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Dysartes wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:I'd just like an increased level of customisation and restrictions on mixing marks. Khorne and Tzeentch teaming up... *vomits*

While Khorne may believe Tzeentch to be weak due to his reliance on magic, there has never been the animosity that there is between Khorne and Slaanesh.

Yes, I don't understand why people think Khorne should hate Tzeentch as much as he hates Slaanesh. C'mon people, know your Realms of Chaos books. Slaves to the Darkness is Khorne and Slaanesh, not Khorne and Tzeentch.


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chaos0xomega wrote:<Snipped cool stuff>

Well gak, if they made the current codex LatD I'd be happier than a dog licking its own butt. Just so you know.

metalboxes wrote:Tastytaste has posted some interesting speculation (wink) (his words) about how legion customization may work in an article over on Blood of kittens. I've quoted the relevant section below.

Perhaps GW could take a page from RPGs or MMOs to design armies that look a lot like skill trees. Envision (wink) say the next CSM codex looking something like this…
Start with a Chaos Lord and depending on how you kit him, he unlocks certain ways you can play your army. Image an Iron Warriors Lord that gives you cheaper Predators and Vindicators or special abilities for your tanks. At the same time that Iron Warrior Lord can only get certain units because of the track he is on. More so the lieutenants (chosen) are customized to lead basic troopers in different ways as well. This is (of course) highly speculative, but it would be new and fun way for players to design armies. It would be a win-win for most players. Fluffy players could make unique armies based on a personal vision and competitive list builders would dive right in, finding the most killy combinations.

I find this a cool concept, as while customization is determined by HQ choice, in such a system you aren't stuck with running the same special character all the time, and it could allow for very fluffy and characterful customizations.

What Tastytaste is mentioning as a tiered system I talked about on Capture and Control on June 24th while wish listing. I hope his rumors are true because what I wish listed on there was similar and I really would like a more complex tiered system to decide just how renegade you are. Not sure it would come to light but a more diverse (complex?) system of making your CSM list would be a breathe of fresh air as opposed to the stale winds of the current dex.

Im curious if it will be legion based on Daemon powers Ie the Big four or if it will have actual Legion rules for say the Alpha Legion.
As an Alpha Legion player Im kind of hanging out.
Will be interesting to see.

GAZ_NZ wrote:Im curious if it will be legion based on Daemon powers Ie the Big four or if it will have actual Legion rules for say the Alpha Legion.
As an Alpha Legion player Im kind of hanging out.
Will be interesting to see.

I'd speculate that any Legion codex would primarily focus on the " Big four" , but also include list for the other Legions as well, with the possible exception of the Black Legion, as they can already be easily represented by the current Codex.

FITZZ wrote:

GAZ_NZ wrote:Im curious if it will be legion based on Daemon powers Ie the Big four or if it will have actual Legion rules for say the Alpha Legion.
As an Alpha Legion player Im kind of hanging out.
Will be interesting to see.

I'd speculate that any Legion codex would primarily focus on the " Big four" , but also include list for the other Legions as well, with the possible exception of the Black Legion, as they can already be easily represented by the current Codex.

I hope it doesn't focus just on the big four. If they are going to do that they may as well re-release 3.5 with everything taking a 15% cut on points costs. While many CSM players may not be opposed to such a thing I certainly hope, if GW decides to do a Chaos Legions book they will give ample and equal attention to all the traitor legions. Otherwise it is sort of a misnomer calling it Codex: Chaos Legions. I do agree though that Black Legion probably doesn't need to be in the new book since the current one is basically Codex: Black Legion anyway.

OverwatchCNC wrote:

FITZZ wrote:

GAZ_NZ wrote:Im curious if it will be legion based on Daemon powers Ie the Big four or if it will have actual Legion rules for say the Alpha Legion.
As an Alpha Legion player Im kind of hanging out.
Will be interesting to see.

I'd speculate that any Legion codex would primarily focus on the " Big four" , but also include list for the other Legions as well, with the possible exception of the Black Legion, as they can already be easily represented by the current Codex.

I hope it doesn't focus just on the big four. If they are going to do that they may as well re-release 3.5 with everything taking a 15% cut on points costs. While many CSM players may not be opposed to such a thing I certainly hope, if GW decides to do a Chaos Legions book they will give ample and equal attention to all the traitor legions. Otherwise it is sort of a misnomer calling it Codex: Chaos Legions. I do agree though that Black Legion probably doesn't need to be in the new book since the current one is basically Codex: Black Legion anyway.

