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Made in gb
[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex







 Kalamadea wrote:

Even in that case, GW won the lawsuit in the aspect where Chapterhouse was creating complete models that were meant as complete stand-ins.


Not quite. I remember a member of the legal team for Chapterhouse stating that they were convinced that the law very explicitly exonerated Chapterhouse of that, that the jury had not correctly applied the law as it stood (rendering several verdicts on vague feelings of similarity rather than actual legal definitions), and that they were confident those last few scraps which handed GW a technical victory would be overturned on appeal. The only problem was that GW's lawyers managed to put Chapterhouse's owner's house on the line and he blinked and settled out of court shortly before it got there. Which is fair enough, after several years of stress. But let's not pretend that even the minor technical victory GW managed to salvage out of the ashes was something that was necessarily legally correct.

As to this Kickstarter in particular, I've noted elsewhere how Games Workshop are currently being far more liberal with C&D's against 3d printing Patreons/Kickstarters than they are with private resin bitz companies. This is because the hosting company (Patreon/Kickstarter) has no interest in getting sucked into a legal battle and so removes the offending content with no real regard as to whether GW has a legal leg to stand on or not in their accusations of infringement. They don't want the hassle, and so GW gets a free lunch when it comes to cutting out the competition.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/04/22 23:58:57



 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






Thats a shame. Some of those sculpts were dope. Bit like a cross between infinity and 40k.

Huh.. I wonder if someone at higher level GW will look at this and think:

"DerrrDeeDoooDAAA WhY wE NoT tHiNK OF MaKIng NEw ELdarrrrrrrrr DeerrrppppDeeDOOO?"

I mean if people are throwing money at a kickstarted for something that doesnt even exist...WHich may or may not be decent....
What more proof that people will buy well made models of old gak do you bloody need GW? Make the friggin eldar stuff.. Crikey...

This is pitiful to see unfold..

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/23 01:55:17


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




 the_scotsman wrote:
boy, I cant wait for the Tolkien estate to sue Wizards of the Coast for including basically every race from Tolkien's universe in their RPG game system.


You do know the Tolkien estate did in fact sue TSR way back at the start of D&D, and did force a lot of changes, right?
Some were superficial, some were just name changes (Ents->Treants, Hobbits ->Halflings), but this isn't new or unusual behavior by anyone.

Orcs & Goblins were deemed too public domain (the term orc is obscure mythology, but TSR legal did the legwork), same reason GW can't successful nail down Kromlech and company. Same for IG related stuff, too many real-world influences.

These are blatant enough offbrand sculpts, not of eldar, but the specific Aspects, that GW thinks they have a case. Given my instant first impression was 'well, that cease and desist is going to come fast,' I can't really blame them for thinking so.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/23 03:01:21


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
What i'm wondering about, is why they're going after this and not the likes of Victoria or Atlantic or Kromlech. Although obviously i'd prefer they go after nothing.

Gee, maybe, just maybe, they aren't creating 1:1 knockoffs of GW designs, down to the tiniest detail?

 the_scotsman wrote:
boy, I cant wait for the Tolkien estate to sue Wizards of the Coast for including basically every race from Tolkien's universe in their RPG game system.

I don't know if you were frozen in 1921 or something, but here, in 2021, it's precisely what Tolkien estate had been doing for decades now. Ever wondered why WotC uses halflings, not hobbits, why they use generic knockoff elves, not Quenya and Sindarin? Now you know!

In fact your example of Tolkien estate is doubly wrong because GW isn't even one thousandth as litigious, with hundreds of lawsuits to their name and even wikipedia page detailing just the select, biggest ones because it would be far too long with full list.

Oh wait, is it actually not illegal to take ideas someone had 25+ years ago and remake them in a totally different format? That's called a 'free market' you say?

First, ever heard of trademarks? You should read about them, pretty enlightening. Funnily enough, some go back to 1800s and are still protected, never mind 25. You're thinking of copyrights, which is completely different thing (and they last more than 25 years, anyway), it's like mistaking red and blue.

