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I thought this pertinent to the discussion, since something that always comes up is how many Tyranids are there.

There's a few theories on the current attacks, whether they're all thats left, whether they're the tip of the iceberg flooding in, and others. The 6th edition rulebook sheds some more light.

Page 215, box out 'The Hive Fleets', second paragraph.

"Unbeknownst to the Imperium, the threat is of an even greater magnitude, for the bulk of the Tyranids have not yet reached the Imperiums galaxy, their masses still strewn across the void'.

Seems GW confirmed the 'tip of the iceberg' theory, with most of the Tyranid race still coming.

Tyranids FTW

considering like the secound sentence in the main rulebook is their is only war then their can never be a winner to the great war, besides why would the orks want to win, then they couldnt fight em no more, yeah they would win but they wouldnt so they could keep fightin orks ftw

6th Edition says each Hive Fleet is a million Bio-Ships each with millions of Tyranids on board. And that the Hive Fleets encountered is just a splinter of the furthest tendril of the main fleet in the void.

Tyranid numbers put even Orks to shame.

The rest of the Nids better show up soon so their rules can start representing them as the threat they should be.

Eldarain wrote:The rest of the Nids better show up soon so their rules can start representing them as the threat they should be.

Agreed.

They get to use 10000 points in all scenarios?

Draigo would win, because thats just what he does.

Agreed about a nid update. Maybe they could just FAQ the book to say all destroyed nid units go back to reserve with a chance of respawning.

That would pretty much fix them

In a fight between orks and Tyranids, you can't forget that as it says in almost every Tyranid book, the Tyranids are an unfathomably huge organism and the hive fleets are simply forward scouts, like the fingers of the Hive Mind's massive body. The orks' best fight with the Tyranids, against the Ghorala swarm in the Octarius system, is a stalemate (which the Tyranids will most likely win) against a small tendril of one hive fleet. If you look at the map in the Tyranid codex, you'll see that it is one VERY small tendril. I think the real contest should be between the owners of the universe. Daemons Vs. Tyranids - Chaos gods Vs. Hive Mind.

It would depend. if the orks managed to get fortified on the majority of planets before the tyranid's came en masse then they would win, once orks are fortified in theres no moving them. but like people said on page 1, if the tyranids gather momentum they cant be stopped, each battle lost is biomass the tyranids can never regainn If the orks dont let em get a foothold on a single planet then the tyranids will crumble and will probably move on to find an easier galaxy as they will be unable to get any biomass whatsoever, Theres alot of them but they arent infinite. they also wont be able to adapt to fight orks, you need to compare the tyranids instant ability to fight orks that wont get any better to the orks ability to adapt to fighting a foe that will improve infinitely as they gain more experience and grow, an ork who manages to survive every battle will eventually grow bigger than anything the tyranids can throw at them that wont be a waste of biomass. I also belive that if you get enough orks on the planet the psychic waaagh that would be generated would couter and even block out the tyranid synapse, and without there unrivaled leadership abilities the tyranids would be annhialated. not only that but if the orks managed to put 2 and 2 together and work out how to beat the tyranids they would all go cybork and simply deny the tyranids the ability to adapt to them in the same method that the tyranids cant adapt to the necrons and run scared from em...

But at the end of the day it wont matter because if all the orks managed to unite then mankind would be long gone, as would the astronomican and thus the tyranids nightlight in the warp would be gone and they would no longer be able to find the galaxy...

even so, none of the above will matter when the necrons reseal the warp

Nazgren wrote:But at the end of the day it wont matter because if all the orks managed to unite then mankind would be long gone, as would the astronomican and thus the tyranids nightlight in the warp would be gone and they would no longer be able to find the galaxy...

Since when can they only find the galaxy because of the astronomican? The astronomican doesn't even reach the boundaries of the galaxy, so it didn't lure them to the galaxy in the first place. It's just that, since they're here, they might go check out the huge 'free buffet here' sign.

There was a bit of background that said that the Nids were being drawn to our Galaxy because of the Astonomicon. I can't remember where I read it unfortunately, but I'm pretty sure it is something recent!

It would be somewhat ironic if in protecting the Imperium, by making space travel through the warp possible, the Emperor is unknowingly planting the seeds of the eventual destruction of mankind.

Yori wrote:The ones not taking any part of this, unless the Tyrannids win, because then they will be even more numerous.

But I'll cast my vote on the orks, eventually they will figure that they have to kill the "big unz" first. Right?

Actually, the "kill the big ones" approach has failed the Imperium many times. Size does not always indicate whether not a Tyranid is a synapse creature. The Tyranid Warrior Primes are a good example of this.

Back on topic. I'm going to go against the Ork bandwagon. If it were only the Tyranids already in the galaxy, the Orks would win. But if it was every hive fleet and every Tyranid in those hive fleets, the Tyranids would probably win.

