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Do people oppose it for other than relgious regions? "Abomination" is the word used in the Pentateuch. I'm genuinely asking; I've never seen someone opposed to homosexuality on other than religious grounds.
Yeah, they exist, though often they will couch their opposition (which is generally little more than "Ewww!") in religious terminology; ie. people sometimes become religious without warning when topic X is brought up.
I have better things to do with my life than hating pointlessly. If you're gay, OK. It's not as if you're going to sneak in to my room at night and take pictures, and if you are, then you're just a sick person anyway. People who think that homosexuality is immoral are just deluding themeselves; it's not as if they're hurting anyone, and even if they are, it's not a choice. Then there's people who think it's unnatural. You might see 2 male giraffe humping, but you won't see them driving a car.
And then there's people who think it's a sin, simple as that. Well if God is a bigot, then I'm worshipping Satan.
Also, I can't believe this video hasn't been posted yet.
Coolyo294 wrote: You are a strange, strange little manchicken.
And this thread is still open, haters! That aside, I've heard the argument that from an evolutionary standpoint homosexuality is a means of the weaker of the species culling themselves by not reproducing. I wouldn't call that one traditionally religious at all.
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:And this thread is still open, haters! That aside, I've heard the argument that from an evolutionary standpoint homosexuality is a means of the weaker of the species culling themselves by not reproducing. I wouldn't call that one traditionally religious at all.
It is however bollocks. It's not a very efficient means by which to remove the weaker members of the species if homosexuality has been common throughout human history.
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:And this thread is still open, haters! That aside, I've heard the argument that from an evolutionary standpoint homosexuality is a means of the weaker of the species culling themselves by not reproducing. I wouldn't call that one traditionally religious at all.
It is however bollocks. It's not a very efficient means by which to remove the weaker members of the species if homosexuality has been common throughout human history.
I agree, I was just presenting another example. Pretty much anybody who is weirded out by it finds a justification.
Contrariwise there are evolutionary arguments as to why homosexuality can be useful and adaptive on a species and tribal level, even if it doesn't help the individual reproduce. Some of those theories were mentioned in the Dawkins video Melissia posted earlier in the thread.
MR: Yes. There are, for example, religious people who couch their dislike and denigration in loving and caring terms. And there are others who avoid religious terminology in favor of making spurious argumnents about societal cohesion, the breakdown of the family unit, and other deeply ignorant ideas which sound somewhat rational and unprejudiced if not examined. Which they often aren't, by people raised in circumstances where distate for homosexuals is expected and not really discussed. Some of these people are kids raised around implicit prejudice who don't think of themselves as prejudiced. Or even adults. Here's a letter to Dan Savage's column, followed by a link to an article which discusses it, (and of course Dan's response to this letter):
I heard an interview with you about your It Gets Better campaign. I was saddened and frustrated with your comments regarding people of faith and their perpetuation of bullying. As someone who loves the Lord and does not support gay marriage, I can honestly say I was heartbroken to hear about the young man who took his own life.
If your message is that we should not judge people based on their sexual preference, how do you justify judging entire groups of people for any other reason (including their faith)? There is no part of me that took any pleasure in what happened to that young man.
To that end, to imply that I would somehow encourage my children to mock, hurt, or intimidate another person for any reason is completely unfounded and offensive. Being a follower of Christ is, above all things, a recognition that we are all imperfect, fallible, and in desperate need of a savior. We cannot believe that we are better or more worthy than other people.
Please consider your viewpoint, and please be more careful with your words in the future.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/31 01:16:18
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Was I the only person who saw the title and wondered if Cannerus had released his own fragrance of cologne/perfume?
/did not want to wade through 11 pages of thread at 01:20am
Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.
Excerpt from "Seeress of Kell", Book Five of The Malloreon series by David Eddings.
"You need not fear us, unless you are a dark heart, a vile one who preys on the innocent; I promise, you can’t hide forever in the empty darkness, for we will hunt you down like the animals you are, and pull you into the very bowels of hell." Iron - Within Temptation
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/31 01:24:30
Prestor Jon wrote: Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
Yeah, someone could have just saved me a few braincells and told me that he was going to conflate a philosophical opposition to gay marriage with tacit approval of teenage bullying-related suicides. Way to decry poisonous generalizations by making them.