Second, "free market"? You mean, like in China? Because that's about only important country where you can freely steal the work of others and peddle toxic resin at a colossal markup (that is still lapped up despite price barely any lower than originals) - name ONE western country where it would fly.

Because it sure would be weird if they were designed 25+ years ago by someone casting hand-sculpted proofs into molds and manufactured using plastic die-casting.

It would be sure weird if someone went after me if I were to create a computer animation of some rodent a dude drawn with pencil like 100 years ago-- Oh wait

You said something about ""free"" US market?
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




Hi,
I stumbled upon this thread while searching for some details on why the KS was taken down - I'm not really engaged in WH, or Wargaming at all.
But there was and still is a similar kind of copyright dispute between an author and Activision Blizzard, where the Author takes Activision to court:

eurogamer .net/articles/2021-02-04-activision-faces-copyright-lawsuit-over-call-of-duty-character

It's about direct copy of a character from his designs - including using the same female model and makeup artist for promotion and as a template for 3D design of the in-game model.

Some lawyers commented on this and found that there are too many general elements that can't be copyrighted.

I found a few Eldar designs, which look similar, but there are also other alien designs with similar space suits.
So GW might be able to get this taken down in KS, but this is probably still not enough to have merit in court.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Ketara wrote:
I remember a member of the legal team for Chapterhouse stating that (...)


...they would get them next time. Which they didn't, so I don't see how that's more relevant than the actual outcome of the case.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
What i'm wondering about, is why they're going after this and not the likes of Victoria or Atlantic or Kromlech.
They went after someone before. Didn't go so well for them.

Went worse for us...

Went great, GW renamed everything with "unique" names, cut down on model options and started making kits with almost no poseability.
   
Made in gb
Servoarm Flailing Magos




United Kingdom

GunnardVS wrote:
Some lawyers commented on this and found that there are too many general elements that can't be copyrighted.


There's different laws / standards for video games (and digital assets) and physical objects - although I do wonder where STLs sit in that.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




I guess it was fairly easy to get KS to take it down which is why GW pulled the trigger. They won't want the hassle. Easier to lean on KS than go after people directly, it's not specifically because this is any more "infringing" than stuff by other outfits. Just my guess
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I always wonder how GW finds these things out, like there's some eagle scout Dakkanaut (or somewhere sle) who runs to tell GW the moment something like this shows up.


It might be something to do with the KS’ being posted on 40K dominant forums such as Dakka?

And seriously. This one wasn’t exactly subtle, was it? The sculpts are different, sure. But the unit concepts are a straight lift, so it’s hardly a surprise GW hit the “NOPE” switch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
GunnardVS wrote:
Hi,
I stumbled upon this thread while searching for some details on why the KS was taken down - I'm not really engaged in WH, or Wargaming at all.
But there was and still is a similar kind of copyright dispute between an author and Activision Blizzard, where the Author takes Activision to court:

eurogamer .net/articles/2021-02-04-activision-faces-copyright-lawsuit-over-call-of-duty-character

It's about direct copy of a character from his designs - including using the same female model and makeup artist for promotion and as a template for 3D design of the in-game model.

Some lawyers commented on this and found that there are too many general elements that can't be copyrighted.

I found a few Eldar designs, which look similar, but there are also other alien designs with similar space suits.
So GW might be able to get this taken down in KS, but this is probably still not enough to have merit in court.


Court is as much about who can afford the best lawyer.

Here, that’d be GW, hands down.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/23 10:13:53


Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in gb
[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex







 His Master's Voice wrote:

...they would get them next time. Which they didn't, so I don't see how that's more relevant than the actual outcome of the case.


