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Pyriel- wrote:
Even that, a pen hit doesnt automatically translate to a destroyed tank, only 1/3 of all pen hits get destroyed.
So this 280p unit needs to whack a lot of armour and do so every turn in order to ever earn back those points.

While Pen = Destroyed 1/3 of the time, it also = not shooting (at least not shooting its primary weapon) 5/6 of the results, and if you are so lucky to get that 1/6 result that lets them still shoot you (unlikely granted you still have another potential pen/autoglance) that means the damn thing will never move again, and Idk what marines you are playing, but you cant get a LR for under 200 points, if you killed a LR and like 3 marines, you've more the linkely made your points back, and then you get to start shooting infantry with the guns...

Also, one thing I have seen brought up a few times yet nothing really solid...

Do Psycannons, Incinirators, GK version of Smite and Blessed Bolter Rounds still ignore invul? If so, I'd be rather upset if my 240 pt Vect got 1 shotted by a stray Psycannon shot, leaving me with nothing but a potential coversave (but 2xT ing me and piercing my armor/invul at the same time). Also, if Psycannons ignore invul saves, they will WRECK DE (Flickerfields are now useless!).

Jus Saying
~DAR

And, the background material in general shows us just how much more 'powerful' an Astartes is compared to a regular human. This is very well represented here.

You "forgot" to add the funny fact that "your" legion marines on steroids are facing wheenie toy soldier marines. Strange that not all astartes are equally powerful...

If you want "real-life" marine rules then go use GWs movie marine rule set.



Besides, how about a game vs my vulkan army with 30 SS/TH terminators in it "counting as" tyranids?
You know there are no set rules for the tyranid biomutations, anything goes and who can say the tyranids havent evolved those nice 2+ and 3+ inv saves on their warriors?
I would love to face an invented anything goes "alpha legion" psycher army with my hammer terminator flying warriors (I would hardly find much players willing to face that "dream" now would I?)

But I dont think so. I´m not a kid anymore and tend to be a whee bit more serious about my tabletop fluff when I play a game so no, "anything does certainly not go" for me thankyou but I do congratulate you on having such a wonderful gaming group where "anything goes"...well except the forgeworld book rules of course, those are obviously far, far to weird to be accepted by that otherwise so extremely open minded gaming group.
lol




Automatically Appended Next Post:

While Pen = Destroyed 1/3 of the time, it also = not shooting (at least not shooting its primary weapon) 5/6 of the results, and if you are so lucky to get that 1/6 result that lets them still shoot you (unlikely granted you still have another potential pen/autoglance) that means the damn thing will never move again, and Idk what marines you are playing, but you cant get a LR for under 200 points, if you killed a LR and like 3 marines, you've more the linkely made your points back, and then you get to start shooting infantry with the guns...

Hmm, you have some good points there. I´m starting to be swayed into thinking those psycannons might actually do the AV trick after all.
Thanks

Pyriel- wrote:Besides, how about a game vs my vulkan army with 30 SS/TH terminators in it "counting as" tyranids?
You know there are no set rules for the tyranid biomutations, anything goes and who can say the tyranids havent evolved those nice 2+ and 3+ inv saves on their warriors?
I would love to face an invented anything goes "alpha legion" psycher army with my hammer terminator flying warriors (I would hardly find much players willing to face that "dream" now would I?)

One, you're a bit over the top.
Two, is your tyranid army scratch built to properly rep all of the 'modifications' and follows the rules of 'Counts As'. If so, then yes, it would get to play. Is it just a proxy list? No.

Alpharius isn't saying proxy. He's saying full-on Counts As with everything properly and consistently rep'd. Geeze.

Pyriel strikes me as the kinda guy who couldn't enjoy movies like Live Free or Die Hard because of the kid hacking into national security mainframes in about 30 seconds.

hehe, nah, I go see movies with an open mind, it is rather expected to see CIA mainframes being hacken by little kids and action heroes taking bullets and blows to the head that would put an elephant down.

Tabletop fluff on the other hand is serious business...very serious indeed


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alpharius isn't saying proxy. He's saying full-on Counts As with everything properly and consistently rep'd. Geeze.

You obviously missed the sarcasm.

Herelet me add a couple of:
:p
for you to ease things up a bit.

Pyriel- wrote:But I dont think so. I´m not a kid anymore and tend to be a whee bit more serious about my tabletop fluff when I play a game so no, "anything does certainly not go" for me thankyou but I do congratulate you on having such a wonderful gaming group where "anything goes"...well except the forgeworld book rules of course, those are obviously far, far to weird to be accepted by that otherwise so extremely open minded gaming group.

