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ductvader wrote:I am thinking though...technically a StormRaven isn't in cover by moving flat out...it just gets a cover save...I think that is different enough to matter.

Mind you...I hate RAW nastiness...but I think the FAQ will probably go with this logic.

With the Space Wolves, Stormcaller's 5+ cover save can be brought down to 4+ due to Stealth, so I don't see why the Grey Knights would be any different.

ph34r wrote:The tricky part is that it says "a pair" and not "two". When GW "means" to give you two weapons, they say "two", as seen in the death cultist entry.

I am in favor of +2 attacks, but I feel like GW probably wanted them to be just +1.

If they are just +1 however, they seem very not worth it.

Currently a Pair is exactly that; 2 power weapons (plus extras)

Do i have to mention the Gauntlets in this thread? They're a "pair" of powerfists

Good reference. That leads me to believe that GW did in fact intend for the pair of falchions to provide +2 attacks overall.

ph34r wrote:Good reference. That leads me to believe that GW did in fact intend for the pair of falchions to provide +2 attacks overall.

Which MAY make a mix of them (halberds and falchions) very well worth taking.

For purifiers I think you should go full out on either falchions or halberds with maybe one or two hammers. What to choose depends on what you are able to support the squad with.

Falchions if you are able to use a librarian for quicksilver (I10) or have rad grenades to 2+ wound T4 combined with hammerhand. I think quicksilver is more important as you don't want to be losing too many knights. Too bad there is no power armoured librarian. If the squad has to go by itself S5 at I6 for a bargain is pretty good too.

+1 or +2 doesn't make much of a difference with those bonuses. Purifiers with falchions will clean house with a librarian either way. I think RAW states +2, but that might very well change, along with the DCCW tomfoolery with the Dreadknight.

All of the special weapons are too expensive to put on GKSS, especially the falchions. 30 point basic troops? No thanks. It's nice to have them as an option in the codex (go GW!), but GKSS don't seem to be meant to be a close combat unit.

So, anyone consider doing a deep striking army?

This tactic could work well by using Psychic Communion. Especially if an individual HQ can cast it twice (with Mastery Level 2 of course). Any thoughts on if this will be allowed? PC is specifically listed as stacking with other uses of PC. I just don't know if one character can use it twice.

I don't believe they can use it twice, no. Usually you can't use the same power twice in a turn.
However, you can get a second character to cast Psychic Communion, that is what I am planning on. 1 Brother Captain, 1 Ordo Malleus inquisitor.

Biggest issue, imo, is that in order to use the Psychic Communion, they have to be deployed on the board. My list was something like (its late, so I don't have points)

Brother Captain w/MC Psycannon, Rad Grenades, Psyco Grenades, 3x Servo Skull
Inquisitor in termie armour w/Psycannon, Psychic Communion, 3x Servo Skull
10x Termie w/2x Psycannon, Banner, Psybolt Ammo
10x Termie w/2x Psycannon
10x Termie w/2x Psycannon
10x Strike Squad w/2x Psycannon, Psybolt ammo

both HQ and the kitted out termie squad deploy up and advance, second/third turn everything deep strikes accurately due to skulls.

I would remove the psycannon from the Brother Captain. That's 50 points that could be better spent elsewhere (like in upgrading him to a Grand Master so that you can use Grand Strategy).

I'd also recommend replacing the strike squad with an interceptor squad, but that's just me.

Psycannon is NOT 50 points on a BC, nor on a GKGM. Slightly less.

However agreed - make him a GKGM and give him Rad or Psykotroke grenades instead of paying for a psycannon, maybe MC the sword.

So far I'm finding that this works pretty well:

Crowe

Vindicare Assassin

10 Purifiers
4 Psycannons
4 Halberds
Master Crafted Daemon Hammer
Psybolt Ammunition
Rhino
Searchlight

10 Purifiers
4 Psycannons
5 Halberds
Master Crafted Daemon Hammer
Psybolt Ammunition
Rhino
Searchlight

5 Purifiers (for objective holding)
Incinerator
Psycannon

10 Interceptors
2 Incinerators
Warding Stave
Daemon Hammer

Dreadnought
T/L Autocannon x2
Psybolt Ammunition

Dreadnought
T/L Autocannon x2
Psybolt Ammunition

I think it's what I'll end up using.