I'll spell it out then:- Games Workshop won a single case, but not by seeing the case through to completion in a fashion that would set pretty much a cast-iron precedent. Therefore if the gentleman in question (Mr Aeterni KS) decided to see it through the courts, there's a perfectly good chance (I remember reading through the law at the time and CH's team had a definite point) that GW might actually lose. So referring to that particular case as if it were proof that GW were legally in the right is not actually particularly accurate. GW merely won the first part of a case, and forced the opposition to bail through another mechanism before the initial judgment could be appropriately tested/verified.

This case will likely never go to court again making the distinction irrelevant, but then again, everyone thought that about Chapterhouse. The thing about firing off an increased rate of C&D's is that it raises the chance somebody will call your bluff and turn out to have a wife/brother/best mate who specialises in IP law or has money to burn or something.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Court is as much about who can afford the best lawyer.

Here, that’d be GW, hands down.


I'm sorry, but did you read GW's original depositions during Chapterhouse? They'd have done better for themselves hiring clowns. There's a reason their head of legal affairs got fired. Competence=/=salary for in-house lawyers.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/04/23 10:23:28



 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps





Warwickscire

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I always wonder how GW finds these things out, like there's some eagle scout Dakkanaut (or somewhere sle) who runs to tell GW the moment something like this shows up.


I'd hazard a guess it's because a good deal of GW staff enjoy miniature wargaming and aren't restricting themselves to GW in their private lives. I remember a few years ago when Kickstarter profiles were more visible, a few GW staffers were spotted. Alan Bligh (RIP) was seen in quite a bunch for example and had backed a myriad boardgame and miniature Kickstarters. Not beyond the realm of imagination for other staffers to quietly indulge in the wider hobby and for one who may have or even be currently working on the Eldar line decide to stop any potential competition. Who knows...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/23 10:28:11


 
   
Made in gb
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller




Billicus wrote:
I guess it was fairly easy to get KS to take it down which is why GW pulled the trigger. They won't want the hassle. Easier to lean on KS than go after people directly, it's not specifically because this is any more "infringing" than stuff by other outfits. Just my guess


Its not "fairly easy" or about not wanting "the hassle", its because KS is a US company and the US introduced the DMCA.

Under DMCA, you issue a take down notice stating you believe it infringes something of yours and the host is obligated to take it down, and then informs the "offender".
The "offender" can file a counter-claim, at which point it either gets reinstated because the original claimant drops it, or it goes to court.

Simples.

So its "trivial" to get KS to take it down, and expensive for individuals or small businesses to fight it.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 zedmeister wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I always wonder how GW finds these things out, like there's some eagle scout Dakkanaut (or somewhere sle) who runs to tell GW the moment something like this shows up.


I'd hazard a guess it's because a good deal of GW staff enjoy miniature wargaming and aren't restricting themselves to GW in their private lives. I remember a few years ago when Kickstarter profiles were more visible, a few GW staffers were spotted. Alan Bligh (RIP) was seen in quite a bunch for example and had backed a myriad boardgame and miniature Kickstarters. Not beyond the realm of imagination for other staffers to quietly indulge in the wider hobby and for one who may have or even be currently working on the Eldar line decide to stop any potential competition. Who knows...


Yeah plus mini-wargaming is a small market niche and its fair easy to track this kind of thing. The Patreons/KS/Stores want customers and its not like some drug ring where everyone is hiding their habit. People get models and share photos of them online and then others ask where they are from etc... Heck even without specifically looking I've found several "GW style" patreons and the like out there. GW could easily find them with a staff member looking for them or, as noted, GW hires a lot of people who like the hobby side of things. Many of them likely own 3D printers of their own and are just as tied into things as we are as customers.

   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Ketara wrote:
So referring to that particular case as if it were proof that GW were legally in the right is not actually particularly accurate. GW merely won the first part of a case, and forced the opposition to bail through another mechanism before the initial judgment could be appropriately tested/verified.


The case had an actual verdict. That's a hell lot more accurate than a 'perfectly good chance'.

I acknowledge that continued proceedings might have resulted in a different legal outcome but, in absence of an appeal, the final verdict currently stands as the only objective data point.
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yep, companies known to own copyright of their product line attack others being stupid enough to make such an obvious copy-and-paste of the said product lines. What a shocker.

