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I feel bad for whoever the author is of this codex. Because there is no way in hell that GW has the smarts to make a codex that will cater to all of the varied opinions on this subject.

Sad part is, just tweaking the codex before Gav's mostrously underwhelming version(not really his fault) to be in line with the current editions and making it less of a mess, would make the vast majority of Chaos fans happy. Rebalance a few things for 5th (or upcoming 6th) edition and that would settle it. Maybe add a few new units for good measure and done. Doesn't seem so difficult.

Kanluwen wrote:Sure he should. Any Thousand Sons force operating is almost without a doubt going to be Ahriman or one of his Disciples, not Magnus'. Magnus hasn't been going anywhere, by most accounts.

You don't quite get it yet. We're not saying that the parent force cannot belong to Ahriman or be associated with Ahriman, only that Ahriman need not be present for every engagement, meaning that a 1KSons army should not require him in order to be a 1KSons army.

For example, in our long-running series of games we had a faction of the 1KSons led by a guy called Kaedron. He was an acolyte or Ahriman's, fully supported Ahriman's cause, and fought in his name. It was a 1KSons army, complete with Rhubric Terminators, Marines, Chosen Squads, Possessed and Tzeentch Daemons up the wazoo. It didn't need Ahriman in the list to be a 1Ksons army, and no 1KSons army should.

Kanluwen wrote:Thousand Sons don't have "warbands" at this point. They're very restricted in what and where they can operate. Without a member of the Sons who is a Sorcerer, they're boned. Ahriman and his Cabal are the ones who usually are operating outside of the Planet of Sorcerers.

Nonsense. You're making the 1Ksons out to be this tiny force that needs Ahriman's permisson and direct supervision in order to do anything.

Kanluwen wrote:Actually, Typhus according to the fluff has most of the Death Guard following him. Mortarion, on the other hand, is given himself wholly to Daemonhood and usually found with Plaguebearers. So Typhus is the best representative for Death Guard.

And thus should be required in every Death Guard army?

Kanluwen wrote:The point was that they're representative of specialist formations, specifically noted for these specific Chapters.

And? I've argued before that Salamanders players shouldn't need a special character in order to play their Chapter, and that their change to Chapter Tactics and whatever should be inherent for simply choosing to play a non-Ultramarines/non-Vanilla army. This applies to all the other armies, and applies doubly to the Deathwing/Ravenwing who apparently won't go to battle unless their Company Captain is holding their hand.

Kind of the point. You shouldn't necessarily be able to mix and match everything powerful and just claim it's "fluffy"--even if it is. If it's broken but fluffy--then there needs to be limitations, even as fluffy as it can be.

Kanluwen wrote:He's there not just to be a "Raven Guard" character, but also an "Assault" character for the generic book. Just like Vulkan is there to provide a template for an "Artificer Lord".

You're the first person I've ever heard say that.

Kanluwen wrote:Sure he should. Any Thousand Sons force operating is almost without a doubt going to be Ahriman or one of his Disciples, not Magnus'. Magnus hasn't been going anywhere, by most accounts.

Thousand Sons don't have "warbands" at this point. They're very restricted in what and where they can operate. Without a member of the Sons who is a Sorcerer, they're boned. Ahriman and his Cabal are the ones who usually are operating outside of the Planet of Sorcerers.

That's actually not correct. While Ahriman and the Prodigal Sons are the most well known, there are other warbands of Thousand Sons out there. They definitely also do have warbands. This is in Index Astartes III.

Have to agree with what H.B.M.C has been saying, I think that mandatory inclusion of special characters in order to field certain armies is/was/and will always be a bad idea.
I would hope that any Legions codex to be released would avoid this and allow for various customizable HQs represenitive of their given Legions.
I would much rather be able to create " Lord Tumor Tush" to lead my Death Guard than be forced to take Typhus.

I just did a quick read through of every bit of 1KSons and Death Guard fluff that I could get my hands on (Lexicanium, Index Astartes, current 'Chaos' Codex, 3.5 Codex) and I can't find anything about:

1. Typhus leading the majority of the Death Guard.
2. Ahriman being the main 1KSons guy with Magnus sitting pretty on his world.