Don't misunderstand, I definitaly hope that the Iron Warriors,Alpha Legion, Word Bearers and Night Lords Legions all get equal time, I just believe that focus may fall mostly upon the " big four"...
Of course at this point everything is speculative...including plans for a "Legions Codex" itself.

IF there is a CODEX: TRAITOR LEGIONS I fully expect that it will detail ALL of them.

Maybe the 'Big 4' get most of the coverage, but the Undivideds will get theirs too, I'm sure!

H.B.M.C. wrote:Uhh... can we please not tie everything to HQ characters.

But how are they gonna sell HQ models?



I welcome some new chaos goodness, provided they actually deliver goodness, and not more meh-ness.


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Alpharius wrote:IF there is a CODEX: TRAITOR LEGIONS I fully expect that it will detail ALL of them.

Maybe the 'Big 4' get most of the coverage, but the Undivideds will get theirs too, I'm sure!

I hope so.

I got back into 40k about 6 months ago and after selling nearly everything i had i decided to go back to one of my old loves CSM!

I checked online and people constantly berrated the CSM codex but it didnt put me off as i love the Chaos legions so much more than the loyalist lapdogs.

I play Iron Warriors as many others do but my main troops choices are Khorne Berzerkers and the other CSM players i have seen recently usually play with Plague marines as troops. Id like to take more normal CSM and be a bit more undivided but i just dont see any incentive to do so with the current codex.

I think in the new book there should be perks for taking a certain legion like cheaper vehicles for IW, Cultists for AL, better close combat troops for Khorne etc . I like being able to pick any unit and it works well but i would like some specialisation.

I think that type of setup is counter to the approach GW's been taking lately.

FITZZ wrote:
Don't misunderstand, I definitely hope that the Iron Warriors,Alpha Legion, Word Bearers and Night Lords Legions all get equal time, I just believe that focus may fall mostly upon the " big four"...
Of course at this point everything is speculative...including plans for a "Legions Codex" itself.

I think the "big four" will get more attention just because they're identity is so directly tied to the units of their specific gods, giving them an initially greater volume of focus. I want to see the other five get attention as well, but its hard to believe that even in a Legion centric codex will be able to go far enough to balance all the legions. The big 4 each have a unit characteristic of it and the others 5 would need as much. Add to that the desire of many to see the inclusion of elite forms of those as well as dedicated vehicles... that just makes it a greater uphill fight for balance for the other five. I think it will take the undivided legions gaining access to units like cultists and a diverse selection of daemon engines to balance things.

I’d make a guess that the legions codex would probably use a HQ Chapter tactics type mechanic (ala SM codex) to represent the 9 different legions. The big 5 would get marks of chaos and the remaining 4 would get either a re-roll or a USR instead.

For example:
• Black Legion: Mark of Chaos Undivided
• World Eaters: Mark of Khorne
• Death Guard: Mark of Nurgle
• Emperors Children: Mark of Slaanesh
• Thousand Sons: Mark of Tzeentch
• Alpha Legion: Infiltrators
• Iron Warriors: Re-roll of some kind
• Word Bearers: Re-roll of some kind
• Night Lords: Acute Senses

What would be interesting is to see how GW differentiates the Legion Codex from the Renegades codex in the final product. I reckon the Legions codex might be a smaller, elite type army like SW and GK whereas the Renegades ruleset would probably have a lot of parallels with the SM codex.

candy.man wrote:I’d make a guess that the legions codex would probably use a HQ Chapter tactics type mechanic (ala SM codex) to represent the 9 different legions. The big 5 would get marks of chaos and the remaining 4 would get either a re-roll or a USR instead.

For example:
• Black Legion: Mark of Chaos Undivided
• World Eaters: Mark of Khorne
• Death Guard: Mark of Nurgle
• Emperors Children: Mark of Slaanesh
• Thousand Sons: Mark of Tzeentch
• Alpha Legion: Infiltrators
• Iron Warriors: Re-roll of some kind
• Word Bearers: Re-roll of some kind
• Night Lords: Acute Senses

What would be interesting is to see how GW differentiates the Legion Codex from the Renegades codex in the final product. I reckon the Legions codex might be a smaller, elite type army like SW and GK whereas the Renegades ruleset would probably have a lot of parallels with the SM codex.

