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I can all but garuntee they wil Eratta the Daemon Hammer to be AP2 and Halberds to be Axes in addition to their rules. Otherwise it completely breaks the GK army.

If they don't it means I'll need to bring vanilla terminators to the game just so I have an answer for 2+ saves.

I honestly doubt halberds will be axes. If they are, that's a substantial nerf to Purifiers and the like.

Grey Templar wrote:I can all but garuntee they wil Eratta the Daemon Hammer to be AP2 and Halberds to be Axes in addition to their rules. Otherwise it completely breaks the GK army.

If they don't it means I'll need to bring vanilla terminators to the game just so I have an answer for 2+ saves.

Im sorry but anyone who think that halberds will be AP2 and +2I is seriously deluding themselves.

Do GK's now drop the Psyriflemen and load up on Flying Dreadknights?

tedurur wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:I can all but garuntee they wil Eratta the Daemon Hammer to be AP2 and Halberds to be Axes in addition to their rules. Otherwise it completely breaks the GK army.

If they don't it means I'll need to bring vanilla terminators to the game just so I have an answer for 2+ saves.

Im sorry but anyone who think that halberds will be AP2 and +2I is seriously deluding themselves.

Or they're Mat Ward.

The hammers will be AP2, after all they are merely psychic thunder hammers. Swords, falchions and halberds will be AP3.

Basically this is being done so that no one can really deal with terminators (unless they can generate tons of wounds) until the terminators have had a chance to swing. It's part of making terminators good again.

Fetterkey wrote:Grey Knight force weapons fall under the "special force weapon" classification, so they're all AP3. Note that this means that Grey Knights have no method of dealing with 2+ saves, since their Nemesis Dæmonhammer is a special force weapon and therefore AP3. Hopefully, this will get an FAQ, but it could very well just be a new weakness for the Grey Knights.

Actually, the codex says they act like Thunderhammers from the rulebook. They'll be AP2.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Do GK's now drop the Psyriflemen and load up on Flying Dreadknights?

I thought about that. The idea of the always taken Psyriflemen getting replaced by anything is beautiful. Dreadknights cost a lot of points but they're better than before. It's hard to imagine how the Dreadknight flies though. It keeps teleporting upwards into the air before it falls and crashes on the ground and dies?

Fafnir wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:Grey Knight force weapons fall under the "special force weapon" classification, so they're all AP3. Note that this means that Grey Knights have no method of dealing with 2+ saves, since their Nemesis Dæmonhammer is a special force weapon and therefore AP3. Hopefully, this will get an FAQ, but it could very well just be a new weakness for the Grey Knights.

Actually, the codex says they act like Thunderhammers from the rulebook. They'll be AP2.

And the rulebook says all force weapons with special rules not described in the rulebook are AP3. It needs an FAQ.

I'd say melta/plasma Henchmen just got a lot more competitive. Paladins took a hit. We'll see how bad of a hit once we have all the official rules. Though Stormravens are now considered fliers so that helps their survivability. Dreads took a hit with the hull points stuff.

Fetterkey wrote:

Fafnir wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:Grey Knight force weapons fall under the "special force weapon" classification, so they're all AP3. Note that this means that Grey Knights have no method of dealing with 2+ saves, since their Nemesis Dæmonhammer is a special force weapon and therefore AP3. Hopefully, this will get an FAQ, but it could very well just be a new weakness for the Grey Knights.

Actually, the codex says they act like Thunderhammers from the rulebook. They'll be AP2.

And the rulebook says all force weapons with special rules not described in the rulebook are AP3. It needs an FAQ.

Specific>General will make the Hammers be AP2.

Halberds are what will need FAQing.

l0k1 wrote:I'd say melta/plasma Henchmen just got a lot more competitive. Paladins took a hit. We'll see how bad of a hit once we have all the official rules. Though Stormravens are now considered fliers so that helps their survivability. Dreads took a hit with the hull points stuff.

Henchmen are probably useless now that you can take real IG Veterans instead of fake ones via the Allies rules.

Fetterkey wrote:I honestly doubt halberds will be axes. If they are, that's a substantial nerf to Purifiers and the like.

Pleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleaseplease...

Fetterkey wrote:

l0k1 wrote:I'd say melta/plasma Henchmen just got a lot more competitive. Paladins took a hit. We'll see how bad of a hit once we have all the official rules. Though Stormravens are now considered fliers so that helps their survivability. Dreads took a hit with the hull points stuff.

Henchmen are probably useless now that you can take real IG Veterans instead of fake ones via the Allies rules.

They can't embark in transports, join units or have abilites used on them. Just saying....

acekevin8412 wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:

l0k1 wrote:I'd say melta/plasma Henchmen just got a lot more competitive. Paladins took a hit. We'll see how bad of a hit once we have all the official rules. Though Stormravens are now considered fliers so that helps their survivability. Dreads took a hit with the hull points stuff.

Henchmen are probably useless now that you can take real IG Veterans instead of fake ones via the Allies rules.

They can't embark in transports, join units or have abilites used on them. Just saying....

I'd take guard allies just to take a squadron of Hydras, and still take a units of vets, maybe heavy weapons teams for more cheap long range fire.

tedurur wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:I can all but garuntee they wil Eratta the Daemon Hammer to be AP2 and Halberds to be Axes in addition to their rules. Otherwise it completely breaks the GK army.

