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I'll take any points drops for Necrons but they need a whole rework from the ground up since RP just doesn't work.

Elite marines rather than horde marines please. Rather than just point reductions, a simple change that would head marines in the right direction would be 5 man squads should be able to take 2 special weapons plus the sergeant. Something sisters and scions ridiculously can already do...

if EVERY space marine (loyalist, primaris, chaos, EVERY Space Marine ) got +1 wound, that would solve a lot of the marine issues ive seen

I think that the problem with Marines (and a lot of other troops) is that they are specifically designed to be middle of the road, jack of all trades units, because that’s the aesthetic of line infantry from the real world. Unfortunately in a competitive game setting, that makes them undesirable by default compared to more specialised units.

Ultimately, line infantry are never going to be the awesome, battle winning, must-take units that you want them to be, unless GW does something really radical, like mandate that 50% of your points have to be spent on troop choices. And they aren’t going to do that , because it would murder the flexibility of the game.

I'm not as doom and gloom on RP as everyone else, we just pay too much for it. It's a nice rule when it works, but we're paying out the arse for it.

GW seems to assume that rules like this will always go off. Same way GK pay for teleporting, even though half the army has to start on the board and they can't drop in till turn 2 now.

Honestly, there's a lot of units in the game which would benefit from paying for deep strike as an option instead of having it baked in to their base price.
In general, I'd rather see many units going up in cost so that we have more room to work in. Leave marines where they are and adjust everything up until marines are good.

IanVanCheese wrote:
I'm not as doom and gloom on RP as everyone else, we just pay too much for it. It's a nice rule when it works, but we're paying out the arse for it.

GW seems to assume that rules like this will always go off. Same way GK pay for teleporting, even though half the army has to start on the board and they can't drop in till turn 2 now.

Problem is it becomes less effective the bigger the game. 1k it's nice. 2k it's usefull only by luck. 3k might just as well not exist.

IanVanCheese wrote:
I'm not as doom and gloom on RP as everyone else, we just pay too much for it. It's a nice rule when it works, but we're paying out the arse for it.

GW seems to assume that rules like this will always go off. Same way GK pay for teleporting, even though half the army has to start on the board and they can't drop in till turn 2 now.

Or like Grey Knights pay ~20points more than Space Marines for their Dreadnoughts.

A ranged Dreadnought with Astral Aim is awesome... but the second one paying 20 points for a 12" Smite... ehhh not so much

tneva82 wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
I'm not as doom and gloom on RP as everyone else, we just pay too much for it. It's a nice rule when it works, but we're paying out the arse for it.

GW seems to assume that rules like this will always go off. Same way GK pay for teleporting, even though half the army has to start on the board and they can't drop in till turn 2 now.

Problem is it becomes less effective the bigger the game. 1k it's nice. 2k it's usefull only by luck. 3k might just as well not exist.

So with more targets it becomes less effective? Riiight.

 Xenomancers wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
I'm not as doom and gloom on RP as everyone else, we just pay too much for it. It's a nice rule when it works, but we're paying out the arse for it.

GW seems to assume that rules like this will always go off. Same way GK pay for teleporting, even though half the army has to start on the board and they can't drop in till turn 2 now.

Problem is it becomes less effective the bigger the game. 1k it's nice. 2k it's usefull only by luck. 3k might just as well not exist.

So with more targets it becomes less effective? Riiight.

No, the point is that in larger games, it's easier to focus fire on more units until they are dead and RP cannot be used at all.
As much as I hated when RP was basically FnP in 7E (because it's more fun for then to stand back up), it would be far more useful if it was like that in 8E

Alternatively, RP should be allowed to roll immediately if a unit is ever completely destroyed (only once per turn, of course)

-

 Jadenim wrote:
I think that the problem with Marines (and a lot of other troops) is that they are specifically designed to be middle of the road, jack of all trades units, because that’s the aesthetic of line infantry from the real world. Unfortunately in a competitive game setting, that makes them undesirable by default compared to more specialised units.

