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I can tell you right now, MSU Purifier Spam has lost a lot of power. The 5 man units are a lot more vulnerable in 6th.
1 - Overwatch
2 - Can't assault after disembarking a tranport that didn't move.
3 - If your transport is destroyed in the enemy turn, you can't assault during your next turn.

I am not going to run it anymore. I am looking at Terminators for troops now.

Actually I still like my purifiers and I've had some good experiments with them especially with a guard based allies build.

It's still a very shooty build but more than anything I use them as a counter attacking force. Also, since crowe steals their ride most of the time, I'm used to dismounted troops. With halberds still at I6 and cleansing flame, it's not all bad if people charge me since I still get to overwatch them back. Also if keep squads close by to eachother, they can still support eachother pretty easily.

Overall, I still find them cheaper than a strike squad after all the upgrades get put in. Terminators as troops has been kind of disappointing so far in the 2 games I've had with them. Tried a LRR as a delivery vehicle (thinking crusader is going to be the way to go now instead), and a Storm raven in another. I think it was probably because people made such a big deal about terminators that they ate just about everything the opposite army had to throw from shooting at them. They took down some MSU marine squad (other game ate some dark eldar 5 man warrior squad) and then got left in the open too easily to get shot down badly by volume of fire.

5 terminators really need something big to blob in or the return fire is still going to burn them badly. Also had the other mistake of making them too death-star-ish with techmarine with rad +psycho nades + additional hammer hand in there. Need to find a good balance where they might not wipe out a 5 man squad too badly. (might also have to drop the halberds for more hammers and swords) It's still a work in progress atm though. I'm still a big fan of termy armor though, I got about 25 terminators I'll try in another game but I think I'll use them more dismounted than before.

Btw, servoskulls are quite alot more useful now have anyone noticed? (since terminators are alot more sturdy and threatening) Bad part is that vehicles drive alot faster so they smashed up a bit easier. If you got like 9 of them though it's easy to bait people with it. I call it the pac-man mentality.

sudojoe wrote:

I can tell you right now, MSU Purifier Spam has lost a lot of power. The 5 man units are a lot more vulnerable in 6th.
1 - Overwatch
2 - Can't assault after disembarking a tranport that didn't move.
3 - If your transport is destroyed in the enemy turn, you can't assault during your next turn.

I am not going to run it anymore. I am looking at Terminators for troops now.

Actually I still like my purifiers and I've had some good experiments with them especially with a guard based allies build.

It's still a very shooty build but more than anything I use them as a counter attacking force. Also, since crowe steals their ride most of the time, I'm used to dismounted troops. With halberds still at I6 and cleansing flame, it's not all bad if people charge me since I still get to overwatch them back. Also if keep squads close by to eachother, they can still support eachother pretty easily.

Overall, I still find them cheaper than a strike squad after all the upgrades get put in. Terminators as troops has been kind of disappointing so far in the 2 games I've had with them. Tried a LRR as a delivery vehicle (thinking crusader is going to be the way to go now instead), and a Storm raven in another. I think it was probably because people made such a big deal about terminators that they ate just about everything the opposite army had to throw from shooting at them. They took down some MSU marine squad (other game ate some dark eldar 5 man warrior squad) and then got left in the open too easily to get shot down badly by volume of fire.

5 terminators really need something big to blob in or the return fire is still going to burn them badly. Also had the other mistake of making them too death-star-ish with techmarine with rad +psycho nades + additional hammer hand in there. Need to find a good balance where they might not wipe out a 5 man squad too badly. (might also have to drop the halberds for more hammers and swords) It's still a work in progress atm though. I'm still a big fan of termy armor though, I got about 25 terminators I'll try in another game but I think I'll use them more dismounted than before.

Btw, servoskulls are quite alot more useful now have anyone noticed? (since terminators are alot more sturdy and threatening) Bad part is that vehicles drive alot faster so they smashed up a bit easier. If you got like 9 of them though it's easy to bait people with it. I call it the pac-man mentality.