What I did find was:

1. Several ship Captains of the Death Guard sided with Typhus who left the Plague Planet with him. The remainder stay there and Mortarion keeps launching attacks from his world (even if he is not physically there to lead them).
2. Ahriman was banished with his group.
3. Although Magnus never leaves the Planet of Sorcerers (he's busy moping after losing everything he ever worked for), the 'Sorcerer Lords' of the Thousand Sons (who are able to maintain their numbers via some very strange methods) do use the Silver Towers of the city as mobile bases to launch attacks into the Imperium...

All of this leads me to believe that:

1. Typhus is simply one of many commanders within the Death Guard, and that Death Guard Warbands that fight for him are less likely to occur than those who don't.
2. The 1KSons are essentially split into two demi-Legions, those that follow Magnus and operate from the Planet of Sorcerers, and those that came with Ahriman when he was exiled.

The conclusion from this is:

1. A 1KSons army needn't require Ahriman in order to be a Thousand Sons army.
2. A Death Guard army needn't require Typhus in order to be a Death Guard army.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The point was that they're representative of specialist formations, specifically noted for these specific Chapters.

And? I've argued before that Salamanders players shouldn't need a special character in order to play their Chapter, and that their change to Chapter Tactics and whatever should be inherent for simply choosing to play a non-Ultramarines/non-Vanilla army. This applies to all the other armies, and applies doubly to the Deathwing/Ravenwing who apparently won't go to battle unless their Company Captain is holding their hand.

Kind of the point. You shouldn't necessarily be able to mix and match everything powerful and just claim it's "fluffy"--even if it is. If it's broken but fluffy--then there needs to be limitations, even as fluffy as it can be.

Completely agreed. Something like that would be just amazing. Just add a couple of "faction styles" in each codex (not only marines), who free special abilities. That would be great, costumizable, and fun. But it wont happen. Special Characters with special rules sell metal/failcast models, and a lot of people dont like to convert their own Special Characters. Rules like that would be great for the comunity, but bad for the busines...

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:He's there not just to be a "Raven Guard" character, but also an "Assault" character for the generic book. Just like Vulkan is there to provide a template for an "Artificer Lord".

You're the first person I've ever heard say that.

Well, i dont know if i am the only one, but there is people who use those Characters to represent other characters (homemade or not). For example, i think the White Scar comander have a much more "raven guard" tactics than the Raven Guard one, so i use him to field Raven Guard armies, and Vulkan is normallly a overcosted Commander, who i use to field a Salamander Army (who is not lead by Vulkan himself, just a Commander with Storm Shield and Relic Blade...

Moopy wrote:This makes sense to me. Marine should be in the main box (they always are) and if Chaos is the first 6th ed codex out of the gate, it will be a strong contender for the marines to fight.

Yeah, sounds like another boring marines vs marines fight.

Melissia wrote:

Moopy wrote:This makes sense to me. Marine should be in the main box (they always are) and if Chaos is the first 6th ed codex out of the gate, it will be a strong contender for the marines to fight.

Yeah, sounds like another boring marines vs marines fight.

Wake me when its over

Time to break out the Black Legion again...

NELS1031 wrote:Sad part is, just tweaking the codex before Gav's mostrously underwhelming version(not really his fault) to be in line with the current editions and making it less of a mess, would make the vast majority of Chaos fans happy. Rebalance a few things for 5th (or upcoming 6th) edition and that would settle it. Maybe add a few new units for good measure and done. Doesn't seem so difficult.

And those of us who had to play against the v3.5 Hainesian monstrosity would much prefer it to remain dead, with a stake through it's cold dead heart - and preferably with all extant copies burned, their ashes spread to the seven winds, and all electronic copies degaussed into free-floating electrons...

Dysartes wrote:And those of us who had to play against the v3.5 Hainesian monstrosity would much prefer it to remain dead, with a stake through it's cold dead heart - and preferably with all extant copies burned, their ashes spread to the seven winds, and all electronic copies degaussed into free-floating electrons...

You say that as if the current 5th edition codexes aren't much worse.

