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Made in se
Been Around the Block




Wow! Thanks for all the responses. I see that at least this forum is most certainly still active. A lot of good information and advice there, I appreciate that.

The suggestions to play an older version of it are solid (I actually do that with D&D ... 1st Ed. AD&D for the win!), however since I literally own nothing WH40K, I was considering just making 9th "my version" and starting with the Indomitus box set. I don't really know the history of it, but there is some suggestion that many previous editions were largely compatible. I'd just be worried about investing in 9th only for all the miniatures that I painted to suddenly be "obsolete" in two or three years. It's not so much the rules that worry me, but all the time it goes into painting miniatures. They really pulled a fast one by scaling up the size to 32mm, it's one thing that really annoys me not only because it obsoleted everyone's old miniatures, which was obviously the intent, but also takes up more space on a limited table (and takes longer to paint). Anyway, I think I could look past that as I guess they're not going to repeat that trick anytime soon. Roughly how "compatible" are the miniatures between different versions of the game, to give me a rough idea?


ccs wrote:
All you'll be (if you're not already) is one of the trolls who's hobby is railing against the game/company vs actually playing & having some fun with your friends.
So just spare us all & take up a different hobby.

I don't think I've ever met a single player of GW games that doesn't rail against the company. GW sucks and the way they price gouge their player base they deserve to be out of business to be fair. But I think they're just too big to fail now. That does not mean the game can not be good, nor does it mean you can't play and have fun with your friends. But you don't have to be a "fan boy" of a blatantly money-grubbing company and from the sound of it, many people on this forum agree, so save your condescending posts next time thanks.

PenitentJake wrote:Question: do you like to play stand alone or competitive games, or are you a campaign player.

To be honest, I don't know! I am guessing it would mostly be stand-alone.

PenitentJake wrote:If you like stand alone competitive games, it's a bit of a crap shoot whether or not you'll like this version of the game better than the last time you played. There are pluses and minuses, and really it's all going to boil down to personal preference.

Certainly seems that way. Very mixed reviews in this thread.


Eilif wrote:What might be worth it however, is the built-in playerbase.

This is exactly at the crux of so many issues that have come up in this thread. Why not play an old version? Why not play a different indie rules-set? How do GW get away with price-gouging? They're too big. The lore however is excellent. They nailed that.


aphyon wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Yeah pretty much, but you are asking on Dakka. Salt central.


Be honest, that's pretty much any active forum with a 40K community. warseer used to be the same before it crashed.

People can armchair command and debate from the safety of their computer without much concern for real world blowback.

As I already mentioned, anywhere where players discuss the GW company seems to be "salt central" and for good reason.

Out of curiosity .... what would be the "real world blowback" for having a whinge about GW's dodgy marketing practices?


   
Made in ca
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran



Canada

If you haven’t played before but feel the itch now then I think that 9th is a good place to start. The Indomitus box is great value, although bits not a true a Starter Set. Still great models and you get the big Main Rule Book. The core rules of 9th are good and easy to digest. Much better than 3rd through 7th and are an improvement on the 8th reset. That is my subjective opinion.

Will there be another edition? I certainly think so. The models will carry over at least.

Do you heave a local 40K gaming scene?

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in us
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols





washington state USA

The blowback comes in several ways-
.people who never played before 8th ed and know nothing about how the game used to be (as i said it is literally a different game)
.people who are GW simps for various reasons-player base, miniature quality etc...
.people who only want to play whatever is the newest and are constantly chasing the GW info/update dumps.
.the divide between casual lore/fun players and the more tournament minded (9th was really more designed with them in mind, we can talk about the merits of the crusade system VS the old kill teams progression system VS in built lore based rules etc.. at another time)

etc....

when you even suggest doing something like the fantasy players have been doing when AOS destroyed the game they loved (going back to a prior edition that most veteran players loved)

At our FLGS...when things are normal we have a core group of say....10 very active players who play 40K along with other games(and a hit and miss of randoms that come in and join us on regular game night). many of us like the mechanics from 5th better, some like both (because they are so different they can use the same models in their collection for the most part for both versions), some only want to play the "new shiny" when they play 40K.


Invalidating models is also a serious issue now with 9th. GW has moved many minis to "legends" status. they will never get an update again and can only be used in casual games with opponent permission. it became a thing after GW lost the chapter house court case so they had to re-brand everything in a way they could copyright it

It is another great thing that those of us championing returning to 5th. all the dexes are available, the rules will never get changed again and nothing will get removed from the game (and they are much cheaper to buy used. i own 10 of the old dexes even though i only ever play my salamanders or dark angels unless i borrow an army from a friend. otherwise i have the books on hand for other players to use if they want to join in)

Of course this like any other non-GW game requires a bit of in person promotion to spread the love of the game. i have done a pretty good job in the past getting new players into classic battletech, DUST, warmachine, infinity etc... just by bringing along spare armies for demo games.






GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




PieInTheSky 795449 11032620 wrote:

Are there any other good reasons I should bite the bullet and buy this? Is there any indication it's not simply going to be replaced by WH40K v10 in 18 months time?


