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Alpharius wrote:(H.B.M.C incoming!!! )

Yeah, I started to make a remark on that in my post and then figured it was better if I just didn't go there.

Kanluwen wrote:not every Tzeentch army should need to take Ahriman, but any Thousand Sons force should.

Really, even the TS loyal to Magnus?

Which is why I hope they go more along the lines of Lord with mark (x) gets you (y).

Taking special characters would then get you that plus something else, at a cost of course!

LavuranGuard wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:not every Tzeentch army should need to take Ahriman, but any Thousand Sons force should.

Really, even the TS loyal to Magnus?

Does Magnus even do anything anymore?

I can't think of him doing anything outside of brooding. Ahriman is the only member of the Thousand Sons who is active, and is always reported alongside his automaton styled brethren.

Alpharius wrote:Which is why I hope they go more along the lines of Lord with mark (x) gets you (y).

Taking special characters would then get you that plus something else, at a cost of course!

That would be an excellent system for Chaos. Make those special characters mean something for those 200-250 points, but also allow someone to make a useful or fluffy Nurgle or Khorne army without a named character.

Kanluwen wrote:

LavuranGuard wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:not every Tzeentch army should need to take Ahriman, but any Thousand Sons force should.

Really, even the TS loyal to Magnus?

Does Magnus even do anything anymore?

I can't think of him doing anything outside of brooding. Ahriman is the only member of the Thousand Sons who is active, and is always reported alongside his automaton styled brethren.

Just thinking of Battle of the Fang which has Sorcerors and Rubrics working for Magnus rather than the exiled Ahriman so I'm assuming a TS army could be a faction following either of these 2 prime movers.

LavuranGuard wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

LavuranGuard wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:not every Tzeentch army should need to take Ahriman, but any Thousand Sons force should.

Really, even the TS loyal to Magnus?

Does Magnus even do anything anymore?

I can't think of him doing anything outside of brooding. Ahriman is the only member of the Thousand Sons who is active, and is always reported alongside his automaton styled brethren.

Just thinking of Battle of the Fang which has Sorcerors and Rubrics working for Magnus rather than the exiled Ahriman so I'm assuming a TS army could be a faction following either of these 2 prime movers.

Battle of the Fang is supposed to take place not that long after the Heresy, which likely means that Ahriman hasn't been "Exiled" yet.

It, if I remember right(and I might not be because it's been awhile since I read up on Ahriman), wasn't an overnight thing after the Rubric happened. There were several "cure" attempts done by Ahriman before Magnus finally sent him away.

But honestly, when one thinks of the Thousand Sons now--you think of Ahriman and his Cabal leading their empty-armored brothers to war, not Magnus and his lot that just stay on the Planet of Sorcerers for the most part.

I support whatever GW does to move away from the requirement of named SC. It gets pretty boring when every X army is lead by X character...or a "counts as" army that is essentially the same.

I do like the inclusion of named SC as options, but making them essentially a requirement is just dumb.

I just hope that cultists will be back.

Kanluwen wrote:not every Tzeentch army should need to take Ahriman, but any Thousand Sons force should.

Uhh... no. More than no. No x Infinity +1.

Ahriman doesn't lead every 1KSons force, so no, he shouldn't lead 1KSons forces.

Making Legion armies require Special Characters is simply daft. Every Emperor's Children force requiring Lucius would be absurd. Even more absurd would be any World Eater force requiring Kharn.


The World Eaters/Death Guard/Emperor's Children/Thousand Sons/Word Bearers/Iron Warriors/Alpha Legion/Night Lords are more than just a named special character and a special rule. Far, far more than that.

Kanluwen wrote:Considering that Death Guard are a specific formation, with a specific warleader...that's not really a big deal.

This I have to hear:

Tell us Kan, why are the Death Guard a specific formation now and not a Traitor Legion?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:not every Tzeentch army should need to take Ahriman, but any Thousand Sons force should.

Uhh... no. More than no. No x Infinity +1.

Ahriman doesn't lead every 1KSons force, so no, he shouldn't lead 1KSons forces.

Making Legion armies require Special Characters is simply daft. Every Emperor's Children force requiring Lucius would be absurd. Even more absurd would be any World Eater force requiring Kharn.


