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I know in the ork codex it says if all the orks joined together they would be unstoppable, but tyrannids can be just as numerous, so which would win



 
   
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I do believe you answered your own question good sir. The orks would krump dem' bugz
   
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Temple Prime

The answer is simple, the winner is "whomever is the star of the codex with said battle."

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The ones not taking any part of this, unless the Tyrannids win, because then they will be even more numerous.

But I'll cast my vote on the orks, eventually they will figure that they have to kill the "big unz" first. Right?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/27 01:33:03


 
   
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They already know that. The problem for the Tyranids is that the longer the Orks fight, the bigger and stronger they get, the more inspired their mekboyz become, the more fearsome the war the Orks can bring. Meanwhile the Tyranids have limited resources and must end the battle quickly lest they be worn down by the Orks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/27 02:15:43


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Deffinetly, Orks would win, the more fighting, the more orks, the more orks, the more WAAAGH energy, and then the orks get bigger and better... it'd really terrible to think about haha plus, tyranids don't really gang up on bigger enemies like orks do

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somewhere in the webway

i would think that the orcs would get more kunning and learn how to smash the bugs but good... and of course the meks and doks would get new inspirations... probally some weird orc with grafted on scytals...

but the tyranids evolve as well. the swarmlord and even basic tyrants would evolove and adapt to orcish weapons, and simply devour them. would also have to consider the theater of battle... is it on a tyranid world so the orcs initiate, or are the nids invading an orc world? if the latter, then the processing and devouring of the planet would also likley consume and destroy any orc spores, effectivly nuetering the orc reproductive system.

i like the orcs more then the nids, but i would have to go with the tyranids in this one.. they have faster reproduction that dosent rely on biomass spreading, and they consume the biomass of their foes, and anything else. orcs would fight a glorious battle but i think would come up short. plus, tyranid evoultion is generally spot on reliability... orcish inventions and 'ideas' may or may not work. a mek is just as likley to blow himself and his buddies up then actually kill the tyranids with his new 'bugzappa' . so yea... orcs loose unfortunitly.

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It would be a hella fight, but my money would be on the Orks. They get better, they get bigger and the bigger the fight the more Orks will come a running.

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Can't tell you. It's a secret...

What people seem to forget is that the Nids feed on biomass. It does not have to be enemy biomass, since they can absorb any kind of it. Also the Nids adapt and absorb the most powerful characteristics of the creatures they kill (hence Genestealers and Nids with peculiar forms).

So in my book, this would be a hell of a fight but I would be seeing the Nids having slightly bigger chances to win.


Also was there not a particular Inquisitor that thought that the Orks could destroy a hivefleet and re-directed it to their homeworlds and after several years of conflicts the tide seems to turn in favor of the Nids? Unfortunately I do not remember specifics so do not take this as a point, until either I or someone else provides a quote for it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/27 08:56:48


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They feed off bio mass, but 1: they have to win to feed off it and 2: the bigger and harder the fight the better and more orks you get. The more Orks you get the more things go...odd

I think you are talking about the Octanus war. In that case the Inquisitor thought the nids could take out the Orks for the IoM as the ork empire was doing some righteous ass whooping The Nids took some worlds early, one easy by numbers, the other took a very long time. Once they hit Octanus they got stuck and are still stuck. They keep eating orks but orkks keep getting stronger and bigger and now it has spilled over more or less the whole area as Orks from lightyears all around come to "The big Fight". The Nids are adapting and getting stronger, but it is unlikely they can over come the massive WAAAGH that looks to be a coming.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/27 09:25:28


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Can't tell you. It's a secret...

Hunterindarkness wrote:1: they have to win to feed off it and 2: the bigger and harder the fight the better and more orks you get. The more Orks you get the more things go...odd


On the first point you don't have to win all the battles to win a war. Since the OP's question has not specified if this is one great battle or a war I assumed that we are talking about a war. As such a full scale war would be different. Sure the Nids would lose some of the battles but they would definitely win some as well. So for the winning battles we have: % of casualties of the enemy ( we are talking about Orks = large amount of biomass) + % of own casualties + probability of new genes and strengths implemented to the swarm.

Second point. Touche.