It depends on a lot on what army you play. I don't think many people would say that it would be a good idea to start lets say Tau right now. There is a ton of good armies that are doing very well in 9th. I personaly having only a comperation between 8th and 9th, can say that for me and my army, the improvement is hard to quantify, because it is so big when one compares quality of gaming one gets. Until most armies, or at least armies you play get fully updated it is hard to judge 9th, specialy as GW did fix its main problem , or at least tried to fix it, in the form of huge adventage of person going first and last turn of second player not mattering at all. Which often resulted here in people just not playing it.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in gb
Stubborn White Lion




I'd say if you are getting back into the game due to nostalgia it will never live up to how it was in your salad days. If you want to invest, enjoy the miniatures, enjoy having fun in the games but don't expect anything incredible.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






PieInTheSky wrote:
Wow! Thanks for all the responses. I see that at least this forum is most certainly still active. A lot of good information and advice there, I appreciate that.

The suggestions to play an older version of it are solid (I actually do that with D&D ... 1st Ed. AD&D for the win!), however since I literally own nothing WH40K, I was considering just making 9th "my version" and starting with the Indomitus box set. I don't really know the history of it, but there is some suggestion that many previous editions were largely compatible. I'd just be worried about investing in 9th only for all the miniatures that I painted to suddenly be "obsolete" in two or three years.


(1) I wouldn't worry too much about models becoming obsolete. Outside of more unusual models that were put in "legend" status, the vast majority of models from decades ago are perfectly valid still.

(2) The indomitus box is a good deal and you get some great stuff in there, plus a really nice copy of the full rule book. That said, it's entirely possible for GW to release a 10th edition in 2-3 years, and your rule books at a minimum will become obsolete.

(3) All this said... there are some major differences between the "modern" editions (8th and 9th) and the "classic" version (3rd through 7th).

For what it's worth, and in my opinion, classic warhammer was a more intuitive and less bloated system by a wide margins. The core rules were a bit more involved, but once you got comfortable with them it was smooth to play.

The basic tenor of the game IS different now in a rather fundamental way. 8th/9th added a command point resource management angle to the game, which when combined with a huge pile of stratagems to learn and many, many more special rules at the codex level, makes the whole game fee more focused around combo-building at the army list stage, with that being the main "show" gameplay wise compared to table level tactical decisions. When people say 8th/9th feels more like a collectible card game (CCG) this is what they mean.

Few other examples of how things have have changed:

- Vehicles aren't treated with special rules at all. They are basically just the same as other models but with more wound points. No variable armor facings or damage tables.

- Cover saves and armor saves work differently, and in general cover isn't as relevant and powerful as it used to be (cuts down on table leve tactical opportunities)

- Morale is completely abstracted. Units no longer break and fallback, but instead failing tests just removes additional models. Not very thematic or fun.

- There is much more reliance on modifiers to die rolls, which IMHO bogs the game down. Much of the gameplay is about starcking buffs and aura effects on units to stack modifiers and/or re-roll abilities. This pulls emphasis off the tactical spatial play and is responsible for a lot of bloat on the rules.

- At a competitive level, a fair number of people grumble about the mission design and the overall lethality of the game. It seems easier now to win the game at the list building stage, which turns into being able to neutralize an opponent in 1-2 turns. Games feel like they are decided pretty quick, compared to the old versions where it often came right down to the final moments.

So it's a tough choice.

If you want to have the option to play with people in stores or clubs, the newest version, for good or bad, is probably what you are going to have to play. This comes with the baggage of having to "stay current" with FAQs and rule errata to some degree. And it is just a different game now than it was.

If you think you'll be forming your own group, and they are willing to play an older version, and you think the older rule systems sound better, it might be worth looking into picking up some older books (start with 5th edition - you can get the rule book used for like $5 on Amazon). But it can be a more lonely journey.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/19 12:52:01


Want a better 40K?
Check out ProHammer: Classic - An Awesomely Unified Ruleset for 3rd - 7th Edition 40K... for retro 40k feels!
 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Karol wrote:

I don't think many people would say that it would be a good idea to start lets say Tau right now.


I'd strongly recommend tau if the player seeking advice considers them the best looking army, and likes their style of playing. By the time he's actually gathered the models to play, game is already completely different.

On the contrary if someone starts an army just because it currently does fine but the time he's actually ready to play that army could have been nerfed into oblivion. At least in the first case the player had a good time with the hobby part.

I'd never recommend playing SM for example, because mirror matches are boring and can actually kill the interest for the hobby very soon. I also consider all of their modern models god-awful but that's just my personal taste.

The pendulum swings, especially for the biggest standalone factions.

 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




Southampton, UK

PieInTheSky wrote:
They really pulled a fast one by scaling up the size to 32mm, it's one thing that really annoys me not only because it obsoleted everyone's old miniatures, which was obviously the intent, but also takes up more space on a limited table (and takes longer to paint). Anyway, I think I could look past that as I guess they're not going to repeat that trick anytime soon. Roughly how "compatible" are the miniatures between different versions of the game, to give me a rough idea?



Are you talking about the Primaris marines here?

People theorise that these were originally intended as a replacement to the existing Space Marine range, but that isn't what ultimately happened. They work alongside the original Space Marines, and are intended to be slightly bigger. I'm not aware of any overall official change of scale.

