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pretre wrote:Be nice.

He's not being obtuse. That's the whole point of 'Counts As'. What if he uses GK minis and calls them Alpha Knights? Is it okay then? When is it okay for him to play with his toy soldiers, in a manner approved by GW with 'Counts As', in the way he wants?

I think his point was that he shouldn't complain as much about his "count-as" army being invalidated since he already had to take significant liberties with the concept to make them work in the first place. That since this codex was never meant to represent what he's been using it to represent, he should complain (as much) when it moves further away from that vague intersection of overlapping concepts. If he, like HBMC, were fielding an actual inquisitorial army he'd have more grounds to complain about the refocusing from Inquisition to GKs.

Gibbsey wrote:Well then why do you need str 10 vs psykers and demons if you already have str 10? unless it grants another ability

Draigo is S5 base but becomes S10 only when fighting Psykers and Daemons. How is this so hard to understand?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

sourclams wrote:Dreadknights are insanely good. I assume that the wargear is actually wargear options, i.e. no 2 CCW if taking heavy psycannon, etc. If he gets all of that then he's basically a souped-up Khorne-Tzeentch-Nurgle Prince for fewer points and a massive shooting attack.

From what I've read the guns are as well as his close combat weapons.

I just hope that GW won't screw up the model.
It has amazing stats and it seems like it'll be big enough to be the centerpiece of an army. Now it just needs to look the part.

bhsman wrote:Draigo is S5 base but becomes S10 only when fighting Psykers and Daemons. How is this so hard to understand?

I'm going to venture a guess and say that he thinks that Hammerhand sets Draigo's S to 10. HH is now +S1 to the whole unit.

aka_mythos wrote: I think his point was that he shouldn't complain as much about his "count-as" army being invalidated since he already had to take significant liberties with the concept to make them work in the first place. That since this codex was never meant to represent what he's been using it to represent, he should complain (as much) when it moves further away from that vague intersection of overlapping concepts. If he, like HBMC, were fielding an actual inquisitorial army he'd have more grounds to complain about the refocusing from Inquisition to GKs.

I think you got confused at some point. I don't think I saw Alpharius complain once. He was enthusiastic about the possibilities for an army using Counts As and the new rules.

Some folks got all up in his business for daring to defile the, as yet unpublished, GK codex with Alpha Legion models and concepts instead of the official models and army.

And try not to get H.B.M.C riled up. I think he just calmed down.

How is this thread 13 pages long already lol, dind't the last gk thread just get shut down like 2 days ago???

bhsman wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:Well then why do you need str 10 vs psykers and demons if you already have str 10? unless it grants another ability

Draigo is S5 base but becomes S10 only when fighting Psykers and Daemons. How is this so hard to understand?

well i was replying to

shrike wrote:but why have hammerhand if you already have a S10 CCW?

If his normal strength is just 5 then why not point that out?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MajorTom11 wrote:How is this thread 13 pages long already lol, dind't the last gk thread just get shut down like 2 days ago???

Well this one has some rumours

MajorTom11 wrote:How is this thread 13 pages long already lol, dind't the last gk thread just get shut down like 2 days ago???

Lots of new info and a near-constant stream of it.

Gibbsey wrote:If his normal strength is just 5 then why not point that out?

But Vhaylar posted the stats in the first place.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

sourclams wrote:Dreadknights are insanely good. I assume that the wargear is actually wargear options, i.e. no 2 CCW if taking heavy psycannon, etc. If he gets all of that then he's basically a souped-up Khorne-Tzeentch-Nurgle Prince for fewer points and a massive shooting attack.

From what I've read the guns are as well as his close combat weapons.

Is that from rumors or from your 'super duper secret codex knowledge'?

Rumors had a GK Term in what was basically a walker exosuit from Alien or Avatar (2 arms). If he's actually in a Deff Dread (4 arms) for sub-175 with those stats and that weapon loadout, then just wow.

I'm not saying it's unpossibleh, but this could be the most generic, net-listed codex released if it's got one amazing HQ standout, one amazing troop standout (thanks to HQ), one amazing Heavy standout, and an Elite standout (Vindicaire) that compensates for all of the weaknesses of the other choices.