Crowe is actually surprisingly useful. The combination of Brotherhood Champion rules with Cleansing Flame is great for units like Banshees and Burnas (as the 10 Burnas who charged him in my last game can attest to... or maybe not!). Additionally, Heroic Sacrifice means charging him into a big baddy is actually a really good idea. He failed to hit Ghazghkull (even with the re-roll from charging!) in my last game, but I can definitely see his usefulness there. I do wish he had a 3++ rather than a 4++ in CC like a normal Champion, but I suppose you have to give up something for Cleansing Flame.

The Purifiers are just nasty. They can break any unit in the game through shooting w/ 4 Psycannons and Psybolt Storm Bolters, then in CC, they continue with the massacre. I forsee myself bumping up to 3 full squads, maybe even 4, as points go up. Very, very pleased with them.

The S8 Autocannon Dreads are another great unit. In my last game, they never missed a single shot. They just sat back and rained the shells until they die, which is difficult to do when they're all the way back in my own corner.

Vindicare hasn't impressed me yet, although there hasn't yet been a Land Raider across the table from me or an Iron Halo to break. It'll come eventually though.

The Interceptors do suffer somewhat from the same problem vanilla Assault Marines do, but giving a unit 2 Incinerators and a 30" shunt makes them nasssssssty. They made everything from Lootas to Heavy Weapons Teams go bye bye, while Devastators and Long Fangs merely end up traumatized from the experience.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Psycannon is NOT 50 points on a BC, nor on a GKGM. Slightly less.

It costs 40 points on the BC, and 45 on the GKGM. 45/50 with mastercrafting. Either way, it's not worth it.

However agreed - make him a GKGM and give him Rad or Psykotroke grenades instead of paying for a psycannon, maybe MC the sword.

Damn straight. The Grand Master/Brother Captain are competent shots, but the weaponry is just way too expensive to justify the cost. But with minimal investment, he's also a close combat monster, and the vast majority of the upgrades you can give him just make him better. Save the points on the Grand Master to buy 2-4 more psycannons for the rest of your army instead.

And the Grand Master himself offers so much more than the Brother Captain that it's ridiculous to ever take the BC over him. The Grand Strategy puts his utility on the same level of the IG CCS. He is, without a shadow of doubt, one of the best HQs in the game because of that. If you're running a Brother Captain, you should always --ALWAYS-- be able to find 25 points to turn him into a Grand Master. Even if you have to remove some equipment from him to do it. A Grand Master begins making back his points before the game even starts.

shealyr wrote:So far I'm finding that this works pretty well:

Crowe

Vindicare Assassin

10 Purifiers
4 Psycannons
4 Halberds
Master Crafted Daemon Hammer
Psybolt Ammunition
Rhino
Searchlight

10 Purifiers
4 Psycannons
5 Halberds
Master Crafted Daemon Hammer
Psybolt Ammunition
Rhino
Searchlight

5 Purifiers (for objective holding)
Incinerator
Psycannon

10 Interceptors
2 Incinerators
Warding Stave
Daemon Hammer

Dreadnought
T/L Autocannon x2
Psybolt Ammunition

Dreadnought
T/L Autocannon x2
Psybolt Ammunition

I think it's what I'll end up using.

Crowe is actually surprisingly useful. The combination of Brotherhood Champion rules with Cleansing Flame is great for units like Banshees and Burnas (as the 10 Burnas who charged him in my last game can attest to... or maybe not!). Additionally, Heroic Sacrifice means charging him into a big baddy is actually a really good idea. He failed to hit Ghazghkull (even with the re-roll from charging!) in my last game, but I can definitely see his usefulness there. I do wish he had a 3++ rather than a 4++ in CC like a normal Champion, but I suppose you have to give up something for Cleansing Flame.

The Purifiers are just nasty. They can break any unit in the game through shooting w/ 4 Psycannons and Psybolt Storm Bolters, then in CC, they continue with the massacre. I forsee myself bumping up to 3 full squads, maybe even 4, as points go up. Very, very pleased with them.

The S8 Autocannon Dreads are another great unit. In my last game, they never missed a single shot. They just sat back and rained the shells until they die, which is difficult to do when they're all the way back in my own corner.

Vindicare hasn't impressed me yet, although there hasn't yet been a Land Raider across the table from me or an Iron Halo to break. It'll come eventually though.

The Interceptors do suffer somewhat from the same problem vanilla Assault Marines do, but giving a unit 2 Incinerators and a 30" shunt makes them nasssssssty. They made everything from Lootas to Heavy Weapons Teams go bye bye, while Devastators and Long Fangs merely end up traumatized from the experience.