The legions thing should have a few HQ for each legion and they give things like make X troops or all units get 6+ invl stuff like that.

And each HQ is in its own legion and can't just jump around which will be stupid.

Pretty sure you meant Plague Marine there H.B.M.C, not Plague Bearer

I just hope it's not going to be Codex Marines with Spikes.

Would it be a satisfactory compromise to have 9 legion-specific, but non-named HQ choices? Like a "Death Guard Lord" that would unlock Death Guard units and "chapter tactics" or whatnot but have some flexibility in his own wargear loadout?

And maybe then the special characters could be upgrades for the generic Legion Lord (upgrade Death Guard Lord to Typhus: must always take a specific weapon combo and gains X special rule as a bonus)

lord_blackfang wrote:Would it be a satisfactory compromise to have 9 legion-specific, but non-named HQ choices? Like a "Death Guard Lord" that would unlock Death Guard units and "chapter tactics" or whatnot but have some flexibility in his own wargear loadout?

And maybe then the special characters could be upgrades for the generic Legion Lord (upgrade Death Guard Lord to Typhus: must always take a specific weapon combo and gains X special rule as a bonus)

That is exactly what most of the community, or anyone who has played with the 3.5 Chaos Codex would be happy with right there. I know I want the ability to play an IW army that has a little more ability than a standard Alpha Legion, or not-Chaos Legion warband. I put Survo arms on a lot of models to make the army a little more fluffy, had a Basilisk, etc, etc, and then v4 comes out and I can no longer use them. Sucks. I would also not want to have to keep fielding my berserker army as nothing but generic bezerkers with no flavor whats so ever. Where are my chainaxes, and Axes of Khorne, can only have 2 plasma pistols, instead of three, etc, etc. No chosen bezerkers. All those cool aspiring champions that I converted are worthless.

But the absolute worst thing as a hobbyist that GW could do to us, and the hobby, is for GW to make it so we have to take a SC to have any flavor to our army. Having to take Vulken, to play Salamanders is the wrong answer, (that and he has no negatives to his free stuff he does to the army) having to take Shrike to play Ravenguard and so on and so on, is so crappy. But as other people have said, from a business standpoint, that is what GW wants. It makes it so more of the SC models are sold, by tenfold probably. I wish they had a sales characteristic for Special Characters.

And to follow along H.B.M.C.'s analogy, I like my strawberry ice cream. I don't just want vanilla. You can keep the chocolate though.

I have been reading everyone's discussion about the 1ksons and ti makes me sad.

The whole idea behind 1ksons is not and should not be limited to who leads what and where. It honestly should encompass everything. This idea should honestly apply to all chaos armies.

Yes there should be armies lead by Ahriman, and YES there should be armies lead by Magnus and YES there should be disparate warbands floating through space disconnected form the rest of the hordes of chaos. That is how the fluff is set up to be.

I want to be able to have Sorcerer Lord that has been trapped in the wrap for 10,000 years where he fled the fall of ....... having taken a small strong core of the legion that had been reduced to a mere shadow of themselves. To him it has only been a few short years since he traded blows with a dastardly Space Wolf who he once called a brother in arms. The only thing the Lord desires is to find the power he needs to enact his revenge upon his feral brethren.

OR

I would like to have an elite force of the Black Legion lead by lowly subordinate to a supreme Lord in Abbaddon's retinue. They have been fighting constantly for 10,000 years and have thousands of battle field experiences and have walked through all 13 black crusades. The only thing keeping them alive is the skill that they have gained from a lifetime of war and the hatred that they all share of their imperial prissy brethren.

etc etc

ShatteredBlade wrote:I just hope it's not going to be Codex Marines with Spikes.

Considering we're well past the short-lived "boring" era of codices with Codex: Chaos Space Marines, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels (WD dex), I wouldn't expect it to be.

H.B.M.C. wrote:We're not saying that the parent force cannot belong to Ahriman or be associated with Ahriman,

Now I want a Codex Parents: "Fear the parent force of Chaos!"

Kanluwen wrote:
The three Legions I can think of that have any semblance of organization are the Black Legion, Iron Warriors(and they're fairly fragmented with a large number of warbands), and the Alpha Legion.