Hmm...since the Inquisitorial role has been toned done...I need to find some new ways to pad it out. I might have to make some special rules for my HQ Coteaz 'counts as' to widen the options a bit. Also going to build myself an Ordos Xenos army now too.

Which begs a question. Do you think people would play with a customised SC that allows the fielding of a Leman Russ or a Predator? If people generally do; I can build an interesting Deathwatch force and a more varied Inquisitorial force.

sourclams wrote:Is that from rumors or from your 'super duper secret codex knowledge'?

Rumors had a GK Term in what was basically a walker exosuit from Alien or Avatar (2 arms). If he's actually in a Deff Dread (4 arms) for sub-175 with those stats and that weapon loadout, then just wow.

I'm not saying it's unpossibleh, but this could be the most generic, net-listed codex released if it's got one amazing HQ standout, one amazing troop standout (thanks to HQ), one amazing Heavy standout, and an Elite standout (Vindicaire) that compensates for all of the weaknesses of the other choices.

He never said there were four arms, I think his intent was to say that the weapons are built into the DCCW.

As for the codex, you of all people (IIRC and if I'm wrong then I apologize) complained about Battle Missions, of all things. Maybe you should wait before making such proclamations, in either case.

bhsman wrote:He never said there were four arms, I think his intent was to say that the weapons are built into the DCCW.

Pretty much. It's not like the concept of bayonets is alien (ho ho ho) to Warhammer anyway.

sourclams wrote:Is that from rumors or from your 'super duper secret codex knowledge'?

My own 'super duper secret codex knoweldge'.

Sadly that same super secret knowledge has not provided me with a picture of the Dreadknight...

Anyone know the price and format? Will it be $40-50 HC like the new Orc book?

if its $40-50 I'd expect a significant amount of art and fluff.

ThirdUltra wrote:No he's not.....it may not be acceptable to you, but if reasonably put-together, I really don't see how it can be such a big deal.

Why can't they have storm-bolters....? There's been some mention of them 'impersonating' other imperial marine units before, so why not? Captured equipment...?
Why can't they have force weapons...? What, they can't have any warp-based/blessed weaponry from the Architect of Fate (Tzeentch) or for some strange reason they're purists that have no psykers in their midst?

Now who's being obtuse....?

It's Chaos....and what's to say that the Dark Mechanicus with the blessing of Tzeentch or whatever Dark-God, doesn't grant them some very arcane weaponry that seems to 'mimic' GK gear....?

Again, like he mentioned before (Alpharius), if modeled appropriately to where there isn't any question of what-is-what on the table...does it really matter? You're still facing a Grey Knight army in rules-terms, so to me the only sticking point would be how it was modeled to avoid any confusion, otherwise, it's a non-issue.

The issue is that he thinks this is the best fluff justification. According to fluff, it is not. Sure, the Alpha Legion COULD all have storm bolters for some convoluted reason, and COULD have force weapons for another reason, and COULD have anti-psyker armor. But hey, guess what. There's nothing about that in the fluff at all. Sure, you can pull some fluff out of your ass, but if you think this is the best fit for the actual Alpha Legion fluff, you're nuts.

Also nice point with the 'impersonating' point, yeah alpha legion would totally try to impersonate marines by taking a weapons loadout that 99.9% of marine chapters do not have. Brilliant way to undermine your position there.

So if Drago and Paladin rumors are correct...

HQ:

Drago - 275pts

Troops:

7 Panadins + Apothecary - 460pts

7 Panadins + Apothecary - 460pts

Then Either:

3 x Vindicare - 435pts

1 x HQ choice (go with other paladin choice if not something else) 120pts

Total: 21 models

Or:

2 x DreadKnigt with teleporter - 420pts
1 x HQ choice (go with other paladin choice if not something else) 135pts

Total: 20 models

Looks like a very easy army to get into given the small model count.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Anyone know the price and format? Will it be $40-50 HC like the new Orc book?

If it's that expensive I'm definitely not getting it. I can swallow $20-$30 for a codex I'm interested in, but even $30 is stretching it. $40-$50 is right out.

