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Voodoo Boyz wrote:Do GK's now drop the Psyriflemen and load up on Flying Dreadknights?

Is it confirmed they get those snazzy 'Vector Strike' attacks? The DK isn't a winged MC. Also, they are still vulnerable to plasma, which may be taken in higher amounts now.

On the other hand they don't have to worry about power weapons in CC anymore, only fists and hammers. And supposedly they are MC Characters so they may be able to challenge other characters?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fetterkey wrote:

l0k1 wrote:I'd say melta/plasma Henchmen just got a lot more competitive. Paladins took a hit. We'll see how bad of a hit once we have all the official rules. Though Stormravens are now considered fliers so that helps their survivability. Dreads took a hit with the hull points stuff.

Henchmen are probably useless now that you can take real IG Veterans instead of fake ones via the Allies rules.

But then you have to take another HQ and whatnot. I still see henchmen being useful. Although I am puzzled why l0ki thinks melta henchmen got more competitive. Why? If glancing can more easily destroy vehicles why would short range melta be better?


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Joey wrote:

sudojoe wrote:I'm thinking some force swords will be pretty good actually since it gives everything a 5++ parry save that then gets buffed to a 4++. Even with facing AP3, your PAGKs (purifiers/ss/interceptors) will get a bit stronger defensively in CC. Somewhat of a net nothing for termies as they already have a 5++ > 4++ save.

I thought the 5++ parry was confirmed as being wrong?

No one in the 'rumor' thread has found it in the book, and several people in there obviously have the book.

Well DKs can move like JI if they get Teliporters. I don't see why they won't get a Vector Strike.

Grey Templar wrote:Well DKs can move like JI if they get Teliporters. I don't see why they won't get a Vector Strike.

I don't either, but I am unclear on the rule, and what a 'Flying' or 'Winged' MC includes. It should get that rule IMHO, even if the DK is more like jump infantry than anything...


I think it will be funny if DKs can challenge ICs though. Especially if the IC only has a power sword, that's 2+ saves for the DK. And unlike the Lone Wolf, which is also rumored to be able to challenge characters, the DK with a teleporter is mobile enough to make it happen.

Joey wrote:

sudojoe wrote:I'm thinking some force swords will be pretty good actually since it gives everything a 5++ parry save that then gets buffed to a 4++. Even with facing AP3, your PAGKs (purifiers/ss/interceptors) will get a bit stronger defensively in CC. Somewhat of a net nothing for termies as they already have a 5++ > 4++ save.

I thought the 5++ parry was confirmed as being wrong?

Yep, doesn't exist.

Logic is an illusion in the worlds that GW creates.

Fetterkey wrote:

Joey wrote:

sudojoe wrote:I'm thinking some force swords will be pretty good actually since it gives everything a 5++ parry save that then gets buffed to a 4++. Even with facing AP3, your PAGKs (purifiers/ss/interceptors) will get a bit stronger defensively in CC. Somewhat of a net nothing for termies as they already have a 5++ > 4++ save.

I thought the 5++ parry was confirmed as being wrong?

Yep, doesn't exist.

Which is really a shame as it would have made swords on PAGKs a useful option.

Grey Templar wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:

Joey wrote:

sudojoe wrote:I'm thinking some force swords will be pretty good actually since it gives everything a 5++ parry save that then gets buffed to a 4++. Even with facing AP3, your PAGKs (purifiers/ss/interceptors) will get a bit stronger defensively in CC. Somewhat of a net nothing for termies as they already have a 5++ > 4++ save.

I thought the 5++ parry was confirmed as being wrong?

Yep, doesn't exist.

Which is really a shame as it would have made swords on PAGKs a useful option.

On Strike Squads against a lot of things they are plenty useful!

@Joe Mama 2+ armor saves are going to become big. Terminators and stuff in artificer armor are going to be rough. Vehicles are going to be a bit softer but people are going to completely stop playing them. Plasma/Melta Henchmen may not be the dominant theme but they will become for more useful because of how cheap they are.

l0k1 wrote:@Joe Mama 2+ armor saves are going to become big. Terminators and stuff in artificer armor are going to be rough. Vehicles are going to be a bit softer but people are going to completely stop playing them. Plasma/Melta Henchmen may not be the dominant theme but they will become for more useful because of how cheap they are.

People aren't going to completely stop playing vehicles. And if they did, henchmen would be shot off the board in two seconds with their low toughness and armor saves if they had to footslog.

