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Yup, 'nids win. They are so numerous, they're practically infinite.

Hunchkrot wrote:

DeffDred wrote:Orks win. It would take till the end of time but the orks would win.

Don't Tyranids cause all biomatter on a planet to go crazy? Don't they make plants grow huge so there is more to eat when the swarms land?

Orks are plants. The spores would florish in the hours before the swarm proper arrives.

The the orks would breed as needed. More tyranids? More orks!

Ork tek defies logic and physics. What if a Mek created a guargant that had a suppa shokk attack gun that sucked up the swarms frontlines and just hurled uneddible chaotic goo back at the big bugs?

Orks grow as they become more powerful. In a few years time satalite images would see biotitans and ork bosses thesize of cities headbutting one another!

And orks are excellent at sanitizing worlds. Burna boys ftw.

Oh yeah? Well what if the Tyranids had a gun that sprayed anti-ork acid all over everything? what if they put glue on the orks feet so that they couldn't move? what if the Tyranids teamed up with the imperium and the Hive Mind and Emperor became great pals and played warhammer Fantasy on the weekend?

Seriously though, your argument has a few too many "what ifs". I might even venture to say that not one sentence of that post is even partially valid. Also, spores are a fungus thing.

Guess you missed the humor there.

rabidaskal wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

rabidaskal wrote:As to the whole tip of the iceberg thing, I'd rather leave that out, just because all factions have that card, its GW's way of making everything whoa, grimdark!

That's cool, we'll ignore that fluff. Since "more Orks turn up the bigger a fight gets" is pretty much the Ork equivalent, we'll ignore that too.

Anyone got some other fluff they want to ignore to make their argument actually work?

If we don't ignore that fluff, then yes the tyranids auto-win. Is that what you wanted to hear? Its correct but makes very boring discussion.

And the orks have no equivalent because even vs the tyranids current in the galaxy, the "tip of the iceberg", I don't know if they can win. Ergo much less so against the rest of the iceberg.

The 'tip of the iceberg' thing is key to Tyranids methods of attack - numbers. Pure, crushing numbers of organisms. Even Orks don't rely on numbers like Tyranids. So ignoring their numbers is ignoring the key part of what makes them Tyranids. They've got their adaptability, but on the whole, a single small Tyranid against even a single human or Ork in a fair fight will see the Tyranid a smoking carcass on the ground. Tyranids numbers need to be considered, because its how they fight. So when you're discussing Tyranids on a galactic scale, ignoring the vast numbers still approaching the galaxy is of course going to have the Tyranids on the bad end of the stick.

No infinite number of Tyranids could ever win out in the 40k universe. The great God of Nerfbats shall descend to ensure a few thousand SM kill them all . . . somehow.

Ork vs Tyranid is, imo, the best battle to be had and I don't care who wins as long as they duke it out like the real men of the 40k universe. As Skarfang said, "Dis ain't no stinkin' scrap against puny gits dat run and hide behind walls when the killing starts, dis is proper fightin."

Orks for sure!

Okay, people are trying to say that tyranids can adapt to the tactics Orks have.....Anyone see a huge loophole? Every Ork army has different tactics; Evil Sunz attacks at fast speeds, Goffz fight in "militaristic" style, Blood Axes use stealth and "underhand" tactics most Orks disagree with, Snakebites just fight in a savage style, Bad Moonz has expensive and flashy war gear that "works" most of the time, and DeffSkullz just use any weapon they come across. On top of that; even if they're from the same klan, no two WAAAGH! are the same.

If Orks and Tyranids are in every galaxy (Or many, or few). Then, supposedly the Tyranids and Orks have fought before.
If they have fought before, would not the Tyranids already have devoured the Orkish essence and now be able to kill them without thought?
This logical path shows that the Tyranids have been unable to master the Orkish genes.

Big Mek Grodclog Mekgrim wrote:Okay, people are trying to say that tyranids can adapt to the tactics Orks have.....Anyone see a huge loophole? Every Ork army has different tactics; Evil Sunz attacks at fast speeds, Goffz fight in "militaristic" style, Blood Axes use stealth and "underhand" tactics most Orks disagree with, Snakebites just fight in a savage style, Bad Moonz has expensive and flashy war gear that "works" most of the time, and DeffSkullz just use any weapon they come across. On top of that; even if they're from the same klan, no two WAAAGH! are the same.

