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H.B.M.C. wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:I really don't get why people hate special characters so much. Everyone's quick to claim that they play for "fun", but the ones adamant about it are usually the most restrictive...

I don't hate special characters, I hate the trend of them being the only way to modify your army. I hate the way people mix special characters from different armies. I like to make up my own characters for my armies, and find these army-changing special characters take a lot of the character out of 40K (ie. people don't play their Salamanders any more - they play their Vulkan list - it's boring).

Strangely though I find only the newest space marine armies follow that, even then its mainly codex space marines sine they tossed out their codex traits

IG and Tyranids are quite fine without them. Perhaps the DE will follow in suit?

H.B.M.C. wrote:I don't hate special characters, I hate the trend of them being the only way to modify your army. I hate the way people mix special characters from different armies. I like to make up my own characters for my armies, and find these army-changing special characters take a lot of the character out of 40K (ie. people don't play their Salamanders any more - they play their Vulkan list - it's boring).

However, playing lists where the characters don't add anything to the force is just as bad. The Eldar and Chaos codices for instance have no true "character" at all, which makes them down right boring to play at times. Maybe a permutation is needed where there are types of armies within each codex that have unique characteristics by themselves, but then the SC can add in extra buffs. If I had to choose between the Eldar/Chaos style of books vs the SM, IG, BA, SW and Nids, I would take the later any day of the week.

kenshin620 wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:I really don't get why people hate special characters so much. Everyone's quick to claim that they play for "fun", but the ones adamant about it are usually the most restrictive...

Well SC that really change a game up like Vulkan, the Ctan, Mephiston, Swarmlord, etc can cause big problems to people who have no idea how to counter them.

Lots of different units can potentially cause problems for people. Especially for those people playing with codices that are poorly designed and don't always have all their bases covered (like Chaos Daemons or Orks trying to deal with AV14...or mechanized armies in general).

But the only way you can learn how to counter them is by playing against them. You can't just force everyone not to use the stuff you don't like.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I don't hate special characters, I hate the trend of them being the only way to modify your army. I hate the way people mix special characters from different armies. I like to make up my own characters for my armies, and find these army-changing special characters take a lot of the character out of 40K (ie. people don't play their Salamanders any more - they play their Vulkan list - it's boring).

All special characters are is a stat-line with some special rules. But some people just see Vulkan or Eldrad everywhere, they can't use their imagination and just pretend they're different characters altogether. Same thing with mixing characters, it's not really hard to just pretend they're different people with the same rules, especially if they have the same paint scheme. But for some reason some people just can't.

As for Salamander armies, I'd argue that people didn't play Salamander armies before, either...they were just Ultramarines painted green, like every single other codex chapter. Not only do they get their own character now, but he gives you bonuses that actually follow the fluff. You can say "cookie cutter lists", but honestly, if you were following the fluff before then your Salamander army looked the same as every other Salamander army anyway. You took a lot of flamers and meltas, you didn't use hardly anything from Fast Attack, etc. At least now you actually get something for it, which is what I think GW should do more often when writing rules...if fluffy armies don't suck then people have more reason to use them.

And yeah, as Malice pointed out, when you take focus away from the characters or make them bland and boring so no one will use them, you get Chaos Space Marines. That army is just full of character! Not to say that's the reason why CSM suck or anything, it's just one of many things.

Updated the first post, newest batch of rumours dark red as always.

Kroothawk wrote:Updated the first post, newest batch of rumours dark red as always.

Much appreciated. Woo finally theres official non tau jetpacks

Glad to hear about scourges. So long as they aren't horrendously overpriced, they will be amazing.

Jetpacks move in the assault phase right? 12" in movement, 6" in assault? And can fire heavies if they move?

Nvs wrote:Glad to hear about scourges. So long as they aren't horrendously overpriced, they will be amazing.

Jetpacks move in the assault phase right? 12" in movement, 6" in assault? And can fire heavies if they move?