Compatibility is fine. Some people still use metal models from 30 years ago. Hell, if you buy a brand new box of Khorne Berzerkers right now, you're buying a 20+ year old set of models. Other than looking older and less detailed than the newer sculpts, they are fine to play with.
   
Made in fi
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






If you like the 40K lore and minis but dont like amassing a huge army, I strongly recommend checking out Kill Team.

I used to play 40K about a decade ago and then stopped, got back to 40K a few years ago. Had I known about the existence of Kill Team, I might have skipped out on the whole 40K thing and now would just be playing Kill Team. Would have saved me a bunch of money.

BTW, your old minis are still fine and you can use them in current 40K. If you have old minis on a smaller base size than what is used now, just rebase the old minis - its easy to clip off the edges on the plastic bases, then just glue the old one onto a bigger base and redo the bse with sand (or whatever you prefer, flock, technical paints, coffee grounds etc)





If you do decide to give Kill Team a try, be aware that a new expansion (or even a new starter perhaps?) is coming out in Q1 / 2021.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/01/19 14:15:17


 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




After the DG codex leaks came out? Nope. Not worth it in the slightest. If you are interested in kitbashing or making your models personal in any way, GW will just gut your army because they are not loyalist SMs.


Curious what about the codex has you feeling this way?


people who never played before 8th ed and know nothing about how the game used to be (as i said it is literally a different game


Ha .. People who haven't played 8th or 9th but somehow have very strong feelings on the mechanics has been an issue lately.

To the OP -

I would say it kind of depends. 8th, for all its faults was actually fairly fun over all. The catch with 9th is that the core rules, while similar, are just different enough that I don't know if I would agree that it really is "8.5". It just plays very differently. It's not bad although the missions start to get a little "samey" after a while, and we've already seen (on the first two books out of the gate) that classic GW move of differing design philosophies. COVID has obviously thrown a giant wrench into the works here, or more books would be out, but my suggestion would be to give it a few more codex releases before you decide. If the books end up close enough in power and design philosophy then this will be a pretty good edition I think. Especially if you're just looking at garage hammer.

The nice thing is, unlike when you last played, things get updated now. If something is broken, you typically get a fix within a few months, rather than just knowing it's going to be broken for the rest of the edition.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/19 14:11:02


Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut




You might want to take the salty ex-players' salt with a grain of salt.

Truth is, 40k 8th edition was the best so far and 9th is proving to be more of the same, better even, with very regular updates and balance fixes, tons of awesome new models, etc.

There has never yet been a better time to come back to 40K, anyone who is not currently pissed off at GW will be able to admit as much.
   
Made in us
Brigadier General






Chicago

PieInTheSky wrote:
Wow! Thanks for all the responses. I see that at least this forum is most certainly still active. A lot of good information and advice there, I appreciate that.

The suggestions to play an older version of it are solid (I actually do that with D&D ... 1st Ed. AD&D for the win!), however since I literally own nothing WH40K, I was considering just making 9th "my version" and starting with the Indomitus box set. I don't really know the history of it, but there is some suggestion that many previous editions were largely compatible. I'd just be worried about investing in 9th only for all the miniatures that I painted to suddenly be "obsolete" in two or three years. It's not so much the rules that worry me, but all the time it goes into painting miniatures. They really pulled a fast one by scaling up the size to 32mm, it's one thing that really annoys me not only because it obsoleted everyone's old miniatures, which was obviously the intent, but also takes up more space on a limited table (and takes longer to paint). Anyway, I think I could look past that as I guess they're not going to repeat that trick anytime soon. Roughly how "compatible" are the miniatures between different versions of the game, to give me a rough idea?



Eilif wrote:What might be worth it however, is the built-in playerbase.

This is exactly at the crux of so many issues that have come up in this thread. Why not play an old version? Why not play a different indie rules-set? How do GW get away with price-gouging? They're too big. The lore however is excellent. They nailed that.

A few things.

-Older versions:
If you expect to have opponents, there really is no point in using an older version of the game. The exception might be if you get some old-hammer players who want to play Rogue Trader or 2nd edition, but that's a rare breed. I actually played a throwback game of 2nd edition and it cured me of the rose-colored glasses for that one...

-Alternate rulesets:
If you have opponents who like alternate rulesets, skip 9th edition entirely and have a look at the "Grimdark Future" free rules from One-Page-Rules.
https://onepagerules.com/portfolio/grimdark-future/
If you don't have friends who are into alternate rulesets 9th edition is likely the only game in town for the 40k universe.

-Scale creep and model legality...
Scale creep has happened but as has been mentioned, the vast majority of 40k figures ever made and nearly everything produced in the last 20 years is still completely legal regardless of scale descrpenecies.

-32mm bases
AFAIK, you don't have to rebase miniatures for new bases if they are on the bases they were equipped with. However, if you have old figures or save money by buying old figures and want to adhere to the new base sizes, your cheap solution for base expansion is here:
https://eccentricminiatures.com/accessories.html

-Current rules.
Though I'm through with 40k, as a fan of more streamlined rulesets, have to admit that these are some the best 40k rules I've seen in a decade at least.

Best of luck whatever you decide to do.