We'll see how it's resolved. If KS gives reason to GW (and honestly, they have good chances here), it will be seen as a clear message to others : "don't be stupid and be so obvious".

I really wonder how people can still be seeing this as a surprise. It's not "burning good will", it's to fight the competition selling STL files to print miniatures that are so close to the current Craftworld eldar line that it's obvious it can have an impact on GW's own sales. It's GW defending their turf.

A project creator doing this on such a big platform like KS ? That was the stupid thing to do. Of course there are GW people (or just fans who warn them) monitoring such obvious places.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/23 11:09:09


 
   
Made in pl
Dakka Veteran




Germany

Sarouan wrote:
Yep, companies known to own copyright of their product line attack others being stupid enough to make such an obvious copy-and-paste of the said product lines. What a shocker.

We'll see how it's resolved. If KS gives reason to GW (and honestly, they have good chances here), it will be seen as a clear message to others : "don't be stupid and be so obvious".

I really wonder how people can still be seeing this as a surprise. It's not "burning good will", it's to fight the competition selling STL files to print miniatures that are so close to the current Craftworld eldar line that it's obvious it can have an impact on GW's own sales. Doing this on such a big platform like KS ? That was the stupid thing to do.


The thing is we're confused as to why this particular one and not any of the others that are still standing.
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:


The thing is we're confused as to why this particular one and not any of the others that are still standing.


Because that one is too obvious and easy to attack. That's why.

You attribute to malice the things that are simple stupidity. Here, it's not GW who was stupid. It was the project creator for this on KS.

And I think it's a good reminder for all people selling 3d print files, who tend to think they have nothing to fear if they copy clearly GW's products. Yes, they do. It's not because they weren't attacked before that it won't happen in the future.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/23 11:13:31


 
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




There are probably two things at play here:

1) A trademark owner has to defend their trademarks actively. Otherwise, they lose the protection.
That's also why Lego is currently fighting tooth and nail to prevent "lego" from becoming a common expression - just like it happened to "Jeep".
Their Lawyers send many letters to people who call competing products "Lego bricks" and start lawsuits against vaguely similar looking plastic minis. (They also have a design patent on the Lego people)

2) This KS project is made by a professional who wants to earn money and behaves like Activision - very inspired design, but not 100% identical.

In the end, this design can be described as "Humanoid wearing space suit with elongated vizor helmet" and "Humanoids riding hover bikes"
The ship and tank design look rather generic and seen several times over in some variation - even in Star Wars and even some 80s action figures.
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





I'll add a third reason : they're STL files for 3D printers, not resin miniatures sold. There's a huge difference here - especially in the price needed to print a whole army of "not eldars" when you already own a 3D printer. The darkest part is...well, others independants using that to sell whole set of armies under the mantle (if you already don't care about copyright infringement of what you're copying, it's hard to attack others yourself when your files are used for mass production and sales).

The difference is like Victoria Miniatures. See the price they sell a simple squad of 10 futuristic human troopers. GW plastic cadians are still competitive in comparison. Not the case here. Better kill the chicken in the egg before it hatches...otherwise, it's completely out of control.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/23 11:55:03


 
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




The big question is: is it copyright infringement, though?
Many lawsuits with even more similar characters have been thrown out, because the elements are too generic and can be combined similarly - even with inspiration from a certain design - without infringing.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Probably should've changed how the weapons for the Not Dark Reapers looked.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






GunnardVS wrote:
The big question is: is it copyright infringement, though?
Many lawsuits with even more similar characters have been thrown out, because the elements are too generic and can be combined similarly - even with inspiration from a certain design - without infringing.


That’ll depend which country’s laws apply to be honest.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Fictional wrote:
Billicus wrote:
I guess it was fairly easy to get KS to take it down which is why GW pulled the trigger. They won't want the hassle. Easier to lean on KS than go after people directly, it's not specifically because this is any more "infringing" than stuff by other outfits. Just my guess


Its not "fairly easy" or about not wanting "the hassle", its because KS is a US company and the US introduced the DMCA.