Good read, turn it into a separate thread, others would very much appreciate it

Did some play testing my self, and I agree specifically with the incinerators on interceptors. Sure its a steep cost in points (46 points per model with incinerator ) but with no scatter and 30' shunts, any unit that doesnt like being set on fire...will be set on fire.

I am also liking servo skulls too, make for relatively safe DS, which is what GK need. No speed = no victory.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Has anyone else realized that... when taking a nemesis great sword, you dont actually replace both doomfists...only 1.

So you do lose the extra attack, but when needed, you still have str 10.

Shealyr's list seems interesting... I don't like much Crowe but I guess if you can charge with it cleansing flame + defensive stance will work well enough.

I was wondering though... is the psybolt ammo really worth it on purifiers? you pay 20 points to give it just to 6 guys...
Do you leave one purifiers with the sword?

And finally, what's the points of a single hammer in those squads? I've heard about hidden powerfists and the like but I never understood well what that meant...

[Edit: dunno how much useful would be but... What about a list with 3 techmarines, a gkgm and/or a brocap all with skulls and orbital strike... That's up to FIFTEEN str 6 ap 4 large blasts that scatter only D6"... Or you could got with the str 10 lance thing, though it uses the small blast... Seems quite a lot of firepower for a first turn attack, and it can be used later as well...]

Has anyone else realized that... when taking a nemesis great sword, you dont actually replace both doomfists...only 1.

So you do lose the extra attack, but when needed, you still have str 10.

You have to choose which one you'll use before attacks are made.

Also, in addition to the fists themselves being FAQ'd to actually... work... I'm wondering if they'll also be FAQ'd to give +1A with the sword, similar to how Librarian Dreads get +1A with their weapons.

GeckoOBac wrote:
I was wondering though... is the psybolt ammo really worth it on purifiers? you pay 20 points to give it just to 6 guys...

Depends on what you want the unit to be doing, really.

And finally, what's the points of a single hammer in those squads? I've heard about hidden powerfists and the like but I never understood well what that meant...

Basically, the single hammer is to take down armour and high toughness enemies. It's called 'hidden' because your opponent can't directly target it (wounds are allocated to entire units, not individual models), so you can make them very resiliant.

[Edit: dunno how much useful would be but... What about a list with 3 techmarines, a gkgm and/or a brocap all with skulls and orbital strike... That's up to FIFTEEN str 6 ap 4 large blasts that scatter only D6"... Or you could got with the str 10 lance thing, though it uses the small blast... Seems quite a lot of firepower for a first turn attack, and it can be used later as well...]

It's an interesting proposition (especially since I LOVE orbital bombardments, although I like them most when there's a chance it'll hit my own men), but it's not incredibly reliable, and the low body count (in an army that will already have problems keeping their numbers up), it'll be even easier to remove key models.

In apocalypse it could be the new leaf blower, and on a smaller scale it could be good, but otherwise its a very expensive and risky tactic.

On the subject of orbital bombardments:

Field Karamazov. Field a 5 man Interceptor squad
Shunt to parking lot.
Even if out of LOS, Karamazov can still target interceptor squad with lance strike due to barrage.
Cover 3 vehicles with lance strike, hopefully at least 1 land raider / leman russ or whatever.
Lance strike always hits vehicles at str 10, even if they arent centered. Lance strike is AP1 and is ordnance. No vehicle can survive that.
Interceptors die horribly, but make their points back 3 fold.

Jaon wrote:In apocalypse it could be the new leaf blower, and on a smaller scale it could be good, but otherwise its a very expensive and risky tactic.

On the subject of orbital bombardments:

Field Karamazov. Field a 5 man Interceptor squad
Shunt to parking lot.
Even if out of LOS, Karamazov can still target interceptor squad with lance strike due to barrage.
Cover 3 vehicles with lance strike, hopefully at least 1 land raider / leman russ or whatever.
Lance strike always hits vehicles at str 10, even if they arent centered. Lance strike is AP1 and is ordnance. No vehicle can survive that.
Interceptors die horribly, but make their points back 3 fold.

This requires >500 points of units to pull off correctly, and any Tau player can tell you that a single strength 10 AP 1 hit doesn't always take out a vehicle.

(In this particular scenario, the lance strike cannot scatter, so targets will be easy to fined, and with some coherency shenanigans, 3 interceptors can be out of the lance strikes blast all together. Remember: Shunt doesnt require you to land in DS formation.

Couple this tactic with landing your incinerator interceptor of the squad near some infantry and toasting them at the same time)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fetterkey wrote:

Jaon wrote:In apocalypse it could be the new leaf blower, and on a smaller scale it could be good, but otherwise its a very expensive and risky tactic.