Therion wrote:It's hard to imagine how the Dreadknight flies though. It keeps teleporting upwards into the air before it falls and crashes on the ground and dies?

Have you ever seen dragon ball z? Teleport punch ftw!

I wonder what the power level of a teleporting dreadknight is...

Dok wrote:

Therion wrote:It's hard to imagine how the Dreadknight flies though. It keeps teleporting upwards into the air before it falls and crashes on the ground and dies?

Have you ever seen dragon ball z? Teleport punch ftw!

I wonder what the power level of a teleporting dreadknight is...

shoot, I'll take the bait.

"IT'S OVER 9000!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Joe Mama wrote:

l0k1 wrote:@Joe Mama 2+ armor saves are going to become big. Terminators and stuff in artificer armor are going to be rough. Vehicles are going to be a bit softer but people are going to completely stop playing them. Plasma/Melta Henchmen may not be the dominant theme but they will become for more useful because of how cheap they are.

People aren't going to completely stop playing vehicles. And if they did, henchmen would be shot off the board in two seconds with their low toughness and armor saves if they had to footslog.

Sorry about that, it was supposed to say people won't stop playing them lol

l0k1 wrote:

Joe Mama wrote:

l0k1 wrote:@Joe Mama 2+ armor saves are going to become big. Terminators and stuff in artificer armor are going to be rough. Vehicles are going to be a bit softer but people are going to completely stop playing them. Plasma/Melta Henchmen may not be the dominant theme but they will become for more useful because of how cheap they are.

People aren't going to completely stop playing vehicles. And if they did, henchmen would be shot off the board in two seconds with their low toughness and armor saves if they had to footslog.

Sorry about that, it was supposed to say people won't stop playing them lol

LOL. That makes a lot more sense then.

Joey wrote:

sudojoe wrote:I'm thinking some force swords will be pretty good actually since it gives everything a 5++ parry save that then gets buffed to a 4++. Even with facing AP3, your PAGKs (purifiers/ss/interceptors) will get a bit stronger defensively in CC. Somewhat of a net nothing for termies as they already have a 5++ > 4++ save.

I thought the 5++ parry was confirmed as being wrong?

yup its wrong, no 5++ from having a power weapon

I think GK were a bit unbalanced in 5th, and the book was written to be a strong competitive 6th ed book (but not as good as it was in 5th)

I see several possible things giving GK problems, and some things that will not give GK problems.

If Draigo is in front in a draigowing he's not vulnerable to volume of fire at tacks from rapid fire weapons due to his 2+ look out sir roll followed by his 2+ armor save. That part is fine. What's not fine is TH/SS termies will tear up paladins now that their I4 and I6 force weapons are AP3.

Deathwing will give severe problems to all GK builds.

Allied attachments consisting of an eldar farseer with runes of warding would ruin a GK army, and will be incredibly common unless GW nerfs runes of warding.

Pure paladin + psyfleman builds won't work against air if psyflemen don't get skyfire.

GK have no brothers in arms as allies.

GK still seem like a top tier codex, but in a really competitive environment like a tournament I think the % of players playing GK will drop in half.

Fafnir wrote:

acekevin8412 wrote:For the record, I think that halberds shouldn't have been lumped with axes. A halberd extends one's reach and let's you hit before, ie at a higher initiative than a normal opponent.

If we were to be perfectly realistic here, halberds would hit harder as well as faster. As far as medieval weaponry goes, halberds were just pretty badass.

Not quite. They hit harder and at a higher velocity, however, due to inertia and some other physical property that I cannot precisely describe related to the length of the radius in radial acceleration, halberds actually would not be "faster" in the sense that you would be able to put out more strikes.

They also have more reach.

But in my reading of medieval military tech, it seems to me that the strength of the halberd or poleaxe came from its Swiss army knife configuration that allowed it to have reach, which is useful as a cavalry deterrent, and its ability to crack open armor with the hammer/pickaxe end located opposite the axehead.

roughly a minute in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=pCIvsBI0SgI#t=75s

Given that initiative is a combination of speed, reaction time, combat instincts, I think that giving a halberd an initiative advantage is sensible enough. But likewise I think the descriptor "unwieldy" seems fairly accurate, so I think you'd end up somewhere in the middle, eh?

So guys, anyone have to rulebook and clarify how Halberds are being treated?

AP2 like axes or AP3 like swords?

