GK rumours - (blurry) Dreadknight pics on pg 19

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**pretre**

AgeOfEgos wrote:
Nemesis Dreadknight (MC): WS 5 BS ? S 7 T 7 W 4 I ? A 3 Sv 2+/4++ 130 Points
Wargear: Heavy Psycannon, Super Incinerator, 2 close combat weapons.
Options: Personal Teleporter +75 Points
Special Rules: Monsterous Creature, Deepstrike, Psychic Mastery 1
Psychic Powers: Hammer Hand, Holocaust.

Is this dude an auto include at that price or what? That's farking nuts.

Is that the 30" move Personal Teleporter? "Oh Hai! I'm a MC and I'm behind you!"

**AgeOfEgos**

sourclams wrote:Dreadknights are insanely good. I assume that the wargear is actually wargear options, i.e. no 2 CCW if taking heavy psycannon, etc. If he gets all of that then he's basically a souped-up Khorne-Tzeentch-Nurgle Prince for fewer points and a massive shooting attack.

Monsternator spam seems to be the 'no brainer' build based on the rumors.

No joke. I hate to be 'that' guy that starts spouting off builds from rumors....but if those stats/costs are correct for 615 points you can have 3 of those guys jump packing (moving 30" once a game) around the board.

**BrassScorpion**

Dreadknights are insanely good.

It may turn out to be insanely large, whatever GW actually has decided to call it. This new walker should be the next large kit for 40K, a mini-Titan. Hopefully the price is not more than the Stormraven.

**Vhalyar**

BrassScorpion wrote:
Dreadknights are insanely good.
It may turn out to be insanely large, whatever GW actually has decided to call it. This new walker should be the next large kit for 40K, a mini-Titan. Hopefully the price is not more than the Stormraven.

Really? What would you compare it to, in terms of size then? A Trygon in height?

**pretre**

Vhalyar wrote:
BrassScorpion wrote:
Dreadknights are insanely good.
It may turn out to be insanely large, whatever GW actually has decided to call it. This new walker should be the next large kit for 40K, a mini-Titan. Hopefully the price is not more than the Stormraven.

Really? What would you compare it to, in terms of size then? A Trygon in height?

A trygon sized, large oval base walker would be sweet! Intimidating as crud and hard to gain cover for (especially considering MC rules).

**Leggy**

On the face of it, all the cool toys seem far too undercosted. Do people think this could be a synergy thing? ie the fancy stuff is cheap, because the scoring units are so expensive you'll have very few. Or has everyone agreed the cheapness is bad codex writing, designed to sell the new army?

**ThirdUltra**

Alpharius wrote:The more I hear about this Codex, the more excited I get!

Especially for the "Counts As" possibilities!

And really, since everything is going to be properly modeled, WYSIWYG at all, the only objection Pyriel- has is... the color of the marines?

At this point, even he would have to admit to being more than a little 'unreasonable'...

So, April release for the Codex still on track, right?

Totally agree here; having a bunch of agents/saboteurs/cultists centered around a small core of some crack Alpha Legionaires sounds enticing.
Would be easy to do it properly for WYSIWYG.

So, with all this great information, is there an actual date for the release yet or are we still hazy on it....we know it's April and all, but when in April.....early, late....?

**AgeOfEgos**

Leggy wrote:On the face of it, all the cool toys seem far too undercosted. Do people think this could be a synergy thing? ie the fancy stuff is cheap, because the scoring units are so expensive you'll have very few. Or has everyone agreed the cheapness is bad codex writing, designed to sell the new army?

PA GKs are only 20 points each. So;

Lord I MUST BREAK YOU Drago 275

5 Paladins 275
Land Raider 250

10 GK in rhino 240
10 GK in rhino 240

GK in Matrix Machine of Death w/ Teleporter 205
GK in Matrix Machine of Death w/ Teleporter 205
GK in Matrix Machine of Death w/ Teleporter 205

That's 1415. Just add 300 pts worth of more AT wherever it's cheap (maybe an Inq. Henchmen retinue). Inqs are only 25 points....so if the mini-oblits are cheap you could form a nice fire unit with that then add a Vindicare.