I think it would be a bit more complicated then that... I imagine there would be some sort of Force Org reshuffling involved, special wargear/units, etc.

chaos0xomega wrote:

candy.man wrote:I’d make a guess that the legions codex would probably use a HQ Chapter tactics type mechanic (ala SM codex) to represent the 9 different legions. The big 5 would get marks of chaos and the remaining 4 would get either a re-roll or a USR instead.

For example:
• Black Legion: Mark of Chaos Undivided
• World Eaters: Mark of Khorne
• Death Guard: Mark of Nurgle
• Emperors Children: Mark of Slaanesh
• Thousand Sons: Mark of Tzeentch
• Alpha Legion: Infiltrators
• Iron Warriors: Re-roll of some kind
• Word Bearers: Re-roll of some kind
• Night Lords: Acute Senses

What would be interesting is to see how GW differentiates the Legion Codex from the Renegades codex in the final product. I reckon the Legions codex might be a smaller, elite type army like SW and GK whereas the Renegades ruleset would probably have a lot of parallels with the SM codex.

I think it would be a bit more complicated then that... I imagine there would be some sort of Force Org reshuffling involved, special wargear/units, etc.

yes definitely some sort of bonuses and swapping in the Force Org, but I don't think Night Lords should just have acute senses I think something a long the lines of fear tactics. Like enemies who are forced to take a morale test take it at -1 accumulative of coarse.

Achaylus72 wrote:
I have heard many rumours that are these and the month released

Imperial/Chaos Warhound Titan (September)
Chaos v Dark Eldar Box Set (September)
Summer of Flyers (September)
Sisters of Battle (Full Codex and all Finecast and Plastic range release (September) Rumour version 1
Necron Codex and complete overhaul (September)
Tau Codex and complete overhaul (November)
Sisters of Battle (Full Codex and all Finecast and Plastic range release (January) Rumour version 2
Space Hulk IV (September)
Bloodbowl (September)
Necromunda (October)
Chaos Legions Codex (September)

These are only the tip of the Iceberg. No one exept the top guys at GW knows what is scheduled to be released, the rest of us know jack crap.

That would be a spectacular schedule. However...way too many rumors for Sept...its pretty well settled something is happening in Sept, the question is which 1 of those will come to be. More Space Hulk...nah, Bloodbowl, even bigger nah, Necomunda...never gonna happen, simply because so many people actually want it to.

I think it's going to be very interesting to see what design decisions are made.

I mean, I hear you guys on all 9 Legions in one book, but if you consider what content that requires, I think that just adds up to everything the current CSM book has plus a ton of extra material. Which is fine, but it'd probably eliminate the need for the current book, right? Why have Codex: Legions and Codex: Legions Light? Who'd play the Light version?

Maybe the WD update will be a major overhaul of the current CSM book. *shrug* Still, it's hard to imagine GW making it radically different. At that point the path of least resistance would be to call the new Legions book Codex: CSM, cancel the old one and do a WD army list for whatever it is they want. Which I suppose might happen since these are only rumors. Who knows?

IMO, Black Legion are also a tricky thing. Past treatment has been that they're the Ultramarines of Chaos...but does that really do them justice, especially in the wake of the HH books in which the Luna Wolves were so prominently featured? Seems to me they're more like the GK of Chaos...the best of the best (baddest of the baddest?). I'd really like to see them fleshed out as an entity instead of being treated as Chaos generics. They're Horus's elite...I don't think they should pale beside the WB, DG, EC, etc.

Mad4Minis wrote:

Achaylus72 wrote:
I have heard many rumours that are these and the month released

Imperial/Chaos Warhound Titan (September)
Chaos v Dark Eldar Box Set (September)
Summer of Flyers (September)
Sisters of Battle (Full Codex and all Finecast and Plastic range release (September) Rumour version 1
Necron Codex and complete overhaul (September)
Tau Codex and complete overhaul (November)
Sisters of Battle (Full Codex and all Finecast and Plastic range release (January) Rumour version 2
Space Hulk IV (September)
Bloodbowl (September)
Necromunda (October)
Chaos Legions Codex (September)

These are only the tip of the Iceberg. No one exept the top guys at GW knows what is scheduled to be released, the rest of us know jack crap.