If they don't it means I'll need to bring vanilla terminators to the game just so I have an answer for 2+ saves.

Im sorry but anyone who think that halberds will be AP2 and +2I is seriously deluding themselves.

Whether they are +2I or not, the rulebook says that they (halberds) count as Force Axes, which means AP2 and +1S.

So let me get this straight. What other Force Halberds do you know of aside from Nemesis Force Halberds? Boy, you guys sure are reaching, ha. There is only one Force Halberd that I know of from any Codex, and that's Nemesis Force Halberds. Sure, the rulebook is -EXTREMELY- poorly written in this entry and it is grounds for confusion, but when I saw Halberds, I couldn't think of anything else. It's clearly clarifying GK weapons.

It really would be quite nice if that's the case.

Purifiers get a nerf (let's face it, they're currently one of, if not the best unit in the game, they need it), and GKT in general get a nice little buff against 2+ armour, making them the 'swiss armyknife' of heavy infantry, and Paladins with halberds will actually have a chance of being viable, since they will now possess the ability to knock out their biggest CC threat before it hits them, making those 2 wounds actually worth having.

Also, S6 Grey Knights just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

I don't see how going from I6 power weapons at S4 to I3 AP2 at S5 is going to be a nerf when the meta shifts to I1 for killing TEQs.

It'll be a nerf for purifiers, who don't reap the benefits of the increased survivability of a 2+ save, and thus really appreciate striking at I6.

It's all about context. Terminators now don't really care about being first in CC, but Purifiers really want it, because they don't have nearly as much to fall back on.

Both will perform equally against other terminators, but against everything that will be hitting at I4+, Purifiers take a significant hit.

The only things striking at initiative will be CCWs, which means Purifiers can fall back on their 3+ save.

Unless people actually get Power Swords.

Yes, but the thing is that based on the context of how the new weapons work, and the various threats that each unit faces, halberds functioning as axes has more and more pronounced benefits for terminators than it does for purifiers.

Go pick up the old Marine Librarians. They have a variety of weapons including swords, axes and staves.

If you have a model that looks like a halberd then it's an axe. You strike at initiative 1, gain +1 strength, and count as AP2.

If you have a "Nemesis" force halberd you have the rules from their rule book which gives you a +2 initiative bonus, you strike at base strength, and you count as AP3.

The only Grey Knight models who have generic force weapons are Inquisitors IIRC and they would have the sword/axe/stave option.

Fafnir wrote:Yes, but the thing is that based on the context of how the new weapons work, and the various threats that each unit faces, halberds functioning as axes has more and more pronounced benefits for terminators than it does for purifiers.

That may well be true, it still doesn't mean that Purifiers were nerfed. There just might be better options in the Codex now. The internal balance shifted. It could be that Terminators got buffed rather than Purifiers getting nerfed.

But we'd have to see how the meta plays out and basically how many Power Swords you're going to be dealing with. Because it's pretty obvious that a unit of GKSS would be a bigger problem for Halberdier Purifiers than it would be for a unit of Terminators. So now the question is are people going to buy Power Swords. If they aren't it's not really a problem for MEQs.

It also does make halberds a viable option for things that arn't Purifiers.

Previously, they were way too expensive for Strike and Interceptor squads to take. Now they will be worth the price tag.

Falchions still suck. PLEASE GW, rescind your damning FAQ.

I'm looking at my Purgation squads again. If mech won't be as prevalent (which certainly seems likely given the rules for Hull Points) I predict Incinerators will be the new black. Purgation squads and Interceptors get big benefits from the new rules regarding overwatch fire with these weapons. The Interceptors mobility also means you get to hit characters who may be hiding in the rear.

For the record, I think that halberds shouldn't have been lumped with axes. A halberd extends one's reach and let's you hit before, ie at a higher initiative than a normal opponent.

acekevin8412 wrote:For the record, I think that halberds shouldn't have been lumped with axes. A halberd extends one's reach and let's you hit before, ie at a higher initiative than a normal opponent.

If we were to be perfectly realistic here, halberds would hit harder as well as faster. As far as medieval weaponry goes, halberds were just pretty badass.

But they're POWER halberds....lol yeah I forgot that part, but no known weapon today increases its user's strength, at least known to me. Maybe if you're swinging it around it produces more force? I forgot what I learned about torque and what not from Physics.

Well, no weapon properly increases your strength, but it's the force of the blow that matters. You take a long rod, put a fairly heavy blade on the end, and swing that thing around and it'll hit like a truck. Likewise, halberds aren't particularly fast weapons (in fact, their size and awkward displacement of weight makes them somewhat unwieldy), but more than make up for it with their long reach.

I would imagine that a halberd would be dropped and exchanged for a sidearm once an enemy closed in enough.

I'm thinking some force swords will be pretty good actually since it gives everything a 5++ parry save that then gets buffed to a 4++. Even with facing AP3, your PAGKs (purifiers/ss/interceptors) will get a bit stronger defensively in CC. Somewhat of a net nothing for termies as they already have a 5++ > 4++ save.

sudojoe wrote:I'm thinking some force swords will be pretty good actually since it gives everything a 5++ parry save that then gets buffed to a 4++. Even with facing AP3, your PAGKs (purifiers/ss/interceptors) will get a bit stronger defensively in CC. Somewhat of a net nothing for termies as they already have a 5++ > 4++ save.

I thought the 5++ parry was confirmed as being wrong?