Same could be said about the IG and all the worlds that compose the galaxy...
Hell even SM to an extend.

Yes, but they all follow a certain set of rules to a point. Orks: who ever is the biggest and greenest is in charge (with some bashed heads, to be a true warboss). They don't have a protocol to go into battle as (Goffs have this a little though), but they still get the job done. Every separate mob has its own agendas they come up with as they go; no orders, no planning, only Ork goodness that boggles their enemies. Even on the tabletop, Orks are the only ones who can steal the initiative from The Stormlord, because even the greatest Necron can't can't plan the movements of the Orks.

Considering that the Tyranids managed to utterly and totally dominate the Orks on a tactical level, to the point where a single spore-ship's worth of Tyranids managed to literally take over an entire Ork-held planet, I would say your point kind of goes out the window. The Tyranids have more than proven that they can run tactical circles around the Orks, regardless of their iconic unpredictability.

Not that Orks are actually all that unpredictable anyway. The fluff says they are, but we see time and again Imperial/Eldar/Tyranid commanders ambushing orks, luring them into traps, assassinating their leaders, and generally just coming up with affective strategies to undermine Ork armies.

If Orks were truly unpredictable, that wouldn't happen.

Okay, let's back up a little. The reason why they managed to conquer an entire planet of Orks is because they killed the leader, who lead from the front and always pushed back any assault with his presence on the battlefield alone. Reason why other armies beat the Orks, is because Orks when they get going and they are filled with primal energy, they only focusing on fighting to the end of battle and don't care if they're beginning to lose; if they get to fight, they fight.

Hence, they're predictable.

Do you think the Tyranids killed their warboss on accident? Like, it just happened, and the 'nids were like "..oh, snap. Did we just kill their leader?"

No, of course not. The 'Nids knew exactly what to do to bring the Warboss out into the open. They knew what to do, because Orks are predictable.

The same goes for the other races beating them. If you can sit around a strategy table and go "Okay so we'll set up a trap here and the Orks will go for it and we'll set up a firing lane here to herd them there" etc etc, then that force is predictable.

Which, the Orks are.

Stop talking like a imperial guardsmen. Some Orks don't just head in like that; Kommandos prefer to creep in the underbrush, waiting for the moment to attack and screw the enemy gunline. We also have to understand that they have Tellyportas, as well as more Orkish weapons that are killy as well.

BlaxicanX wrote:Hence, they're predictable.

Do you think the Tyranids killed their warboss on accident? Like, it just happened, and the 'nids were like "..oh, snap. Did we just kill their leader?"

No, of course not. The 'Nids knew exactly what to do to bring the Warboss out into the open. They knew what to do, because Orks are predictable.

The same goes for the other races beating them. If you can sit around a strategy table and go "Okay so we'll set up a trap here and the Orks will go for it and we'll set up a firing lane here to herd them there" etc etc, then that force is predictable.

Which, the Orks are.

Predictable? Is that how the Orks beat Farsight at his own game? Is that how the Orks managed to cripple shipping lanes around Armageddon and bring Armageddon itself into an eternal war? By being predicatble? No.

And I guess all Imperial Guardsmen can beat Space Marines without difficulty.

Or maybe that's just the Ghosts, and trying to make exceptions the rule doesn't support your point at all.

Ghazgull is THEE most famous Ork Warboss in history for a reason. Trying to imply that his tactics are generic for an Ork is lulz-worthy.

Well first of all the orks ability to cooperate would be their savior and or downfall. Also tyrinnids have a shared intellect so logistics would be simple as keeping the synapese creatures alive and reproducing even simpler if a bio ship actually landed on the planet exerting its massive synapse energy. But orks individual mind set would allow creativity and tactics to develop if the orks could quell their infighting they would develop tactics for fighting the bugs and orks that survive could pass the knowledge to new orks increasing their survival rate and also all the unified mekboys several million or more could pump out weapons and arms so quickly that the orks logistics wouldn't be a problem. But this is also inferring other races didn't interject which they most certainly would eldar seers would most definently deem tyrinnids a greater threat and try to help the orks imperium would attack them both chaos would kill all as well as necrons kill all tau would attack the nids but not help the orks so yeah whatcha ya think

The swarmlord is leading the war, and nothing has yet killed the swarmlord.

kinratha wrote:The swarmlord is leading the war, and nothing has yet killed the swarmlord.