Remember, Ork spores are biomass, so the Tyranids would probably consume many Ork spores before they grew into anything.

DOOMBREAD wrote:

Yori wrote:The ones not taking any part of this, unless the Tyrannids win, because then they will be even more numerous.

But I'll cast my vote on the orks, eventually they will figure that they have to kill the "big unz" first. Right?

Actually, the "kill the big ones" approach has failed the Imperium many times. Size does not always indicate whether not a Tyranid is a synapse creature. The Tyranid Warrior Primes are a good example of this.

Back on topic. I'm going to go against the Ork bandwagon. If it were only the Tyranids already in the galaxy, the Orks would win. But if it was every hive fleet and every Tyranid in those hive fleets, the Tyranids would probably win.

Remember, Ork spores are biomass, so the Tyranids would probably consume many Ork spores before they grew into anything.

Exactly. the Tyranids could simply harvest Orks. They won't, but they could.


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Nazgren wrote:It would depend. if the orks managed to get fortified on the majority of planets before the tyranid's came en masse then they would win, once orks are fortified in theres no moving them. but like people said on page 1, if the tyranids gather momentum they cant be stopped, each battle lost is biomass the tyranids can never regainn If the orks dont let em get a foothold on a single planet then the tyranids will crumble and will probably move on to find an easier galaxy as they will be unable to get any biomass whatsoever, Theres alot of them but they arent infinite. they also wont be able to adapt to fight orks, you need to compare the tyranids instant ability to fight orks that wont get any better to the orks ability to adapt to fighting a foe that will improve infinitely as they gain more experience and grow, an ork who manages to survive every battle will eventually grow bigger than anything the tyranids can throw at them that wont be a waste of biomass. I also belive that if you get enough orks on the planet the psychic waaagh that would be generated would couter and even block out the tyranid synapse, and without there unrivaled leadership abilities the tyranids would be annhialated. not only that but if the orks managed to put 2 and 2 together and work out how to beat the tyranids they would all go cybork and simply deny the tyranids the ability to adapt to them in the same method that the tyranids cant adapt to the necrons and run scared from em...

But at the end of the day it wont matter because if all the orks managed to unite then mankind would be long gone, as would the astronomican and thus the tyranids nightlight in the warp would be gone and they would no longer be able to find the galaxy...

even so, none of the above will matter when the necrons reseal the warp

Orks are probably the worst fortifiers in the 40k fluff, while Tyranids are possibly the best assaulters. As for not adapting to orks, these guys can out-adapt the Tau. Their whole theme is being a super-predator that can adapt to anything and always win in the end. and if the orks can become bigger than the Tyranids by winning a lot of battles, then I'll count my lucky stars that I've never had the misfortune of playing against a Hierophant-sized Ghazkgull. And if the Waaagh is psychic, then it should be shut down by the hive mind's shadow in the warp before it can become any kind of threat to the synapse. Also, the Tyranids are attracted to the Milky way because of the insane turbulence in the warp, what with the Eye of Terror, Chaos gods being born, C'tan being released, warp rifts appearing daily, all combined with the astronomican. Finally, if (when) the Necrons seal the warp, the Tyranids will really take over, because they are one of the few races who don't use the warp at all.

Pacific wrote:There was a bit of background that said that the Nids were being drawn to our Galaxy because of the Astonomicon. I can't remember where I read it unfortunately, but I'm pretty sure it is something recent!

I know what fluff he's referring to, but that's not what it says. It says they are drawn to it - nothing more. This makes sense because psychic beacons are how Tyranid vanguards attract hive fleets to worlds. So the astronomican is basically a huge free meal sign to them.

It does NOT say it drew them to the galaxy, because it didn't. There's uncontradicted fluff that says the astronomican barely reaches the western fringe of the galaxy, and actually doesn't reach the eastern fringe. Since the Tyranids first attacked from the Eastern fringe, the astronomican attracting them to the actual galaxy can't have happened. Simply doesn't work with the established fluff of the astronomican. But as I said, established fluff does support them seeing it as a huge Tyranid vanguard.

So basically - it drew them to the galaxy? No, and that wasnt what was written in that fluff. Drawing them when they got in the galaxy? Absolutely.

Harriticus wrote:6th Edition says each Hive Fleet is a million Bio-Ships each with millions of Tyranids on board. And that the Hive Fleets encountered is just a splinter of the furthest tendril of the main fleet in the void.

Tyranid numbers put even Orks to shame.

