GW moving from metal to resin (confirmed by Harry)

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**ArbeitsSchu**

mikhaila wrote:
Loki_TBC wrote:
insaniak wrote:
The change to white metal was driven purely by the fact that it became illegal in some of their markets to sell figures with lead in them. Nothing to do with kids under 12, since they've always been marked as not suitable for anyone that age.

I know that it is not, and never was, illegal in the US. As a matter of fact, reaper just brought out the P65 line which conltains lead.

And you would be 100% wrong.

Years ago, a NY judge ruled that the sale and distribution of miniatures/toys with lead content was illegal. Somehow they also made it take effect immediately. Several other states started to follow suite. GW, Ral Partha, and other manufacturers scrambled to go to "white metal" , "ralidium", and other non-lead allows. Models became harder to work with and more expensive. Most of the existing lead miniatures got melted down. My buddy Chris called me when he took ove Ral Partha and found over two tons of lead miniatures, mostly battletech, that he couldn't sell.(

Over time the laws have changed, been rewritten, and re-examined. But that original ruling in NY abolutely changed how the industry worked. The P65 line is specifically for 'collectors' as a way to get around the problems with lead in toys.

Clearly he isn't 100% wrong then. It is obviously not illegal in the US to sell products with a lead content. By your own quote, it is simply illegal to sell TOYS with lead content. If one company can avoid that by making them for "Collectors" then any company willing to lose the "Child" market could turn back over to lead-content and buy cheaper metal.

Of course if idiots didn't eat the damn things, this wouldn't have been a problem in the first place, but what is done is done.

**notprop**

I'm pretty sure it can in with a whole raft of legilation in the UK that also resulted in Lead free petrol (Gas) and other things.

I would be suprised if one case in NY resulted in such a drastic change in GW. (not saying it isn't true though)

**NAVARRO**

I'm hoping this will be a good chance to at least keep metal details... if by any chance this will go the Rackham route it could be the turning point for me.

**andrewm9**

Kroothawk wrote:Yeah, who needs Tyranid Hive Guard?
Or Eldar ... anything?

They will get used to it. Sisters players have since their entire line is metal except for 1 1/2 tanks.

**Kroothawk**

Some minor updates:

Harry wrote:But if it helps ... metal is being replaced by resin, and it's being done at Lenton.(...)

For once I hope I am completely wrong and end up looking stupid for believing this.

But it is not just me saying this. I did not start this rumour and too many people (who are better informed than I am) have chimed in left right and center for me not to believe that this is happening.
(...)

Obviously this will be announced in a couple of months and even then after they stop metal production I imagine stuff will be available for a few more months whilst they shift remaining stocks. But what you don't get from GW (or wherever you get it from) in the next few months you will be left scrabbling around the interwebz trying to find it....and you will find it just like you can still pick up a copy of SpaceHulk. There will be pockets of metal all over the place for a while. You may even pick up some stuff cheap as indy retailers try to shift stocks. But some stuff will be hard to find. Especially recent metal ... as there will not be so much of that about.

I am sorry I have no words of comfort.

Archibald_TK wrote:At the beginning of the week we received an info from our GW national HQ that we shall not worry and the disappearing models will be once again available to independent retailers in the future in a "different format". As I said back there it means nothing and everything at the same time.

**Kilkrazy**

mikhaila wrote:
Loki_TBC wrote:
insaniak wrote:
The change to white metal was driven purely by the fact that it became illegal in some of their markets to sell figures with lead in them. Nothing to do with kids under 12, since they've always been marked as not suitable for anyone that age.

I know that it is not, and never was, illegal in the US. As a matter of fact, reaper just brought out the P65 line which conltains lead.

And you would be 100% wrong.

Years ago, a NY judge ruled that the sale and distribution of miniatures/toys with lead content was illegal. Somehow they also made it take effect immediately. Several other states started to follow suite. GW, Ral Partha, and other manufacturers scrambled to go to "white metal" , "ralidium", and other non-lead allows. Models became harder to work with and more expensive. Most of the existing lead miniatures got melted down. My buddy Chris called me when he took ove Ral Partha and found over two tons of lead miniatures, mostly battletech, that he couldn't sell.(

Over time the laws have changed, been rewritten, and re-examined. But that original ruling in NY abolutely changed how the industry worked. The P65 line is specifically for 'collectors' as a way to get around the problems with lead in toys.