I'd include the Word Bearers there, based on their books they seem to be at least as organized as the Black Legion, and definitely more than the Iron Warriors. Compared to Alpha Legion though (as usual) we can't tell.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The only Legion (and not random renegade Warband) that should really have access to cult troops would be the Black Legion, as they're the melting pot for a lot of different things. Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors and especially the Word Bearers should stay away from 'cult' troops.

That ties into where I was going earlier -- that maybe it makes sense to have NL, AL, IW and WB represented in the revised/patched/whatever CSM book (with cult troops removed and a few new toys like SM vehicles, traitors/cultists and new SCs added) while the new book focuses on WE, DG, EC, TS and BL.

Just feels like the most natural break to me. Those first four seem a lot closer to Red Corsairs than the other five. And that gives the new book plenty of room to flesh out the cults -- characters, units and wargear.

I suppose in that scenario the players of "cult 5" armies might end up happier than those of the "noncult 4". But I still feel like it'd be a step forward for everyone, and that GW might end up with an "unhappy 9" if they try to cover them all in one book. Just seems like the detail has to suffer in that case. I think JustDave's version does a good job at incorporating everything in one place. But if I have to make a criticism, I think it's that it doesn't go down-and-dirty enough on the Legions -- especially the cult Legions. Not that there's the room to do that.

The "revised" CSM book is to me an important part of the rumor. If true, I think it's much more likely that it will remain a CSM army list first and foremost -- which is part of the reason my money is still on a split like I outlined above (if I HAD to bet, that is). If JustDave's codex was released as Codex: Legions, there'd be ZERO reason to keep the existing book around.


Regarding the "scattered warband/organization" thing, that's a fluff point that has been emphasized more at some times than at others. It can be changed with a few strokes on a keyboard...it shouldn't be guiding any major design decisions.

And I don't think this thread is in wishlisting territory at all. I think we have a pretty good back-and-forth going about the design dilemmas and decisions involved, which to me is a very different thing than wishlisting. *shrug*

rabidaskal wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
The three Legions I can think of that have any semblance of organization are the Black Legion, Iron Warriors(and they're fairly fragmented with a large number of warbands), and the Alpha Legion.

I'd include the Word Bearers there, based on their books they seem to be at least as organized as the Black Legion, and definitely more than the Iron Warriors. Compared to Alpha Legion though (as usual) we can't tell.

Add to that Night Lords - a large number of warbands does not mean they are disorganised - especially when you consider the size of the Legions. If anything the only Legion that could be considered truly 'disorganised' is the World Eaters due to the Skalathrax incident.

Sure he should. Any Thousand Sons force operating is almost without a doubt going to be Ahriman or one of his Disciples, not Magnus'. Magnus hasn't been going anywhere, by most accounts.

Thousand Sons don't have "warbands" at this point. They're very restricted in what and where they can operate. Without a member of the Sons who is a Sorcerer, they're boned. Ahriman and his Cabal are the ones who usually are operating outside of the Planet of Sorcerers.

Wrong actually.
Ahriman has his own group, the Sorcerers still loyal to Magnus operate with their own Thousand Son Rubric Marines and have their own agendas.
For Ahriman to be required for every TS force would make next to no sense, like having Kharn leading every World Eaters force or Lucius leading every Emperors Children. These characters work independently, often with their own specialised group.

The problem as I see it is, depending on the author of this thing, this whole SC required for each army might actually happen. To be honest I prefer the SC's as they are now in the current Codex, helpful boosts to your unit forces but not integral to them at all. All they would require is a bit of tweaking to get them to be worthwhile in taking

DarkStarSabre wrote:Add to that Night Lords - a large number of warbands does not mean they are disorganised - especially when you consider the size of the Legions. If anything the only Legion that could be considered truly 'disorganised' is the World Eaters due to the Skalathrax incident.

And the fact that they're all bloodthirsty maniacs.