This discussion is generally off topic within the context of this thread. These things tend to get horribly long and jumbled as-is with more rumors coming out, could we please take clearly off-topic discussions to a different thread?

Pyriel- wrote:
Besides, how about a game vs my vulkan army with 30 SS/TH terminators in it "counting as" tyranids?
You know there are no set rules for the tyranid biomutations, anything goes and who can say the tyranids havent evolved those nice 2+ and 3+ inv saves on their warriors?
I would love to face an invented anything goes "alpha legion" psycher army with my hammer terminator flying warriors (I would hardly find much players willing to face that "dream" now would I?)

As long as your Vulkan Army with 30 SS/TH isn't using rules for SS/TH and rules for Tyranids, and as long as the models you are using as "Counts as" are of suitible size and wargear distinction, I see no real reason why your army would be any less awesome then Hulksmash's Mechanicus Daemons army!

You can't run around calling a Guardsman a Lord of Change (too small) or a Forge World Bloodthirster (Anngrath?) as an Ork Nob (Too big) but if things are proper size, then the actual fluff shouldn't matter.

Just pretend your are playing against GKs and let ur Opponent pretend his army is whatever he wants it to be... GW included the "Counts as" rule to prevent people from being "Imagination Police".

Codex Rules are balanced for play, as long as your are stictly adhere to a ruleset from a codex (which is presumedly balanced, even if actual results vary...) then really it shouldn't matter what your opponent brings to the table, cause the table is for the GAME, even if the kid shows up with chess pieces, either you beat him so you are the "Tactically (or luck) superior general with superior style" or you are the "Tactically (or luck) inferior general with superior style", either way, you've got style... no need to rub your wallet size, free time to build/paint, or ability to have concurrent opinions on the backstory of your toy soldiers with a company that openly admits its "fluff bias and inconsistancy" in your opponents face as well.

If alpharius wants to pretend his toy soldiers are Alpha Legion, while using the rules for GKs (which may support his playstyle more then the current CSM codex), there really isnt any reason to not let him. Cause in the end, aren't they all just Toy Soldiers? ((Besides, people who do this, get to take advantage of the Newer rules/game mechanics while not actually purchasing any new minis, which then lets GW know to update more codexes more frequently and provide new models for people who would like to buy them, but find them selves waiting 12 years for a codex update and when they finally get it, the most interesting unit in the codex doesn't have a model yet!!! ((GOD DAMN WRACKS!!!!!!!!!))

~DAR

Alpharius wrote:
Yeah, unfortunately the Real World called and there were many irrational gamers on the line with bizarre anti-FW phobias, aka, "If it Ain't GW, I Ain't Playing Against It!" Syndrome!

Still, a VERY good idea - and one that I'll be looking into - thanks!

yeah, there's always a chance that you'll run into people that don't want to play against FW stuff (see the log of bimonthly YMDC threads on the subject) but i'd probably put their number at about the same as those who will vurp at the thought of grey knight chaos armies (although they're probably two different subsets of gamers). i'd personally recommend that if you do go down this route not to use FW only vehicles like the aquilla lander and the 7" blast barrages; stick to stuff that has a direct equivalent in a codex force.

one benefit to using the badab stuff is that you don't have to worry about mech armies as you'll have IG tank squadrons and SM dev squads to augment your force. the only "downsides" i can remember is that i don't recall seeing terminator squads there (the assault marines lose their jump packs but gain combat shields and a transport option). otherwise, you get conscripts/vets/infantry squads (in their chaosy equivalent), IG tanks, sm tact and assault squads, devs, abhumans/mutants, and HQ's chosen from both sets.

Both Jokaero and Daemonhosts are justified in the fluff with the normal "distasteful but necessary" cop out

I think I will ignore many of the rumors in this thread as they seem like a joke more than anything. They go along the lines of Blood Angels carrying lasguns as their major weapon into combat instead of boltguns. While technically possible if I told you that you just wouldn't believe it.

Bestial Fury, a rumor dude who has corroborated much of what Augustine has posted, on Karamazov:

He has throne of judgement but he is infantry. It buffs him with attacks (4), strength (5), toughness(5) and artificer armor. Also has Multi Melta, Master Crafted power sword. No inv save. Has orbital strike that he is allowed to place on top of friendlies, even in combat (hmmm tarpit cheap henchies then blast bad and good guys with pie plate). He is an IC so attach to squads but can't get in transports as he is too large.

---
Forgot, has relentless

EDIT: He later clarified that Karamazov is NOT an MC, so no 2d6 for Penetration, but you can attach him to squads which sounds pretty cool.