Do you mean that GW could get around the ban by labelling their models something like "Collector's item, not a toy" ?

**mikhaila**

Kilkrazy wrote:
mikhaila wrote:
Loki_TBC wrote:
insaniak wrote:
The change to white metal was driven purely by the fact that it became illegal in some of their markets to sell figures with lead in them. Nothing to do with kids under 12, since they've always been marked as not suitable for anyone that age.

I know that it is not, and never was, illegal in the US. As a matter of fact, reaper just brought out the P65 line which conltains lead.

And you would be 100% wrong.

Years ago, a NY judge ruled that the sale and distribution of miniatures/toys with lead content was illegal. Somehow they also made it take effect immediately. Several other states started to follow suite. GW, Ral Partha, and other manufacturers scrambled to go to "white metal" , "ralidium", and other non-lead allows. Models became harder to work with and more expensive. Most of the existing lead miniatures got melted down. My buddy Chris called me when he took ove Ral Partha and found over two tons of lead miniatures, mostly battletech, that he couldn't sell.(

Over time the laws have changed, been rewritten, and re-examined. But that original ruling in NY abolutely changed how the industry worked. The P65 line is specifically for 'collectors' as a way to get around the problems with lead in toys.

Do you mean that GW could get around the ban by labelling their models something like "Collector's item, not a toy" ?

At the time, no. It hit pretty much everyone. From what I heard, the law passed was aimed squarely at metal miniatures, and was made to hurt by it's 'retroactive to today' wording. In any case, it sparked the entire change to lead free models. At the time, I had friends at GW, Ral Partha, Heartbreaker Hobbies, and Grenadier. All started the change over after the NY law hit. The dialog at the time was quite lively. It wasn't possible to sell lead free to some states and non lead to others, because of how distribution was set up.

Now, I think the problem is that no one wants to go back to using lead, as it's a bomb ticking away that could cripple their business. Reaper has experimented with it, but that's about it. "Lead" is just a bad word now, in many parts of the US.

**insaniak**

If nothing else, moving back to lead would be nothing more than a stop-gap. Sooner or later, everything will move to some sort of plastic...

**Kroothawk**

notprop wrote:I'm pretty sure it can in with a whole raft of legilation in the UK that also resulted in Lead free petrol (Gas) and other things.

I would be suprised if one case in NY resulted in such a drastic change in GW. (not saying it isn't true though)

You can find some nice background here http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=201028 saying that it all started with a messy divorce and the wife claiming the kids were poisoned by chewing on Dad's metal miniatures

:

BlackWidowPilot wrote:Well, for what it's worth to everyone, back in the Jurassic Era when this all took place I used to have a mail order retail business -Federation Armory- selling you guessed it, miniatures that contained *lead.*(...)

The plot thickened further afterwards when one of my regular customers – Mr. Dave Hornung- contacted me (or I him – 'twas looong ago now) and gave me a firsthand account of his actual testimony during the court hearing in which GAMA sought a Temporary Restraining Order (TRO) against the specific NY state government agency that had issued the lead miniatures ban. According to Dave, he gave testimony as a *hobbyist,* even though he was a lead abatement expert employed by the state of New York (!!!).

Dave schooled me on the actual know risks of lead miniatures (ie., nil), and dirty NY politics (messy, as one might expect of *any* politically motivated ban ordered by an double-salaried environmental protection "czar" under fire for his double salary and close political relationship with then NY Governor Mario Cuomo…), and a reportedly messy NY divorce (soon to be ex-wife allegedly accused soon to be ex-husband of making their children ill from letting the kids play with dad's painted lead miniatures) that said NY environmental czar caught wind of and jumped on as a pretty transparent IMHO cynical attempt to deflect the heat over his big at-the-public-expense paycheck.

According to Dave the two lawyers representing the State of NY hadn't even prepared a case brief – guess they and their boss thought they had a really soft target, and were visibly shocked by all of the people who turned up to defend the industry and our hobby, including a legal team hired by GAMA, Dave, and other witnesses who could string a coherent sentence together and make a rational case for following real science and not politically-motivated pseudo-scientific grandstanding…

According to Dave, the two attorneys for the State of NY were badly rattled by the courtroom beat-down they received on the first day's hearing, so much so that their lack of preparation visibly wore the patience of the presiding judge very thin indeed…

On day two of the hearing the judge granted the request for a TRO, putting an end to the ban until further notice. Sadly, the damage had already been done, as one or more major distributors who decided discretion was the better part of valor, unilaterally declared that they would cease carrying lead-based miniatures. The ripple effect in the industry was considerable, but that's another story.