Finally, on the example this is but a Single HiveFleet (if I recall) and the Nids already have several other HiveFleets over the universe + splinter fleets that are growing ( I am excluding any possibility of extra hivefleets that have not yet reached the galaxy as it is an unknown factor)

Only a few years later, in 997.M41 Hive Fleet Leviathan unexpectedly appeared from "below" the plane of the galaxy (on the Z axis) and attacked from two points, cutting off large portions of the galaxy from reinforcements. Just as it seemed the defenses of the Segmentum Solar and perhaps Terra itself would be tested, the Tyranids were distracted by being deflected into the star system of a powerful Ork empire. While the Orks are managing to stall the main Tyranid Hive Fleet's advance, they are likely to reemerge from these battles, victorious and stronger than ever after having absorbed potent Orkoid genetic material into their own genome pool.


This is what I was talking about. Ok I know its the wikia but I don't have the codex at hand

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/27 09:49:48


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That is indeed the Octanus war. A stalemate that has spilled across a few dozen worlds and has seen the number or Orks growing,

The Orks are showing up faster, in greater number and respawning quicker then the Nids can "eat em all" and respawn themselves.

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This is in the nids codex and they are in a stalemate, with the Octanus war. But another fleet had same problem there where to many orcs so they just lictors kill the warlord and boom orcs are fighting each other again to see who the boss man is

IF the orcs could stay unified then orcs I could see having a narrow win, but even if they did all the nids have to do is kill off a few orcs and they can have the orcs fighting them self again

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The key point in the orks victory, is that the 'nids can't call for help, the fleets fight themselves, but orks will always jump in for a big fight, doesn't really matter who's involved, and since the 'nids would prove tenacious, you'd get a massive WAAAGH on whatever planet they fight on, eventually the orks would drown the 'nids in bodies. (oh irony) Fact is, Orks were designed to never really loose, they have failsafes inbred in them .___.

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If all the bacteria on earth joined together, humans wouldn't stand a chance.
It's moot, really.

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I don't know.... its interesting. if it was real who can really know? my vote is for the orks. now if you go by the lame board game.... Orks for sure
   
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this is interesting...

When an ork die, he release spores that become orks int eh future (be it snotling to a god damn nob). Let's say we think that ghazkhull sudenly gets bored with the IoM and manages to create a waaagh of even bigger proportions than what he did on armageddon... it would be interesting. The tyranids eat world to survive, so in an attrition war, the orks would win since they don,t eat everything on the world but jsut use the planets/space hulk to grow up and smash things. Tyrranids would end up lacking primary ressources if the orks manage to create a deadlock and would win after a while.


However, the hive fleet is not inteh galaxy, its out of it, so the bugs cana ttackf rom everywhere and so have the deepstrike kind of tactics avaible to them...

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Just remember, all these hive fleets, even the large ones and just tiny tentacles of the actualy Tyranid race that is slowly approaching the galaxy en mass. The purpose of these fleets is to fight different foes, use different tactics and learn. They don't need to win. The hive fleets are like termagants and warriors sent out by the real mass of Tyranids getting ever closer. When they finaly arrive, they will already know all they need.

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It's a rather moot discussion, since both Xenos thrive in war. Attrition is a non-issue for either side, so saying Orks/Nids outside the fight that jump in would somehow swing the favor is pointless. Orks are lookin' for a fight. The Hive Mind seeks and devours all biological life.

It'll be a massive stalemate unless something of bigger issue develops (like the Imperium getting involved, or a Warp Storm, or a Daemon Incursion).

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It's a moot point. If the orks would unite, they would surely be unstoppable. But that's not very likely to happen through a waaaghboss or other planning. But i image a very epic situation where a war between nids an orks, very alike the octanus one, grows ever bigger, attracting ever more orks and by chance you either have incredibly well fed tyranid fleet. Or you would get the most gigantic waaagh ever. Which surely would destroy itself after a while, but not before wreaking havoc in that part of the galaxy.

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The Grey Knights codex explicitly states that if the Imperium ever gathered all its force together and fought on one front that not a single faction in the galaxy would be able to contest it.

So at worst, the Ork 4e quote about them being unstoppable is simply overruled by newer canon. More logically, people should just stop being tools and realize that you can't take a one-liner from a codex seriously as word-of-god. All codex's are deliberately written to be biased in favor of the Codex's topical faction.