6" in movement, 6" in assault, relentless

Ditto Nvs
If they kept the model cost the same as it is at present, would that be effectively worth it. Am assuming so
Apologies for the niave question

If the Scourge did move to fast attack that is just sick. There will actually be a decent unit in every part of the force org. I'm even more excited!

Any idea of the point value for Warriors/Wyches/Archons?

Even if there is it can't be mentioned Sigmatron
such things are frowned upon

Best answer you are likely to get is, Yes I have an idea, or nope, not a scooby doo!

Kroot gave the point value of the Raider in a round about way. Just curious if it was up or the same.

Maybe express the points in the form of a function? (curse you pre cal!)

kenshin620 wrote:IG and Tyranids are quite fine without them. Perhaps the DE will follow in suit?

Yeah but how many do you see without them?

Swarmlord and Doom of Malantai have become two virtually mandatory non-special Special Characters. When a Special Character becomes a no brainer option, it ceases to be a 'Special' Character.

Sidstyler wrote:All special characters are is a stat-line with some special rules. But some people just see Vulkan or Eldrad everywhere, they can't use their imagination and just pretend they're different characters altogether. Same thing with mixing characters, it's not really hard to just pretend they're different people with the same rules, especially if they have the same paint scheme. But for some reason some people just can't.

So, "just use counts as" is your best answer? You shouldn't require characters at all to modify your list. Lists should have options that allow for that or, at worst, generic choices (like how the SM Captain in the Marine Codex allows a Bike army without being a special character). Having Sub-Lists is a better solution than having characters. And special characters are more than a statline and some special rules - they're also a model, with history, fluff, personality, motivations - all of which are dictated. If you want to bring a Vulkan army, you're always going to have Vulkan at your head. You can never field a Salamander army, using Salamander specific special rules, without always having this one guy there to lead them. It only gets worse in the Dark Angel Codex, where once before you could field Deathwing and Ravenwing armies with no issue, but now they must always have Belial or Sammael at their head.

Sidstyler wrote:As for Salamander armies, I'd argue that people didn't play Salamander armies before, either...they were just Ultramarines painted green, like every single other codex chapter. Not only do they get their own character now, but he gives you bonuses that actually follow the fluff. You can say "cookie cutter lists", but honestly, if you were following the fluff before then your Salamander army looked the same as every other Salamander army anyway. You took a lot of flamers and meltas, you didn't use hardly anything from Fast Attack, etc. At least now you actually get something for it, which is what I think GW should do more often when writing rules...if fluffy armies don't suck then people have more reason to use them.

Two points here:

1. Sallies had a list in 3rd Ed, so people have been playing Salamander armies. The 4th Ed 'Dex even had traits for them (as horrifically flawed as the Traits system was...).
2. You should not need a character in order to gain the benefits of following the fluff. Fluff and power should be synonymous. They should be congruent. The more fluffy your army, the more powerful it should be, and vice versa. No specific character should be required for your to follow your army's fluff and gain the benefits there of.

Sidstyler wrote:And yeah, as Malice pointed out, when you take focus away from the characters or make them bland and boring so no one will use them, you get Chaos Space Marines. That army is just full of character! Not to say that's the reason why CSM suck or anything, it's just one of many things.

Remove the Special Characters from the 'Chaos' Codex and that book is still dead and lifeless. The SC's add nothing to that book, nor do they take anything away. All they do is provide a good example of Codex Creep (compare Typhus - a mother fething Herald of Nurgle Terminator Sorcerer Lord - to Chaplain Cassius and Chief Librarian Mephiston; see a problem there?).

H.B.M.C. wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:IG and Tyranids are quite fine without them. Perhaps the DE will follow in suit?

Yeah but how many do you see without them?

Swarmlord and Doom of Malantai have become two virtually mandatory non-special Special Characters. When a Special Character becomes a no brainer option, it ceases to be a 'Special' Character.

Thats not the point I was making. I was talking about list changes. Taking Doom does not make zoans troops for example

And thank God for that...