TheSwarmlord outsmarted Calgar, Telion, and whatever other UM heroes were at Cold Steel Ridge. Orks are not as smart as Calgar. It's only a matter of time now.

I would imagine orks would be the most difficult foe for nids to face.

Orks do not have a combat doctrine, their existence is combat. Combat is not some specialized branch of their society, they do not have some special technological, caste, political caste, worker caste, or anything. There entire society is based solely on conflict.

That in mind they do not fight on large scales like other races do, planetary resources are probably not their first concern, they do not care about passing along information really since they have innate know hows, there is no need for a real retreat and other races who need to request for reinforcements could end up getting refused for any numerous reasons.

orks do not request help, more orks just come. and come and come and come to a single point where the conflict is.

nids do have nearly infinite numbers but orks are more than happy to fight in 1 single area and just continuously feed into it without fear of death, without request for help, without fear of loss, without any real tactical reason.

It would come down to if the nids could actually overtake an area of conflict and harvest biomass they would win in an area, but if the orks push them out or its pretty much a stalemate the dead orks are just going into a fungal cycle and will make more orks, and the nids only get the biomass they manage to haul off which is probably not much.

as for the swarmlord, the hive mind spawns them when its 1 person who is the threat it cannot overcome, they probably wouldnt spawn a swarmlord for orks, orks are not that cohesive. Even if they did orks do not have a logical thought pattern to conflict, so all the cunning, and logistical insight the swarmlord has would not be as useful as it would against a race with a more normal and sound combat doctrine.

Swarmlord's already been spawned. I think Necrons and Daemons are the Nid's biggest foes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, The Swarmlord doesn't pick one target and annihilate him. He is capable of adapting to any kind of battle situation, exploiting a weak point and then hitting the enemy in their open spots before even they know what happened. Also, since the Swarmlord's conscious has been preserved since he was first spawned in some far off galaxy, so he remembers every little battle, every detail of every unit, that he has encountered in the minimum of 1000 years he's been alive.

Running with the Theme of the Swarmlord and the current stalemate;

Maybe even not even super-gensis can figure the Orks out? It's obvious that Orks can
be predictable when they're being lead by a great Warboss, but when every Nob worth his salt
is fighting for the title....well let's just say it probably the biggest mistake to make
against the Orks as an army that needs to win at all costs. Since the *rest* of the galaxy's
races, to include the factions of Chaos don't need to WAAC, the 'Nids are up poop creek
without a paddle in a prolong fight with the Orks. Reasons as follows;



Since both races feed off of total war (Orks with fighting, Nids with biomass)
this is going to be the war of all ages.

Orks will win if they can contain the battle front and keep it from involving other races, who would
doubtless get in the way of Orky progess and 'feed the bear' . 'Nids have proven in thier galatic sweep method
that most areas of space are largely unguarded and given enough time will always allow a wounded Hive fleet
to regrow and attack again. For them, time and distance are the greatest allies. (The longer the Fleet lives, the
stronger it gets, and the weaker everyone else becomes!) It also seems the Tyranids excell at fighting multiple
threats with the simplest of methods, drowning them in bodies!

Personally, I see the forces of Chaos uniting in order to deal with the 'Nids, as it was thier playground first, and they
need the races and bodies there in order to keep playing games. Besides that, The FoC are the only 'race' that have the power,
ruthlessness and motivation to wipe out the Tyranids; everyone else is content to let them run rampant as long as the
'Nid stay out of thier backyard.

The problem with the theory of the Orks fighting each other and culling the weaker Orks in search of a new Warbaoss is that's also weakening their own numbers. Since the Swarmlord arrived and started going around assassinating Warbosses, two continents of Octarius have fallen. This bears that theory out. Every time he kills a Warboss, the Orks fall into disarray and fight over the position, letting the Tyranids take more ground.

The Tyranids are 'winning' on Octarius, at least according to the most recent fluff. They're gaining ground, and driving Orks off. It's just taking time. If you want to go into net loss on biomass, they're likely losing, but GW doesn't go into that.

blaktoof wrote:I would imagine orks would be the most difficult foe for nids to face.