And Augustine on the Brotherhood Champion:

Brotherhood Champions are like a chaplain crossed with an emperors champion. In combat they have a series of combat stances that they can chose from.

grimz wrote:Can anyone explain Crusaders to me?

They look awesome, simple as that.

You can't run around calling a Guardsman a Lord of Change (too small) or a Forge World Bloodthirster (Anngrath?) as an Ork Nob (Too big) but if things are proper size, then the actual fluff shouldn't matter.

I see.
How is this for an analogue then:

I want to play "true power/fluff" salamanders so I do an Alpharius and take the nid codex and use it as an SM stand in.

I use 6 fully decked out tyrant guards and count them as space marines (since those are imo on the power levels real tabletop space marines ought to have.
I use two decked out tyrants as counts as dreadnouhts...again for the power/fluff level.

I use fleshborer gaunts as induced imperial guardsmen/cannonfodder.

I use warriors as counts as scouts, again for the power level of true tabletop scouts.

All shooty biomorph weaponry is just counting as bolters etc.


The whole army consists of 20 scouts, 6 marines, 2 dreads and a HQ but uses nid rules to represent induced guard and SM power levels.



Now would anyone have a problem with that tyranid army being used as a true fluff space marine army?
If so then why not simply pretend all my 6 marines are tyrant guards, the 2 dreads are tyrants etc etc.
The perfect proxy army, fully following the codex rulebooks but oh so wrong it gets when my "marines" meet someone elses marines with my being 10 times as tough/powerful.

I would never allow that and neither would I expect anyone else to allow me to bring in such a contraption onto the tabletop.
Ergo my opinion stands and bear in mind that it is just an opinion (you all do what you want yourselves), I would not allow a cont as alpha legion army using disproportionately powerful units to say, my own despite them being based on a codex.
Its all in the personal taste really so lets leave it be as an "agreeing not to agree" issue.

Because that's something nobody does and is a straw man.

He has throne of judgement but he is infantry. It buffs him with attacks (4), strength (5), toughness(5) and artificer armor. Also has Multi Melta, Master Crafted power sword. No inv save. Has orbital strike that he is allowed to place on top of friendlies, even in combat (hmmm tarpit cheap henchies then blast bad and good guys with pie plate). He is an IC so attach to squads but can't get in transports as he is too large.

---
Forgot, has relentless

The guy is an old grandpa, not particularily tough looking sitting in an open chair with no inv force field.
How hard would it be to pop him with one aimed laspistol shot.
Where did he get those 4 wounds and 5 toughness from?
lol

Plus your guardsmen will run away if your marines die

More from Bestial on Karamazov:

Also confers re-roll of failed pinning/morale tests for units within 12 inches. And can himself choose or fail morale/pinning tests. Has power weapon. MM is master crafted power sword.

Was also incorrect on attacks. Attacks=3

(On Karamazov)
So in other words he is worse than he is now? He will have less strength and no invulnerable save. I didn't see a mention of Relentless so he will have a hard time firing that Multi-melta if he moves. What's his poitn and why will he be in a Grey Knight codex since he was Ordo Hereticus.

Bestial added that's he's relentless in his first mention of it. The big point is that 1) He can join units (perhaps units with Storm Shield-bearing Acolytes to take wounds for him - fitting considering his character) and 2) He has a LOT of wounds with a good save, so he can do some soaking of his own. Maybe put him in said unit with a few Jokaero/Techpriest Weaponsmiths and give him a 36" Rending Multimelta?

Codex: Grey Knight embraces all Ordos. They are an Organization of Tolerance, well known for their cooperation with other organizations and their very public presence as the psychic UN of the Imperium.

Pyriel- wrote:
The whole army consists of 20 scouts, 6 marines, 2 dreads and a HQ but uses nid rules to represent induced guard and SM power levels.

Now would anyone have a problem with that tyranid army being used as a true fluff space marine army?
If so then why not simply pretend all my 6 marines are tyrant guards, the 2 dreads are tyrants etc etc.
The perfect proxy army, fully following the codex rulebooks but oh so wrong it gets when my "marines" meet someone elses marines with my being 10 times as tough/powerful.
.

Proxy does not equal counts as. Your models are the wrong size and wrong base size for the units they are representing and the units aren't WYSIWYG (P47), i.e. consistently rep'd across your army for what they are representing.

An Alpha Legion marine is the same base size and profile as a GK. A scout is not the same base size as a warrior.

Way to completely misunderstand how Count As works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

andrewm9 wrote:(On Karamazov)
So in other words he is worse than he is now?

Unpossible.

Maybe you'd like to move the count-as discussion elsewhere
It's kind of annoying when rumors are constantly dripping out but people have to dig through Pyriel's inability to have fun to read about them.

