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God. I wouldn't know where to start! The current codex isn't dire... it's just dull to the point of making any true urge to use it morribund before you've even played a game! I like that they're finally addressing this hole but just hope they don't over power chaos, more just make them competitive again with their old colour ways and sticking to fluff. Representing that some of these guys are 10,000 years old and have fought against space marines and worst whilst living in hell, literally, is a very big thing to capture with them in my opinion. They're an army unlike any other... they've got the age and experience of the eldar with the military might of the imperium and the sheer brutality of the orks and Tyranids.
Splitting them into 'fake' CSM's and the old school legions seems like a no-brainer to me so long as the renegades are updated properly and there is a healthy level of open unity between the two. It won't happen.. but one can hope.
Here is a list of changes I thought up for the codex a while ago. I'll spoiler it for those who don't want to endure my lengthy post.
Spoiler:
In general bring back the ability for most units to get veteran abilities. It's a serious fluff step for the codex.
Marks:
Should all do more.
Khorne - +1 A, WS, Furious Charge.
Tzeentch - roll psychic test's on 3D6 and pick lowest two, +1 Invul save, ability to use two Psychic Test's a turn.
Nurgle - +1 toughness, feel no pain, true grit.
Slaanesh - +1 initiative, feel no pain, combat stimms.
Special Characters:
Abaddon - get rid of the mastery problem. Give him some psychic resistance and leave him as he is.
Kharn - give him eternal warrior back!
Ahriman - better invulnerable save or eternal warrior. 250pts is too expensive for a 4+ invul and no ID immunity. Otherwise he's gravy. Want to beef him up, give him something to stop enemies hindering his psychic test's.
Fabius - don't bother with an invul save, give him a regen factor and give his needler a bit more flair.
Typhus - he's alright.
Lucius - this guy is an unused canvas. Should definitely add more in about his armour. LD test or WS 1 for assaulting enemies sounds good.....
Huron - hate him. Give me doomrider back! If anything should play into his corrupting ability.
HQ's
DP - make him more customisable beyond marks. Wings, extra toughness, attacks, mutations in general. These guys are superhumans risen up by dark gods to immortality and powers capable of levelling a planet... we should represent this a little more accurately. Bloodthirster has WS 10... lets see the potential for WS 9 at least? Lord of change has a 3+ invul save... again.... lets seen a Tzeentch daemon lord at least on par.
Lords - need to be broken down into captains to represent small warbands (Ws 5, 2 wounds). Lords to lead big forces (as they are now) and something like a 'dread lord' who's a bit stronger. These are the guys that have been around for 10,000 years having a scrap. I'd like to see a stat line better than a wolf lord in the current climate or options to at least make him go toe to toe.
Sorcerers - just add them as a 25/35/40pt upgrade for any of the other options. They get a free power and a force weapon.
Daemon Weapons - i'd rather not have them than have the current lot. Not attacking at all if I roll a one? What the hell? I understand mastery is perhaps a necessary evil but make them powerful enough to be worth the risk. 1/6 chance means potentially one round of CC a game will be foiled which could be really bad!
Greater Daemons - pretty darn good. Give them options or bring back the classics.
Elites:
Veterans? Huh? Arn't most chaos space marines veterans? Let's get the highly customisable Chosen back, ta.
Terminators - if you adjust the benefits of the marks then yeah. Could be way better. More equipment would be nice perhaps and banners should die. In a fire. Slowly.
Possesed - fine just change time of rolling.
Dreds - Considering they can fire at my own units and they've got fairly few upgrades they need more attraction i my opinion. Really I would think all CSM dreds should start on par with a veteran dred from the imperium.
Troops:
CSM's - same goes for them as terminators.
Plague Marines - they're good. Give them more around nurgle maybe.
Noise Marines - make the blastermaster cheaper, perhaps give them a few more 'slaaneshi' options.
KB's - leave them as they are just give them more options. Bring back the chain axes or some form of psychic reistance.
1k sons - they're alright too. It's 2w's vs 4+ invul save issue and i'm easy both ways. Make the sorcerer cheaper!
Daemon Packs - Lets get the originals back.
Fast Attack:
All need their options back. Daemon packs. Perhaps a chaos take on a new vehicle would be nice. Give the raptors their fear inducing aura back and hit and run.
Heavy Support:
Make Obliterators T5 again! They've increased in pts and decreased in durability and flexibility.
Defiler with armour 13 was nice but i'd much prefer indirect fire opposed to the ability for an extra armour pt.
Havocs... well. A few new Heavy Weapons would be nice, otherwise how about something, anything to make these guys worth while beyond just melta or plasma spam.
Predator and Land Raiders... same old... same old.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/27 17:27:33
Anung Un Rama wrote: Here's a thought: Do you think GW would ever go back to the "old" Khorne, which was more about achiving glory in battle or something like that? Never read any fluff about it myself, only heard stories from older gamers.