Noisy_Marine wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Anyone know the price and format? Will it be $40-50 HC like the new Orc book?

If it's that expensive I'm definitely not getting it. I can swallow $20-$30 for a codex I'm interested in, but even $30 is stretching it. $40-$50 is right out.

Even if it allows you to bludgeon foul heretics?

ph34r wrote:

ThirdUltra wrote:No he's not.....it may not be acceptable to you, but if reasonably put-together, I really don't see how it can be such a big deal.

Why can't they have storm-bolters....? There's been some mention of them 'impersonating' other imperial marine units before, so why not? Captured equipment...?
Why can't they have force weapons...? What, they can't have any warp-based/blessed weaponry from the Architect of Fate (Tzeentch) or for some strange reason they're purists that have no psykers in their midst?

Now who's being obtuse....?

It's Chaos....and what's to say that the Dark Mechanicus with the blessing of Tzeentch or whatever Dark-God, doesn't grant them some very arcane weaponry that seems to 'mimic' GK gear....?

Again, like he mentioned before (Alpharius), if modeled appropriately to where there isn't any question of what-is-what on the table...does it really matter? You're still facing a Grey Knight army in rules-terms, so to me the only sticking point would be how it was modeled to avoid any confusion, otherwise, it's a non-issue.

The issue is that he thinks this is the best fluff justification. According to fluff, it is not. Sure, the Alpha Legion COULD all have storm bolters for some convoluted reason, and COULD have force weapons for another reason, and COULD have anti-psyker armor. But hey, guess what. There's nothing about that in the fluff at all. Sure, you can pull some fluff out of your ass, but if you think this is the best fit for the actual Alpha Legion fluff, you're nuts.

Also nice point with the 'impersonating' point, yeah alpha legion would totally try to impersonate marines by taking a weapons loadout that 99.9% of marine chapters do not have. Brilliant way to undermine your position there.

I'm not speaking on any Alpha Legions players (our or lord Alphy's) behalf, however, here is why using the GK codex for Alpha Legionnaires makes sense. At least more sense than any other Codex:

Most importantly - It allows a good mix of Astartes (GK) and non-astartes (Henchmen, Inquisitors, Stormies etc.)

The comparable power of the Grey Knights, compared to that of a bog-standard Henchman would be more in line with the BACKGROUND COMPARABLE ABILITY OF AN ASTARTES> NORMAL HUMAN.
This is the key bit that people (OK, 2 people) seem to be struggling to understand. It's not that Alpha Legionnaires are any tougher than normal Space Marines (although they are technically more experienced), it's that normal MeQ stats don't match up to a Space Marines ability in the fluff.
In the background, Terminators are nigh on invulnerable, Space Marines can loose limbs and fight on, Space Marines can spit acid and all kinds of other super-human abilities that are represented in the background. Its often stated in the background that a single Space Marine is comparable to 100's of Orks or Guardsmen.
Yet, in game, they're barely comparable to two or three.

In true fluff to stats, Space Marines would have much much better stats than they do at the moment. Ask almost any veteran; Space Marines fluff does not fit in with their in game ability.

Hence, the normal ability of a Grey Knight is more similar to that of how powerful a Space Marine is supposed to be. Its not that Alpha Legionnaires all have force weapons and storm bolters, it's that a Boltgun is supposed to fire what are effectively rockets and Space Marines are a lot more powerful in CC than Str4.

Basically, in this case, a Grey Knight is a better representation of what ANY Space Marine (not just Alpha Legionnaire) is like in the background.


Furthermore, if Grey Knights have improved abilities in terms of manoeuvrability, such as mass-deepstriking or relocation, then this better suits the Guerilla tactics used by Alpha Legionnaires.


So what does an Alpha Legion player gain by using the Grey Knight Codex?
- A mix of Marines and Humans - as per fluff.
- Ability to use what is akin to Guerilla warfare - as per fluff.
- Space Marines more similar to how they should be in game - as per fluff.
- What other Codex are they supposed to use?!


