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Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

GeckoOBac wrote:Hammers are 5 points on Purifiers, or 10 points on Strike Squads and Interceptors. Give it to the Justicar and you can master-craft it for 5 points. Especially on the Purifiers, 10 points for a Master-Crafted, potentially S10 Thunder Hammer is just unbeatable.

Even better, for the +5 pts. you master-crraft ALL the weapons of the Knight of Flame. MC Krak Grenade for the win:
...And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O EMPEROR, bless this Thy hand grenade that with it Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits, in Thy mercy. First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch II towards thy foe, who being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it.

Haha YES! But unfortunately it does say "5 points per weapon" so you would have to pay to MC that Krark grenade

shealyr wrote:

Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

GeckoOBac wrote:Hammers are 5 points on Purifiers, or 10 points on Strike Squads and Interceptors. Give it to the Justicar and you can master-craft it for 5 points. Especially on the Purifiers, 10 points for a Master-Crafted, potentially S10 Thunder Hammer is just unbeatable.

Even better, for the +5 pts. you master-crraft ALL the weapons of the Knight of Flame. MC Krak Grenade for the win:
...And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O EMPEROR, bless this Thy hand grenade that with it Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits, in Thy mercy. First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch II towards thy foe, who being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it.

Haha YES! But unfortunately it does say "5 points per weapon" so you would have to pay to MC that Krark grenade

NOOOOOOOO xD! But such a luck charm might be worth the points... AFTER ALL YOU CAN'T LOSE WITH THE HOLY HANDGRENADE xD!

Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

GeckoOBac wrote:Hammers are 5 points on Purifiers, or 10 points on Strike Squads and Interceptors. Give it to the Justicar and you can master-craft it for 5 points. Especially on the Purifiers, 10 points for a Master-Crafted, potentially S10 Thunder Hammer is just unbeatable.

Even better, for the +5 pts. you master-crraft ALL the weapons of the Knight of Flame. MC Krak Grenade for the win:
...And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O EMPEROR, bless this Thy hand grenade that with it Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits, in Thy mercy. First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch II towards thy foe, who being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it.

If you want the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch, play Black Templars, just saying .


Oh, and you can't MC grenades :S

shealyr wrote:Also on the Daemon Hammer, master crafting it will let you re-roll when hitting vehicles. That's a really big deal when you need a 6 to hit that moving Land Raider, Leman Russ, or even a simple Rhino.

The only small issue with that is failing your psychic test. If the squad fails a test, and the Justicar or whatever the hell he is called, is still alive, he dies from Perils of the Warp.

I'd be fine risking perils to ensure I can pop whatever needs popping. The Justicar's extra attack can really go a long way.

Besides, you don't always need to use Hammerhand. Sure, on AV 12 or higher it'll be great, but if you're hitting AV 10, it's a little overkill.

Ragnar Blackmane wrote:*SHNIP* For 508 pts. you get a 9 wound Terminator squad with stealth (and hey, you can DS them right into cover without penalties, right next to the enemy sitting on his home objective) *SHNIP*

UMHOW! How can you land in area terrain without taking DT tests?

Yeah, I'm not seeing that. Not scattering doesn't cancel the fact of deep striking into difficult terrain.

Other than that, it's not a bad plan - especially if you can join an Inquisitor or something to him and a bunch of knights before deployment.

Jaon wrote:

Ragnar Blackmane wrote:*SHNIP* For 508 pts. you get a 9 wound Terminator squad with stealth (and hey, you can DS them right into cover without penalties, right next to the enemy sitting on his home objective) *SHNIP*

UMHOW! How can you land in area terrain without taking DT tests?

Only half of your squad needs to actually be in terrain, which means 4 models for a 7 men squad. If two of these 4 models are Mordrak and the Inquisitor, you'll only risk two normal Terminators (not even the guy with the banner) and the chance of both of them dying is quite low. Mordrak and the Inquisitor can take a wound without prob. You might even spawn an additional Terminator if he fails his terrain test and his 4++ save.
In the end it's probably better to risk the terrain tests to get a 3+ cover save instead of landing in open terrain with a 5++ save against the meltas and LC the enemy will point at you.

The more I think about this codex and its many characterful units, the less I think we were expected to 'spam' anything. 3 Quad auto cannon dreads? Sure, they're great - but why? In a tournament, legality is the only guideline, I get that...but why limit your list and your fun so severely in a friendly game? So many good units in almost every category...I don't see myself doing much spamming. Just my 2 cents.