**JohnHwangDD**

Pyriel- wrote: I want to play "true power/fluff" salamanders so I do an Alpharius and take the nid codex and use it as an SM stand in.

I use 6 fully decked out tyrant guards and count them as space marines (since those are imo on the power levels real tabletop space marines ought to have.

I use two decked out tyrants as counts as dreadnouhts...again for the power/fluff level.

I use fleshborer gaunts as induced imperial guardsmen/cannonfodder.

I use warriors as counts as scouts, again for the power level of true tabletop scouts.

All shooty biomorph weaponry is just counting as bolters etc.

Now would anyone have a problem with that tyranid army being used as a true fluff space marine army?

If so then why not simply pretend all my 6 marines are tyrant guards, the 2 dreads are tyrants etc etc.

The perfect proxy army, fully following the codex rulebooks but oh so wrong it gets when my "marines" meet someone elses marines with my being 10 times as tough/powerful.

That won't work as SM, but I could see it as a *Chaos* Marine army of sorts. My primary objection is that you can't shrink a MC down to a 25mm or 40mm base just because you want it to be a "Space Marine".

If your Tyrant Guards are Uber-Big Possessed Chaos Space Marines, OK.

If your Tyrants are Uber-Big Possessed Chaos Daemon Princes / Terminator / Lords / whatever, OK. They are NOT Dreads, because they don't have an AV. They will have to look more fleshy than machine.

Gaunts are OK as Guardsmen - similar size, base & stats.

Warriors as Big Chaos Marines, OK. NOT Scouts, because Scouts just don't get that big on the tabletop.

Weapons as Chaos Bolters whatnots, OK. You don't get to change the profile to R24" S4 AP5 Rapid Fire, tho.

There's no such thing as a "true Fluff" Space Marines army, as your model scales make zero sense when it's a given that 40k Space Marines are 28mm tall on a 25mm round base.

I have no problem with the power level, but it would need to be modeled properly.

I could see this done via loyalist Machine Cult TechMarines using augmented systems like the Throne of Judgement, backed by masses of Drone servitors.

**pretre**

AgeOfEgos wrote:
That's 1415. Just add 300 pts worth of more AT wherever it's cheap (maybe an Inq. Henchmen retinue). Inqs are only 25 points....so if the mini-oblits are cheap you could form a nice fire unit with that then add a Vindicare.

25 models at 1500 points.

**JohnHwangDD**

AgeOfEgos wrote:
Nemesis Dreadknight (MC): WS 5 BS ? S 7 T 7 W 4 I ? A 3 Sv 2+/4++ 130 Points
Wargear: Heavy Psycannon, Super Incinerator, 2 close combat weapons.
Options: Personal Teleporter +75 Points
Special Rules: Monsterous Creature, Deepstrike, Psychic Mastery 1
Psychic Powers: Hammer Hand, Holocaust.

That's pretty cool for 200 pts. And you can take 3 of them?!? Neat. I wonder what the model will look like.

**AgeOfEgos**

pretre wrote:
AgeOfEgos wrote:
That's 1415. Just add 300 pts worth of more AT wherever it's cheap (maybe an Inq. Henchmen retinue). Inqs are only 25 points....so if the mini-oblits are cheap you could form a nice fire unit with that then add a Vindicare.

25 models at 1500 points.

25 scoring models, 5 of which are two wound Terms in a LR
3 Super Daemon Princes jumping around the board

Then 435 points left to play with...

**bhsman**

Karamazov and Coteaz as HQs, Henchmen as troops, Dreadknights as Heavies and Stormraven as FA.

Oh hey I just made an army to represent the human forces from Avatar.

**pretre**

bhsman wrote:Karamazov and Coteaz as HQs, Henchmen as troops, Dreadknights as Heavies and Stormraven as FA.

Oh hey I just made an army to represent the human forces from Avatar.