That's why I am thinking all Terminators. Specifically, at 2000, I am going to try a build running 25 termies (5 squads of 5), and a 5 man Paladin squad. I won't be running any heavy support at all.
I actually think it will be viable. You have a massive amount of Psycannon shots all over the board, increased resilency with 2+ saves, and lots of troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tuiman wrote:Any advise on stromravens, I tried using one but got targeted very early, and to me they are to expensive to take two (I normally play at 1500).

Also decided you never want to carry troops in them, as soon as you go to hover, you get shot out the sky to easy.

Stormravens are solid now with the flyer rules. Unless you are facing a bunch of anti air, they are likely to cause a lot of damage.
In my last game, I ran a pair of them (empty) with twin linked plasma cannons, one with hurricane bolters on the side.

If your opponent has any Psykers, they are especially ugly with Mindstrike missiles.

That's why I am thinking all Terminators. Specifically, at 2000, I am going to try a build running 25 termies (5 squads of 5), and a 5 man Paladin squad. I won't be running any heavy support at all.
I actually think it will be viable. You have a massive amount of Psycannon shots all over the board, increased resilency with 2+ saves, and lots of troops

just remember that they can be pretty darn slow. You may also need some faster choices in there or thinking of late reserves arrival via DS to grab objectives on the other side of the board? Sneaky interceptors have been doing well with terminators foot slogging.

I don't think having an all Terminator army with no Fast Moving elements is going to do very well in this edition. Most of the game types are objective based. When you have that many Terminators you become really slow. You are going to need something to either carry them around or something to at least stop your opponent from keeping their objectives. Stormravens could be useful since they can score in some of the game types.

Red Comet wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Darklight wrote:

Red Comet wrote:MSU Purifier Spam is dead, but I think 10 man Purifier Spam in Rhinos might still be viable. Its very hard to deal with 10 Purifiers especially when if they are in a Rhino and the Rhino moves 6 inches they can fire 8 Psycannon Shots out of the hatch. If it goes 12 they snap fire 8 shots. That's not bad at all. I think its just time to take another look at how the Purifier build will work now.

How are you doing that? A Rhino has 2 fire points, which means only 2 Psycannons can shoot. Since they count as moving, it would be 4 shots.

You can choose to fire them as heavy weapons, getting 8 snapshots.

Also I'm pretty sure if the vehicle goes 6 inches or less the models inside are counted as being stationary (essentially relentless) hence giving you all of those shots at full BS!

Also, Puragation Squads! 5 in a rhino with two psycannon is 180 points. Not bad...


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Red Comet wrote:I don't think having an all Terminator army with no Fast Moving elements is going to do very well in this edition. Most of the game types are objective based. When you have that many Terminators you become really slow. You are going to need something to either carry them around or something to at least stop your opponent from keeping their objectives. Stormravens could be useful since they can score in some of the game types.

Yeah, only being able to reserve half your force is a pain in the arse. You can work around it with a few solo paladins.

Red Comet wrote:I don't think having an all Terminator army with no Fast Moving elements is going to do very well in this edition. Most of the game types are objective based. When you have that many Terminators you become really slow. You are going to need something to either carry them around or something to at least stop your opponent from keeping their objectives. Stormravens could be useful since they can score in some of the game types.

I think it is going to depend on how far apart the objectives are spaced. In a lot of games, the objectives are clustered about 12" apart. If you can get that big wedge of Terminators placed up in there, it will be a tough nut to
move. It is slow though, but tough, and all the Terminators are scoring. I wouldn't want to face it with my Purifier MSU army.

I think it is going to depend on how far apart the objectives are spaced. In a lot of games, the objectives are clustered about 12" apart. If you can get that big wedge of Terminators placed up in there, it will be a tough nut to
move. It is slow though, but tough, and all the Terminators are scoring. I wouldn't want to face it with my Purifier MSU army.

with all the terminators people are planning to run, I think my purifier + guard hybrids with melta/plasma vets and las cannons are going to be doing pretty good

Kaldor wrote:

Also, Puragation Squads! 5 in a rhino with two psycannon is 180 points. Not bad...