Hopefully vector strike actually works for DKs, every time I've brought them I've thought they are a massive waste of points.

daedalus-templarius wrote:So guys, anyone have to rulebook and clarify how Halberds are being treated?

AP2 like axes or AP3 like swords?

Hopefully vector strike actually works for DKs, every time I've brought them I've thought they are a massive waste of points.

We can't know until a FAQ. Knowing GW, it could very easily go either way.

Fafnir wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:So guys, anyone have to rulebook and clarify how Halberds are being treated?

AP2 like axes or AP3 like swords?

Hopefully vector strike actually works for DKs, every time I've brought them I've thought they are a massive waste of points.

We can't know until a FAQ. Knowing GW, it could very easily go either way.

Well I guess that will be tomorrow, right?

Won't halberds basically be terrible against terminators if they aren't AP2? Hammernators are going to be even more of a nightmare than they are now!

Oh, and for the record, it looks like fists have the same 'unwieldy' rule that axes have. If that's the case, I suddenly no longer think that the Initiative bonus from halberds would apply, if they were axes. Since I'm reading the book page by page, I'll have to read the actual unwieldy rule itself. But right now, it's not looking good.

Therion wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Do GK's now drop the Psyriflemen and load up on Flying Dreadknights?

I thought about that. The idea of the always taken Psyriflemen getting replaced by anything is beautiful. Dreadknights cost a lot of points but they're better than before. It's hard to imagine how the Dreadknight flies though. It keeps teleporting upwards into the air before it falls and crashes on the ground and dies?

Now that I can see the rules, I see that Flying MC's are different than Jump MC's, very interesting. Even still, the dreads die much more easily now, and Psycannons once they're deployed up the field (Deep Striking) can put enough glances to kill vehicles I think, so maybe the best HS choice is now the Jumping Dread Knight, the heavy Psycannon is better against vehicles, it still gets a good set of saves, and is pretty insane in combat.

So follow up question - is GK's new best build basically GreyWing, lots of Terminators?

So, are Landraiders significantly weaker now with this hullpoints change? It seems like it...

Also, not a fan of how a lucky pen can still take out a landraider in one shot. If that wasn't the case, I wouldn't think they were THAT much weaker.

Make me sad since I really enjoy carting around paladins/terminators in my 4 landraiders.

Fafnir wrote:Oh, and for the record, it looks like fists have the same 'unwieldy' rule that axes have. If that's the case, I suddenly no longer think that the Initiative bonus from halberds would apply, if they were axes. Since I'm reading the book page by page, I'll have to read the actual unwieldy rule itself. But right now, it's not looking good.

Well, since Halberds would need an FAQ to be Axes anyway(because they are special force weapons) I can't imagine GW would make their Inititive boost useless. So they will end up either being as they are now OR they will be +1Str AP2 at I3(down to 1, +2 to I3)

Possibly.

As it reads now though, all attacks made with "unwieldy" weapons are made at I1.

Which Nemesis Halberds are not because they arn't technically axes, but rather are other force weapons as covered by the paragraph after the table(meaning they are AP3 and follow all their normal rules)

So since the UK is way ahead of us, think we will see the FAQs sometime tonight?

If GW were on the ball and didn't have a completely irrational phobia of the internet, yes.

Here's GreyWing at 1850, just for sillyness:

Libby with 3 Powers, 2 Servo Skulls
10 GK Terminators, 2 Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, 10 Hammers (Combat Squad)
10 GK Terminators, 2 Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, 10 Hammers (Combat Squad)
Dread Knight, Personal Teleporter, Heavy Psycannon
Dread Knight, Personal Teleporter, Heavy Psycannon
Dread Knight, Personal Teleporter, Heavy Psycannon

That makes a great set of allies too, or maybe I'm just looking for an excuse to convert me up some Dreadknights

Also, Draigowing will be more reslient then ever, so long as you can keep Draigo up front. With LOS, you can spread wounds around however you want without having to equip each Paladin differently, and with LOS, you can choose to have Draigo eat all the pesky S8+ weaponry fired at him, instead of being forced to have him take one and spread the others. FNP is considerably weaker (and I would argue not worth taking), but that's not enough to cripple the build.

Just keep Draigo up front, and Draigowing should still work fairly well.

Halberds are AP3, it says under the force weapon rules, at least from my understanding of how the following is worded:

"If a Force weapon has it's on unique close combat rules, treat it as an Ap3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and Characteristics presented in it's entry"