Fafnir wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Psycannon is NOT 50 points on a BC, nor on a GKGM. Slightly less.

It costs 40 points on the BC, and 45 on the GKGM. 45/50 with mastercrafting. Either way, it's not worth it.

However agreed - make him a GKGM and give him Rad or Psykotroke grenades instead of paying for a psycannon, maybe MC the sword.

Damn straight. The Grand Master/Brother Captain are competent shots, but the weaponry is just way too expensive to justify the cost. But with minimal investment, he's also a close combat monster, and the vast majority of the upgrades you can give him just make him better. Save the points on the Grand Master to buy 2-4 more psycannons for the rest of your army instead.

And the Grand Master himself offers so much more than the Brother Captain that it's ridiculous to ever take the BC over him. The Grand Strategy puts his utility on the same level of the IG CCS. He is, without a shadow of doubt, one of the best HQs in the game because of that. If you're running a Brother Captain, you should always --ALWAYS-- be able to find 25 points to turn him into a Grand Master. Even if you have to remove some equipment from him to do it. A Grand Master begins making back his points before the game even starts.

I can't buy 2-4 more psycannons for 45 points, since at minimum a psycannon now is going to cost me 110 (Strike Squad + Psycannon). Second, I disagree with the +1BS and The Grand Strategy being worth Psybolt ammo for 2 squads *FOR THIS ARMY*. In general, I 100% agree that The Grand Strategy is easily worth 25 points, would probably be worth 50 points. However, the amount it does to help this army is minimal, at best.

-Scouts. Only one of the squads is starting on the board, the rest arrive by deep strike (unless up against another DS army, in which case the Strike Squad also starts on the ground to provide warp quakes). So yes, it would let me march the one termie squad up 6" in the beginning of the game. Useful, sure, but not game breaking.
-Re-roll 1's to wound. Largely considered to be the worst ability anyway, with limited usability in an army with a game plan of deepstrike around the enemy and shoot them with Psycannons. Useful, sure, but less then Psybolt ammo imo.
-Counterattack. The most likely candidate to be used (and was what I was expecting when I had the GM in there instead of the B-C). Good benefit, especially in a full squad. However, with certain exception assaulting a GK squad is the last thing you want to do, and I am far more concerned with being shot to death then being assaulted. Still, best case ability giving it to all three of my termie squads would be very cool.
-Scoring. Well, everything already scores...

So yeah, 30 points to give counterattack to 1 squad, not worth it, imo. 30 points to give it to 3 squads, worth it. So, I am basically gambling. However, as I said, I am more concerned with being shot to death or being outmaneuvered by meched opponents then I am being assaulted by a unit where a handful of extra attacks is going to swing it for me. So ultimately, having enhanced de-meching shooting for my deepstriking units is a better use of points, while I retain what I REALLY wanted from the GM, which was Psychic Communion, 3 servo skulls and another Psycannon for my anvil squad (especially one almost guaranteed to hit 4 times).

You designate Grand Strategy modifications to squads before deployment. This means it's done before you could break units into combat squads. On a good roll, you can get six outflanking units that Psychic Communion is bringing in pretty near exactly when you want them. Just sayin'...

I'm not sure how much better that would be then those units coming in via deep strike and scattering only 1d6", especially considering not having any form of re-roll on the outflank side roll. Would highly depend on the opponent and game type, I guess.

With at least two, and maybe 6 - stuff is coming in from both sides. Give it psycannons and psibolts...and your opponent is having a fit.

I actually like deep strike (way too much), but it's gotten more dangerous lately. Players are taking more terrain, more disbursed terrain, and distributing their units to make it as hard as possible to safely land something of useful size near a desirable target.

You know, you actually make a terrific point. I want to look at the rule again to figure out some of the timing issues, but the pure THREAT of outflanking psycannons OR deepstriking Psycannons can have a pretty profound affect on the opponents deployment. Also, with less reliance on deep striking, I can probably drop the more expensive Servo Skulls from the GK character.

I am going to look into this a bit and refine my list back to closer to what I had before. The tactical flexibility of having scout (outflank) as a deployment option is probably significant enough to make the change, even in an army expecting to DS in.

Annoyingly enough, the best counter for Grey Knights is...

Mechanized IG.

*sigh*

Griever wrote:Annoyingly enough, the best counter for Grey Knights is...

Mechanized IG.

*sigh*

If you think that, I'm pretty sure you don't know what you're doing. A properly built GK army can easily win a shooting war with most mech IG builds. The best counter for GK looks to be Tau.