I disagree. There are allot of Tyranids, no doubt, but I think people are underestimateing the size of Ork and Human forces due to the size of numbers involved. I don't see it as one sided "Tyranids eat all and win" as people think. Each Hive Fleet might contain a billion Tyranids, but a single hive planet has more people than that. Armageddon has 6 times that, Terra is in the hundreds of billions. Armageddon alone is probably large enough to out number the Tyranids in the galaxy at the moment (obviously not out fight, but I'm just trying to give people a handle on the numbers).

Whilst the Tyranids are a massive threat the numbers are not as overwhelming as people seem to think.

Hunchkrot wrote:
Orks are probably the worst fortifiers in the 40k fluff

oh really? looks like it worked for Octanus...

-Loki- wrote:

Pacific wrote:There was a bit of background that said that the Nids were being drawn to our Galaxy because of the Astonomicon. I can't remember where I read it unfortunately, but I'm pretty sure it is something recent!

I know what fluff he's referring to, but that's not what it says. It says they are drawn to it - nothing more. This makes sense because psychic beacons are how Tyranid vanguards attract hive fleets to worlds. So the astronomican is basically a huge free meal sign to them.

It does NOT say it drew them to the galaxy, because it didn't. There's uncontradicted fluff that says the astronomican barely reaches the western fringe of the galaxy, and actually doesn't reach the eastern fringe. Since the Tyranids first attacked from the Eastern fringe, the astronomican attracting them to the actual galaxy can't have happened. Simply doesn't work with the established fluff of the astronomican. But as I said, established fluff does support them seeing it as a huge Tyranid vanguard.

So basically - it drew them to the galaxy? No, and that wasnt what was written in that fluff. Drawing them when they got in the galaxy? Absolutely.

yeah, your right, current nid book page 28:
"Little do the high lords know that it is the Astronomican itself that lures the tyranids towards terra..."
Terra, but not the milky way

Here is an updated diagram of Hive Fleets Kraken, Behemoth and Leviathan at 998 M41.

This also includes the current body of Tyranids not yet encountered in red including other approaching Hive Fleets

You may laugh, but tha'ts the general idea it seems GW are trying to get across.

-Loki- wrote:You may laugh, but tha'ts the general idea it seems GW are trying to get across.

I know, as a Tyranid player, it's cool isn't it

The tyranids cant out adapt the orks or they would have done it already. The orks are the most widespread race there is so that means that the tyranids fight the orks more then 30 percent of the time. If the tyranids could out adapt the orks they would have.

Nazgren wrote:

Hunchkrot wrote:
Orks are probably the worst fortifiers in the 40k fluff

oh really? looks like it worked for Octanus...

My mistake, I completely forgot that the orks of the octarius system easily repulsed Hive fleet Leviathan. What's that? Oh! you're totally right! the Tyranids are winning, and while it is taking time, they have already taken many worlds including the original Ghorala, Derragon, and Keltor. The ork warboss is dead. The orks are only still alive because there are simply too many to kill off quickly.

The imperials are amassing "Thousands of regiments and dozens of space marine chapters to combat the hive fleet. Several Eldar craftworlds have begun to burn worlds to a cinder, employing ancient weapons of destruction not used in milennia. The Tau are developing new technologies and weaponry to fight the Tyranids. So far these efforts are succeeding in slowing the hive fleet, but it is only a matter of time before Leviathan adapts."-Tyranid codex, page 31-The Ghorala Swarm.


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willhman wrote:The tyranids cant out adapt the orks or they would have done it already. The orks are the most widespread race there is so that means that the tyranids fight the orks more then 30 percent of the time. If the tyranids could out adapt the orks they would have.

You're right, because Orks are all the same size, equally smart, equally gifted, and use the same tactics.. Just like humans! Every Tyranid the orks have met has been killed. Just look at your precious Octarius war for proof on Tyranid adapting ability.

White dwarf also updated the Octarius fluff. The Swarmlord has killed several more aspiring Warbosses and the Tyranids have taken 2 or 3 of the planets continents. The Orks are fighting back better than any other race has, but are still being pushed back.

Orks win. It would take till the end of time but the orks would win.

Don't Tyranids cause all biomatter on a planet to go crazy? Don't they make plants grow huge so there is more to eat when the swarms land?

Orks are plants. The spores would florish in the hours before the swarm proper arrives.

The the orks would breed as needed. More tyranids? More orks!

Ork tek defies logic and physics. What if a Mek created a guargant that had a suppa shokk attack gun that sucked up the swarms frontlines and just hurled uneddible chaotic goo back at the big bugs?

Orks grow as they become more powerful. In a few years time satalite images would see biotitans and ork bosses thesize of cities headbutting one another!

And orks are excellent at sanitizing worlds. Burna boys ftw.

DeffDred wrote:Orks win. It would take till the end of time but the orks would win.

Don't Tyranids cause all biomatter on a planet to go crazy? Don't they make plants grow huge so there is more to eat when the swarms land?