Reeeeeeaaaaccching.

**Leggy**

AgeOfEgos wrote:

That's 1415. Just add 300 pts worth of more AT wherever it's cheap (maybe an Inq. Henchmen retinue). Inqs are only 25 points....so if the mini-oblits are cheap you could form a nice fire unit with that then add a Vindicare.

I'm guessing Vindicares will be best (although cba to run numbers until we have more info). Thats 11/12 chance of hitting, PLUS average pen. of 17, PLUS AP1, PLUS stealth PLUS infiltrate AND if your opponent skips vehicles, they still boot backside vs everything but the most extreme horde (although I honestly can't think of a opposition build where sniping out special and heavy weapons wont come in useful)

**warboss**

AgeOfEgos wrote:Just to reiterate this stat line for discussion;

Lord Draigo: WS 7 BS 6 S 5 T 5 W 4 I 5 A 5 Ld 10 Sv 2+ Points 275
Wargear: Titan Sword (str 10 vs demons and psykers), Storm Shield, Frag, Krak, Psyk-out grenades
Options: ?
Special Rules: Lord of Titan (take Paladins as troops), Psychic Mastery 2, Eternal Warrior
Psychic Powers: Hammer Hand, Psychic Communion, Cleansing Flame

Holy gak what a beat stick.

Term armor: Check
Frag Grenades IN Term armor: Check
5 ore more attacks base?: Check
Good inv. save? Check
T 5 or higher? Check
Eternal Warrior? Check
Force multiplies? Check

Yikes, he's nasty.

sweeeet! i think i've found my inquisitor rex stand in for apoc games as he has the sword/shield loadout! (unless of course his official model looks even more awesome than rex!) do the paladin squads have the option to upgrade more than one guy to a heavy weapon like a psycannon?

**bhsman**

pretre wrote:Reeeeeeaaaaccching.

Someone's going to do it, and it'll rule when they do.

**shrike**

AgeOfEgos wrote:Just to reiterate this stat line for discussion;

Lord Draigo: WS 7 BS 6 S 5 T 5 W 4 I 5 A 5 Ld 10 Sv 2+ Points 275
Wargear: Titan Sword (str 10 vs demons and psykers), Storm Shield, Frag, Krak, Psyk-out grenades
Options: ?
Special Rules: Lord of Titan (take Paladins as troops), Psychic Mastery 2, Eternal Warrior
Psychic Powers: Hammer Hand, Psychic Communion, Cleansing Flame

Holy gak what a beat stick.

Term armor: Check
Frag Grenades IN Term armor: Check
5 ore more attacks base?: Check
Good inv. save? Check
T 5 or higher? Check
Eternal Warrior? Check
Force multiplies? Check

Yikes, he's nasty.

So he's basically lysander, with frag & krak grenades, +1T & A and can have 2-wound termies as troops?!7
but why have hammerhand if you already have a S10 CCW?

**ph34r**

Alpharius wrote:And really, since everything is going to be properly modeled, WYSIWYG at all, the only objection Pyriel- has is... the color of the marines?

At this point, even he would have to admit to being more than a little 'unreasonable'...

You're being intentionally obtuse. Pyriel has a legitimate point that Alpha Legionnaires, as hard core as you want to believe they are, are not properly represented as all having storm bolters, force weapons, and anti-psyker armor. Just because there are marines and there are humans does not mean "hey this is perfect for my AL army and there are no flaws in my plan!" Honestly basic space marines of any codex, with scouts, would probably be closer to correct than super-duper-amazing space marines and guardsmen.

**aka_mythos**

BrassScorpion wrote:
Dreadknights are insanely good.
It may turn out to be insanely large, whatever GW actually has decided to call it. This new walker should be the next large kit for 40K, a mini-Titan. Hopefully the price is not more than the Stormraven.

It seems at least conceptually to be GK answer to fighting defilers and other daemon engines. I would imagine its going to be at least as tall as that.