H.B.M.C. wrote:And thank God for that...

Quick! Break out the Culexus Assassins!

Yeah but how many do you see without them?

Swarmlord and Doom of Malantai have become two virtually mandatory non-special Special Characters. When a Special Character becomes a no brainer option, it ceases to be a 'Special' Character.

Swarmlord and Doom are hardly "mandatory". If people in your area don't use anything else then they must be really bad at list-writing, because there are so many other viable builds without them.

So, "just use counts as" is your best answer?

Well, yeah. It's a much easier and way more reasonable solution than trying to force people not to use them, or trying in vain to convince GW that they shouldn't be making money on the SC models.

I agree though, you shouldn't "require" characters to field special lists, but that's how GW designed the rules. Probably since no one would pay $20+ for a single figure if all it was going to do was collect dust on a shelf and look pretty.

But yeah, like I said that's how GW designed the rules, and it's not going to change anytime soon. So the best option in my opinion, if you want to keep playing the game, is just deal with it, and that's how I deal with it. Instead of raging because Vulkan is leading an army of Ultramarines, I just assume it's an Ultramarine character and make up my own name for him. Smurfy McNotvulkan.

Sidstyler wrote:
I agree though, you shouldn't "require" characters to field special lists, but that's how GW designed the rules. Probably since no one would pay $20+ for a single figure if all it was going to do was collect dust on a shelf and look pretty.

Like lizardmen or skaven SC?

Anyways I think we're going off topic now

Ironically, Dark Eldar were actually the first modern (post-2nd ed) list to have the "special character changes your army type" mechanic (hello, Lelith!). That being said, it isn't a bad mechanic-- in mu opinion, it certainly beats the "binder full of White Dwarf clippings" or "choose your advantages and fake disadvantage" system that was (over)used during 3.5th and 4th edition.

Fetterkey wrote:Ironically, Dark Eldar were actually the first modern (post-2nd ed) list to have the "special character changes your army type" mechanic (hello, Lelith!). That being said, it isn't a bad mechanic-- in mu opinion, it certainly beats the "binder full of White Dwarf clippings" or "choose your advantages and fake disadvantage" system that was (over)used during 3.5th and 4th edition.

Mind = Blown

JUST AS PLANNED!

Scourges
Seem to get some kind of haywire grenade launcher and a jetpack like the Tau

Scourges moving to Fast Attack is a logical move.
But haywire grenade launchers seem to be a joke, right?

wuestenfux wrote:

Scourges
Seem to get some kind of haywire grenade launcher and a jetpack like the Tau

Scourges moving to Fast Attack is a logical move.
But haywire grenade launchers seem to be a joke, right?

I know right? hmmm....should we shoot our Str8 *lance* weapon or a haywire nade? It may be a cheap upgrade for use when you give them splinter cannons maybe.
But yeah, I would take the Dark lance over the haywire nade launcher any day. Unless the haywire nade got a serious boost.

Well, depending on whether the launcher are the same as normal haywire grenades, I'd actually want those over Dark lances. Instead of glancing on a 4+ on armor 12 and beyond they would glance on a 2+ and pen on a 6, less chance to pen but higher chance of not doing anything at all to whatever your shooting at.

Aren't Dark Lances still considered a Heavy, or will the 'Jetpack' rule make the unit Relentless. Now, if we can get Relentless DE with Dark Lances, I'm all ears.

Sarigar wrote:Aren't Dark Lances still considered a Heavy, or will the 'Jetpack' rule make the unit Relentless. Now, if we can get Relentless DE with Dark Lances, I'm all ears.

...

It is in the rulebook you know.

David Bowie in Space? Blast, I just may have to check this codex out.

If it looks anything like the one on the left, I'll be pissed.

The new 'dex eventually allows to make a Harlie army,
based on Harlies in Venoms and Wyches as troops.

Rumor was that Harlies wouldn't have access to the Venom, only certain units from the rest of the codex would.