Chicago Skirmish Wargames club. Join us for some friendly, casual gaming in the Windy City.
http://chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/


My Project Log, mostly revolving around custom "Toybashed" terrain.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/651712.page

Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad!
https://chicagovalleyrailroad.blogspot.com 
   
Made in de
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

From a collecting point of view, GW have made it nicer to collect a force with their various bundles and Start Collecting sets. I really appreciate those set and enjoy making them. They sold so much more stuff to me by having those slightly discounted bundles than they otherwise would have!

   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




From a collecting point of view, GW have made it nicer to collect a force with their various bundles and Start Collecting sets. I really appreciate those set and enjoy making them. They sold so much more stuff to me by having those slightly discounted bundles than they otherwise would have!


Yeah, the bundles are really nice, and we're at a point where you can even get a bunch of stuff on ebay fairly cheap.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




I wouldn't recommend it.

The price of new kits is exorbitant, and continues to rise. This causes used minis to become more expensive, as well. The Start Collecting boxes were a good idea, but were overpriced to begin with, received a price increase or two, and are now being replaced with Combat Patrols at a whopping $140.

You will most likely have little trouble finding people to play with.

The rules? Well................... You may like some or all of it, but here are my thoughts.

The most tactical part of 40k is list building. Leaders have aura abilities that, generally, modify to hit and to wound rolls for units within the specified range. Some cause what are called Mortal Wounds, which were created as a reaction to units with high durability from invulnerable or cover saves in 7th ed. Models cannot make saving throws against mortal wounds................ except for saves that can......

Stratagems are played like instants/sorceries in MTG; you pay the required cost in Command Points, and activate a buff- again, often + or - or rerolls to hit and/or to wound. Some abilities that units possessed natively have become stratagems.

Every model can attack with all of its weapons, at different targets. Monstrous creatures and vehicles can fire through themselves......

8th introduced a keyword system that has been implemented crudely, as an attempt to encourage players to build fluffy and/or single-codex armies. The system is one of many band-aids that result from 40k's IGOUGO activation style and shallow core rules. Keywords overcomplicate gameplay, list building, and make unit entries a pain to read.

Hand-in-hand with keywords are Chapter Tactics and equivalents, that provide special rules based on what keyword your army uses. <Ultramarines> <Imperial Fists. and ><Raven Guard> share nearly all units and equipment, but because the core rules are move, shoot, stab, the rules team decided that CTs needed to exist to make armies play fluffy. Aaaaand they mostly adjust the math.

Before 8th, 40k used Universal Special Rules for abilities that were c common across armies; Deep Strike, Fleet, Rage, Fearless, etc. Then GW got the dumb idea to give special rules different, long-winded names for different armies. These bespoke rules are the same rule by different names, occasionally with insignificant differences. Bespoke rules also take longer to read and memoize because the rules are written long-form instead of a quick formula, with fluffy gibberish. You may leave a unit with Totally Not Deep Strike in the Warp....... Or underground, or........ Some of these rules don't even function as written. Chaos players can't put their terminators into the warp, for example.

On the whole, 9th 40k is a mish-mash that is both overcomplicated and oversimplified at once. Balance between armies is poor. Balance within a codex is poor. Especially for pickup games.

You can never be sure if your army will be competitive, or for how long.

Strategy and tactics are minimal. Movement matters for reaching objectives and bringing units into range, maneuver isn't really present.

People still play GW games because GW has inertia with a large player base that perpetuates itself. No-one wants to be "first" to play a different game, because they fear that other people won't play it, thereby ensuring that never happens. People love the lore and the minis, too. Many people who play GW games, I'd bet, are "Warhammer players." Not "Wargamers." For whatever reason, perhaps the culture among players I've experienced firsthand that is an exclusive, GW-only group, or mere comfort, GW persists, despite anti-player practices.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/19 17:01:47


 
   
Made in us
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer





Mississippi

If I were to make any recommendations for someone getting into the game, I'd urge them to look at games in the 1K point range - they're much saner and easier on the wallet.

GW is really pushing the game at the 2K level in a way that only benefits their bottom line, not the health of the game.

Of course, the issue is getting other people to agree to the lower points level. I've not met many who are of similar mind.

It never ends well 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






morgoth wrote:
You might want to take the salty ex-players' salt with a grain of salt.


Yes, because you also have a reputation for being a bastion of unbiased opinions...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/19 17:16:15



Games Workshop Delenda Est.

Users on ignore- 53.

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Blackie wrote:


I'd strongly recommend tau if the player seeking advice considers them the best looking army, and likes their style of playing. By the time he's actually gathered the models to play, game is already completely different.


that is exactly the thing a new player wants to do. spend 700$ or more on an army. find out it is outdated, invest even more to keep it up to speed, assuming he can and it doesn't turn in to him never finishing an army till he is 30 and buys one in one go, only to find out that the new thing may not even make a good army. This melicious level of evil. Only worse thing I can imagine it enticing a new player to spend money on an army which is or will be phased out, or litteraly telling them to start playing a dead game.

Also considering the number of different builds space marines generate, telling that they are somehow mono build or prone to mirror matchs is odd, when armies like harlis or orks or demons more or less have this one way to play. With marines sometimes buying two or three boxs of infantry you get a new army, can take an IH army buy 12-13 TWC models and you can build a SW army. Spam attack bikes or Eradictors, or both, or run more VanVets instead etc.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






Blastaar wrote:
I wouldn't recommend it.