Orks do not have a combat doctrine, their existence is combat. Combat is not some specialized branch of their society, they do not have some special technological, caste, political caste, worker caste, or anything. There entire society is based solely on conflict.

That in mind they do not fight on large scales like other races do, planetary resources are probably not their first concern, they do not care about passing along information really since they have innate know hows, there is no need for a real retreat and other races who need to request for reinforcements could end up getting refused for any numerous reasons.

orks do not request help, more orks just come. and come and come and come to a single point where the conflict is.

nids do have nearly infinite numbers but orks are more than happy to fight in 1 single area and just continuously feed into it without fear of death, without request for help, without fear of loss, without any real tactical reason.

It would come down to if the nids could actually overtake an area of conflict and harvest biomass they would win in an area, but if the orks push them out or its pretty much a stalemate the dead orks are just going into a fungal cycle and will make more orks, and the nids only get the biomass they manage to haul off which is probably not much.

as for the swarmlord, the hive mind spawns them when its 1 person who is the threat it cannot overcome, they probably wouldnt spawn a swarmlord for orks, orks are not that cohesive. Even if they did orks do not have a logical thought pattern to conflict, so all the cunning, and logistical insight the swarmlord has would not be as useful as it would against a race with a more normal and sound combat doctrine.

A true Ork like me. Yes, the swarmlord is making it easier for the Nids to gain ground; but each time the Orks come back with more enthusiasm than before. Pretty soon the Orks will have enough to just push back and win it.

Bloody Adair wrote:Running with the Theme of the Swarmlord and the current stalemate;

Maybe even not even super-gensis can figure the Orks out? It's obvious that Orks can
be predictable when they're being lead by a great Warboss, but when every Nob worth his salt
is fighting for the title....well let's just say it probably the biggest mistake to make
against the Orks as an army that needs to win at all costs. Since the *rest* of the galaxy's
races, to include the factions of Chaos don't need to WAAC, the 'Nids are up poop creek
without a paddle in a prolong fight with the Orks. Reasons as follows;

Spoiler:

1) Without a Warboss ALL Orks are going to be hyperagressive and trying to get to
be the biggest and baddest = bigger, meaner Orks as a whole. The weak ones would
simply not survive the other Orks. And even without the 'uper orky tech, these guys are
an even match to anything the 'Nids throw out creature wise. and since the 'Nids always
try to win at the cheapest level, I sincerely doubt they'll often ramp up to thier particular band
of super big guns. (because it would be too costly in the long run with the breeding cycle/biomass)

2) With the Ork phyisology in overdrive the 'Nids are going to be struggling to break even
in biomass; so much so they will be forced as a whole to 'go around' the Ork held worlds while
still fighting on that same battle front. During which the Orks will chase, no matter the cost to
themselves, simple because they couldn't fathom where thier 'best buddies' are running away for.
And it wouldn't be fear of the Orks that drive the 'Nids away, just the simple need to feed in order to keep up with
the ever toughening Ork horde.

Since both races feed off of total war (Orks with fighting, Nids with biomass)
this is going to be the war of all ages.

Orks will win if they can contain the battle front and keep it from involving other races, who would
doubtless get in the way of Orky progess and 'feed the bear' . 'Nids have proven in thier galatic sweep method
that most areas of space are largely unguarded and given enough time will always allow a wounded Hive fleet
to regrow and attack again. For them, time and distance are the greatest allies. (The longer the Fleet lives, the
stronger it gets, and the weaker everyone else becomes!) It also seems the Tyranids excell at fighting multiple
threats with the simplest of methods, drowning them in bodies!

Personally, I see the forces of Chaos uniting in order to deal with the 'Nids, as it was thier playground first, and they
need the races and bodies there in order to keep playing games. Besides that, The FoC are the only 'race' that have the power,
ruthlessness and motivation to wipe out the Tyranids; everyone else is content to let them run rampant as long as the
'Nid stay out of thier backyard.