It makes sense. Ultimately, it's not perfect. However, ultimately, Grey Knights will likely struggle against Mechanised (the Meta) and ultimately, you won't be playing against them.

If you guys want to continue to dispute counts as fluff wise you could create another thread.... before this one gets locked preferably as we have has some decent rumors...

Just Dave summed it up nicely... thanks!

Also, I think the current rumor is super expensive and nifty looking Army Books are just that - WFB only... for now!

So, 40K Codices will be continuing as is... for now!

Alpharius wrote:Also, I think the current rumor is super expensive and nifty looking Army Books are just that - WFB only... for now!

So, 40K Codices will be continuing as is... for now!

Honestly if they could put it enough content/ fluff to justify a hardcover i wouldent be too opposed, but it would limit people from buying multiple codexes

Gibbsey wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Also, I think the current rumor is super expensive and nifty looking Army Books are just that - WFB only... for now!

So, 40K Codices will be continuing as is... for now!

Honestly if they could put it enough content/ fluff to justify a hardcover i wouldent be too opposed, but it would limit people from buying multiple codexes

It's bound to happen for 6th Ed.

UltraPrime wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Also, I think the current rumor is super expensive and nifty looking Army Books are just that - WFB only... for now!

So, 40K Codices will be continuing as is... for now!

Honestly if they could put it enough content/ fluff to justify a hardcover i wouldent be too opposed, but it would limit people from buying multiple codexes

It's bound to happen for 6th Ed.

Rulebook? or codexes? because rulebook definatly (cmon mini rulebook in starter set)

All I'll say about the Alpha Legion is this: The best codex to represent them would be an Alpha Legion codex. Failing that...

bhsman wrote:All I'll say about the Alpha Legion is this: The best codex to represent them would be an Alpha Legion codex. Failing that...

"Failing that", you've got the Tyrant's Legion and the Vraksian Renegade lists.

Legion is better for a more "Astartes" heavy Alpha Legion, while Renegade is better for their 'operatives'.

Or you can comp out entirely on it and use D-99 for Alpha Legion Operators outside of Power Armour.

Just Dave wrote:Furthermore, if Grey Knights have improved abilities in terms of manoeuvrability, such as mass-deepstriking or relocation, then this better suits the Guerilla tactics used by Alpha Legionnaires.


So what does an Alpha Legion player gain by using the Grey Knight Codex?
- A mix of Marines and Humans - as per fluff.
- Ability to use what is akin to Guerilla warfare - as per fluff.
- Space Marines more similar to how they should be in game - as per fluff.
- What other Codex are they supposed to use?!


It makes sense. Ultimately, it's not perfect. However, ultimately, Grey Knights will likely struggle against Mechanised (the Meta) and ultimately, you won't be playing against them.

it's passable but it doens't necessarily make sense. first off, fluff =/= game rules as you stated; this is not an accident but on purpose. while there is lip service to it, they can't represent the way marines are in the novels in the game because a 1500pt marine army would consist of a tactical squad and rhino (and only give GW $60 in sales for an "army"). if you want to play 100% official movie marines, you'd have to convert a squad of truescale marines and use the paladin squad rules for them along with the HQ IC that makes them troops. also, deep striking or teleporting from orbit is NOT the in game equivalent of guerilla tactics... a mix of scout and infiltrate (+/- stealth and move through cover) are. either way, as i posted before, there are better ways to approximate the alpha's fluff (the stuff that makes them unique) by using the tyrant's legion rules (which he said he'd look at) or even using the existing rules with allies (either the WH or DH codex... IIRC, both can ally with marines.) Another option in larger games is to have two force organization charts, one with marines and the other with guard.

in the end, i wouldn't hestitate to play against an army like the one he is proposing assuming that he clearly modelled them as such. if he went through the trouble (and expense) of modelling each of his green chaos marine models with a combibolter and power weapon (the chaos equivalents of GK standard weaponry), i'd be satisfied. if he were to plop down some regular chaos marines with bolters and say they were GKs, i'd raise an eyebrow but probably still play. if he were to then tell me that the fluff of the incorrectly modelled non-wysiwig figs he's using matches those rules best, i'd reconsider playing the game as i would probably have a hard time believing anything said by that player during the game. in the end, much like with any counts as or proxied army, the WAY you do it makes all the difference with the rule of cool being pre-eminent. I don't think alpharius has actually said whether he'll just be using the rules with vanilla chaos models or if he's going through with converting a WYSIWIG force. If it's the later, i'm behind him 100%.