That being said, can we pretty please please stop bringing up the Ork codex quote in every topic?
   
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The nid codex with the story of this happening says IoM stands at the side wanting both sides to destroy each other, but they know that who ever emerges the victor will be the largest threat IoM has ever seen.

I agree that when more orks turn up to fight they will probally win but they do have to get to the surface first and the nids are amazing at void wars, so that could be where the war is won or lost.

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BlaxicanX wrote:The Grey Knights codex explicitly states that if the Imperium ever gathered all its force together and fought on one front that not a single faction in the galaxy would be able to contest it.

So at worst, the Ork 4e quote about them being unstoppable is simply overruled by newer canon. More logically, people should just stop being tools and realize that you can't take a one-liner from a codex seriously as word-of-god. All codex's are deliberately written to be biased in favor of the Codex's topical faction.

That being said, can we pretty please please stop bringing up the Ork codex quote in every topic?


The Ork Codex is still as official as the greyknight one until it is replaced.

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Hunterindarkness wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:The Grey Knights codex explicitly states that if the Imperium ever gathered all its force together and fought on one front that not a single faction in the galaxy would be able to contest it.

So at worst, the Ork 4e quote about them being unstoppable is simply overruled by newer canon. More logically, people should just stop being tools and realize that you can't take a one-liner from a codex seriously as word-of-god. All codex's are deliberately written to be biased in favor of the Codex's topical faction.

That being said, can we pretty please please stop bringing up the Ork codex quote in every topic?

The Ork Codex is still as official as the greyknight one until it is replaced.

That's the point. Since both statements cannot be true, "official" statements of such nature should be taken less literally.



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I am more inclined to believe the Ork statement as it matches the setting and history. The other comes off as IoM propaganda. Which was true at one point in history, when SM's were legion and the whole IoM was focused.


Those days are 10'000 years dead now.Orks have a better chance of uniting then humanity.

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Difficult question to answer really as it would probably end with most battles / wars being a stalemate, this with the fact both races are brilliant at meat grinders you probably just be just that a pure stalemate where no one can very win the actual war or kill the other one enough to end the other for good. Also in the Ork codex doesn't it say that the imperium set out a probe ages ago and no matter where they go in space they'll meet orks, with this in mind don't you think tyranids will know what orks are already and be adapt at killing them?

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Orks, despite what people think, Orks are very adaptable, the War of Dakka is the best example, the Orks keep losing to the Tau guns so they stop charging headlong into them and work their Mek Boy magic to create lots of Dakka and beat the Tau at their own game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
oldone wrote:with this in mind don't you think tyranids will know what orks are already and be adapt at killing them?

You never get adept at killing Orks since they are so unpredictable, just when you think you have them they decide to change things completely. You get used to fighting a green tide, beating them in hand to hand and suddenly you are forced to deal with tons of dakka, you just have the armour to protect yourself and the guns to outrange them and suddenly they outmaneuver your now slow troops and vehicles with speed freaks, you start ripping off armour to deal with their speed and suddenly they rush your lightly armoured soldiers with overwhelming numbers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/16 21:25:47


 
   
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I'm not going to choose a side here, as I really think either side could win. Their effective strengths are nearly identical.

I do have an issue with the way people talk about the whole 'biomass' thing, as though it makes tyranids some sort of perpetual motion machine, a "law of conservation of energy" defying perfect energy efficiency organism that loses nothing in a battle because they can just eat themselves.

When a tyranid is created, expends energy, dies, and a new one is created from the biomass, there has been a net loss is energy. Tyranids are no different from any other life form this way. Humans use plants to leech matter from the ground and store energy as usable calories; livestock to collect it, process it, and store it; and then consume it to utilize the "biomass". And when a human dies plants are again used to reclaim the "biomass" and use it again. Tyranids are special in that they have streamlined and "industrialized" this process, not in the fact that they do it.

Orks fall in the same category. A fungoid life form, they have also moved all processes into a single species. They use squigs and primitive ork fungoids to process the "biomass," and either feed on it or just grow new orks from it.

So if the Orks win a battle they utilize the biomass as new ork fungoids grow, if the Tyranids win they utilize it in their traditional way.