The World Eaters/Death Guard/Emperor's Children/Thousand Sons/Word Bearers/Iron Warriors/Alpha Legion/Night Lords are more than just a named special character and a special rule. Far, far more than that.

[

Agreed. Requiring a named SC you may as well make it herohammer 40k...because at that point it would be just a hero and his personal guard. A huge part of the 40k fluff is that the universe is huge. Named SCs cant be everywhere at the same time, and Im sure there is more than one 1k sons battle going at any given time, especially since 40k represents small unit actions not grand battles.

The vast majority of fighting going on wont have a named SC in it, and the rules should allow that to be reflected.

Alpharius wrote:Which is why I hope they go more along the lines of Lord with mark (x) gets you (y).

Taking special characters would then get you that plus something else, at a cost of course!

This is spot on and what should happen in an ideal scenario. Since the 3.5 codex and the current vanilla codex all had FOC altering mechanics based on generic HQs, this will most likely be present in some form the next book. I’m guessing that SCs would probably provide a chapter tactics type bonus to the army if taken. This would essentially create a two tiered scenario where with a generic Nurgle HQ you get a generic Nurgle force and with Typhus you get a Death Guard force.

You can already field a generic Nurgle force with the current 'Chaos' Codex. This new Codex should be about the Legions, not about taking a special character in order to play a Legion.

My post is not a case of “what should happen” only “what will happen” based on current trends. I don’t see GW returning the themed army mechanic of the 3.5 codex any time soon.

H.B.M.C. wrote:You can already field a generic Nurgle force with the current 'Chaos' Codex. This new Codex should be about the Legions, not about taking a special character in order to play a Legion.

I have to agree here. This is supposedly, let's not forget this may not even exist, a Chaos Legions codex; therefore a "generic" Nurgle force would be ridiculous since Deathguard are anything but generic Nurgle Marines. I hope each Legion gets a specific set of builds but the addition of a SC gives you a further bonus. For example World Eaters would be made up of Berzerkers and Khornate Daemons but the inclusion of Kharn would give all Berzerkers an additional +1 attack, or something of that nature. Then again, make the SC awesome enough and you don't need their inclusion to do anything to aid the rest of the corrupt brethren!

Is anything actually confirmed or is it, as usual, just speculation? As always, the thread has already stumbled into wishlisting....

Everything I could ever want is in Just Dave's CSM codex

OverwatchCNC wrote:For example World Eaters would be made up of Berzerkers and Khornate Daemons but the inclusion of Kharn would give all Berzerkers an additional +1 attack, or something of that nature. Then again, make the SC awesome enough and you don't need their inclusion to do anything to aid the rest of the corrupt brethren!

I don't mind special characters adding something special to the force - there certainly has to be a reason to take them - but I don't want the reason to take them to become the only way to play that army. If we do that we end up with the same sort of crap that Imperial Fist, Crimson Fist, White Scar, Salamander, Raven Guard and Dark Angel players are stuck with.

Kanluwen wrote:

LavuranGuard wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

LavuranGuard wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:not every Tzeentch army should need to take Ahriman, but any Thousand Sons force should.

Really, even the TS loyal to Magnus?

Does Magnus even do anything anymore?

I can't think of him doing anything outside of brooding. Ahriman is the only member of the Thousand Sons who is active, and is always reported alongside his automaton styled brethren.

Just thinking of Battle of the Fang which has Sorcerors and Rubrics working for Magnus rather than the exiled Ahriman so I'm assuming a TS army could be a faction following either of these 2 prime movers.

Battle of the Fang is supposed to take place not that long after the Heresy, which likely means that Ahriman hasn't been "Exiled" yet.

It, if I remember right(and I might not be because it's been awhile since I read up on Ahriman), wasn't an overnight thing after the Rubric happened. There were several "cure" attempts done by Ahriman before Magnus finally sent him away.

But honestly, when one thinks of the Thousand Sons now--you think of Ahriman and his Cabal leading their empty-armored brothers to war, not Magnus and his lot that just stay on the Planet of Sorcerers for the most part.