Fetterkey wrote:

Griever wrote:Annoyingly enough, the best counter for Grey Knights is...

Mechanized IG.

*sigh*

If you think that, I'm pretty sure you don't know what you're doing. A properly built GK army can easily win a shooting war with most mech IG builds. The best counter for GK looks to be Tau.

I would love to hear your thoughts on that. I have a Tau army as well, and was noodling about some list ideas vs. Grey Knights. A buddy and I just tried his Tau vs. my Grey Knights, and it didn't go so well for him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Magister187 wrote:You know, you actually make a terrific point. I want to look at the rule again to figure out some of the timing issues, but the pure THREAT of outflanking psycannons OR deepstriking Psycannons can have a pretty profound affect on the opponents deployment. Also, with less reliance on deep striking, I can probably drop the more expensive Servo Skulls from the GK character.

I am going to look into this a bit and refine my list back to closer to what I had before. The tactical flexibility of having scout (outflank) as a deployment option is probably significant enough to make the change, even in an army expecting to DS in.

Thanks. It worked very well for me when I tried it with a friend over the weekend - and I rolled a 1 for Grand Strategy. This caused me to break the Purifiers into two units, each with 2 Psycannons. They never got to grips with anyone - they shot everything to death.

VoidAngel wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:

Griever wrote:Annoyingly enough, the best counter for Grey Knights is...

Mechanized IG.

*sigh*

If you think that, I'm pretty sure you don't know what you're doing. A properly built GK army can easily win a shooting war with most mech IG builds. The best counter for GK looks to be Tau.

I would love to hear your thoughts on that. I have a Tau army as well, and was noodling about some list ideas vs. Grey Knights. A buddy and I just tried his Tau vs. my Grey Knights, and it didn't go so well for him.

At this stage in the core rules, I think many competitive Grey Knight armies are going to be based on vehicles getting 3+ cover saves from shooting and being highly resistant to crew shaken/crew stunned results. With railguns and markerlights, Tau have the means to deny both of those effects.

Okay Guys ! First post here! Like to say hello first off and thank you for the tips ...

* as a disclaimer I have not "really" played since 3rd Ed so please keep this i mind if you will , as I have because of the GK release found my self back again and have yet to even grab the Newest Ruleset! ohh I obviously played GK (pure : lots of fun )

Anyhow I to am finding certain builds tricky but the variety and options here are pretty epic

I was hoping someone could explain a few things:

1) what is the scout move
2) what is considered a scoring unit (outside of the grand strategy ability)
3) all GK have Force weapons are these still considered power weapons if they are not charged?
4) if I wanted to charge my force weapons and attempt hammerhand will this require a mastery level of 2
5) does jump infantry act like tau stealth suits meaning move 6 and than another 6 within the assault phase? or is it flat out 12 in the movement phase?
6) psychic communion if I just deep struck can I use this for the remainder of my Deep Striking Elements?
7) when does deep striking take place after movement right?
8) silly I'm sure but all GK Termies can deep strike right? being that they aren't scared of the warp ... just didn't see it when I looked

Side thoughts / questions about some list fun:

Can a lib cast the steath spell within a vehicle and then have it transfer to other vehicled troops? assuming vehicles are considered units? could be cool-ish

another thought / question:

Crowe has titans herald giving the entire unit the ability to re-roll to hits and his blade grants "furious charge" assuming nothing more than the description but again allowing re-rolls to hit so that would give you 3 chances to get it right *if your charged and 2 chances if you charge. this seems like it could be pretty horrific with purifiers esp. if the falchions in deed grant a total of +2 base attacks. What else does Furious Charge Grant? this seems like a decently cheap way of knocking out a force org chart and getting a pretty nice H2H unit? thoughts

Thanks again guys !
Derek

Sir - you should really post a RULES query in the YMDC forum.

However:

1) You get to make a "normal" move, including turboboost / flat out, before the game begins but after both sides have finished deploying.
2) Troops choices, non vehicle, barring a special rule saying otherwise
3) All force weapons are power weapons that can have an extra ability (cause ID) - they are ALWAYS power weapons though.
4) Yes, or have someone else in the unit cast it e.g Thawn (who has mastery 2)
5) Jump / Jet pack. 12" movement only
6) No, because the BRB FAQ says so. Start of movement phase powers cannot be used AFTER you have DS
7) First thing you do
8) All termies can deepstrike, their armour grants it
9) Yes, page 67 - you measure range to / from an embarked unit by measuring to the vehicles hull
10) Furious charge increases your S and I stat, it does NOTHING to roll to hit. Page 3 (from memory) also states you can never reroll a reroll
11) Falchions do, RAW and (I would argue) Fluff-wise, grant +2 attacks; 1 is a change to your attack characteristic and the other is a bonus attack

sir wrote:Okay Guys ! First post here! Like to say hello first off and thank you for the tips ...