Ultimately, line infantry are never going to be the awesome, battle winning, must-take units that you want them to be, unless GW does something really radical, like mandate that 50% of your points have to be spent on troop choices. And they aren’t going to do that , because it would murder the flexibility of the game.

Well it's pretty obvious why it doesn't work. They pay too much for what they bring to the table. A unit that can shoot 1 unit and then charge another and at least hold it's own is actaully useful. A unit that does half the damage as a unit that costs the same amount then actually does more damage in combat even with a str 3 or ws 4+ and actually out survives because it has double the wounds. It's clear 1 is just better.

A tactical marine at 10 points still sucks. It will at least be capable of "holding it's own" which is what a generalist unit needs to do.

 Xenomancers wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
I'm not as doom and gloom on RP as everyone else, we just pay too much for it. It's a nice rule when it works, but we're paying out the arse for it.

GW seems to assume that rules like this will always go off. Same way GK pay for teleporting, even though half the army has to start on the board and they can't drop in till turn 2 now.

Problem is it becomes less effective the bigger the game. 1k it's nice. 2k it's usefull only by luck. 3k might just as well not exist.

So with more targets it becomes less effective? Riiight.

You realize right dead unit gets no roll? In 1k wiping out 20 warriors in turn might actually fail. In 2k that requires more bad luck. In 3k stupidity on opponents part.

Might be usefull in future to check rule in question before commenting if you don't know how it works

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Why would the loyalist land raider get that, but not the chaos one? That makes no sense.

No vehicles should be able to be locked into combat by any infantry, period.

Yup, 40k so desperately needs some kind of trampling and free strike rules a la Warmachine.

Try to lock a massive vehicle in melee? No feth you Grots! I'll just run you over. On the flipside we have a dedicated HTH unit that finally gets into melee and is still locked there next turn. The remaining troops simply walk away with zero penalty (yeah, like you were going to shoot with those 2 remaining FW, Orks, whatever...) and the rest of the army opens up on them. Units being safer in HTH was a viable tactic in previous editions and something like the free strike mechanic in WMH where if someone wishes to disengage the opponent gets to hit them on the way out can make the decision to do so a little riskier than it currently is.

tneva82 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
I'm not as doom and gloom on RP as everyone else, we just pay too much for it. It's a nice rule when it works, but we're paying out the arse for it.

GW seems to assume that rules like this will always go off. Same way GK pay for teleporting, even though half the army has to start on the board and they can't drop in till turn 2 now.

Problem is it becomes less effective the bigger the game. 1k it's nice. 2k it's usefull only by luck. 3k might just as well not exist.

So with more targets it becomes less effective? Riiight.

You realize right dead unit gets no roll? In 1k wiping out 20 warriors in turn might actually fail. In 2k that requires more bad luck. In 3k stupidity on opponents part.

Might be usefull in future to check rule in question before commenting if you don't know how it works

Basically this. RP would be fine as is, with a couple of buffs to it's support. The best suggestion I've seen is to change the wording on Reserection Orbs so they can activated at anytime. That way you could pop the orb midway through your opponents shooting phase to prevent a unit being wiped out. A 2/3CP stratagem to allow a dead unit to roll RP would also be grand (or you could tie this ability to Spyders, give them a reason to exist. But yeah, you can 'fix' RP without changing the rule itself.

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
I'm not as doom and gloom on RP as everyone else, we just pay too much for it. It's a nice rule when it works, but we're paying out the arse for it.

GW seems to assume that rules like this will always go off. Same way GK pay for teleporting, even though half the army has to start on the board and they can't drop in till turn 2 now.

Problem is it becomes less effective the bigger the game. 1k it's nice. 2k it's usefull only by luck. 3k might just as well not exist.

So with more targets it becomes less effective? Riiight.

No, the point is that in larger games, it's easier to focus fire on more units until they are dead and RP cannot be used at all.
As much as I hated when RP was basically FnP in 7E (because it's more fun for then to stand back up), it would be far more useful if it was like that in 8E

Alternatively, RP should be allowed to roll immediately if a unit is ever completely destroyed (only once per turn, of course)

-

Yeah then necrons would just be deathgaurd that shoots a lot better. That isn't a good solution ether. Points drops are the best solution. On things like warriors and immortals. They basically suffer from the exact same issues as space marines - they pay too much for stats that get ignored by lots of weapons - that means their stats should come with discounts.