On the subject of orbital bombardments:

Field Karamazov. Field a 5 man Interceptor squad
Shunt to parking lot.
Even if out of LOS, Karamazov can still target interceptor squad with lance strike due to barrage.
Cover 3 vehicles with lance strike, hopefully at least 1 land raider / leman russ or whatever.
Lance strike always hits vehicles at str 10, even if they arent centered. Lance strike is AP1 and is ordnance. No vehicle can survive that.
Interceptors die horribly, but make their points back 3 fold.

This requires >500 points of units to pull off correctly, and any Tau player can tell you that a single strength 10 AP 1 hit doesn't always take out a vehicle.

Strength 10 ap 1 ordnance lance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thats a pen on a 2d6choose1 3+, with possibilities for wreck on the glance table anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also..not sure how 130 points of interceptor and 200 points of karamazov = 500 points.

Jaon wrote:In apocalypse it could be the new leaf blower, and on a smaller scale it could be good, but otherwise its a very expensive and risky tactic.

On the subject of orbital bombardments:

Field Karamazov. Field a 5 man Interceptor squad
Shunt to parking lot.
Even if out of LOS, Karamazov can still target interceptor squad with lance strike due to barrage.
Cover 3 vehicles with lance strike, hopefully at least 1 land raider / leman russ or whatever.
Lance strike always hits vehicles at str 10, even if they arent centered. Lance strike is AP1 and is ordnance. No vehicle can survive that.
Interceptors die horribly, but make their points back 3 fold.

They are not barrages, which is kind daft I believe... The lance strike isn't an ordnance either. It's a lance though. Str 10 ap1 and lance should take care of just about anything (well... unless you get really unlucky on your damage roll).

[Edit: on another note I just noticed... Oh Em Gee... Holocaust is no more O_o ]

I may have to do some rereading


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok major face palm!

Lance strike is small blast. Ignore everything I have just said.


Looks like im going to have to rethink some tactics of mine.

Jaon wrote:
Also..not sure how 130 points of interceptor and 200 points of karamazov = 500 points.

For the tactic to work reliably you need to have a Grand Master to give the Interceptors Scout so you can attack while the enemy is still bunched in their deployment area. It is very difficult to hit multiple vehicles with one small blast once they move onto the field and begin maneuvering; in many cases it may not be possible to do even prior.

People seem to think that Mordrak is crap but I believe he is quite useful.

For +25 pts compared to a GM you get +1 W, +1 A, and a MC NDH which is worth 10 pts.
I know, on the first look he seems to be bad without IC status and his Knights lacking options.

But unlike a normal GM he does not suffer from the terminator transport syndrome. Be honest, if you want to add a GM for his Grand Strategy rule you'll face a serious problem:
The only available transports are Land Raiders, Storm Ravens, Chimeras or teleportation. The first two are just extremly expensive, with both beeing at least 200 pts. and while the Chimera seems to be a cheap option you gotta buy an Inquisitor and a Henchmen squad first and the henchmen will in turn lose their own transport while a chimera is not the best assault vehicle in existance anyway (neither fast nor durable). Normal Deep-Strikes just suck, you might arrive to late in combat, you can mishap or scatter AWAY from the enemy.

Mordrak comes with a fancy 1st turn auto deep strike without scatter rule which doesn't even cost points.
Just take Mordrak, 5 Ghost Knights with Banner and halberts (maybe one with a sword for the CC 4+ inv save) and add a fancy ordo xenos inquisitor with PA, plasma syphon, rad- and psychotroke nades. For 508 pts. you get a 9 wound Terminator squad with stealth (and hey, you can DS them right into cover without penalties, right next to the enemy sitting on his home objective) and 3 T3 3+ wounds which can soak up some small arms fire. You reduce any rapid firing plasma weapons (the nr.1 anti TDA-weapon) to BS1, will pwn any squad trying to charge you (rad+psycho grenades, 3-4 I6 PW, able to cast Hammerhand and auto passing Force Weapons the same turn, and at least 5 attacks with a hidden MC WS 6 hammer) and have a 3+ cover save against any meltas or lascans pointed at them (and these are weapons lacking serious rate of fire). And hey, you're even LS 10, stubborn and able to spawn additional terminators. You gotta pay at least 380 pts for a GM without upgrades and a as cheap as possible Storm Raven and you still have to add an upgraded squad for the HQ which will most likely take you beyond 600 or even 700+ pts for 5 GKT the GM, the storm raven and upgrades while the enemy is still able to pick and even Insta-kill the GM in CC and the squad is even less durable against shooting like the mentioned Mordrak squad is. With the pts. you saved not buying a transport (which is likely to get destroyed midfield thanks to the large numbers of ML, meltas, LC and AA-stuff on the table these days) you can add some additional dudes or upgrades to your low model count army. Of course you gotta use some 1st turn support units to prevent the your opponent from pumping his armies whole firepower into the Ghost-Knight unit but it should be self explanatory to field some scout-shunting units (like 2 DK). I guess 2 DK and a tough terminator-deathstar hitting you line turn 1 will give most armies some serious problems.