I wish they would do this - bring back that aspect of Khorne, the "martial pride" theme.
There was a story about a Loyalist Space Marine beating 2 or 3 Berzerkers in HTH and the leader/champion saluted him for his efforts.
Things like that are nice to see, rather than All Who Worship Khorne are maniacs and their only tactic is the headlong charge...
Yeah fully with you here.
That was the only benefit I saw with the current Codex, you could take Khorne icon'd units in the unit sections I reckon a Legions book will ignore, as somehow along the line via the many fluff changes Khorne became .. Ug Waaagh in power armour.
Didn't make up for the many other issues I have with the book, but it was a slight positive.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/27 17:49:24
"That's not an Ork, its a girl.." - Last words of High General Daran Ul'tharem, battle of Ursha VII.
Two White Horses (Ipswich Town and Denver Broncos Supporter)
2011/07/27 18:05:34
Subject: Say my name three times in a thread about Chaos and I will post...
aka_mythos wrote:Well I think an unrealistic ideal is one where GW could devote enough resources to all nine with each getting as fleshed out as the loyalists... we just know that won't happen any time soon.
I think the fact that IW, WB, AL, and NL seem like Red Corsairs just speaks to the failure of GW to properly characterize each and distinguish them accordingly. The fact is Red Corsairs should be more like loyalist marines than they are... aside from their more recent departure they raid the Imperium for supplies more; there is little reason they would have so quickly resorted to using the weapons from their local Chaos-R-US store to purchase milennia old equipment and daemon engines. Admittedly they'd get that stuff from what ever Chaos Legions feel they have something to gain but in general they would look more like the loyalists than the Legions. Next their fluff describes them as engaging primarily in pirate raids against Imperial ships, but there is nothing in their army that actually shows that.
The characterization of IW, WB, AL, and NL are only as fleshed out as alot of the 3rd edition loyalists... where each can be summed up in a single special rule, a unit or two, and a independent character. Just as those loyalists evolved into the current edition so should these 4, even if it isn't to the same degree.
I completely agree that the current book presents a poor treatment of renegades. The Red Corsairs should be far more piratical...and would be *much* more interesting for it. I've always chalked up GW's talk of a "renegade" focus for that book to being mostly marketing spin to justify its radical departure from the previous book.
Ideally, there should be at least three buckets IMO...renegade SMs, CSMs, and cult CSMs. If we're forced to work with two buckets, I personally think the first two groups could work in one codex, although as you point out that's due to the CSMs historically being poorly fleshed out. I also acknowledge that my proposed split creates issues for existing armies, especially those built under the current codex. I'm sure there are plenty of WB players who want to be able to field Plague Marines, for instance. They'd still have the option of fielding CSMs plus MoN, but obviously it's not the same and is a change that would make them unhappy.
Yeah, I think maybe the takeaway at this point is no matter how GW "fixes" CSMs, there are going to be some unhappy players. The resource shortage creates some hard decisions. I suppose the irony is that GW could probably create a SM codex that covers BA and DA and break fewer eggs than what will be required in lumping the very disparate elements of Chaos into a coherent codex or two.
Alpharius wrote:
Anung Un Rama wrote:
Here's a thought: Do you think GW would ever go back to the "old" Khorne, which was more about achiving glory in battle or something like that? Never read any fluff about it myself, only heard stories from older gamers.
I wish they would do this - bring back that aspect of Khorne, the "martial pride" theme.
There was a story about a Loyalist Space Marine beating 2 or 3 Berzerkers in HTH and the leader/champion saluted him for his efforts.
Things like that are nice to see, rather than All Who Worship Khorne are maniacs and their only tactic is the headlong charge...
If the studio wants to make all-monocult armies feasible (which may or may not be a focus of theirs), I think they almost have to move back to that approach.
gorgon wrote:
I completely agree that the current book presents a poor treatment of renegades. The Red Corsairs should be far more piratical...and would be *much* more interesting for it. I've always chalked up GW's talk of a "renegade" focus for that book to being mostly marketing spin to justify its radical departure from the previous book.
Ideally, there should be at least three buckets IMO...renegade SMs, CSMs, and cult CSMs. If we're forced to work with two buckets, I personally think the first two groups could work in one codex, although as you point out that's due to the CSMs historically being poorly fleshed out. I also acknowledge that my proposed split creates issues for existing armies, especially those built under the current codex. I'm sure there are plenty of WB players who want to be able to field Plague Marines, for instance. They'd still have the option of fielding CSMs plus MoN, but obviously it's not the same and is a change that would make them unhappy.