On the issue of RP though. Lets just have a thought experiment.

Lets say a 2000 point army has just enough fire power to kill 1 big necron unit and deny it's RP. At 2500 points it doesn't have enough fire power to kill that big unit twice. So it's going to have residual firepower going into a unit without destroying it. So you will get RP rolls there where you wouldn't at 2000k points. It's pretty easy to figure that more points = more oppertunity to get RP.

I'm just saying now along with a Wraithknight needing a HELL of a point decrease, I believe the starcannon is the exact same as an Avenger Gatling Cannon but is 2D6 instead of straight 12.

I wanted a Wraithknight, I'm new to Eldar completely but I feel it's been punished heavily for editions I never even actively played and everyone's fine with it being awful now for no reason.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
I'm not as doom and gloom on RP as everyone else, we just pay too much for it. It's a nice rule when it works, but we're paying out the arse for it.

GW seems to assume that rules like this will always go off. Same way GK pay for teleporting, even though half the army has to start on the board and they can't drop in till turn 2 now.

Problem is it becomes less effective the bigger the game. 1k it's nice. 2k it's usefull only by luck. 3k might just as well not exist.

So with more targets it becomes less effective? Riiight.

No, the point is that in larger games, it's easier to focus fire on more units until they are dead and RP cannot be used at all.
As much as I hated when RP was basically FnP in 7E (because it's more fun for then to stand back up), it would be far more useful if it was like that in 8E

Alternatively, RP should be allowed to roll immediately if a unit is ever completely destroyed (only once per turn, of course)

-

Yeah then necrons would just be deathgaurd that shoots a lot better. That isn't a good solution ether. Points drops are the best solution. On things like warriors and immortals. They basically suffer from the exact same issues as space marines - they pay too much for stats that get ignored by lots of weapons - that means their stats should come with discounts.

On the issue of RP though. Lets just have a thought experiment.

Lets say a 2000 point army has just enough fire power to kill 1 big necron unit and deny it's RP. At 2500 points it doesn't have enough fire power to kill that big unit twice. So it's going to have residual firepower going into a unit without destroying it. So you will get RP rolls there where you wouldn't at 2000k points. It's pretty easy to figure that more points = more oppertunity to get RP.

You're massively underselling the lethality of 8th edition 40K and using convenient maths. Another thought experiment. Necrons at 2000pts, you can wipe out 4 units a turn. Move up to 2500 pts, you can wipe out 5 units a turn instead. No lost efficiency against RP.

IanVanCheese wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
I'm not as doom and gloom on RP as everyone else, we just pay too much for it. It's a nice rule when it works, but we're paying out the arse for it.

GW seems to assume that rules like this will always go off. Same way GK pay for teleporting, even though half the army has to start on the board and they can't drop in till turn 2 now.

Problem is it becomes less effective the bigger the game. 1k it's nice. 2k it's usefull only by luck. 3k might just as well not exist.

So with more targets it becomes less effective? Riiight.

No, the point is that in larger games, it's easier to focus fire on more units until they are dead and RP cannot be used at all.
As much as I hated when RP was basically FnP in 7E (because it's more fun for then to stand back up), it would be far more useful if it was like that in 8E

Alternatively, RP should be allowed to roll immediately if a unit is ever completely destroyed (only once per turn, of course)

-

Yeah then necrons would just be deathgaurd that shoots a lot better. That isn't a good solution ether. Points drops are the best solution. On things like warriors and immortals. They basically suffer from the exact same issues as space marines - they pay too much for stats that get ignored by lots of weapons - that means their stats should come with discounts.

On the issue of RP though. Lets just have a thought experiment.

Lets say a 2000 point army has just enough fire power to kill 1 big necron unit and deny it's RP. At 2500 points it doesn't have enough fire power to kill that big unit twice. So it's going to have residual firepower going into a unit without destroying it. So you will get RP rolls there where you wouldn't at 2000k points. It's pretty easy to figure that more points = more oppertunity to get RP.