Leland R. Erickson
Grayhawk Studios

**George Spiggott**

mikhaila wrote:At the time, no. It hit pretty much everyone. From what I heard, the law passed was aimed squarely at metal miniatures, and was made to hurt by it's 'retroactive to today' wording. In any case, it sparked the entire change to lead free models. At the time, I had friends at GW, Ral Partha, Heartbreaker Hobbies, and Grenadier. All started the change over after the NY law hit. The dialog at the time was quite lively. It wasn't possible to sell lead free to some states and non lead to others, because of how distribution was set up.

Now, I think the problem is that no one wants to go back to using lead, as it's a bomb ticking away that could cripple their business. Reaper has experimented with it, but that's about it. "Lead" is just a bad word now, in many parts of the US.

Rackham's minis contained lead right up until they changed over to the plastic ones. I don't know if they were available in the US or even if they were subject to some packaging modification. In the UK their packaging warning was similar to the GW one but included the additional phrase 'contains lead'.

**Scottywan82**

So do we have any idea when this switch is happening? When we'll start to see the first resin figures?

**Kilkrazy**

Mid to late May, if the rumours are correct.

**LunaHound**

Well the price lower if the resin is cheaper to make for GW?

How about stripping and scrubbing? are resins durable enough compared to metal?

**Sidstyler**

LunaHound wrote:Well the price lower if the resin is cheaper to make for GW?

How about stripping and scrubbing? are resins durable enough compared to metal?

1. LOL. No.

2. No, resin is a little more fragile. Should be slightly easier to file/clean than metal models at least.

**Kroothawk**

Sidstyler wrote:. No, resin is a little more fragile. Should be slightly easier to file/clean than metal models at least.

... once you get used to the hazard suit, that is

**Kanluwen**

Resin just requires Simple Green to be cleaned, same as plastic or metal.

**Sersi**

Heck, working with resin isn't that hard. You just need to have the right tools, is all.

First, get a set of Rio Rondo "carbide scrapers" you would even need to create any dust 99% of the time. You can also use a single edge razor to make clean "guillotine" style cuts when taking parts off the sprue. It causes less stress when shearing parts away, so they don't break or shatter. For cleaning a soak them in simple green and lightly scrub them with a soft toothbrush. Done.

Oh, and you can get those Rio Rondo scrapers here: http://www.riorondo.com/

**NAVARRO**

LunaHound wrote:Well the price lower if the resin is cheaper to make for GW?

l

Have you ever seen a 28mm resin cheaper then 28mm metal in our little miniature industry? You should espect a price rise.

**Kilkrazy**

Resin usually costs more because the casting is more of a handwork job than metal. You can't prepare large batches of resin because it will start to cure before you can fill all your moulds.

The rate of defects is higher, and miscasts can't be recycled. Bad metal is just melted and re-used.

Resin uses some nasty chemicals and requires good safety methods.

The moulds for resin don't last as long.

I assume that GW have improved on some of these aspects in order to increase productivity.

Also, I expect they will be casting on demand. You will order a model. It will be cast in a day or two and sent directly to your house or nearest GW shop.

This will eliminate the problem they currently have of tons of expensive metal sitting in their supply chain.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am moving this thread to Discussions.

We have got completely off the original News (my fault as much as anyone's) do it is now more of an ongoing discussion thead.

**RiTides**

I still crave more details Kroothawk / others in the know. If you find them can you post them somewhere easier to find than in the midst of this massive thread

**The Decapitator**

I was quite intrigued to see on the UK GW website that the Space Marine Chaplain in Terminator Armour was priced at £8.20. Not only this but it said that the expected shipping date was between 3 to 4 weeks! It made me wonder whether either A) The price was wrong. B) The price had been lowered to clear surplus stock in expectation of a possible switch in casting materials. C) The materials have already changed and were somehow cheaper to produce the model. Or D) An apology on behalf of GW that there was going to be a substantial delay for the model for various reasons so the price reduced to compensate for this. Not sure if anyone can confirm this or not but I'm pretty sure that this particular model was priced higher than £8.20 up until recently, as it's a sizeable figure and in line with other similar sized models priced around the £10-£12.00 Mark.