Yeah, only being able to reserve half your force is a pain in the arse. You can work around it with a few solo paladins.

Purgation squads isn't a bad idea, but I don't see how they could be better than Dreadnoughts for us at the moment. We need that long range shooting to support us. Where else could we get it from besides from the Dreadnoughts?

How would a few solodins work around that? If you put some Terminators in a Stormraven I don't think it counts as being part of the 50% of the reserve since the Stormraven has to start there.

Darklight wrote:

Red Comet wrote:I don't think having an all Terminator army with no Fast Moving elements is going to do very well in this edition. Most of the game types are objective based. When you have that many Terminators you become really slow. You are going to need something to either carry them around or something to at least stop your opponent from keeping their objectives. Stormravens could be useful since they can score in some of the game types.

I think it is going to depend on how far apart the objectives are spaced. In a lot of games, the objectives are clustered about 12" apart. If you can get that big wedge of Terminators placed up in there, it will be a tough nut to
move. It is slow though, but tough, and all the Terminators are scoring. I wouldn't want to face it with my Purifier MSU army.

The same squad cannot hold multiple objectives. It would only hold one of those.
Purifiers are probably going to have a hard time in CC with terminators since the only AP2 weapon is Rending shots on the Psycannon and the Hammer, which is fine since we need to keep that 24 inch space between us and them while we fire our full salvo of Psycannon shots. Also pre-measuring makes this much easier.

I personally will be fielding at least 2 Purgation Squads inside Razorbacks (well, at least bought together). Utilize the TLLC as your shooting platform and keep the incinerators for counter assault. My list that I currently run will probably change to incorporate more Lazbacks as my primary anti-tank with henchmen support rather than Dreadnaughts. Of course lazbacks die just as fast as a dreadnaught due to 3 Hull Points, but you can spam them better as they are cheaper and I think weight of numbers (Henchmen) will keep them as a competitive option.

Coteaz

5x 10 Henchmen. 3x Crusaders, 2x Jokaero, 3x Plasma/Melta, 2x Stormbolters. All in TLLC razorbacks

2x Purgation squads. TLLC Razorbacks
Psyfleman

This is something I will be working on in the near future.

Lukus83 wrote:I personally will be fielding at least 2 Purgation Squads inside Razorbacks (well, at least bought together). Utilize the TLLC as your shooting platform and keep the incinerators for counter assault. My list that I currently run will probably change to incorporate more Lazbacks as my primary anti-tank with henchmen support rather than Dreadnaughts. Of course lazbacks die just as fast as a dreadnaught due to 3 Hull Points, but you can spam them better as they are cheaper and I think weight of numbers (Henchmen) will keep them as a competitive option.

Coteaz

5x 10 Henchmen. 3x Crusaders, 2x Jokaero, 3x Plasma/Melta, 2x Stormbolters. All in TLLC razorbacks

2x Purgation squads. TLLC Razorbacks
Psyfleman

This is something I will be working on in the near future.

What models are you using for your henchmen? The actual metals from the IG range, or something else?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Red Comet wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Also, Puragation Squads! 5 in a rhino with two psycannon is 180 points. Not bad...

Yeah, only being able to reserve half your force is a pain in the arse. You can work around it with a few solo paladins.

Purgation squads isn't a bad idea, but I don't see how they could be better than Dreadnoughts for us at the moment. We need that long range shooting to support us. Where else could we get it from besides from the Dreadnoughts?

How would a few solodins work around that? If you put some Terminators in a Stormraven I don't think it counts as being part of the 50% of the reserve since the Stormraven has to start there.

Darklight wrote:

Red Comet wrote:I don't think having an all Terminator army with no Fast Moving elements is going to do very well in this edition. Most of the game types are objective based. When you have that many Terminators you become really slow. You are going to need something to either carry them around or something to at least stop your opponent from keeping their objectives. Stormravens could be useful since they can score in some of the game types.