* as a disclaimer I have not "really" played since 3rd Ed so please keep this i mind if you will , as I have because of the GK release found my self back again and have yet to even grab the Newest Ruleset! ohh I obviously played GK (pure : lots of fun )

Anyhow I to am finding certain builds tricky but the variety and options here are pretty epic

I was hoping someone could explain a few things:

1) what is the scout move

It's a move made after deployment but before the first turn of any player, only by the units with the "scouts" USR that are not being kept in reserve.

2) what is considered a scoring unit (outside of the grand strategy ability)

Units bought as "Troops" in the FOC. Since many characters can make different kind of units Troops, this list may be quite wide.

3) all GK have Force weapons are these still considered power weapons if they are not charged?
4) if I wanted to charge my force weapons and attempt hammerhand will this require a mastery level of 2

Yes to both questions.

5) does jump infantry act like tau stealth suits meaning move 6 and than another 6 within the assault phase? or is it flat out 12 in the movement phase?

12" in the movement phase, ignoring intervening units and/or terrain

6) psychic communion if I just deep struck can I use this for the remainder of my Deep Striking Elements?

Afaik nope since you use it at the start of the movement phase, so before any unit has deep striked.

7) when does deep striking take place after movement right?

Nope, Deep Striking is made as a part of the movement phase, at the start

8) silly I'm sure but all GK Termies can deep strike right? being that they aren't scared of the warp ... just didn't see it when I looked

Yes they all can, it's in the entry for the terminator armor.

About the other question I'm not sure, just a thing though:
Crowe's weapon does not grant HIM furios charge and reroll. It grants those rules to the ENEMY unit engaged in combat IF they charged Crow in this turn.

[Edit: argh somebody beat me... doing the fancy quoting took some time =(]

Wow Thanks Guys really helpful!

@ nosferatu1001:
Next time I will take the time to post in a more appriate sub forum thank you! I just figured this had the attention of those needed to encounter for answers.

@ GeckoOBac:
About crowe ... That changes bunches ... totally misread that one. now I can kinda see why people are a bit errr with him

newb out!

No worries, its just you'll get better (read, with all the page numbers!) responses in the YMDC forum, especially if your question is tricky

Crowe isnt bad, when you realise you can suicide him. Get him a cheap vehicle to ride in and throw him forwards. With his stance he can tarpit units you want tarpitting, and he can auto kill expensive models when he eventually dies.

Yeah also cleansing flame means that even if you keep staying on the defensive you'll probably get a kill or two every round, more if against hordes...

This is my first list aka sketch of a 2000 point list:
I am expecting this to be slaughtered so release the hounds !


HQ:
Lord Kaldor Draigo

GM Mordrak

5 Ghost Knights: Hali's + Banner

Troops:
2: Paladins: Hali's

2: Paladins: Hali's

Elite:
Vindicare

FA:
1: 8 man interceptor squad: 6 - Hali's / 2 - Hammers

1:9 man interceptor squad: 8 Hali's / 1 - Hammer

Heavy's:
2: Dreads: 2/ twin linked auto cannons w/ psy ammo

I could drop the assassin and add another Dred and bump the Interceptors to 10 man units with 1 hammer each and or add a pali or two maybe even throw some phy cannons on em idk its still a sketch still don't really know where I wanna go with the GK's ... so if anybody can see into what I am trying to go for please feel free to edit

Thanks Ya'll!
Derek

With just 4 paladins you're basically screwed in any objective mission... They're only naked terminators, yes 2 wounds each but a little low ap fire or a lot of normal fire will kill them, leaving you unable to claim any objective and basically auto losing.

Yeah, if you're not going to build your entire army around Paladins, don't even think of taking Draigo, he's not worth it. Normal Grand Masters cost less and support better.

Play it as is. If you had fun, you won.

That's nice and all, but if he's asking for advice on his list composition, he'd probably appreciate some real advice.

Fafnir wrote:Yeah, if you're not going to build your entire army around Paladins, don't even think of taking Draigo, he's not worth it. Normal Grand Masters cost less and support better.

Well Draigo IS good on its own anyway... Quite costly though and in an army so stretched as GKs perhaps the expense is excessive.