The biggest problem with a Cult CSM codex, is just how little there is in common between them... it almost gets to the point where the book would have 4 separate codices in one book and then a section with the units available to all. GW would really have to be willing to go outside the format to go that route. I do agree there are element of the undivided legions more suited to share with the renegade space marines, but I feel those undivided legions really represent that unifying theme that ties a whole book together in a way that fits the current format.
2011/07/27 19:50:32
Subject: Say my name three times in a thread about Chaos and I will post...
aka_mythos wrote:The biggest problem with a Cult CSM codex, is just how little there is in common between them... it almost gets to the point where the book would have 4 separate codices in one book and then a section with the units available to all. GW would really have to be willing to go outside the format to go that route. I do agree there are element of the undivided legions more suited to share with the renegade space marines, but I feel those undivided legions really represent that unifying theme that ties a whole book together in a way that fits the current format.
A good point. Though I have to say, you could bring back cult troops without much of a fuzz, if you do it in a similar way it was handled in CSM 3.5. I don't need an entry for Khorne Terminators and Nurgle Terminators. All I want the option to give a unit a real mark (or something similar), essentially making them Terminators/bikers/raptors of whatever Legion I choose with the same benefits and hindrances a regular cult "tactical" squad would have. And not have one ing guy carry a ing banner, so they won't ing forget which deity they worship.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/07/27 19:52:20
My concern is for my Black Legion force. Will I be defined as Renegade or have a seperate entry? Stuff like that concerns me. I don't trust GW to do it right, but who knows.
I do however feel that Death Guard, TSons, Emp's kids, and World Eaters should really be defined as seperate forces. The current book does them a real injustice and friends of mine had whole forces changed because of it. The changes were not liked.
How come Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Black Templars and Dark Angels can all have seperate codexes while Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Emperors Children, Black Legion, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, World Eaters, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, and all other renegades are in one freaking codex?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/27 20:46:45
Orks: approx 4000 pts Uruk-hai force(700 pts) about 700 points of Vampire Counts
necrongod wrote:How come Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Black Templars and Dark Angels can all have seperate codexes while Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Emperors Children, Black Legion, World Eaters, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, and all other renegades are in one freaking codex?
aka_mythos wrote:The biggest problem with a Cult CSM codex, is just how little there is in common between them... it almost gets to the point where the book would have 4 separate codices in one book and then a section with the units available to all. GW would really have to be willing to go outside the format to go that route. I do agree there are element of the undivided legions more suited to share with the renegade space marines, but I feel those undivided legions really represent that unifying theme that ties a whole book together in a way that fits the current format.
A good point. Though I have to say, you could bring back cult troops without much of a fuzz, if you do it in a similar way it was handled in CSM 3.5. I don't need an entry for Khorne Terminators and Nurgle Terminators. All I want the option to give a unit a real mark (or something similar), essentially making them Terminators/bikers/raptors of whatever Legion I choose with the same benefits and hindrances a regular cult "tactical" squad would have. And not have one ing guy carry a ing banner, so they won't ing forget which deity they worship.
You might still need separate entries for the Cult troops choices, but units like bikers, havocs and raptors should be collapsible. If, for instance, Thousand Son Bikers don't pass the muster conceptually, you just leave out the option for MoT for Bikers. That would have to be done sparingly though, as I wouldn't want to see monogod armies be overly restricted. IMO those restrictions in the v3.5 codex helped lead to the Skittles approach with the v4 codex. The trick would be to swing the pendulum toward 3.5, but not so far that you return to the same old 3.5 problems. To me, this would probably require some new god/unit combos and the accompanying fluff retcons.
mythos' point about the undivided legions being "glue" is a good one, though. I think BL could serve in that role in a Cult CSM codex, though they'd also be the obvious competitive choice if they could pick units and marks however they see fit. So maybe they would have access to the separate Cult troops entries, but not to any marks on bikers, raptors, etc.?
Would really have been interesting to have been in the concepting meetings at the studio for this one.
If there's one thing I didn't like about 3.5 it was how some units couldn't get any marks. I can see why Nurgle Raptors would seem weird (though they would probably look awesome with the old chaos jetpacks) but why shouldn't there be Khorne dedicated jump troops?
And they need more vehicles. At least another Land Raider variant.
One unit that Chaos Space Marines needs, is some kind of Fast Attack vehicle. As it stands, Chaos has three coices... Raptors, bikers, or Spawn. Which really makes it two choices... I mean, who uses Spawn anyway?
IMO, the easiest way to do a legion book would be to use a 'mark' system similar to the marks of chaos in the current CSM book, however instead of Mark of Tzeentch, Nurgle, Undivided, etc. they should be Legion 'marks' (need a better name) each one coming with its own special rules/USRs and buffs/debuffs. This way you don't necessarily need to have 9+ unique units in each force org slot. Give HQs added abilities related to force org reshuffling and youre good to go.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
One thing that nobody seems to have considered is that Legion marines could have a better basic profile than renegade marines. They are 10,000 year veterans after all. This would differentiate the two codexes and mean that all nine legions would find their home in the new codex.