OH GOD that plasma syphon is nasty... Didn't notice it before. Really, the xenos inqui is looking more attractive by every minute... Not for itself but for the goodies it carries...

I wonder though, can it DS without termi armor?

GeckoOBac wrote:OH GOD that plasma syphon is nasty... Didn't notice it before. Really, the xenos inqui is looking more attractive by every minute... Not for itself but for the goodies it carries...

I wonder though, can it DS without termi armor?

He can if he joins Mordraks unit before deployment as any unit joined by Mordrak is able to use his Deep-Strike rule

No one can join Mordrak himself though, so you need Ghost Terminators there to make it work. Not sure why anyone would ever use Mordrak without them, but there you go.

Stavkat wrote:No one can join Mordrak himself though, so you need Ghost Terminators there to make it work. Not sure why anyone would ever use Mordrak without them, but there you go.

Yeah yeah, but as you already said there is no reason to EVER run Mordrak solo .

GeckoOBac wrote:Shealyr's list seems interesting... I don't like much Crowe but I guess if you can charge with it cleansing flame + defensive stance will work well enough.

I was wondering though... is the psybolt ammo really worth it on purifiers? you pay 20 points to give it just to 6 guys...
Do you leave one purifiers with the sword?

And finally, what's the points of a single hammer in those squads? I've heard about hidden powerfists and the like but I never understood well what that meant...

[Edit: dunno how much useful would be but... What about a list with 3 techmarines, a gkgm and/or a brocap all with skulls and orbital strike... That's up to FIFTEEN str 6 ap 4 large blasts that scatter only D6"... Or you could got with the str 10 lance thing, though it uses the small blast... Seems quite a lot of firepower for a first turn attack, and it can be used later as well...]

I like Psybolt Ammo more for it's ability to threaten low-AV vehicles and reliably wound MC's than a minor improvement versus MEQ. Remember, you won't always be lined up across from Marines. Also, don't think of it as "just 6 guys," think of it as "12 shots per turn, after moving 6." The range and Assault 2 of Storm Bolters make any improvement a great thing.

Hammers are 5 points on Purifiers, or 10 points on Strike Squads and Interceptors. Give it to the Justicar and you can master-craft it for 5 points. Especially on the Purifiers, 10 points for a Master-Crafted, potentially S10 Thunder Hammer is just unbeatable.

Well the point about threatening transports makes sense, with that amount of shots even just glancing hits will disable transports quite fast.

But let me see if I understood the logic behind the single hammer... Since it's not an IC it can't ever be targeted alone (well until the rest of the unit dies) and, hitting last will probably hit some of the important models in the enemy unit since they tend to be removed later. Is that it?

GeckoOBac wrote:Well the point about threatening transports makes sense, with that amount of shots even just glancing hits will disable transports quite fast.

But let me see if I understood the logic behind the single hammer... Since it's not an IC it can't ever be targeted alone (well until the rest of the unit dies) and, hitting last will probably hit some of the important models in the enemy unit since they tend to be removed later. Is that it?

More or less, yes. It's also there to make sure that the enemy can't just charge a walker into you and lock you up for the rest of the game with your guys having very low chances of glancing it to death if they have Kraks...

Also on the Daemon Hammer, master crafting it will let you re-roll when hitting vehicles. That's a really big deal when you need a 6 to hit that moving Land Raider, Leman Russ, or even a simple Rhino.

GeckoOBac wrote:Hammers are 5 points on Purifiers, or 10 points on Strike Squads and Interceptors. Give it to the Justicar and you can master-craft it for 5 points. Especially on the Purifiers, 10 points for a Master-Crafted, potentially S10 Thunder Hammer is just unbeatable.

Even better, for the +5 pts. you master-crraft ALL the weapons of the Knight of Flame. MC Krak Grenade for the win:
...And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O EMPEROR, bless this Thy hand grenade that with it Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits, in Thy mercy. First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch II towards thy foe, who being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it.