Kanluwen wrote:"Failing that", you've got the Tyrant's Legion and the Vraksian Renegade lists.

Legion is better for a more "Astartes" heavy Alpha Legion, while Renegade is better for their 'operatives'.

Or you can comp out entirely on it and use D-99 for Alpha Legion Operators outside of Power Armour.

And I agree, but good luck finding a store that will let you use those lists for tournaments. I'm not saying C:GK will be the only option or even the best, but to see everyone get in a tussel at the mere idea of it is laughable.

Anyways, back on topic but apparently Castellan Crowe makes Purifier squads troops.

Just Dave wrote:I'm not speaking on any Alpha Legions players (our or lord Alphy's) behalf, however, here is why using the GK codex for Alpha Legionnaires makes sense. At least more sense than any other Codex:

Most importantly - It allows a good mix of Astartes (GK) and non-astartes (Henchmen, Inquisitors, Stormies etc.)

The comparable power of the Grey Knights, compared to that of a bog-standard Henchman would be more in line with the BACKGROUND COMPARABLE ABILITY OF AN ASTARTES> NORMAL HUMAN.
This is the key bit that people (OK, 2 people) seem to be struggling to understand. It's not that Alpha Legionnaires are any tougher than normal Space Marines (although they are technically more experienced), it's that normal MeQ stats don't match up to a Space Marines ability in the fluff.
In the background, Terminators are nigh on invulnerable, Space Marines can loose limbs and fight on, Space Marines can spit acid and all kinds of other super-human abilities that are represented in the background. Its often stated in the background that a single Space Marine is comparable to 100's of Orks or Guardsmen.
Yet, in game, they're barely comparable to two or three.

In true fluff to stats, Space Marines would have much much better stats than they do at the moment. Ask almost any veteran; Space Marines fluff does not fit in with their in game ability.

Hence, the normal ability of a Grey Knight is more similar to that of how powerful a Space Marine is supposed to be. Its not that Alpha Legionnaires all have force weapons and storm bolters, it's that a Boltgun is supposed to fire what are effectively rockets and Space Marines are a lot more powerful in CC than Str4.

Basically, in this case, a Grey Knight is a better representation of what ANY Space Marine (not just Alpha Legionnaire) is like in the background.


Furthermore, if Grey Knights have improved abilities in terms of manoeuvrability, such as mass-deepstriking or relocation, then this better suits the Guerilla tactics used by Alpha Legionnaires.


So what does an Alpha Legion player gain by using the Grey Knight Codex?
- A mix of Marines and Humans - as per fluff.
- Ability to use what is akin to Guerilla warfare - as per fluff.
- Space Marines more similar to how they should be in game - as per fluff.
- What other Codex are they supposed to use?!


It makes sense. Ultimately, it's not perfect. However, ultimately, Grey Knights will likely struggle against Mechanised (the Meta) and ultimately, you won't be playing against them.

Half of your argument is a generic argument for how marine rules should be more like movie marines and can be safely discarded as it does not apply to Alpha Legion and more than it does to Blood Angels.

The other half of your argument is a mix of marines and humans, which is valid, and the ability to use Guerilla warfare... oops, you messed up that one.
Sorry, but teleporting is not Guerilla warfare. In fact, rules already exist in game to represent that! Let's take a magic tour through our rule book and remember that Infiltrate, Scout, and Stealth exist!

So after we cut away the 3/4 of your argument that are useless, it comes down to "you can take marines and guardsmen mixed" This is an entirely valid point. However, it is vastly outweighed by:

Totally incorrect basic troop armament
No infiltrating or scout marines aside from possible tactical geniusing
Very unfluffy anti-psyker specialization

When you can't even field a basic Alpha Legionnaire, there is a fundamental problem with your idea.