Nope Ahriman is exiled by the Battle for the Fang,there were Rubric Marines by then remember.
That means the Rubrik of Ahriman was already cast and he was exiled

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:not every Tzeentch army should need to take Ahriman, but any Thousand Sons force should.

Uhh... no. More than no. No x Infinity +1.

Ahriman doesn't lead every 1KSons force, so no, he shouldn't lead 1KSons forces.

To field a 'signature' Thousand Sons force? Maybe he should. Rubric Marines are very specific to Thousand Sons. They're not part of every single Tzeentchian warband. They are, however, part of every Thousand Sons warband.
Seeing the difference here?

There should be no limitation for fielding a 'generic' force of a specific God. But there should be some kind of benefit for fielding a 'Legion' force with a unique, signature character at the head of it.

Making Legion armies require Special Characters is simply daft. Every Emperor's Children force requiring Lucius would be absurd. Even more absurd would be any World Eater force requiring Kharn.

Kharn is a hard one to justify as a special character, period. I think he'd work well as a 'Lone Wolf' kind of unit.

The World Eaters/Death Guard/Emperor's Children/Thousand Sons/Word Bearers/Iron Warriors/Alpha Legion/Night Lords are more than just a named special character and a special rule. Far, far more than that.

Of course they are. But they're also far more than simply a 'mark' on the character. They have specific operational methods, specific organizations, specific formations, specific traits, etc.
A special character with "Visions of Glory Past" giving something akin to Chapter Tactics and giving special rules to otherwise generic units is a good way to represent these Legions without having to go too far overboard on toning down everything to ensure that no real 'broken' builds come out.

Kanluwen wrote:Considering that Death Guard are a specific formation, with a specific warleader...that's not really a big deal.

This I have to hear:
Tell us Kan, why are the Death Guard a specific formation now and not a Traitor Legion?

Probably because the Traitor Legions aren't actually operating as Legions by and large? They're warbands, fragmented and doing what they want for the most part.

The three Legions I can think of that have any semblance of organization are the Black Legion, Iron Warriors(and they're fairly fragmented with a large number of warbands), and the Alpha Legion.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't mind special characters adding something special to the force - there certainly has to be a reason to take them - but I don't want the reason to take them to become the only way to play that army. If we do that we end up with the same sort of crap that Imperial Fist, Crimson Fist, White Scar, Salamander, Raven Guard and Dark Angel players are stuck with.

To be 100% fair...
Imperial and Crimson Fists, Salamanders, and Raven Guard don't have too much that really separates them from the Ultramarines in terms of organization. Raven Guard are known for something that isn't tangible(Infiltration tactics and precise planning), the Fists are known for being Stubborn, and Salamanders are known for being a bit slower than average in foot slogging matches.

White Scars are known for being highly mechanized and fielding large amounts of bike troops with Rhino/Razorback mounted troops and Land Speeders to ensure that when they do find the weak point in a line that they can break it down with overwhelming force.

Dark Angels I'm hesitant to say too much about, since some might use my statements here against me next time in one of the "Do the Dark Angels deserve their own Codex?" threads. But basically, my beef with Dark Angels is that they just needed a generic "Deathwing" and "Ravenwing" Captain that could unlock the troop choices/organizations, with Librarians and Chaplains having options to go along accordingly.

Plague Marines, Rubric Marines, Noise Marines, and Berzerkers are specific troop types. They should be available to all 'generic' Legion forces, but they shouldn't necessarily be the stupidly powerful versions that specific members of the Legion are known to have in their warbands. They are, essentially, the 'Tacticals' of the Legion. Having a specific character leading the formation should, in my ideal world, unlock the 'Veteran' versions.

"Warband" is a rather fluid and vague term that could mean a Champion and his personal retinue right up to the equivalent of a couple of Codex-sized Companies. They could also be a mixed Warband where various groups from various Legions and Renegade Chapters have come together, or a large Warband of just Emperor's Children or just Night Lords.

H.B.M.C. wrote:"Warband" is a rather fluid and vague term that could mean a Champion and his personal retinue right up to the equivalent of a couple of Codex-sized Companies. They could also be a mixed Warband where various groups from various Legions and Renegade Chapters have come together, or a large Warband of just Emperor's Children or just Night Lords.