They could go the Blood Claws/Grey Hunters/Wolf Guard route to emphasise the difference between the rabble and the veterans.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Goood! Goooood!
Your hate has made you powerful. Now take your Privateer Press tape measure and strike me down with all your hatred and your journey to the dark side will be complete!!!
ZacktheChaosChild wrote:I'm still skeptical whether there will be a Legion 'dex.
It fits with rumors I hold..
I just hope the legions codex does not replace the daemons codex.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Dysartes wrote:And those of us who had to play against the v3.5 Hainesian monstrosity would much prefer it to remain dead, with a stake through it's cold dead heart - and preferably with all extant copies burned, their ashes spread to the seven winds, and all electronic copies degaussed into free-floating electrons...
Eh, my friend back in 3rd used the 3.5ed Night Lords, and did them well. Everything either had a jump pack, bike or infiltrated, and there were no tanks. It was a really fluffy list that hit hard and fast. He even had the much maligned 4 tank hunter autocannon Havoc squad which succeeded in never killing anything of worth.
Out of all of his armies, they were by far the most fun to fight against. In your face as soon as possible. However, he still only ever managed to win about 1/4 of uour games. True, I never played against the dreaded Iron Warriors mega list, but I always enjoyed fighting his lists from the 3.5ed Chaos book.
Alpharius wrote:I think that's usually handled by the Lord and "Chosen" entries, which allows all sorts of interesting combinations and tactics.
Which allowed, past tense, all sorts of interesting combinations and tactics. Now it’s just 4 special weapons. The Chosen Champion doesn’t even have any options to himself!
Anung Un Rama wrote:If there's one thing I didn't like about 3.5 it was how some units couldn't get any marks. I can see why Nurgle Raptors would seem weird (though they would probably look awesome with the old chaos jetpacks) but why shouldn't there be Khorne dedicated jump troops?
And they need more vehicles. At least another Land Raider variant.
*shutter* Imagine the drippage.
I think the restriction was imposed mostly out of balance, but fluff wise both emphasized combat doctrines that couldn't take advantage of it. Death guard preferred all on foot infantry formations of uniformly equipped troops with an emphasis on boarding actions. World Eaters preferred planetary assault by drop pod, rather than jump troops deployed from gunships.
A land raider would be easy... some variant of the reaper autocannon would be a simple way to equip it.
JoeyHeadwounds wrote:One unit that Chaos Space Marines needs, is some kind of Fast Attack vehicle. As it stands, Chaos has three coices... Raptors, bikers, or Spawn. Which really makes it two choices... I mean, who uses Spawn anyway?
I use spawn... but I agree, Chaos needs real fast attack choices and preferably something distinctly chaos. I've always thought demon engines in the vein of the Blood Slaughterer and Blight Drone are exactly what Chaos Marines need for fast attack choices; though it might be better if the units weren't necessarily god specific.
chaos0xomega wrote:IMO, the easiest way to do a legion book would be to use a 'mark' system similar to the marks of chaos in the current CSM book, however instead of Mark of Tzeentch, Nurgle, Undivided, etc. they should be Legion 'marks' (need a better name) each one coming with its own special rules/USRs and buffs/debuffs. This way you don't necessarily need to have 9+ unique units in each force org slot. Give HQs added abilities related to force org reshuffling and youre good to go.
That's a really good idea. At the same time I don't think those two types of marks are mutually exclusive. By utilizing one set of legion marks for some units and the god mark for other units they could allow different degrees of use and throttle the advantages. For example Chaos Bikers, while Death Guard might not necessarily have bikers of their own, they'd obviously be inclined to take nurgle worshiping bike mounted legionaries as allies; in that way GW could allow for more varied army composition while constraining them to a theme.
Alpharius wrote:I think that's usually handled by the Lord and "Chosen" entries, which allows all sorts of interesting combinations and tactics.
Which allowed, past tense, all sorts of interesting combinations and tactics. Now it’s just 4 special weapons. The Chosen Champion doesn’t even have any options to himself!
Well yes, I was speaking in both the past and future hopeful tenses!
So i could only bring myself to read the first page(tired) but i'll throw my thoughts in i guess.
Firstly i'm sad that Tau are getting pushed back but meh. More importantly do you think theres any chance Abaddon will get removed? Thats probably controversial but imho any rules that did him justice wouldn't be playable. I think hes far too powerful to have rules for. I say remove him and condemn him to canon, somewhere in between special characters and The Emperor would please me.
- 10,000 pts CSM 
ing guy carry a 
Orks: approx 4000 pts 
Uruk-hai force(700 pts) 
1500pts
2000pts
750pts