I'm friends with some gay people that aren't in favor of gay marriage. I suppose they like seeing dead gay children as well? I guess I've outgrown vitriolic punditry... Other than making his fans say "Hell yeah!" what was accomplished by that article?
Someone in the comments section actually had some sense, however. Beware of naughty language.
Spoiler:
When both sides throw rocks, both sides get hurt.
Christians are supposed to love, which is why the LGBT community gets extra upset about the hypocrisy those Christians represent. At the same time, the LGBT community is supposed to be all about tolerance, and yet some of them slam people of faith as violently as they themselves have been slammed.
No side is all of any one thing. Just because someone is LGBT doesn’t mean they are a nice person. Just because someone is Christian doesn’t mean they are a nice person. Both sides have their asshats.
And both sides should stand up to the asshats in BOTH groups.
The Christians who stand with the LGBT are true heroes, and I know so many of them. So let us please not slam ALL Christians. Or people of ANY faith.
That being said, too many people of faith use their faith as a way to perpetuate a hatred and bigotry that is in direct opposition of the teachings of that same faith. And when that results in bullying that contributes to the death of LGBT youth, it’s hard not to let the sheer tragedy overwhelm sensibility. We ALL need to stand up to hatred, and asshats, and that means standing together under the umbrella of shared values that says here in America people can follow the faith of their choice AND follow their hearts to love and marry the person of their choice. And as long as there is a legal definition of marriage, then every American should be able to participate and be legally married. And if you think there is this whole other, non-legal side of marriage as well, guess what? Gay people are already getting married that way.
So, love your fething neighbor and let them love whoever the feth they want. LEGALLY. I don’t know why this is so difficult for so many people to understand.
But it makes me cranky. :-P
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2011/10/31 01:55:12
Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
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Haters gon' hate.
Monster Rain wrote:Yeah, someone could have just saved me a few braincells and told me that he was going to conflate a philosophical opposition to gay marriage with tacit approval of teenage bullying-related suicides. Way to decry poisonous generalizations by making them.
He's not conflating a philosophical opposition to gay marriage with tacit approval of teenage bullying-related suicides. He's saying that opposing gay marriage is, in most if not all cases, contributing to the environment and treatment of gay kids which does lead to them killing themselves more than other kids.
He's pointing out that if you don't think opposing gay marriage isn't, at least to some extent, treating them as second-class citizens or lesser people you're lying to yourself. If you're a Christian who opposes gay marriage, but doesn't also equally oppose athiest marriage, or divorce, then you are treating gay people differently and more harshly. And if you have these unadmitted prejudices, it is quite likely that you are passing them onto your own kids, who may not be as gentle in how they treat gay people, or people they perceive as being gay.
Monster Rain wrote:I'm friends with some gay people that aren't in favor of gay marriage.
Really? Are they opposed to the idea of marriage in general? Or are they making the joke about not wanting to be pressured by their parents about getting married the way straight people do?
Monster Rain wrote:I suppose they like seeing dead gay children as well? I guess I've outgrown vitriolic punditry... Other than making his fans say "Hell yeah!" what was accomplished by that article? Do you think the people that we're trying to convince to let their backward ideas go are going to respond positively to it?
Maybe, maybe not. Most of us are using sweet reason. Sometimes a verbal slap in the face is appropriate. Martin Luther King Jr. was famously nonviolent, but his rhetoric was pretty angry and fierce at times. I doubt he ever publicly said "feth you" to bigots, but just getting up in public and shouting about it was as good as doing so, in those days. He was provocative and he was angry. Dan's no MLK, but he's justifiably angry too.
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Mannahnin wrote:He's pointing out that if you don't think opposing gay marriage isn't, at least to some extent, treating them as second-class citizens or lesser people you're lying to yourself. If you're a Christian who opposes gay marriage, but doesn't also equally oppose athiest marriage, or divorce, then you are treating gay people differently and more harshly.
I don't see how the atheism thing plays into it, but yeah, denying people rights is bad.