Orks are plants. The spores would florish in the hours before the swarm proper arrives.

The the orks would breed as needed. More tyranids? More orks!

Ork tek defies logic and physics. What if a Mek created a guargant that had a suppa shokk attack gun that sucked up the swarms frontlines and just hurled uneddible chaotic goo back at the big bugs?

Orks grow as they become more powerful. In a few years time satalite images would see biotitans and ork bosses thesize of cities headbutting one another!

And orks are excellent at sanitizing worlds. Burna boys ftw.

Oh yeah? Well what if the Tyranids had a gun that sprayed anti-ork acid all over everything? what if they put glue on the orks feet so that they couldn't move? what if the Tyranids teamed up with the imperium and the Hive Mind and Emperor became great pals and played warhammer Fantasy on the weekend?

Seriously though, your argument has a few too many "what ifs". I might even venture to say that not one sentence of that post is even partially valid. Also, spores are a fungus thing.

Honestly IMHO its hard to say. Remember the bigger the fight the more orks are drawn to the scrap, like (green) moths to candle flame. If the Octarius war gets big enough, orks from here to Armageddon will come running as fast as they can. Even then though I don't know if they'll win (and I'm an ork fanboi I cannot lie).

As to the whole tip of the iceberg thing, I'd rather leave that out, just because all factions have that card, its GW's way of making everything whoa, grimdark!

If the orks ever unite ----!!!!
If the main tyranid fleets ever show up -----!!!!!
If the ancient necron empire ever fully awakens ---!!!!
If chaos demons, CSM and LatD ever unite (again) ----- !!!!!
If the Tau, oh wait never mind

rabidaskal wrote:As to the whole tip of the iceberg thing, I'd rather leave that out, just because all factions have that card, its GW's way of making everything whoa, grimdark!

That's cool, we'll ignore that fluff. Since "more Orks turn up the bigger a fight gets" is pretty much the Ork equivalent, we'll ignore that too.

Anyone got some other fluff they want to ignore to make their argument actually work?

Steve steveson wrote:

Harriticus wrote:6th Edition says each Hive Fleet is a million Bio-Ships each with millions of Tyranids on board. And that the Hive Fleets encountered is just a splinter of the furthest tendril of the main fleet in the void.

Tyranid numbers put even Orks to shame.

I disagree. There are allot of Tyranids, no doubt, but I think people are underestimateing the size of Ork and Human forces due to the size of numbers involved. I don't see it as one sided "Tyranids eat all and win" as people think. Each Hive Fleet might contain a billion Tyranids, but a single hive planet has more people than that. Armageddon has 6 times that, Terra is in the hundreds of billions. Armageddon alone is probably large enough to out number the Tyranids in the galaxy at the moment (obviously not out fight, but I'm just trying to give people a handle on the numbers).

Whilst the Tyranids are a massive threat the numbers are not as overwhelming as people seem to think.

Actually you are mistaken here. We do have numbers to work with.

The Hive Worlds of the Imperium are classed as having upper limit population of 500 billion (3rd edition 40K rulebook, p. 114). The 5th edition rulebook on p. 115 estimates there to be 3.238 * 10^4 or 32,380 hive worlds in the Imperium. If all 1,000,000 worlds of the Imperium were hive worlds with 500 billion people that is 5 * 10^17. That is an UPPER limit for the Imperium's population because we know that not all worlds are maximum population hive worlds.

Minea from that page in the 5th edition rulebook is described as a typical example of a hive world, and it has 154 billion population, well under the 500 billion maximum. Assume we are still generous and give all hive worlds a population of 250 billion to account for less populated worlds elsewhere in the Imperium. 32,380 hive worlds of 250 billion population each is 8.095 * 10^15.

As for the Tyranids:

A billion times a billion Tyranids stand at the rim of the galaxy yet each one is no more than a single cell in the living body of the hive mind, the devourer of worlds. (2nd edition Tyranid Codex, p. 4)

That quote is post Behemoth and post Kraken, so even after 2 Hive fleets there are still 10^18, which is greater than the most optimistic estimate of the upper limit of the Imperium's population.

-Loki- wrote:

rabidaskal wrote:As to the whole tip of the iceberg thing, I'd rather leave that out, just because all factions have that card, its GW's way of making everything whoa, grimdark!

That's cool, we'll ignore that fluff. Since "more Orks turn up the bigger a fight gets" is pretty much the Ork equivalent, we'll ignore that too.

Anyone got some other fluff they want to ignore to make their argument actually work?

If we don't ignore that fluff, then yes the tyranids auto-win. Is that what you wanted to hear? Its correct but makes very boring discussion.

And the orks have no equivalent because even vs the tyranids current in the galaxy, the "tip of the iceberg", I don't know if they can win. Ergo much less so against the rest of the iceberg.