a few shared SA/Militia/Army armoured vehicles, especially with FW's willingness to indulge in plastics more these days and potential Guard players scooping them up for conversions.

Playing Tallarn with infantry would be.. hilarious?

But a Tallarn book would be nice, bit of back to the roots for FW while they're at it.

 Yodhrin wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
It’s interesting how much disagreement there is on what 30k should become. I don’t expect 30k fans will agree with me at all on what follows.

Personally I played a lot of 30k during 7th, because it was so much better as a game. I had a large imperial fist army and was working on raven guard. But since 8th edition I haven’t played at all.

Two things changed. I find 8th a far better game generally than 7th, and I much prefer Primaris models.

As a game I don’t think 30k ever really succeeded at becoming what it was supposed to be. All the stories are about marines fighting each other, often with big units shooting bolters at each other and then brutal close combats between them. But on the table 30k features so many units that are so good at massacring marines that it’s simply not viable to field these big units.

That has been the case since betrayal came out and has only worsened, with the introduction of yet more anti-meq weapons and armies like custodes and admech. The marines that the game ought to be about are victims, not protagonists.

Secondly, 30k had the best marine models until, in my opinion, Primaris came out. Overnight I think the appearance of marines in more or less anatomical proportions made the entire previous marine range look stupid. It’s like seeing a child’s drawing with all the mistakes highlighted. I think the problem is biggest with the old 40k range, especially terminators - which have never been anything like the shape of a human. The Primaris range appears to have at least tried to look right, and the difference is striking.

I certainly don't agree regarding the superiority of 8th - I don't see how it would address your central problem with the existing Heresy rules anyway, since 8th is more killy than previous editions and those core regular Marines would die off even faster unless they rewrote the rules to such an extent you couldn't really call it 8th anymore at all - but I don't think you'll find a huge amount of opposition to your reasoning about Primaris.

People dislike Primaris because of their more tacticool aesthetic, or because they don't like the visual disparity between them and their existing Marine collection when put down side-by-side on the tabletop, or because of their awful fluff and the way their introduction humped aspects of the 40K setting they liked. It's rare, though, that you'll find people who won't acknowledge their proportions look a lot better than the older Marines. In fact another reason some people dislike them is they make it less likely we'll get "fixed" versions of the traditional Marine.

Bigger, better proportioned Marines aren't the problem, the problem is the specific implementation of that concept.

For what it’s worth, I think deathwatch/heroes/chaos marines have much better proportions than Primaris. Primaris look more like an unaugmented human in power armour than an inhumanly broad Astartes.

OrkPlayer137 wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
I would expect once Heresy is done for there to be a few post-Terra books to account for the immediate few thousand years afterwards (so the mop-up, War of the Beast, etc). That will allow them to expand the army lists for that point in history to include more of the regular marine offerings, and give them somewhere to live as 40K gradually squeezes the old marine core line out.

I've wondered about this too - I think that MK VII armour was supposed to have been used during the Siege of Terra for the first time, so they wouldn't have to expand very far forward to include it! I'm not sure about MK VIII, but then only a few existing models have MK VIII parts. Perhaps they might release a new Heresy/Siege of Terra MK VII kit at some point when old marines are dropped from 40k.

Well, so long as you subscribe to the idea that they're gradually phasing out traditional marines in favour of Primaris, it makes sense both from a in-game and real-life chronological perspective. We know that Games Workshop is struggling to find shelf-space for their kits these days, and it's really quite apparent that Primaris are the future for Space Marine releases. All the characters are gradually being primarisified, and the Primaris have gradually gone from being one generic list to an equal standing to the traditional marines over the last few years. New units to replace the Rhino, dreadnought, land raider, and so on. If things carry on, I would expect to see the bog standard classic marine units reduced to a generic single list in the next Space Marine codex with Primaris being the assumed default.

But that leaves Games Workshop with a problem; namely, how do you finally excise the traditional marines for good? They look poor compared to Primaris, don't fit the lore moving forward. and clog up valuable shelf space. If you flat out eliminate them, people will complain vociferously. Too many players own classic marines. You can't just tell them to 'count as' Primaris because the weapon and rule loadouts are too different (grav tanks, ten plasma gun squads, etc).

So what's the obvious answer? Simple. Move them to the 30K game. If we assume that this is happening another edition or two from now, we're talking three to six years probably. By that time, Forgeworld can wrap up the Siege of Terra and look at what comes next. It would be child's play at that stage to release a new batch of lists on the basis of 30-39K gaming. You can move all the generic marine line across to Forgeworld and specialist gaming, get them off the shop shelves, and still leave them usable somewhere for people who want to keep playing them. Run a Forgeworld campaign around the War of the Beast which shows the classic chapters all using armour of several marksor something to cement them, et voila.

The classic marines are now specialist and '30k' is now just 'Pre-Guilliman' or some other more inclusive tag. Simple, easy, and effective.

If forgeworld could make a decent ulanor book I think adding orks would be awesome but would have to be handled carefully. I honestly eventually wouldn't mind eldar and even necrons added if both are handled well. What makes 30k work is there is still a force org, it starts at 1750ps and lords of war are indexed to the overall size of the game. It's not perfect but it's better than 8th in about every conceivable way possible and it even has rules for terrain, imagine that. New plastics would be a welcome addition and likely just as popular as the last two boxes. They'll also have the ability to push zone mortalis now that it's plastic, although a 4x4 still seems just as portability expensive.

 Irbis wrote:
Did it occur to these clowns that maybe, just maybe they have any sales at all is thanks to the fact 90% of their output is SM? And guess what 40K book came out recently, complete with supplements heavily pushing said variant SM, throwing a lifeline to a team that doesn't deserve it at all? Especially seeing I'd bet half of these sales is only due to broken SM junk being spammed by WAAC types?

Pretty much every sentence in your post should have started with, "I feel that..." because everything you've written is emotionally loaded conjecture. The original post quotes that sales figures for the game are healthy, so why come in and spew all your feelings about primaris and eighth edition? People who want those things can play 40k and people who want to play 30k can continue to play the game they've been playing.

This is a thread on the existing horus heresy game proceeding forward as it is. Let it be that.

Nurglitch wrote:
I'd imagine another HH game like Betrayal at Calth or the Burning of Prospero is in order. I want my plastic Beakie squads damnit!

It's really weird how you spelled "Mk5" as "Beakies".

JWBS wrote:
If they release another plastic Heresy set they'll have to upscale the marines to be proportionate to Primaris. Marinelets won't sell anymore, at least not in numbers.

Well that means new marines would have to be feet shorter than primaris marines are. After all space marines are 7, primaris 8 feet.

people keep saying marinelets won't sell but last time I was in my local GW I saw 3 people buying them