Mannahnin wrote:Really? Are they opposed to the idea of marriage in general? Or are they making the joke about not wanting to be pressured by their parents about getting married the way straight people do?
No, they're quite serious. They're fine with being different. They just want the same legal benefits of marriage and don't care about what they see as seeking approval from us breeders.
Mannahnin wrote:Dan's no MLK, but he's justifiably angry too.
He's going to have cause to be angry longer than is necessary if people can't find common ground and actually work toward solutions without automatically hating people that have a different worldview than them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/31 02:12:18
Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate.
Mannahnin wrote:He's pointing out that if you don't think opposing gay marriage isn't, at least to some extent, treating them as second-class citizens or lesser people you're lying to yourself. If you're a Christian who opposes gay marriage, but doesn't also equally oppose athiest marriage, or divorce, then you are treating gay people differently and more harshly.
I don't see how the atheism thing plays into it, but yeah, denying people rights is bad.
Well, if you're working from one of the traditional Christian definitions of marriage (which is what people who argue about wanting to preserve "traditional marriage" always mean), it wouldn't be something available to nonbelievers. Heck, one might also oppose interfaith marriages.
Monster Rain wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:Really? Are they opposed to the idea of marriage in general? Or are they making the joke about not wanting to be pressured by their parents about getting married the way straight people do?
No, they're quite serious. They're fine with being different. They just want the same legal benefits of marriage and don't care about what they see as seeking approval from us breeders.
Okay, so they DO expect to get the same rights and protections. They just don't care about the word. Of course, if you just use the word, you don't have to re-write thousands of Federal and local laws pertaining to marriage. IME gay folks who take this position usually are doing it out of pragmatism, figuring it's easier to cede the word to the bigots than to change their minds.
Monster Rain wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:Dan's no MLK, but he's justifiably angry too.
He's going to have cause to be angry longer than is necessary if people can't find common ground and actually work toward solutions without automatically hating people that have a different worldview than them.
Right, and he doesn't actually hate them. He gets angry at them sometimes and might curse at them occasionally, but he's a very thoughtful and rational person who does do a lot of constructive and practical work on these issues. In this case he got a person who has not examined their own prejudice whining that their feelings are hurt, by strong rhetoric used in a campaign to reduce the number of dying kids, who are killing themselves due to more harsh expressions of the same prejudices held by the complainer.
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Mannahnin wrote:Okay, so they DO expect to get the same rights and protections. They just don't care about the word. Of course, if you just use the word, you don't have to re-write thousands of Federal and local laws pertaining to marriage. IME gay folks who take this position usually are doing it out of pragmatism, figuring it's easier to cede the word to the bigots than to change their minds.
Oh it's definitely based in pragmatism. Sadly, you aren't going to change some people's minds. Ever.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mannahnin wrote:Right, and he doesn't actually hate them.
I get a very different vibe from a lot of his work.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/10/31 02:43:09
Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate.
Using kids will almost always elicit an emotional response, if someone says "Think of the children." it may be because they don't have an actual reason why a person should agree with them.
I don't think that anyone should be married by the government, now a domestic partnership I can see but I don't think that the government has the right to tell someone who they can be with so much as they are consenting adults. Homosexuals and heterosexuals should be able to get domestic partnerships from the government.
Mannahnin wrote:Okay, so they DO expect to get the same rights and protections. They just don't care about the word. Of course, if you just use the word, you don't have to re-write thousands of Federal and local laws pertaining to marriage. IME gay folks who take this position usually are doing it out of pragmatism, figuring it's easier to cede the word to the bigots than to change their minds.
Oh it's definitely based in pragmatism. Sadly, you aren't going to change some people's minds. Ever.
Sure, but you can change the culture, and gradually those bigots' views are marginalized and finally they die out. We're still in that long process for blatant racism in our society; it's not dead by a long shot, but it's much less common than it once was, and almost if not totally gone from the law. Gay folks aren't as far along that road yet, but they'll get there too, I think.
Monster Rain wrote:[
Mannahnin wrote:Right, and he doesn't actually hate them.
I get a very different vibe from a lot of his work.