Really the main difference between the two is the difference between raiders and cities. The ork cycle is self perpetuating. An ork world will keep producing more orks until its star goes out. They sacrifice short term gains for long term ones.

Tyranids instead strip a planet bare. While this provides massive short term resource gains, they wont reap nearly as much out of the world total. And as with any raiding culture, they can only maintain their system by perpetuating the raiding cycle.

You see this same tradeoff in the individuals of each species. Orks benefit from experience and growth, tyranids just produce what they want.

If we assumed both forces were even it would all come down to how the initial battles turn out. If the Tyranids could win the initial battles and maintain momentum they would win, as the Orks could not match the Tyranids raiding economy. If the orks superior defensive ability and stability ever broke the Tyranids war momentum, they would lose, as they could not match the orks more stable economy.

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Hunterindarkness wrote:I am more inclined to believe the Ork statement as it matches the setting and history. The other comes off as IoM propaganda. Which was true at one point in history, when SM's were legion and the whole IoM was focused.


Those days are 10'000 years dead now.Orks have a better chance of uniting then humanity.


Even still... the Ork Empire fell millions of years ago.. not 10,000. All that is required to unite the entire Imperium is a way to bring back the Emperor which there are several theories as to how to do it, but nobody crazy enough to follow through with it. The Orks would need one hell of a Warboss to fully unite under the strains of an entire galaxy (mostly the Imperium) to connect every single stranded Ork colony / WAAAGH out there.

As for the OP, it would unquestionably be the Tyrannids who would win. There are literally hundreds of reasons I am dumbfounded we haven't seen been discussed.

Such as:

Spoiler:
The Orks would need to scientifically discover a way to sterilize the very planets they fought on (something they aren't particularly good at), or else the microscopic spores left behind by the Tyrannids would become parasites on the Orks, anything from burrowing tapeworms to Tryannid bacterial agents and toxins. Not only would the world itself revolt against them, it would infest the Ork race for centuries on the microscopic level and when these creatures enter the cerebral tissue of the Ork (who would be powerless to stop their slow advance through their bodies without advanced medicine, which they don't have) it would become a battle that the Hive Mind would end up winning because its effects are far stronger than the psychic link of the WAAGH. If that happened not only would the Tryannids gain control of many Orks simply because of brain bugs implanted in them separating them from the rest of Ork kind because the Hive Mind can smother it like warp energies with the Shadow of the Warp, they gain the abilities of Orks themselves - rapid spore based reproduction, the ability use technology, and apparently according to some people championing the Orks don't need any resources to survive, the ability to live without actually being alive. Can somebody please explain to me how a living creature can grow without in taking any type of fuel? I know Matt Ward didn't design the lore behind the original Orks, so there has to be a logical explanation to this conundrum. When you figure it out, consider that the Tyrannids are hands down the most efficient at doing the most basic, and yet hardest to sustain thing in the galaxy: Living.

Back on track, many people have been saying the Orks would adapt to fight the Tyrannids. True, but that's not the same as evolving, which occurs over centuries and involves hundreds if not thousands of adaptations. Not only this, the Tryannids can evolve much faster than any other known race in the galaxy, and if there's one that can do it even quicker, you can bet that'll change once the Tyrannids eat them. Which leads me to my next point, Orks can only Loot planets. Tyrannids consume them entirely. Any planet lost to the Green Tide only becomes a greater asset to the Great Devourer, but vs versa, any planet lost to the Tyrannids, is gone forever. Not only this, but the planets that are devoured give far more resources to the Tryannids and much faster than the Orks. Metals and stone all provide valuable minerals that are invaluable to the Tyrannids and are leeched, if not scoured clean along with the biomass of a fallen planet. It takes time to build, mine, refine, and then finally forge weapons and materials Orks would need to fight Tyrannids, because unlike every other force in the galaxy, the Tyrannids deny them of their greatest asset, the ability to Loot and continue the war effort, because they aren't particularly good at making their own weapons. I know someone is going to post the pic of a Mekboy riding a looted Carnefex, and apart form its virtual impossibility in the lore, the materials of the Ork's riding platform are in relatively short supply considering the other races (except for Chaos in the Eye of Terror) would either all be dead or consumed for this to happen. In short, the vast supplies of the galaxy favor the Tyrannids way more than they do the Orks. Therefore Tyrannids are far more adaptable than Orks are, and given the time constraints of pitting two enemies with virtually limitless power, it's going to be a very, very, very long war to sort out. Well beyond the time that it's going to take for the entire Tryrannid race evolving to become an aethema to the entire Ork race no matter what battlefield adaptation it can think of as it eventually runs out of things to Loot as the Tyrannids continue to destroy them and everything else.