**Daemon-Archon Ren**

Pyriel- wrote:
I see.
How is this for an analogue then:

I want to play "true power/fluff" salamanders so I do an Alpharius and take the nid codex and use it as an SM stand in.

Pyriel- wrote:
I use 6 fully decked out tyrant guards and count them as space marines (since those are imo on the power levels real tabletop space marines ought to have.

Nope, wrong size model (too small)

Pyriel- wrote:
I use two decked out tyrants as counts as dreadnouhts...again for the power/fluff level.

Again, wrong size model, but you could probably use Fexs as Dreds (I think they are same size base and around same model size IIRC)

Pyriel- wrote:
I use fleshborer gaunts as induced imperial guardsmen/cannonfodder.

So, using the statline and rules for fleshborer guants, but with IG standard models (cadian infantry)? Sounds fine to me!

Pyriel- wrote:
I use warriors as counts as scouts, again for the power level of true tabletop scouts.

Nope, improper model size again.

All shooty biomorph weaponry is just counting as bolters etc.

The whole army consists of 20 scouts, 6 marines, 2 dreads and a HQ but uses nid rules to represent induced guard and SM power levels.

Pyriel- wrote:
Now would anyone have a problem with that tyranid army being used as a true fluff space marine army?
If so then why not simply pretend all my 6 marines are tyrant guards, the 2 dreads are tyrants etc etc.
The perfect proxy army, fully following the codex rulebooks but oh so wrong it gets when my "marines" meet someone elses marines with my being 10 times as tough/powerful.

No, cause you are using improper sized models, and if your wargear was not properly represented, (or at least, differentiated) you would be proxying instead of "counts as".

Also, since you seem to love pointing out hyperbole, wouldn't 10x as tough make them T40, not t6(the highest), t6 is only a 50% increase (so they are 1.5x tougher at max 2.5x toughter in str, unless the SM had a powerfist). If anyone is at a disadvantage, it would be you, cause you would probably underestimate your opponent by saying "LAWL MY TAC GUIZ ARE WARRIERZ" then have them all suffer from a bunch of str5 i5 BAs, Counterattacking SWs, Moving-During-Your-Shooting-Phase BTs, Termis-and-bikes-are-troops DAs, Vukan Hestan Marines or the yet to be released GKs, and to be honest, none of them should have too much a hard time against your 2 tyrants, 6 guard and handful of warriors... any SM afraid of this, should turn in his SM army to the nearest Toys R Us...