Which is why I'd rather not see the 'Super' versions available without a character or with nothing like Chapter Tactics ensuring you're not facing infiltrating Alpha Legion veterans who can 'turn' some of your units against you, alongside of Berzerkers who have FNP and 2 wounds each.

Kanluwen wrote:Plague Marines, Rubric Marines, Noise Marines, and Berzerkers are specific troop types.

That's too narrow a view and, frankly, one that doesn't make any logical sense as it doesn't allow for Noise Marine Termiantors or Plague Marine Bikers or Berzerker Chosen.

Having a squad of Plague Marines in your Chaos Space Marine army - no issue there, it makes sense - but if you are playing a Death Guard army then all your Marine units are Plague Marines - the Lord, the Chosen, the Terminators, the Possessed, the Bikers, the regular squads, the Havocs, and so on.

Remember the old phrase that has been said many times before:

Not all Berzerkers are World Eaters.
All World Eaters are Berzerkers.

Berzerkers, however, =/= Power Armour + Chain Axe + Fancy Hat.

The only Legion (and not random renegade Warband) that should really have access to cult troops would be the Black Legion, as they're the melting pot for a lot of different things. Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors and especially the Word Bearers should stay away from 'cult' troops.

OverwatchCNC wrote: make the SC awesome enough and you don't need their inclusion to do anything to aid the rest of the corrupt brethren!

Thats how it should be, unless the fluff supports the SC adding something to his fellow troops. Kharn for example would not...hes just a crazed combat monster. Ahriman, on the other hand, probably should add something...I imagine his presence could do something liek remove the slow and purposeful rule while he is in play.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Plague Marines, Rubric Marines, Noise Marines, and Berzerkers are specific troop types.

That's too narrow a view and, frankly, one that doesn't make any logical sense as it doesn't allow for Noise Marine Termiantors or Plague Marine Bikers or Berzerker Chosen.

Having a squad of Plague Marines in your Chaos Space Marine army - no issue there, it makes sense - but if you are playing a Death Guard army then all your Marine units are Plague Marines - the Lord, the Chosen, the Terminators, the Possessed, the Bikers, the regular squads, the Havocs, and so on.

If you're playing Death Guard, you shouldn't have Bikers.

Remember the old phrase that has been said many times before:

Not all Berzerkers are World Eaters.
All World Eaters are Berzerkers.

Berzerkers, however, =/= Power Armour + Chain Axe + Fancy Hat.

I'm aware. I've said it many a time in fluff threads, but it's the best way to describe World Eater troops. With some kind of World Eater character(not necessarily Kharn, since the World Eaters are kinda irked at him since you know...he's responsible for the break-up of the World Eater Legion at large) making a 'World Eater warband', I don't see too big of a deal. Maybe they could even use Zhufor, he's supposed to be a World Eater who leads his own warband since the betrayal.

World Eaters, along with Alpha Legion, are the hardest to come up with a 'unique' formation for.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

OverwatchCNC wrote:For example World Eaters would be made up of Berzerkers and Khornate Daemons but the inclusion of Kharn would give all Berzerkers an additional +1 attack, or something of that nature. Then again, make the SC awesome enough and you don't need their inclusion to do anything to aid the rest of the corrupt brethren!

I don't mind special characters adding something special to the force - there certainly has to be a reason to take them - but I don't want the reason to take them to become the only way to play that army. If we do that we end up with the same sort of crap that Imperial Fist, Crimson Fist, White Scar, Salamander, Raven Guard and Dark Angel players are stuck with.

Sadly, can we realistically expect more than that from GW?-No.

I think the means by which legions are characterized is going to be dictated by the degree GW chooses to distinguish them from each other. The more complex the rules the less likely they'll be tied to characters; realistically GW will only allow them to be so complex. If GW is willing to give Chaos Legions as big a book as C:SM and as many units as the average codex of this edition, that will be a big first step in the right direction, since anyway GW goes about it they will need more pages and more units than they have now to distinguish all 9.

Whether the special rules are tied to the special characters or not, I think it'll be important and worthwhile to see characters representing each of the legions. At the same time that has to be balanced with the Chaos Renegade book, if that is to remain... for example despite his Legion roots, Fabius Bile acts as a good way of showing how the legions help facilitate the renegades... I also think seeing Cypher returning in the renegade book is worthwhile place for him.