Anyway, Marshal about the Brotherhood Champion...

Brotherhood Champion:
74441*10 2+
Infantry, Character
Artificer, Frag, Krack, Iron Halo, storm bolter
Anointed Blade: Nemesis Force Sword, re roll failed wounds.

Titans Herald: AKA Litanies of Hate.

* The perfect Warrior (instead of an attack value, makes special cc attack ability):
Sword Storm: Makes one A on each model in B2B.
Blade Shield: Does not attack, but re roll failed saves.
Rapier Strike: Makes D3 Attacks (+1 if charged) at I10 but must be against an IC or MC.

Powers:
HammerHand
Heroic Sacrifice


100pts Base
Upgrades:
Digital Weapons 5pts
Empyriean Mines 10pts
Psybolt ammo 5pts

Seems gimmicky :/
I was hoping that it would be a Paladin-level HQ.

Just to reiterate this stat line for discussion;

Lord Draigo: WS 7 BS 6 S 5 T 5 W 4 I 5 A 5 Ld 10 Sv 2+ Points 275
Wargear: Titan Sword (str 10 vs demons and psykers), Storm Shield, Frag, Krak, Psyk-out grenades
Options: ?
Special Rules: Lord of Titan (take Paladins as troops), Psychic Mastery 2, Eternal Warrior
Psychic Powers: Hammer Hand, Psychic Communion, Cleansing Flame



Holy gak what a beat stick.

Term armor: Check
Frag Grenades IN Term armor: Check
5 ore more attacks base?: Check
Good inv. save? Check
T 5 or higher? Check
Eternal Warrior? Check
Force multiplies? Check


Yikes, he's nasty.



Oh and;

Nemesis Dreadknight (MC): WS 5 BS ? S 7 T 7 W 4 I ? A 3 Sv 2+/4++ 130 Points
Wargear: Heavy Psycannon, Super Incinerator, 2 close combat weapons.
Options: Personal Teleporter +75 Points
Special Rules: Monsterous Creature, Deepstrike, Psychic Mastery 1
Psychic Powers: Hammer Hand, Holocaust.


Is this dude an auto include at that price or what? That's farking nuts.

I doubt Termies will be a troop choice.

Draigo: He's also packing Cleansing Flame, aka the "punch hordes in the mouth before they've even had the chance to swing at you" power.
Dreadknight: I don't think anyone's clarified what comes on a vanilla Dreadknight. If it's got the whole loadout base then yes, that's a hell of a unit.

Also, some details on Grand Master Mordrack:

Dagmire wrote:200 points
6 6 4 4 4 5 4 10 2+
this is the guy that comes with ghosts as his body guard.
Deep stikes like drop pods do, first turn landings ect
and give the D3 dice rolls to improve units

Marshal Augustine wrote:him and his squad will DS with NO scatter.
Stats are accurate.

Stealth for the Ghost Knights. (one wounded terminators)

Roll D3 for each unsaved wound he suffers. If = or greater than his remaining wounds, another knight shows up and joins the unit.
32pts per ghost minimum of 1 and max 10

Can have Nemesis Force Halberds for free, or nemesis deamon hammers for free.
Falchions for +5 per model.
Nemesis Warding Stave.
Psybolt ammo
Any model may make any weapon Master Crafted at +10.
Brotherhood banner +25.

Termies ARE a troops choice

No options on Draigo. He comes as-is (which is still pretty sick)

Tanus wrote:Termies ARE a troops choice

No options on Draigo. He comes as-is (which is still pretty sick)

Is he an IC though?

Vhalyar wrote:

Tanus wrote:Termies ARE a troops choice

No options on Draigo. He comes as-is (which is still pretty sick)

Is he an IC though?

Yes, he is

Tanus wrote:

Vhalyar wrote:

Tanus wrote:Termies ARE a troops choice

No options on Draigo. He comes as-is (which is still pretty sick)

Is he an IC though?

Yes, he is

Is that DreadKnight snip from Warseer from you? Accurate?

The more I hear about this Codex, the more excited I get!

Especially for the "Counts As" possibilities!

And really, since everything is going to be properly modeled, WYSIWYG at all, the only objection Pyriel- has is... the color of the marines?

At this point, even he would have to admit to being more than a little 'unreasonable'...

So, April release for the Codex still on track, right?

Dreadknights are insanely good. I assume that the wargear is actually wargear options, i.e. no 2 CCW if taking heavy psycannon, etc. If he gets all of that then he's basically a souped-up Khorne-Tzeentch-Nurgle Prince for fewer points and a massive shooting attack.

Monsternator spam seems to be the 'no brainer' build based on the rumors.