....

You will most likely have little trouble finding people to play with.

The rules? Well................... You may like some or all of it, but here are my thoughts.


Blastaar's post pretty much hits it for me as well.

As someone who "wants to play an awesome MINUATURE tabletop wargame" - 8th/9th edition have pulled away from that direction, IMHO. It's still a good game, and is clearly popular and doing well - but it just isn't the same game as the 40K I fell in love with.

Really, for the OP - the key question is what do you want out of your involvement with the game/hobby. If it's keeping up with the Jones' and getting involved with the local playerbase, maybe playing in events/tournaments/etc, then you HAVE to play 9th edition. There's no way around it.

If you're more interested in "Garage Hammer" or finding/growing your own group of players, then I'd really suggest at least giving older editions consideration. You can buy into the older editions for a fraction of the price, and depending on what kind of gameplay you want, might deliver on the promise for a miniature wargame much better. There is something to be said for stepping off the GW treadmill and making 40K "your own" instead of being at the mercy of GW. There is ALWAYS angst about the current edition of the game, and going back to earlier editions avoids the bulk of it.

As a personal plug, see the link to ProHammer in my signature. This is a project I've been working on over the past year to create a unified ruleset for "classic" 40K. All you need is the core 5th edition rule book (can be bought for less than $10 used) along side that document, and you can play classic games using ANY codex released for 3rd through 7th edition. I'm working on a full re-write of it right now that cleans things up more and will result in not needing the 5th ed rulebook at all. My group has been playing ProHammer, I've been teaching it to some new players as well, and it's gone over well.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/19 17:42:37


Want a better 40K?
Check out ProHammer: Classic - An Awesomely Unified Ruleset for 3rd - 7th Edition 40K... for retro 40k feels!
 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Karol wrote:
 Blackie wrote:


I'd strongly recommend tau if the player seeking advice considers them the best looking army, and likes their style of playing. By the time he's actually gathered the models to play, game is already completely different.


that is exactly the thing a new player wants to do. spend 700$ or more on an army. find out it is outdated, invest even more to keep it up to speed, assuming he can and it doesn't turn in to him never finishing an army till he is 30 and buys one in one go, only to find out that the new thing may not even make a good army. This melicious level of evil. Only worse thing I can imagine it enticing a new player to spend money on an army which is or will be phased out, or litteraly telling them to start playing a dead game.

Also considering the number of different builds space marines generate, telling that they are somehow mono build or prone to mirror matchs is odd, when armies like harlis or orks or demons more or less have this one way to play. With marines sometimes buying two or three boxs of infantry you get a new army, can take an IH army buy 12-13 TWC models and you can build a SW army. Spam attack bikes or Eradictors, or both, or run more VanVets instead etc.


People that want to play competitive games should be aware that chasing the flavour of the month is unavoidable, so spending money regularly on miniatures is the only way to go. Only a fraction of players are actually willing to do that, because competitive game is still in the minority. Typically every collection of models with some variety in it is good for casual games with 50-75% (or more of course) of the size of that collection. Including Tau.

And orks have multiple competitive builds. Take a look at their winning lists, most of them are different. In more relaxed metas they have even more. Daemons also have a huge roster, they're actually 4 different factions.

Problem with getting 12-13 TWC, bikes spam etc... is that if GW nerfs ONE unit your entire army is nerfed. I'd never suggest someone that wants to start the hobby to collect a skew list. And I'd suggest avoiding skew armies like Harlequins, Custodes, Imperial Knights, Grey Knights as well unless they found a huge deal on the second hand market.

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

PieInTheSky wrote:

ccs wrote:
All you'll be (if you're not already) is one of the trolls who's hobby is railing against the game/company vs actually playing & having some fun with your friends.
So just spare us all & take up a different hobby.

I don't think I've ever met a single player of GW games that doesn't rail against the company. GW sucks and the way they price gouge their player base they deserve to be out of business to be fair. But I think they're just too big to fail now. That does not mean the game can not be good, nor does it mean you can't play and have fun with your friends. But you don't have to be a "fan boy" of a blatantly money-grubbing company and from the sound of it, many people on this forum agree, so save your condescending posts next time thanks.


{shrugs} Ok, then join the game. Prove me wrong & become a happy enough 40k player.
Just know that what you started your 1st post complaining about isn't ever going to change (improve). At best it'll stay the same. At worst.... If you join now, be prepared to buy a new edition come about summer 2024.

I must admit though that I don't understand why someone who views the game/product as a money grab, by a company that they say they're opposed to giving $ to on principal, would do this.... But welcome to 40k.
   
Made in ca
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer





British Columbia

I can't see 10th being any later than June/July 2023.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in us
Commanding Lordling





PieInTheSky wrote:
Wow! Thanks for all the responses. I see that at least this forum is most certainly still active. A lot of good information and advice there, I appreciate that.