Hopefully for the 4 legions that don't have special characters we can see some daemon princes... one of those things so distinctive of chaos space marines, but GW's never really taken advantage of for 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:
That's too narrow a view and, frankly, one that doesn't make any logical sense as it doesn't allow for Noise Marine Termiantors or Plague Marine Bikers or Berzerker Chosen.

Having a squad of Plague Marines in your Chaos Space Marine army - no issue there, it makes sense - but if you are playing a Death Guard army then all your Marine units are Plague Marines - the Lord, the Chosen, the Terminators, the Possessed, the Bikers, the regular squads, the Havocs, and so on.

Remember the old phrase that has been said many times before:

Not all Berzerkers are World Eaters.
All World Eaters are Berzerkers.

Berzerkers, however, =/= Power Armour + Chain Axe + Fancy Hat.

The only Legion (and not random renegade Warband) that should really have access to cult troops would be the Black Legion, as they're the melting pot for a lot of different things. Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors and especially the Word Bearers should stay away from 'cult' troops.

It almost seems like the simplest implementation is if "Chosen," "bikes," "havocs" etc... should just be an upgrade to a selection of core units granting upgrade options and for some special rules... and while that accomplishes the same thing as spelling every unit out it gives the impression that chaos is more chaotic about their force organization and not rigid in imperial doctrine.

I’m hoping that if they do a Daemon Prince SC, they don’t go overboard with his profile as a Daemon Prince more or less has the stat line and abilities of a SC already. Word Bearers would be a good candidate for a Daemon Prince character given their affinity with daemons and their legion rules in the past have always been affiliated with summoning rolls.

Kanluwen wrote:To field a 'signature' Thousand Sons force? Maybe he should. Rubric Marines are very specific to Thousand Sons. They're not part of every single Tzeentchian warband. They are, however, part of every Thousand Sons warband.
Seeing the difference here?

There should be no limitation for fielding a 'generic' force of a specific God. But there should be some kind of benefit for fielding a 'Legion' force with a unique, signature character at the head of it.

There is no difference. A Thousand Sons warband is a Thousand Sons warband, there's more than one of them, and only one Ahriman. If you want to argue from a fluff perspective, no, Ahriman should not lead every Thousand Sons warband.

The problem is when that 'signature' character doesn't define the Legion but a splinter, 'renegade' portion of that Legion. Typhus falls into this as well. They had 'disagreements' with their primarch, turned their backs on their legion, and do their own thing. These people do not represent the Legion, they represent themselves.

Requiring every Thousand Sons force to include Ahriman or every Death Guard force to include Typhus is as bad as making Salamanders overly powerful with Vulkan. It enforces the belief that every Salamanders force should be led by Vulkan, when in fact he leads a separate, highly specialised company that doesn't even operate with the Chapter as a whole, they seek artefacts.

It also limits your ability to bring other units you might want. Vulkan is seen as a neccessity in a Salamanders force (he's not really, he just makes an already powerful list far more powerful), so every Salamanders, and even others using him as 'counts as', uses him. That leaves one HQ slot for doing some more creative stuff with. The same will happen, but far worse, by requiring Legions to take a renegade who doesn't actually represent the Legion as a whole. Vulkan isn't even required and he's ruined the whole concept. Shrike is the same - he doesn't represent the Raven Guard as a whole, but he is used as the Raven Guard commander who makes the force a Raven Guard force, though it's not actually typical Raven Guard force with him.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The only Legion (and not random renegade Warband) that should really have access to cult troops would be the Black Legion, as they're the melting pot for a lot of different things. Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors and especially the Word Bearers should stay away from 'cult' troops.

Iron Warriors have vast legions of slaves they use to build their fortresses and wage personal wars between the warsmiths, they are extremely commonplace. Place all 'cultists' under a generic statline and slap on a special rule per legion (black legion cultists become fearless, iron warrior cultists become stubborn etc).