Pyriel- wrote:
I would never allow that and neither would I expect anyone else to allow me to bring in such a contraption onto the tabletop.
Ergo my opinion stands and bear in mind that it is just an opinion (you all do what you want yourselves), I would not allow a cont as alpha legion army using disproportionately powerful units to say, my own despite them being based on a codex.
Its all in the personal taste really so lets leave it be as an "agreeing not to agree" issue.

~~~Leaving Work ATM, Will address this at home~~~

**Vhalyar**

shrike wrote:but why have hammerhand if you already have a S10 CCW?

Because not every enemy is a psyker or a deamon? it's only S10 versus two type enemy types.

**pretre**

ph34r wrote:
Alpharius wrote:And really, since everything is going to be properly modeled, WYSIWYG at all, the only objection Pyriel- has is... the color of the marines?

At this point, even he would have to admit to being more than a little 'unreasonable'...
You're being intentionally obtuse. Pyriel has a legitimate point that Alpha Legionnaires, as hard core as you want to believe they are, are not properly represented as all having storm bolters, force weapons, and anti-psyker armor. Just because there are marines and there are humans does not mean "hey this is perfect for my AL army and there are no flaws in my plan!" Honestly basic space marines of any codex, with scouts, would probably be closer to correct than super-duper-amazing space marines and guardsmen.

Be nice.

He's not being obtuse. That's the whole point of 'Counts As'. What if he uses GK minis and calls them Alpha Knights? Is it okay then? When is it okay for him to play with his toy soldiers, in a manner approved by GW with 'Counts As', in the way he wants?

**Gibbsey**

Vhalyar wrote:
shrike wrote:but why have hammerhand if you already have a S10 CCW?

Because not every enemy is a psyker or a deamon? it's only S10 versus two type enemy types.

Well then why do you need str 10 vs psykers and demons if you already have str 10? unless it grants another ability

**UltraPrime**

sourclams wrote:Dreadknights are insanely good. I assume that the wargear is actually wargear options, i.e. no 2 CCW if taking heavy psycannon, etc. If he gets all of that then he's basically a souped-up Khorne-Tzeentch-Nurgle Prince for fewer points and a massive shooting attack.

Monsternator spam seems to be the 'no brainer' build based on the rumors.

Didn't early rumours say he has 4 arms?

**H.B.M.C.**

sourclams wrote:Dreadknights are insanely good. I assume that the wargear is actually wargear options, i.e. no 2 CCW if taking heavy psycannon, etc. If he gets all of that then he's basically a souped-up Khorne-Tzeentch-Nurgle Prince for fewer points and a massive shooting attack.

From what I've read the guns are as well as his close combat weapons.

**Just Dave**

Personally, I'm skipping over what Pyriel says...

Leggy wrote:On the face of it, all the cool toys seem far too undercosted. Do people think this could be a synergy thing? ie the fancy stuff is cheap, because the scoring units are so expensive you'll have very few. Or has everyone agreed the cheapness is bad codex writing, designed to sell the new army?

I'm wondering that. Then again, there's also the questionable accuracy of these rumours considering we're 2 months away from release?

**pretre**

Gibbsey wrote:
Vhalyar wrote:
shrike wrote:but why have hammerhand if you already have a S10 CCW?

Because not every enemy is a psyker or a deamon? it's only S10 versus two type enemy types.

Well then why do you need str 10 vs psykers and demons if you already have str 10? unless it grants another ability

Hammerhand would only make him Str 6 against non-Psy, non-Daem.

**ThirdUltra**

ph34r wrote:
Alpharius wrote:And really, since everything is going to be properly modeled, WYSIWYG at all, the only objection Pyriel- has is... the color of the marines?

At this point, even he would have to admit to being more than a little 'unreasonable'...
You're being intentionally obtuse. Pyriel has a legitimate point that Alpha Legionnaires, as hard core as you want to believe they are, are not properly represented as all having storm bolters, force weapons, and anti-psyker armor. Just because there are marines and there are humans does not mean "hey this is perfect for my AL army and there are no flaws in my plan!" Honestly basic space marines of any codex, with scouts, would probably be closer to correct than super-duper-amazing space marines and guardsmen.

No he's not.....it may not be acceptable to you, but if reasonably put-together, I really don't see how it can be such a big deal.

Why can't they have storm-bolters....? There's been some mention of them 'impersonating' other imperial marine units before, so why not? Captured equipment...?
Why can't they have force weapons...? What, they can't have any warp-based/blessed weaponry from the Architect of Fate (Tzeentch) or for some strange reason they're purists that have no psykers in their midst?

Now who's being obtuse....?

It's Chaos....and what's to say that the Dark Mechanicus with the blessing of Tzeentch or whatever Dark-God, doesn't grant them some very arcane weaponry that seems to 'mimic' GK gear....?

Again, like he mentioned before (Alpharius), if modeled appropriately to where there isn't any question of what-is-what on the table...does it really matter? You're still facing a Grey Knight army in rules-terms, so to me the only sticking point would be how it was modeled to avoid any confusion, otherwise, it's a non-issue.

**vaatbak**

UltraPrime wrote:
sourclams wrote:Dreadknights are insanely good. I assume that the wargear is actually wargear options, i.e. no 2 CCW if taking heavy psycannon, etc. If he gets all of that then he's basically a souped-up Khorne-Tzeentch-Nurgle Prince for fewer points and a massive shooting attack.

Monsternator spam seems to be the 'no brainer' build based on the rumors.

Didn't early rumours say he has 4 arms?

If I recal correctly, no.