I don't think the Orks have any kind of defense against the Nids' bigger organisms other than massed stompas. But while Nids would have a tough time figuring the orks' tactics out (they still would), they would figure out how to fight their physiology. Just like when Hive fleet Gorgon fought the Tau, the Tyranids would adapt skin that resisted sluggas, or lithe bodies to move around them in melee, or Ork hide-piercing claws. I do agree with you on the Chaos idea, though. It would take nothing short of all 4 gods to defeat the Hive Mind for good.

I have always thought of Orks and Tyranids as the same species.

I think Orks are an advanced strain of Tyranid that came to the galaxy long long ago and settled more agreeably with the native ecosystems. I think Orks far outnumber Tyranids, plus any other 40k races for that matter. I wouldn't be surprised either if the "Old Ones" turned out to be decidedly "Orky", making the Eldar, Necrons, Humans, etc etc all just advanced mutations of Orks.

I think ultimately the Orks would detroy the Tyranids, with bonus points for them winning via infecting them with something that nullifed Tyranid hunger then turning them into beasts or burden/oversized Squigs/allies in general.

Meanwhile, humanity can just sort itself out with regards to Chaos and then ascend into some higher form of life in the warp itself

Casbyness wrote:I have always thought of Orks and Tyranids as the same species.

I think Orks are an advanced strain of Tyranid that came to the galaxy long long ago and settled more agreeably with the native ecosystems. I think Orks far outnumber Tyranids, plus any other 40k races for that matter. I wouldn't be surprised either if the "Old Ones" turned out to be decidedly "Orky", making the Eldar, Necrons, Humans, etc etc all just advanced mutations of Orks.

I think ultimately the Orks would detroy the Tyranids, with bonus points for them winning via infecting them with something that nullifed Tyranid hunger then turning them into beasts or burden/oversized Squigs/allies in general.

Meanwhile, humanity can just sort itself out with regards to Chaos and then ascend into some higher form of life in the warp itself

Well, that's certainly an original viewpoint!

Casbyness wrote:I have always thought of Orks and Tyranids as the same species.

I think Orks are an advanced strain of Tyranid that came to the galaxy long long ago and settled more agreeably with the native ecosystems.

Not possible. The Tyranids are on their twelfth galaxy now - us. Simple travel time between galaxies means that the Tyranids simply weren't anywhere remotely close to the Milky Way when the Old Ones were kicking about. That's travel time only between those galaxies, not counting the time it took to eat them, and the fact that they'd have been far slower at it on the first half dozen due to not being as large a race.

Casbyness wrote:I think Orks far outnumber Tyranids, plus any other 40k races for that matter.

The 6th edition rulebook disagrees with you.

Casbyness wrote:I think ultimately the Orks would detroy the Tyranids, with bonus points for them winning via infecting them with something that nullifed Tyranid hunger then turning them into beasts or burden/oversized Squigs/allies in general.

Oh yeah? Tyranids could make a spore to take advantage of the Orks fungal nature to turn them into rooted mushrooms.

I can make things up too.

Casbyness wrote:Meanwhile, humanity can just sort itself out with regards to Chaos and then ascend into some higher form of life in the warp itself

Humanity is losing its war with Chaos, and Tyranids and Orks are hardly the only alien races battering against them.

You really need to read some more fluff before trying to win a fluff debate by making things up.

Humanity is losing its war with Chaos

Actually, humanity usually wins its wars with the various armed forces of Chaos.

What Chaos is winning in, however, is not its wars. The four dark "gods" of Chaos couldn't care less about winning its wars. Khorne wants to spill blood and cause battles, and in this he succeeds. Nurgle wants to spread pestilence and decay, and in this he succeeds. Slaanesh wants to spread hedonism and perfectionism, and in this s/he succeeds. And Tzeentch wants to cause plots within plots that plot about plotting with plotters that are plotting against the plotting plotter plots that plot while plotting against Tzeentch's plots-- and in this he succeeds.

Their goals aren't a military victory over the Imperium.

DemetriDominov wrote:

Melissia wrote:

A dead Ork is one less fighter against the biological machine that is the Tyrannid race. Orks cannot do this against the Tyrannids.

Actually, a dead Ork means that a dozen more will pop up soon.

Which only means 12 more things to infect and make more food.

Now put those 12 orks against a single nid

Nutsi wrote:

Now put those 12 orks against a single nid

Going way back just to pull me back to this thread...