I think it is going to depend on how far apart the objectives are spaced. In a lot of games, the objectives are clustered about 12" apart. If you can get that big wedge of Terminators placed up in there, it will be a tough nut to
move. It is slow though, but tough, and all the Terminators are scoring. I wouldn't want to face it with my Purifier MSU army.

The same squad cannot hold multiple objectives. It would only hold one of those.
Purifiers are probably going to have a hard time in CC with terminators since the only AP2 weapon is Rending shots on the Psycannon and the Hammer, which is fine since we need to keep that 24 inch space between us and them while we fire our full salvo of Psycannon shots. Also pre-measuring makes this much easier.

One Terminator squad only needs to hold 1 objective. That's why there are 5 terminator squads in the list. Also, Purifiers aren't going to outshoot GK Terminators. The GK Terminators are relentless, so each Psycannon will shoot 4 times on the move. The return Psycannon fire from the Purifiers will be greatly reduced because of the Terminator armor. Once the Terminators move into assault; it's done.

I haven't actually got the Henchmen yet, but my plan was using some Elysian Models or DKoK from Forgeworld and converting them. Previously was borrowing a friends Catachans but I haven't seen him in a while so I will probably proxy until I find a build I'm happy with and then buy.

One Terminator squad only needs to hold 1 objective. That's why there are 5 terminator squads in the list. Also, Purifiers aren't going to outshoot GK Terminators. The GK Terminators are relentless, so each Psycannon will shoot 4 times on the move. The return Psycannon fire from the Purifiers will be greatly reduced because of the Terminator armor. Once the Terminators move into assault; it's done.

which is why I now perfer a mixed list with purifiers + mech vets. Long range shooting elements from guard. counter attack by purifiers. mid/long range AP2 via mech vets (plasma + LC) and melta vets still are effective. The IG HQ choice is also just another BS4 plasma/melta platform. What I am not as big a fan of is crowe as a warlord choice as I think I'm just too suicidial with the guy lol.

Well, just played my first game last night. GK versus Tau. 1000 points.

GKGM
10 Terminators, 2 hammers, 6 haliberds, 2 psycannons
10 Strikes, 2 psycannons, psybolt ammo
Psyfledread

We ended up with Hammer and Anvil/the Emperor's Will. I barely won out 4 victory points vs 3.

First Impressions:

Wow. Shooting is crazy! I kept having a very hard time keeping the models I wanted to take as wounds being the first ones to get hit. The wounds allocating to the closest guy combined with the modified cover and the Focus Fire rule makes model sniping much more viable. It's almost too much to keep track of.

Assaulting is also very strange in this edition. The 3d6 drop the highest for assaults through cover is harsh. I tried a bit too hard to get into melee with the squishy Tau, and on two different occasions couldn't make it while I would have even in the old edition. I feel like static gunlines and Land Raiders will both be very prevalent in the new edition. In fact, I found myself wishing I would have had 5 fewer Termies and taken a LR instead.

Red Comet wrote:Also I'm pretty sure if the vehicle goes 6 inches or less the models inside are counted as being stationary (essentially relentless) hence giving you all of those shots at full BS!

I don't have my book here at the moment but I could have sworn they count as moving.

daedalus wrote:Well, just played my first game last night. GK versus Tau. 1000 points.

GKGM
10 Terminators, 2 hammers, 6 haliberds, 2 psycannons
10 Strikes, 2 psycannons, psybolt ammo
Psyfledread

We ended up with Hammer and Anvil/the Emperor's Will. I barely won out 4 victory points vs 3.

First Impressions:

Wow. Shooting is crazy! I kept having a very hard time keeping the models I wanted to take as wounds being the first ones to get hit. The wounds allocating to the closest guy combined with the modified cover and the Focus Fire rule makes model sniping much more viable. It's almost too much to keep track of.