There doesn't need to be an absolute strict adherance to troops access, it could be easily justified that the cultists on the board are fanatical devotees to the chaos gods of whatever legion you are playing and are joining the field to honour the ruinous powers (specific gods or undivided or finders of a daemon relic). Sure Alpha Legion or Night Lord followers wouldn't have any extra rules, beacuse it's just a bunch of members of a nearby chaos cult come to join the battle. This method would promote the taking or not taking of cultists, but no army should be strictly denied access to such things.

Cult troops Rob, not cultists.

Cult Troops = Plague Bearers, Berzerkers, Noise Marines and Rhubric Marines.

Ehsteve wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:The only Legion (and not random renegade Warband) that should really have access to cult troops would be the Black Legion, as they're the melting pot for a lot of different things. Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors and especially the Word Bearers should stay away from 'cult' troops.

Iron Warriors have vast legions of slaves they use to build their fortresses and wage personal wars between the warsmiths, they are extremely commonplace. Place all 'cultists' under a generic statline and slap on a special rule per legion (black legion cultists become fearless, iron warrior cultists become stubborn etc).

There doesn't need to be an absolute strict adherance to troops access, it could be easily justified that the cultists on the board are fanatical devotees to the chaos gods of whatever legion you are playing and are joining the field to honour the ruinous powers (specific gods or undivided or finders of a daemon relic). Sure Alpha Legion or Night Lord followers wouldn't have any extra rules, beacuse it's just a bunch of members of a nearby chaos cult come to join the battle. This method would promote the taking or not taking of cultists, but no army should be strictly denied access to such things.

'Cult' units is used to reference Berserkers, Plague Marines, etc.

Loki wrote:There is no difference. A Thousand Sons warband is a Thousand Sons warband, there's more than one of them, and only one Ahriman. If you want to argue from a fluff perspective, no, Ahriman should not lead every Thousand Sons warband.

Sure he should. Any Thousand Sons force operating is almost without a doubt going to be Ahriman or one of his Disciples, not Magnus'. Magnus hasn't been going anywhere, by most accounts.

Thousand Sons don't have "warbands" at this point. They're very restricted in what and where they can operate. Without a member of the Sons who is a Sorcerer, they're boned. Ahriman and his Cabal are the ones who usually are operating outside of the Planet of Sorcerers.

The problem is when that 'signature' character doesn't define the Legion but a splinter, 'renegade' portion of that Legion. Typhus falls into this as well. They had 'disagreements' with their primarch, turned their backs on their legion, and do their own thing. These people do not represent the Legion, they represent themselves.

Actually, Typhus according to the fluff has most of the Death Guard following him. Mortarion, on the other hand, is given himself wholly to Daemonhood and usually found with Plaguebearers.
So Typhus is the best representative for Death Guard.

Requiring every Thousand Sons force to include Ahriman or every Death Guard force to include Typhus is as bad as making Salamanders overly powerful with Vulkan. It enforces the belief that every Salamanders force should be led by Vulkan, when in fact he leads a separate, highly specialised company that doesn't even operate with the Chapter as a whole, they seek artefacts.

The point was that they're representative of specialist formations, specifically noted for these specific Chapters.

It also limits your ability to bring other units you might want.

Kind of the point. You shouldn't necessarily be able to mix and match everything powerful and just claim it's "fluffy"--even if it is. If it's broken but fluffy--then there needs to be limitations, even as fluffy as it can be.

Vulkan is seen as a neccessity in a Salamanders force (he's not really, he just makes an already powerful list far more powerful), so every Salamanders, and even others using him as 'counts as', uses him. That leaves one HQ slot for doing some more creative stuff with. The same will happen, but far worse, by requiring Legions to take a renegade who doesn't actually represent the Legion as a whole.

The Legion, as a whole, has no representatives. Black Legion, Alpha Legion, and Iron Warriors are the only ones who have any kind of groupthink going on by all the fluff we've got.

Vulkan isn't even required and he's ruined the whole concept. Shrike is the same - he doesn't represent the Raven Guard as a whole, but he is used as the Raven Guard commander who makes the force a Raven Guard force, though it's not actually typical Raven Guard force with him.

Yeah...I dislike Shrike, but I understand the point of him.

He's there not just to be a "Raven Guard" character, but also an "Assault" character for the generic book. Just like Vulkan is there to provide a template for an "Artificer Lord".