The suggestions to play an older version of it are solid (I actually do that with D&D ... 1st Ed. AD&D for the win!), however since I literally own nothing WH40K, I was considering just making 9th "my version" and starting with the Indomitus box set. I don't really know the history of it, but there is some suggestion that many previous editions were largely compatible. I'd just be worried about investing in 9th only for all the miniatures that I painted to suddenly be "obsolete" in two or three years. It's not so much the rules that worry me, but all the time it goes into painting miniatures. They really pulled a fast one by scaling up the size to 32mm, it's one thing that really annoys me not only because it obsoleted everyone's old miniatures, which was obviously the intent, but also takes up more space on a limited table (and takes longer to paint). Anyway, I think I could look past that as I guess they're not going to repeat that trick anytime soon. Roughly how "compatible" are the miniatures between different versions of the game, to give me a rough idea?


If you get indom and make Necrons your main faction you should be good with out much worries. The marine half is where it gets tricky with supplements and possibly a version 2 book coming out later in the edition (probably no time soon as not every codex has been updated yet). 9th ed should be around for awhile, especially since gw have had to slowdown production thanks to covid.

Not sure what you mean by the 32mm scale up. Old Marines got their bases scaled from 25mm round to 32mm but most people (unless you are going to serious tournaments) will let you play your marines on the smaller base size. I know some models got slightly up scaled, but again out side of competitive play most people will let you play with your old models. Anyone who doesn't let you play with your models is not worth playing. Some weapons options/gear options can become obsolete but again outside of strict competitive play those options are either available in Legends or can be used as a count as something else for most other players.

Again most of your concerns really only apply if you are trying to win highly competitive tournaments. Casual games at a lgs or with friends just talk to your opponent about what your doing and most of the time you will face no issues, and if you do face issues talk to someone else.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







morgoth wrote:
You might want to take the salty ex-players' salt with a grain of salt.

Truth is, 40k 8th edition was the best so far and 9th is proving to be more of the same, better even, with very regular updates and balance fixes, tons of awesome new models, etc.

There has never yet been a better time to come back to 40K, anyone who is not currently pissed off at GW will be able to admit as much.


This is pretty tautological. "Ignore the people who didn't like the 7th/8th change, they're just salty. If you listen to the people who did like the 7th/8th change the game is great now!"

There are a lot of people running around saying "8th/9th is the greatest thing ever!" and sure, they're having a good time, good luck to them. Considering how the community feels in aggregate, however, my impression is that after a brief period of sunshine in early/mid 8th the amount of vitriol pretty much reset itself to where it was in 7e around the time SM book 2 landed. I can also tell you that in my experience everything that's wrong with 8th/9th is exactly the same stuff that was wrong with 7th (wildly uneven releases, appalling internal balance, rules bloat, difficult to pick up as a newbie because you need to do a lot of research to figure out whether the models you like are game-breaking or trash, weird relationship between power tiers and the age of a Codex), and it's all there for the exact same reasons (lack of centralized vision, "we've finished all the Codexes now let's set the game on fire and make a new edition!", each army gets a book-sized update every 4-5 years and then band-aid FAQs that don't fix anything in between, no interest in addressing grandfather-claused stats for older models).

In my experience 9th is a much better tournament game than 7th. If you're the kind of person who reads stats to determine what models to buy/how to equip them, throws away bits when you're done because you've built the model, thinks tournament winrates are the measure of the quality of the game, doesn't mind playing the same stuff everyone else is playing, and is fine with buying new stuff every six months because your list build got hard-countered by some new OP thing everyone else is playing now, 9th is great. If you want to keep using older models without needing to constantly buy new stuff, play models that don't feature in every tournament list, play quick casual games where you throw some models you like on the table and just roll dice and have fun, or like conversions, 9th is comparable to or worse than 7th on every metric.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in gb
Walking Dead Wraithlord






The only thing I would add is. If you are looking to delve into 40k and are worried about models going obsolete I would avoid anything with finecast. Its likely to be phased out or replaced by plastic.

Obviously the newest armies as Primaris marines, Sisters of battle & Necrons should have the longest shelf life on their model range.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




I really didn't like 8th, to me it was a horrible edition. And the very idea that it could have been better then prior ones feels me with dread. 9th ed is much better. It isn't perfect, maybe it isn't even very good, but it is much better then 8th that is for sure.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in ca
Junior Officer with Laspistol





London, Ontario

I did not like where 7th was, and by the end was ready to sell my collection. 8th came around with indexes, and we started playing again, but we stopped when our group couldn't overcome 1st turn advantage... despite plenty of terrain. We just built armies that could mitigate even tremendous amounts of terrain... 1st player won every game we played. After about 20 games we just agreed that it was better than 7th, but the core rules resulted in our games being decided NOT EVEN BY LIST per se, but by who won the first turn.

We are having fun in 9th. 1st turn doesn't win *literally* every game we've played.

I agree it's much less of a WARGAME now, than it used to be. I really do find it's a HEROIC ACTION game now, and while I miss the wargame feel, the heroic action game is FUN. and that's what I care about more than anything. I get to put models down, roll some dice, not have to think *too* hard, have fun with my friends. 9th hits those buttons right on, so that makes me want to play it.
   
Made in gb
Furious Fire Dragon




UK

 Stormonu wrote:
If I were to make any recommendations for someone getting into the game, I'd urge them to look at games in the 1K point range - they're much saner and easier on the wallet.