Assaulting is also very strange in this edition. The 3d6 drop the highest for assaults through cover is harsh. I tried a bit too hard to get into melee with the squishy Tau, and on two different occasions couldn't make it while I would have even in the old edition. I feel like static gunlines and Land Raiders will both be very prevalent in the new edition. In fact, I found myself wishing I would have had 5 fewer Termies and taken a LR instead.

When I played my first 6th game against Necrons, I was really wishing for a Phobos LR to sit in the back and snipe gak with lascannons. With the new glancing rules, that thing would be a terror to other vehicles, as 2 TLLCs will likely take hull points every round, if not worse. Paired with a Psyrifle dread, or hell, a couple psyrifle dreads; you have a pretty powerful shooting force at 48".

I could see that. Long range shooting is going to be a big deal I think; probably even bigger than it has been.

Sorry to shift the topic back to the ground, But i see now our Dreadknight fists are Dreadnought close combat weapons now. (but still have the unusual rule) So here is a question. Have the DCCW changed at all rule wise ? Do monstrus creatures still hit and act the same in CC? Do thier Hits on a vehicle still get 2d6 armor pen? (if these have all been answered already i do apologize.)

Only change for DCCW is that they also work for non-walkers (so S10 NDK).
Monstrous creatures have lost their 2D6 armor penetration and instead have gained ability to halve their attacks and double Strength (to max of 10).
Ignore armour saves has been changed to AP2.

One major change is that moving vehicles are lot easier to destroy now. They're considered WS1 (basically hit on 3+) if they moved so NDK, especially with Sword+DCCW combo.

Why the sword and DCCW combo? You can only use the rules for one or the other per assault not both..or have things changed and i haven't read that far in the Rulebook yet?

Arrathon wrote:Why the sword and DCCW combo? You can only use the rules for one or the other per assault not both..or have things changed and i haven't read that far in the Rulebook yet?

"A model with a Nemesis Greatsword re-rolls failed To Hit, To Wound and armour penetration rolls in close combat."
You're not technically required to actually use/wield it to benefit from its special rules. But it's not clear cut, you can easily use page 51 to argue that it doesn't work.
In that case, Sword is very rarely worth it's points.

Arrathon wrote:Why the sword and DCCW combo? You can only use the rules for one or the other per assault not both..or have things changed and i haven't read that far in the Rulebook yet?

Considering the cost of a DK with a teleporter and incinerator/sword, I'd personally take a godhammer instead any day with the way new shooting rules/hull points are working out.

Luide wrote:

Arrathon wrote:Why the sword and DCCW combo? You can only use the rules for one or the other per assault not both..or have things changed and i haven't read that far in the Rulebook yet?

"A model with a Nemesis Greatsword re-rolls failed To Hit, To Wound and armour penetration rolls in close combat."
You're not technically required to actually use/wield it to benefit from its special rules. But it's not clear cut, you can easily use page 51 to argue that it doesn't work.
In that case, Sword is very rarely worth it's points.

That really sounds like a TFG argument right there.

Because the sword says you get to re-roll all failed 'to hit', 'to wound', and 'penetration' rolls in close combat.

You are 'in close combat' if you are using your DCCW equally as much as if you are using the greatsword.

You guys are missing a very simple point. You cannot use the rules for two different close combat weapons in 1 assault. or is the fact he is a MC allows him to..in which case i will find a extra 25 points and put a sword+fist on him. But if that is not the case, then again..you Cannot use 2 different sets of rules for close combat. It's ether the DCCW x2 ap2 or the great swords re roll everything.

daedalus-templarius wrote:

Arrathon wrote:Why the sword and DCCW combo? You can only use the rules for one or the other per assault not both..or have things changed and i haven't read that far in the Rulebook yet?

Considering the cost of a DK with a teleporter and incinerator/sword, I'd personally take a godhammer instead any day with the way new shooting rules/hull points are working out.

But you could get 3 TLLC Razorbacks instead of the LR and still have points left over...

Joe Mama wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:

Arrathon wrote:Why the sword and DCCW combo? You can only use the rules for one or the other per assault not both..or have things changed and i haven't read that far in the Rulebook yet?