Going back to the whole living thing I mentioned earlier. The Tyrannid race itself is geared towards the extinction of all other life. It is the dominant life form of the known universe even beyond the ambitious and formidable race that are the Orks. It achieves this by evolution, brutal efficiency, the permanent denial of others to gain resources, and even more importantly: unity of purpose. Orks strive for war. That's pretty much it. Even under one banner there will always be infighting, rivalries, brawls, and even civil wars to prove to each other their superiority. It's basically how one get's promoted to sergeant. You kill your sergeant. It's not efficient. It's not methodical. It may be effective in the 40k universe as it weeds the Ork race to be tough and strong, but against the Tyrannids it's suicide. Every available asset must be deployed at all times against the Tyrannid race or else they will steamroll over you, consume you, and then use your chummy bits to make more chummy bits, which in turn makes... yeah.

Though the Tryannids can be splintered momentarily from the Hive Mind, they will never fight against themselves as soon as a synapse creature regains it's link to the Hive Mind and is no longer feral. The Orks on the other hand would never be united long enough to fight a war that would last for millennia or more. It's just not going to happen under any circumstance, because Orks are Orks. They like killing. And if they're aren't killing Tyrannids, they're killing each other.


Alright, that's end of Portion 1. Here's the summary:

Argument portion 1, the Tyrannids win because they can evolve faster, are more united, vastly more efficient, and deny resources more effectively.

Argument portion 2 in case anyone wants to ask is: Time, Genetics, Biological Warfare, and Logistics.

I can go on...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
riplikash wrote:
Really the main difference between the two is the difference between raiders and cities. The ork cycle is self perpetuating. An ork world will keep producing more orks until its star goes out. They sacrifice short term gains for long term ones.

Tyranids instead strip a planet bare. While this provides massive short term resource gains, they wont reap nearly as much out of the world total. And as with any raiding culture, they can only maintain their system by perpetuating the raiding cycle.

You see this same tradeoff in the individuals of each species. Orks benefit from experience and growth, tyranids just produce what they want.

If we assumed both forces were even it would all come down to how the initial battles turn out. If the Tyranids could win the initial battles and maintain momentum they would win, as the Orks could not match the Tyranids raiding economy. If the orks superior defensive ability and stability ever broke the Tyranids war momentum, they would lose, as they could not match the orks more stable economy.


Interesting, I like this argument considering the Orks primarily loot things as their strategy for rearmament. I think it's more accurate to say that both sides are a raiding culture. One from a desire to survive, the Tyrannids, and the other to thrive, the Orks.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/05/16 22:48:07


 
   
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Sweet I love these discussions cause I learn so much new fluff and see things in different view points.

BlaxicanX wrote:The Grey Knights codex explicitly states that if the Imperium ever gathered all its force together and fought on one front that not a single faction in the galaxy would be able to contest it.

So at worst, the Ork 4e quote about them being unstoppable is simply overruled by newer canon. More logically, people should just stop being tools and realize that you can't take a one-liner from a codex seriously as word-of-god. All codex's are deliberately written to be biased in favor of the Codex's topical faction.

That being said, can we pretty please please stop bringing up the Ork codex quote in every topic?


First off Id just like to say that without the codexs we wouldnt have any fluff to come from. Second is that the Grey Knights new codex is indeed true but no less true than the ork codex, now then as you say that if the Iom did indeed unite that they could stand their own against any FACTION. Now them they could probibly beat Thraka or the Arch-arsonist of Charadon. That is true but as you yourself have stated The Iom can stand against any FACTION now then the last time I checked the orks where not a FACTION they are a race but not a FACTION so in the end this leaves the Grey Knights codex still true and the ork 'dex true at the same time so I beleive we all can continue using the 'dex as sources

also the huge war is The Octarius war check out lexicanum for more details as they are really good at that.!!!!!!!!!!orks for the win!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lol

orkz are da best!!!
 
   
 
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