GW is really pushing the game at the 2K level in a way that only benefits their bottom line, not the health of the game.

Of course, the issue is getting other people to agree to the lower points level. I've not met many who are of similar mind.


This is the exact opposite of current reality as for basically the first time ever (or at least in recent years) GW is actively making missions and providing support for games at 500-1000 points, specifically to help people get into the game.

Nazi punks feth off 
   
Made in se
Been Around the Block




@all:

I read all the replies carefully and thought about the advice in all of them! Thanks so much for replying and offering some insight to a newb.

I haven't replied to them all because I'd be here all night (again, great active forum!), but I did read and appreciate them all.

Crispy78 wrote:
PieInTheSky wrote:
They really pulled a fast one by scaling up the size to 32mm, it's one thing that really annoys me not only because it obsoleted everyone's old miniatures, which was obviously the intent, but also takes up more space on a limited table (and takes longer to paint). Anyway, I think I could look past that as I guess they're not going to repeat that trick anytime soon. Roughly how "compatible" are the miniatures between different versions of the game, to give me a rough idea?



Are you talking about the Primaris marines here?

People theorise that these were originally intended as a replacement to the existing Space Marine range, but that isn't what ultimately happened. They work alongside the original Space Marines, and are intended to be slightly bigger. I'm not aware of any overall official change of scale.

Compatibility is fine. Some people still use metal models from 30 years ago. Hell, if you buy a brand new box of Khorne Berzerkers right now, you're buying a 20+ year old set of models. Other than looking older and less detailed than the newer sculpts, they are fine to play with.

No, I'm talking about their whole miniature range, including the fantasy battle models and BloodBowl. The idea, obviously, was to make the old miniatures obsolete as the scale is now wrong. The new ones are all gigantic compared to what was the industry standard.

I say, "was" sadly, because it's pretty monopolised by GW. Once they started making 32mm miniatures, a lot of indie developers fell in line. The standard was 28mm for a "mid-sized" miniature, which was much better because they were quicker and easier to paint, took up less space on the gaming table, and looked better too. I think the 32mm ones (and tbh, I think a lot of the GW models are well over that even) look too much like "small action figures" and not enough like real miniatures.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Argive wrote:
The only thing I would add is. If you are looking to delve into 40k and are worried about models going obsolete I would avoid anything with finecast. Its likely to be phased out or replaced by plastic.

Obviously the newest armies as Primaris marines, Sisters of battle & Necrons should have the longest shelf life on their model range.

How is what they are made from going to make them obsolete? (genuine question)

I mean obsolete in a rules and/or scale perspective. Not as in a "not made out of the latest thing" perspective. I have a collection of old-school pewter miniatures which I put a lot of time into restoring a painting up nicely. Old bloodbowl miniatures and stuff like that. Those old metal ones are actually much better imo, they feel better due to their weight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ccs wrote:
PieInTheSky wrote:

ccs wrote:
All you'll be (if you're not already) is one of the trolls who's hobby is railing against the game/company vs actually playing & having some fun with your friends.
So just spare us all & take up a different hobby.

I don't think I've ever met a single player of GW games that doesn't rail against the company. GW sucks and the way they price gouge their player base they deserve to be out of business to be fair. But I think they're just too big to fail now. That does not mean the game can not be good, nor does it mean you can't play and have fun with your friends. But you don't have to be a "fan boy" of a blatantly money-grubbing company and from the sound of it, many people on this forum agree, so save your condescending posts next time thanks.


{shrugs} Ok, then join the game. Prove me wrong & become a happy enough 40k player.
Just know that what you started your 1st post complaining about isn't ever going to change (improve). At best it'll stay the same. At worst.... If you join now, be prepared to buy a new edition come about summer 2024.

I must admit though that I don't understand why someone who views the game/product as a money grab, by a company that they say they're opposed to giving $ to on principal, would do this.... But welcome to 40k.

Thanks!

Well, GW plainly are price gouging in a variety of different ways which is off putting when you're thinking about investing money in their products. But that doesn't mean that the lore, atmosphere, mechanics, etc. behind 40K are not appealing. All of those things they've obviously done very well. Especially the lore. Then of course there's the fact that it's the most widely played tabletop wargame, which adds further to the appeal. It's a question I guess of whether it's worth it or not. I'm still not sure it is, so you might not have to put up with me here for long.

I'm not that worried about the rules being obsolete (although that would be slightly annoying, there are ways around it), I'm more worried about collecting a bunch of miniatures and investing time and effort painting them to a decent standard only to have GW change the scale again, or make certain models useless in later editions (i.e. involuntarily retired to the display cabinet), etc. Of course, I could just ignore that and go on playing 9th, but what's the point in that if most people move on to 10th and the others are all playing their favourite older edition (5th or whatever someone mentioned)?

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/01/19 23:02:23


 
   
Made in gb
Walking Dead Wraithlord






Spoiler:
PieInTheSky wrote:
@all:

I read all the replies carefully and thought about the advice in all of them! Thanks so much for replying and offering some insight to a newb.

I haven't replied to them all because I'd be here all night (again, great active forum!), but I did read and appreciate them all.