That would be a spectacular schedule. However...way too many rumors for Sept...its pretty well settled something is happening in Sept, the question is which 1 of those will come to be. More Space Hulk...nah, Bloodbowl, even bigger nah, Necomunda...never gonna happen, simply because so many people actually want it to.

Games Day is actually running Specialist Games Intros this year, so perhaps there is some hope for this even if the dates aren't correct.

gorgon wrote:I think it's going to be very interesting to see what design decisions are made.

I mean, I hear you guys on all 9 Legions in one book, but if you consider what content that requires, I think that just adds up to everything the current CSM book has plus a ton of extra material. Which is fine, but it'd probably eliminate the need for the current book, right? Why have Codex: Legions and Codex: Legions Light? Who'd play the Light version?

Agreed. This is why I think if Codex: Legions ever happens, it will be within the context of a more comprehensive chaos revamp, where GW eventually revisits the Renegade book and inserts more to make that book distinctive while allowing the game designers to explore other rogue chapters like the Relicators while bringing in more unique special characters to personify these other renegade ex-loyalists. I think this would be the best place to bring in LatD... such that the book doesn't just represent rogue marines but all renegade ex-loyalist.

gorgon wrote:
IMO, Black Legion are also a tricky thing. Past treatment has been that they're the Ultramarines of Chaos...but does that really do them justice, especially in the wake of the HH books in which the Luna Wolves were so prominently featured? Seems to me they're more like the GK of Chaos...the best of the best (baddest of the baddest?). I'd really like to see them fleshed out as an entity instead of being treated as Chaos generics. They're Horus's elite...I don't think they should pale beside the WB, DG, EC, etc.

I think how Black Legion get done will depend on how structured the codex represents the other legions. For example, if the codex takes the more open approach where every unit is available to every faction and its only a matter of Legions having greater access through FOC or just "counts as scoring type rules"... that doesn't leave much for the Black Legion; in that situation I could imagine Black Legion being able to have Veteran squads as troop choices or something similar to distinguish them (though I'm assuming Veteran chaos marines will improve).

I call BS on Bloodbowl and Necromunda coming back. It's just too good to be true.

And while we're talking Chaos, I never understood why GW don't treat CSM the way they do the SM chapters. If we can have extra books for Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels und Space Wolves, why not do something similar with Chaos?

And while we're talking Chaos, I never understood why GW don't treat CSM the way they do the SM chapters. If we can have extra books for Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels und Space Wolves, why not do something similar with Chaos?

It's easy to understand. Economics and resource management.

gorgon wrote:I think it's going to be very interesting to see what design decisions are made.

I mean, I hear you guys on all 9 Legions in one book, but if you consider what content that requires, I think that just adds up to everything the current CSM book has plus a ton of extra material. Which is fine, but it'd probably eliminate the need for the current book, right? Why have Codex: Legions and Codex: Legions Light? Who'd play the Light version?

Maybe the WD update will be a major overhaul of the current CSM book. *shrug* Still, it's hard to imagine GW making it radically different. At that point the path of least resistance would be to call the new Legions book Codex: CSM, cancel the old one and do a WD army list for whatever it is they want. Which I suppose might happen since these are only rumors. Who knows?

IMO, Black Legion are also a tricky thing. Past treatment has been that they're the Ultramarines of Chaos...but does that really do them justice, especially in the wake of the HH books in which the Luna Wolves were so prominently featured? Seems to me they're more like the GK of Chaos...the best of the best (baddest of the baddest?). I'd really like to see them fleshed out as an entity instead of being treated as Chaos generics. They're Horus's elite...I don't think they should pale beside the WB, DG, EC, etc.

Whilst I didn't think it possible beforehand, I personally managed to fit the Legions & Renegades quite comfortably into my Chaos Space Marine Fandex. All the information (with only a couple of bits of background) needed to play the game such as rules, stats etc. took less than 60 pages, so with the Space Marine Codex numbering 150+ IIRC, it shouldn't be that hard to include them.

I don't see however how they'd create the Legions Codex and still keep the existing Codex in use.
Personally, I don't think it will be a specifically Legions Codex, but just Codex Chaos Space Marines, but obviously better than it is now...