Also with regards to the delay in GW dispatching the model, I'm inclined to now believe that this is due to a casting material change. I have been hesitant to believe that GW will be swapping from White metal to a Resin/Resin-Plastic Hybrid, but upon seeing this on the website, I'm struggling to think of any reason why such a popular and well designed minature would be subject to such a prolonged delay from time of order to delivery. Even older models which have been direct order only for a long time and which don't sell in very big numbers don't seem to be subject to this time frame. So it leaves me wondering whether this 'materials change' will come about a lot sooner than we think, especially for the more popular metal minis, and that we shall start seeing the new models produced in a new material within the next couple of weeks.

Of course I could be completely wrong, and maybe GW have had a problem with this particular mini, but judging by this thread and others I'm inclined to think otherwise. I myself don't have a problem with resin as such, but due to it's potential hazards for new users and younger hobbyists I'd be surprised if it was the same resin to which we are all used to. Here's hoping that it will be a new type of resin/hybrid which will provide better strength, be less brittle and not suffer from any potential carcinogenic effects should the dust be inhaled.

If not, then I think this may cause some serious issues for GW and I really hope that this fear isn't realised. I really do hope that this worry is just that, a worry, and that this potential changeover could be the start of something good.

**Mr. Burning**

I haven't got the time to look through all 11 pages, so, forgive me if this has been asked.

What will happen to exiting collectors ranges and slow selling metals?

Do we think that these will stay as metal pieces i.e. Rough Riders Space Marine through the ages, Mordians etc or will they eventually go the way of the Dodo? - No point in keeping metal around if everything else is resin based?

**insaniak**

I would expect that the 'collectors' range will just disappear as stocks run down.

Unless the resin process that GW are adopting uses the same moulds, I can't see it being worth their while in most cases to spend the time making new moulds for out of date figures.

**Fearspect**

Umm... who's Harry?

**Kilkrazy**

There are similar models still available in metal for £8.20.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440271a&prodId=prod1570031

however that does not disprove your point.

If materials are changing, GW have to stop production of the metal versions. They can either sell through the remaining packaged stock or recall and melt down the models for scrap. The decision would be based on the most cost-effective method.

I am sure no-one would complain if GW reduced prices to reflect cheaper materials. Their policy for years, though, has been to steadily increase prices faster than inflation regardless of materials costs.

They probably would decide to change that if they had good cause to believe that prices had reached a level to turn customers away. There has been evidence for several years of falling unit sales, so perhaps this is not fantasy.

Logic dictates that toy soldiers will not have the price inflexibility of an item like insulin.

**Lunchb0x**

I hope they dont discontinue Necromunda or Mordheim figures!!! Nor my 2nd ed IG !!!

**Howard A Treesong**

insaniak wrote:I would expect that the 'collectors' range will just disappear as stocks run down.

Unless the resin process that GW are adopting uses the same moulds, I can't see it being worth their while in most cases to spend the time making new moulds for out of date figures.

I think this is a very real possibility. There's no reason they can't maintain metal casting for the purposes of doing the older collectors range, but I don't think they will see it that way and I'm quite concerned that the remnants of Specialist Games won't survive this.

**-Loki-**

I thought the whole point of switching to the resin they're using is because ut can be fed through the metal spin casting machines and can use the same molds? If so, there's no reason to expect any metal ranges to go completely out of print.

**Howard A Treesong**

-Loki- wrote:I thought the whole point of switching to the resin they're using is because ut can be fed through the metal spin casting machines and can use the same molds? If so, there's no reason to expect any metal ranges to go completely out of print.

I think it's been the suspicion for a while that the current supplies of SG stuff are old stock, they may not see the worth in casting more. They'll run down the current stock and discontinue them.

**Kilkrazy**

I imagine the sales of specialist games, associated figures, and collector's figures (Necromunda, etc.) are minute compared to the sales of SM.

GW's last effort to market any of the specialist games was when they sacked the Blood Bowl living rulebook committee and shut down all the fan web sites a couple of Christmases ago.

It's hardly a ringing endorsement.