I guarantee you that he doesn't hate people like the one who wrote that letter. He just gets a bit angry and frustrated with them at times. I imagine he does hate some of the more hateful people out there; like the ones who literally still commit or sanction violence against innocent people based on their real or perceived sexual orientation. Remember he's a bit older than you and me, too, so he's got more direct and personal experience of when our society was even more hateful and less-tolerant toward "his kind"; he was a teenager during Anita Bryant's campaigns, and when Harvey Milk was shot, as examples.
Anyway, I take your point about anger. Of course, some other important social activists have also expressed themselves in angry terms from time to time. Some of them have even gotten violent.
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I go away for a working holiday and Cannerus is running lose with yet more of these threads...
MikZor wrote:
We can't help that american D&D is pretty much daily life for us (Aussies)
Walking to shops, "i'll take a short cut through this bush", random encounter! Lizard with no legs.....
I kid Since i avoid bushlands that is But we're not that bad... are we?
I mean, Salma Hayek and Gemma Arterton exist, so it has to be possible.
Concur!
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Cheesecat wrote:While, on the topic of sexuality do any of you guys think it's possible to be in love with more than one person at the same time?
I believe so. Then again, I believe that you can have intercourse with multiple people (With the group's consent) at the same time.Not all at once, however. A man's gotta breathe.
Every Normal Man Must Be Tempted At Times To Spit On His Hands, Hoist That Black Flag, And Begin Slitting Throats.
Cheesecat wrote:While, on the topic of sexuality do any of you guys think it's possible to be in love with more than one person at the same time?
I was poly for a brief period so anecdotally, yes. However, I firmly believe that the love can only be so deep for either (or any) person at that point. You'll also inevitably end up loving someone more than another just a little at various times. I don't think any person can have a "marriage-level" of love for more than one person at once, honestly (plus polygamy always turns into someone getting abused).
Chowderhead wrote:I believe so. Then again, I believe that you can have intercourse with multiple people (With the group's consent) at the same time.Not all at once, however. A man's gotta breathe.
...must...refrain...comment...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/31 13:19:54
Actually on topic, I had someone ask me "since I was dating a girl, am I going to stay bi?" It amazes me that people can be that level of ignorant still. It may have been masked aggression, but whatever.
As I said before, disliking gays makes no sense at all because there absolutely is no choice in the matter, isnt that fundamentally what it all boils down to?
Haters say they dislike their "lifestyle choice", but it clearly isn't a choice, because I don't choose to like women, I am a slave to my loins and they demand that I leer at women, slap their asses when they walk past me in the street, and toss good natured family friendly verbal sexual assaults in their direction.
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
mattyrm wrote: I am a slave to my loins and they demand that I leer at women, slap their asses when they walk past me in the street, and toss good natured family friendly verbal sexual assaults in their direction.
You and I just became interwebz best friends forever. And I have now stolen that bit for future use.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
mattyrm wrote: I am a slave to my loins and they demand that I leer at women, slap their asses when they walk past me in the street, and toss good natured family friendly verbal sexual assaults in their direction.
You and I just became interwebz best friends forever. And I have now stolen that bit for future use.
Happy to help old bean.
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Actually on topic, I had someone ask me "since I was dating a girl, am I going to stay bi?" It amazes me that people can be that level of ignorant still. It may have been masked aggression, but whatever.
As I mentioned in I think my first post , my wife often gets her bisexuality called into question because she is married to me. In fact I think the poorest responses come from gay people, who think that her views on sexual orientation don't count for as much because she doesn't have a same sex partner which is particularly annoying at events promoting equality.
Bisexuals are still described as 'greedy' or that they are 'in a phase', 'can't make their mind up', 'not really gay' or something else equally moronic as though how gay you are is some sort of contest. It annoys me no end that some homosexuals whine about discrimination while taking that attitude towards bisexuals.
That aside, I've heard the argument that from an evolutionary standpoint homosexuality is a means of the weaker of the species culling themselves by not reproducing. I wouldn't call that one traditionally religious at all.
I guess I've outgrown vitriolic punditry... Other than making his fans say "Hell yeah!" what was accomplished by that article?