Regarding BL, they're not really the best of the best and they really are more like the Ultramarines as the poster boys of Chaos. I think GW would be better focussing on their dedication to all gods, how after the HH they almost collapsed as they worshipped all gods with a vast number of Possessed etc. almost destroying themselves. I think GW would do best to focus on their efforts to rebuild their Legion whilst taking the fight to the Imperium that defeated them whilst simultaneously trying to rally the other Chaos Space Marines who might otherwise sit around on their asses.

candy.man wrote:I’d make a guess that the legions codex would probably use a HQ Chapter tactics type mechanic (ala SM codex) to represent the 9 different legions. The big 5 would get marks of chaos and the remaining 4 would get either a re-roll or a USR instead.

Considering the fact that C:SM has 11 special characters, 6 of which have Chapter Tactics, they could very easily use this mechanic to represent the 9 different founding legions that turned to Chaos. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

Death By Monkeys wrote:

candy.man wrote:I’d make a guess that the legions codex would probably use a HQ Chapter tactics type mechanic (ala SM codex) to represent the 9 different legions. The big 5 would get marks of chaos and the remaining 4 would get either a re-roll or a USR instead.

Considering the fact that C:SM has 11 special characters, 6 of which have Chapter Tactics, they could very easily use this mechanic to represent the 9 different founding legions that turned to Chaos. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

If they followed suit with your suggestion it wouldn't be too bad. I would still hope for specific legion books. For example a Sepreate book for World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard,a nd emporers children. The rest can be in CSM: Legions and that would be good.

Death By Monkeys wrote:

candy.man wrote:I’d make a guess that the legions codex would probably use a HQ Chapter tactics type mechanic (ala SM codex) to represent the 9 different legions. The big 5 would get marks of chaos and the remaining 4 would get either a re-roll or a USR instead.

Considering the fact that C:SM has 11 special characters, 6 of which have Chapter Tactics, they could very easily use this mechanic to represent the 9 different founding legions that turned to Chaos. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

Same here, and while it isn't the best way of going about it, it will 'get the job done' and will most likely be the road that they take.

(H.B.M.C incoming!!! )

They have to read JustDave's fandex then. That's the way to go, simpler, and offers far more flavor.

iproxtaco wrote:They have to read JustDave's fandex then. That's the way to go, simpler, and offers far more flavor.

I have and disagree just not the thread to talk about it in.

Alpharius wrote:

Death By Monkeys wrote:

candy.man wrote:I’d make a guess that the legions codex would probably use a HQ Chapter tactics type mechanic (ala SM codex) to represent the 9 different legions. The big 5 would get marks of chaos and the remaining 4 would get either a re-roll or a USR instead.

Considering the fact that C:SM has 11 special characters, 6 of which have Chapter Tactics, they could very easily use this mechanic to represent the 9 different founding legions that turned to Chaos. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

Same here, and while it isn't the best way of going about it, it will 'get the job done' and will most likely be the road that they take.
(H.B.M.C incoming!!! )

Seems like the most obvious choice. Not sure I'm big fan though. Now every Death Guard army has to field Typhus? Every Tzeentch army will field Ariman?

It would be interesting though, to see what other characters they come up with. Looking forward to the IW and WB special characters.

Considering that Death Guard are a specific formation, with a specific warleader...that's not really a big deal.

Now, if any Nurgle warband had to take Typhus then yes there would be a problem.

Just like the Nurgle not necessarily needing Typhus example I just gave, not every Tzeentch army should need to take Ahriman, but any Thousand Sons force should.

Kanluwen wrote:Considering that Death Guard are a specific formation, with a specific warleader...that's not really a big deal.

Now, if any Nurgle warband had to take Typhus then yes there would be a problem.

I suppose the problem would be, if only fielding Typhus would make Plague Marines troop choices. But even if only fielding Typhus would give you the ability to use, let's say, Plague Marine Havocs instead, you're choices would be severy limited in smaller games.

This comes, btw., from someone who's been playing Deathguard for over 7 years now.

Anung Un Rama wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Considering that Death Guard are a specific formation, with a specific warleader...that's not really a big deal.

Now, if any Nurgle warband had to take Typhus then yes there would be a problem.

I suppose the problem would be, if only fielding Typhus would make Plague Marines troop choices. But even if only fielding Typhus would give you the ability to use, let's say, Plague Marine Havocs instead, you're choices would be severy limited in smaller games.

This comes, btw., from someone who's been playing Deathguard for over 7 years now.

Better option.
If using Typhus, Plague Marines gain a kind of 'Legion Trait' ability that your "generic" Plague Marines do not have.

Well i hope that you get a very customizable codex. My 2nd 40K venture is after all in Thousand Son