Here's a thought: Do you think GW would ever go back to the "old" Khorne, which was more about achiving glory in battle or something like that? Never read any fluff about it myself, only heard stories from older gamers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Since we're talking about SCs altering your army, has this actually been done in any other army since Codex: Space Marines?

gorgon wrote:That ties into where I was going earlier -- that maybe it makes sense to have NL, AL, IW and WB represented in the revised/patched/whatever CSM book (with cult troops removed and a few new toys like SM vehicles, traitors/cultists and new SCs added) while the new book focuses on WE, DG, EC, TS and BL.

Just feels like the most natural break to me. Those first four seem a lot closer to Red Corsairs than the other five. And that gives the new book plenty of room to flesh out the cults -- characters, units and wargear.

I suppose in that scenario the players of "cult 5" armies might end up happier than those of the "noncult 4". But I still feel like it'd be a step forward for everyone, and that GW might end up with an "unhappy 9" if they try to cover them all in one book. Just seems like the detail has to suffer in that case. I think JustDave's version does a good job at incorporating everything in one place. But if I have to make a criticism, I think it's that it doesn't go down-and-dirty enough on the Legions -- especially the cult Legions. Not that there's the room to do that.

Well I think an unrealistic ideal is one where GW could devote enough resources to all nine with each getting as fleshed out as the loyalists... we just know that won't happen any time soon.
I think the fact that IW, WB, AL, and NL seem like Red Corsairs just speaks to the failure of GW to properly characterize each and distinguish them accordingly. The fact is Red Corsairs should be more like loyalist marines than they are... aside from their more recent departure they raid the Imperium for supplies more; there is little reason they would have so quickly resorted to using the weapons from their local Chaos-R-US store to purchase milennia old equipment and daemon engines. Admittedly they'd get that stuff from what ever Chaos Legions feel they have something to gain but in general they would look more like the loyalists than the Legions. Next their fluff describes them as engaging primarily in pirate raids against Imperial ships, but there is nothing in their army that actually shows that.

The characterization of IW, WB, AL, and NL are only as fleshed out as alot of the 3rd edition loyalists... where each can be summed up in a single special rule, a unit or two, and a independent character. Just as those loyalists evolved into the current edition so should these 4, even if it isn't to the same degree.

Anung Un Rama wrote:

DarkStarSabre wrote:Add to that Night Lords - a large number of warbands does not mean they are disorganised - especially when you consider the size of the Legions. If anything the only Legion that could be considered truly 'disorganised' is the World Eaters due to the Skalathrax incident.

And the fact that they're all bloodthirsty maniacs.

Here's a thought: Do you think GW would ever go back to the "old" Khorne, which was more about achiving glory in battle or something like that? Never read any fluff about it myself, only heard stories from older gamers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Since we're talking about SCs altering your army, has this actually been done in any other army since Codex: Space Marines?

Wazdakka Gutsmek makes Warbikers troops.

Anung Un Rama wrote:[
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Since we're talking about SCs altering your army, has this actually been done in any other army since Codex: Space Marines?

Codex Dark Angels (Master of Deathwing, Master of Ravenwing)
Codex Orks (Wazzdakka)
Codex Space Marines (Changes to what counts as scoring)
Codex Blood Angels (Astaroth iirc changes Death Company and Dante with Sanguinary Guard)
Codex Grey Knights (Coteaz and Henchmen and whats-his-name with Purifiers)

I believe Dark Eldar have a few characters that change it as well.

Anung Un Rama wrote:
Here's a thought: Do you think GW would ever go back to the "old" Khorne, which was more about achiving glory in battle or something like that? Never read any fluff about it myself, only heard stories from older gamers.

I wish they would do this - bring back that aspect of Khorne, the "martial pride" theme.

There was a story about a Loyalist Space Marine beating 2 or 3 Berzerkers in HTH and the leader/champion saluted him for his efforts.

Things like that are nice to see, rather than All Who Worship Khorne are maniacs and their only tactic is the headlong charge...

Sounds like a good way to distinguish Worldeaters from the riff-raff berzerkers... though maybe not stereptypical enough for a GW villain these days.

Think there's any chance of characters for the four other legions? Like Erebus for WB and so on...

If the specials would give alterations to the armies, what would they do?