Considering the cost of a DK with a teleporter and incinerator/sword, I'd personally take a godhammer instead any day with the way new shooting rules/hull points are working out.

But you could get 3 TLLC Razorbacks instead of the LR and still have points left over...

'Dat armor 11!

I've been running mixed Purifiers and Terminators in my 6th edition lists. The Terminators are my counter for other 2+ save units and my Purifiers can handle anything else.

Dreadknight make himself annoying by running into lone squads and challanging their characters out. Or at least he will once he gets shipped.




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Arrathon wrote:You guys are missing a very simple point. You cannot use the rules for two different close combat weapons in 1 assault. or is the fact he is a MC allows him to..in which case i will find a extra 25 points and put a sword+fist on him. But if that is not the case, then again..you Cannot use 2 different sets of rules for close combat. It's ether the DCCW x2 ap2 or the great swords re roll everything.

The rules for the Great Sword don't say he needs to use it to get the rerolls. The rule is worded passively.

Again, How.. Here is exactly what it says for the great sword Word for word.


NEMESIS GREATSWORD
The colossal Nemesis greatswords are wielded only by Nemesis Dreadknights, for no grey Knight could hope to heft one unaided.
A Model with a Nemesis Greatsword re-rolls failed to hit,to wound and armor penetration rolls in close combat.

The rules for it are stated like every other rule in the nemesis section, So if i wanted to i could buy my GK terminator a halberd and a hammer, and strike at I6 but have the rules of a thunderhammer is what you guys are saying. I never argue on the internet about stuff, but this is just bonkers. And that is coming from a grey knight player. It says in the rule book flat out.. you cannot use two weapons abilities in one round. plain simple and to the point. I have the codex infront of me and there is nothing misleading me to think i can mix and match abilities. So once again..you cannot re roll hits wounds and armor pen's while getting the x2 ap2 abilities of the DCCW. NOW..if you are chosing to simply use the sword and get your re roll everything at the NDk strength of 6 sure fine and dadny, then maybe next round of combat he uses his fists..even i wouldnt bitch about that. but not both.

Added..I see what you guys are seeing, and i do understand where you are coming from. And until i see it as a faq or such i am standing by what i feel is correct. I might be wrong (god knows my wife reminds me how i am all the time lol) and missing out on this ability. But again i feel My view is correct.

I'm glad that you would play that way, and respect your right to that opinion. You are correct on one part, the Nemesis Greatsword does have the same 'Nemesis' rules as every other weapon on that page.

That said? it also has something else, something which lets you re-roll failed rolls in close combat.

To answer your question however: The Dreadknight does not have to 'use' the greatsword in close combat to benefit from it's rules. Why? because it doesn't say you have to, simple enough with a permissive rule-set right?

I'd like to draw your attention to the 'Master-Crafted Weapons' weapon profile a page further in the Grey Knight codex if you'd like to see how they'd write up a ability that only effects the weapon it is found on. You'll note that while mastercrafted weapons say that you can only re-roll a 'to-hit roll' while using that weapon, the Greatswords' ability does 'not' contain that wording nor restriction.

I find it interesting that if the exact printed ability to re-roll failed rolls in close combat was found on it's armor or another piece of wargear listed in the Dreadknight's profile, i doubt we'd even be having this debate.

I will leave it as we disagree and move on. We all have our own ways of playing and reading the rules.



Also..after reading over our little debate here..it is possible we are arguing over two different things. I do know the Greatsword gets re roll everything, that is true..Just not with the added ability of the DCCW of x2str and ap2 . If this is what you are saying then i guess we are on the same page of some sorts, in which case i point to again that We agree to disagree. it's not like we will be playing one another lol.

No i am literally saying that the Greatsword will allow you to re-roll failed rolls made in close combat even if you are using a Nemesis Dreadnought Close Combat weapon (and not the greatsword) to inflict those hits.

So yep, agreeing to disagree sounds fine to me, happy gaming. :-)