Crispy78 wrote:
PieInTheSky wrote:
They really pulled a fast one by scaling up the size to 32mm, it's one thing that really annoys me not only because it obsoleted everyone's old miniatures, which was obviously the intent, but also takes up more space on a limited table (and takes longer to paint). Anyway, I think I could look past that as I guess they're not going to repeat that trick anytime soon. Roughly how "compatible" are the miniatures between different versions of the game, to give me a rough idea?



Are you talking about the Primaris marines here?

People theorise that these were originally intended as a replacement to the existing Space Marine range, but that isn't what ultimately happened. They work alongside the original Space Marines, and are intended to be slightly bigger. I'm not aware of any overall official change of scale.

Compatibility is fine. Some people still use metal models from 30 years ago. Hell, if you buy a brand new box of Khorne Berzerkers right now, you're buying a 20+ year old set of models. Other than looking older and less detailed than the newer sculpts, they are fine to play with.

No, I'm talking about their whole miniature range, including the fantasy battle models and BloodBowl. The idea, obviously, was to make the old miniatures obsolete as the scale is now wrong. The new ones are all gigantic compared to what was the industry standard.

I say, "was" sadly, because it's pretty monopolised by GW. Once they started making 32mm miniatures, a lot of indie developers fell in line. The standard was 28mm for a "mid-sized" miniature, which was much better because they were quicker and easier to paint, took up less space on the gaming table, and looked better too. I think the 32mm ones (and tbh, I think a lot of the GW models are well over that even) look too much like "small action figures" and not enough like real miniatures.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Argive wrote:
The only thing I would add is. If you are looking to delve into 40k and are worried about models going obsolete I would avoid anything with finecast. Its likely to be phased out or replaced by plastic.

Obviously the newest armies as Primaris marines, Sisters of battle & Necrons should have the longest shelf life on their model range.

How is what they are made from going to make them obsolete? (genuine question)

I mean obsolete in a rules and/or scale perspective. Not as in a "not made out of the latest thing" perspective. I have a collection of old-school pewter miniatures which I put a lot of time into restoring a painting up nicely. Old bloodbowl miniatures and stuff like that. Those old metal ones are actually much better imo, they feel better due to their weight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ccs wrote:
PieInTheSky wrote:

ccs wrote:
All you'll be (if you're not already) is one of the trolls who's hobby is railing against the game/company vs actually playing & having some fun with your friends.
So just spare us all & take up a different hobby.

I don't think I've ever met a single player of GW games that doesn't rail against the company. GW sucks and the way they price gouge their player base they deserve to be out of business to be fair. But I think they're just too big to fail now. That does not mean the game can not be good, nor does it mean you can't play and have fun with your friends. But you don't have to be a "fan boy" of a blatantly money-grubbing company and from the sound of it, many people on this forum agree, so save your condescending posts next time thanks.


{shrugs} Ok, then join the game. Prove me wrong & become a happy enough 40k player.
Just know that what you started your 1st post complaining about isn't ever going to change (improve). At best it'll stay the same. At worst.... If you join now, be prepared to buy a new edition come about summer 2024.

I must admit though that I don't understand why someone who views the game/product as a money grab, by a company that they say they're opposed to giving $ to on principal, would do this.... But welcome to 40k.

Thanks!

Well, GW plainly are price gouging in a variety of different ways which is off putting when you're thinking about investing money in their products. But that doesn't mean that the lore, atmosphere, mechanics, etc. behind 40K are not appealing. All of those things they've obviously done very well. Especially the lore. Then of course there's the fact that it's the most widely played tabletop wargame, which adds further to the appeal. It's a question I guess of whether it's worth it or not. I'm still not sure it is, so you might not have to put up with me here for long.

I'm not that worried about the rules being obsolete (although that would be slightly annoying, there are ways around it), I'm more worried about collecting a bunch of miniatures and investing time and effort painting them to a decent standard only to have GW change the scale again, or make certain models useless in later editions (i.e. involuntarily retired to the display cabinet), etc. Of course, I could just ignore that and go on playing 9th, but what's the point in that if most people move on to 10th and the others are all playing their favourite older edition (5th or whatever someone mentioned)?


Fine cast resin models are old sculpts that used to be made in metal. I believe there were one or two models that were only produced in fancast and did not have a metal equivalent but I cant think of any of the top of my head.

Some bright spark at GW has decided to use the same molds, and cast these minis in crappy resin instead to save $$.
A common name for GW's fine cast in the community is "Fail Cast" due to alleged poor quality. (Can confirm from extensive personal experience and others will corroborate). The material is very flimsy, brittle and warps very easily and is very unsuited for fine detail. To the point OOP metal sculpts of current fine cast models are usually priced higher than brand new fine cast equivalents. The prime example is the Craftworld & Drukhari factions who have a big chunk of their roster still in fine cast. If you look at any of the aspect warrior squads on ebay a NIB metal will cost you more than the current fine cast model.

There is a reason GW no longer makes new fine cast molds and even its made to order stuff is made from metal. Its because this production method is vastly inferior to plastic injection molds but is a lot cheaper (which is why it was used).

GW has been ever so slowly phasing out fancast models and either just getting rid of the unit/ moving it to legends and stopping selling them or making a brand new plastic kit.
Therefore fine cast units could be replaced by modern plastic kit or they could just go away.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
 
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