Under DMCA, you issue a take down notice stating you believe it infringes something of yours and the host is obligated to take it down, and then informs the "offender".
The "offender" can file a counter-claim, at which point it either gets reinstated because the original claimant drops it, or it goes to court.

Simples.

So its "trivial" to get KS to take it down, and expensive for individuals or small businesses to fight it.


"It's not that it's "fairly easy", it's that (lists reasons why it's fairly easy)

I mean you just made a slightly more specific version of my point, it's a lot easier to get KS to take down a project than it is to go after people running their own websites


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Probably should've changed how the weapons for the Not Dark Reapers looked.


Most of the aspect warriors stick out a bit as being the most directly "copied" (using that term exceptionally loosely). I've got a feeling they hadn't had quite so much attention put in to them

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/23 14:49:35


 
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

The weapons and the specific cuts to the armor plates seemed to be nearly identical to real Eldar, with the aspects being conceptually very similar. Other than the helmets, I could easily see people confusing these minis with actual GW minis once released. The reason I wanted to buy them is the same reason GW shut them down.

   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





That, and let's be honest : all of their units litterally copied all current Craftworld eldar unit options.

You don't need to be a genius to see their "not scorpion aspect warriors" miniatures as...well, copy-and-paste "proxies" for scorpion aspect warriors in 40k. Including the options of the exarch.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/23 16:02:54


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut






I have seen lots of stuff which felt like a 40k proxy and I have seen very little stuff that felt like copyright infringement. This project was one of few that fell into the felt like copyright infringement category, and guess what, GW acted. I think this is in a different boat of copying compared to Victoria and Kromlech.

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:
In my day, you didn't recognize the greatest heroes of humanity because they had to ride the biggest creatures or be massive in size themselves. No, they had the most magnificent facial hair! If it was good enough for Kurt Helborg and Ludwig Schwarzhelm, it should be good enough for anyone!
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Sarouan wrote:
That, and let's be honest : all of their units litterally copied all current Craftworld eldar unit options.

You don't need to be a genius to see their "not scorpion aspect warriors" miniatures as...well, copy-and-paste "proxies" for scorpion aspect warriors in 40k. Including the options of the exarch.

You don't need to but GW forgets someone is going to get the files to print these anyway and be able to sell them privately, which I more than welcome. Eldar players might be the most entitled people rules wise, but with models they've always suffered. Free market will determine either GW needs to make their own new models or suck it up and pray the Marine sales will make up for it.
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





America

Oh I have no doubt that there will be some privare purchases of these file raging around the internet

Age Quod Agis 
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




GunnardVS wrote:
Hi,
I stumbled upon this thread while searching for some details on why the KS was taken down - I'm not really engaged in WH, or Wargaming at all.
But there was and still is a similar kind of copyright dispute between an author and Activision Blizzard, where the Author takes Activision to court:

eurogamer .net/articles/2021-02-04-activision-faces-copyright-lawsuit-over-call-of-duty-character

It's about direct copy of a character from his designs - including using the same female model and makeup artist for promotion and as a template for 3D design of the in-game model.

Some lawyers commented on this and found that there are too many general elements that can't be copyrighted.

I found a few Eldar designs, which look similar, but there are also other alien designs with similar space suits.
So GW might be able to get this taken down in KS, but this is probably still not enough to have merit in court.


There are some huge differences in what you're referencing- namely an actual person used as a model for the photographs, and real-world soldier uniforms and weapons, which the author can't claim in any way.
Photograph copyright is... not as straightforward as people think it is. That article is vague, but also copyright on a story is not the same as copyright on photos accompanying the story. Especially if Activision hired the same person, dressed her up and did their own shoot. This actually isn't a similar situation at all.

Plus, obviously Activision has more/better lawyer money.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
 
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