You're massively underselling the lethality of 8th edition 40K and using convenient maths. Another thought experiment. Necrons at 2000pts, you can wipe out 4 units a turn. Move up to 2500 pts, you can wipe out 5 units a turn instead. No lost efficiency against RP.

Fair enough, but if that's the case you're just saying that RP has no effect at any points value. That's not the case.

I haven't played many games vs necrons, because tbh not many people use them. When I did, a big unit of flayed ones wouldn't quite die (there were 1-2 left), then all of them came back. It was a very frustrating game! RP should have a mechanism where it's pretty reliable throughout - not this binary thing (however appropriate that may be) where either all of them come back or none do.

The system in ~4th edition was that necrons that came back could join other units of the same type. So if a whole unit died then they'd get up again in the next one over. You had to mark each dead necron and it could only get up if there was something within 6" of that model - which was a hassle as you had a lot of dead models lying around the place and generally getting in the way.

Ugg, we're in the rumor doldrums. I need more!

I have to agree, anyone who plays necrons knows that you just focus fire each unit down and that’s easier to do the more points you get.

At 1000 PTs necrons are a hard force. Once you get into 1500 or more you’re basically ignoring RP but they’re still paying for it.

Point drops are the only real answer because most games are played in the 1000-2000 range.

If you just give them FNP then they lose their flavor and if you give them an enhanced version of what they already have it’s hard to balance them

Mandragola wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
I'm not as doom and gloom on RP as everyone else, we just pay too much for it. It's a nice rule when it works, but we're paying out the arse for it.

GW seems to assume that rules like this will always go off. Same way GK pay for teleporting, even though half the army has to start on the board and they can't drop in till turn 2 now.

Problem is it becomes less effective the bigger the game. 1k it's nice. 2k it's usefull only by luck. 3k might just as well not exist.

So with more targets it becomes less effective? Riiight.

No, the point is that in larger games, it's easier to focus fire on more units until they are dead and RP cannot be used at all.
As much as I hated when RP was basically FnP in 7E (because it's more fun for then to stand back up), it would be far more useful if it was like that in 8E

Alternatively, RP should be allowed to roll immediately if a unit is ever completely destroyed (only once per turn, of course)

-

Yeah then necrons would just be deathgaurd that shoots a lot better. That isn't a good solution ether. Points drops are the best solution. On things like warriors and immortals. They basically suffer from the exact same issues as space marines - they pay too much for stats that get ignored by lots of weapons - that means their stats should come with discounts.

On the issue of RP though. Lets just have a thought experiment.

Lets say a 2000 point army has just enough fire power to kill 1 big necron unit and deny it's RP. At 2500 points it doesn't have enough fire power to kill that big unit twice. So it's going to have residual firepower going into a unit without destroying it. So you will get RP rolls there where you wouldn't at 2000k points. It's pretty easy to figure that more points = more oppertunity to get RP.

You're massively underselling the lethality of 8th edition 40K and using convenient maths. Another thought experiment. Necrons at 2000pts, you can wipe out 4 units a turn. Move up to 2500 pts, you can wipe out 5 units a turn instead. No lost efficiency against RP.

Fair enough, but if that's the case you're just saying that RP has no effect at any points value. That's not the case.

I haven't played many games vs necrons, because tbh not many people use them. When I did, a big unit of flayed ones wouldn't quite die (there were 1-2 left), then all of them came back. It was a very frustrating game! RP should have a mechanism where it's pretty reliable throughout - not this binary thing (however appropriate that may be) where either all of them come back or none do.

The system in ~4th edition was that necrons that came back could join other units of the same type. So if a whole unit died then they'd get up again in the next one over. You had to mark each dead necron and it could only get up if there was something within 6" of that model - which was a hassle as you had a lot of dead models lying around the place and generally getting in the way.

The reality is somewhere between my maths and yours, just getting the point across. It can pay off in a big way, but it's hugely unreliable. Also RP is amazing at lower point games because less firepower to concentrate and it's easier to hide behind cover to further reduce the odds of being focused down.

The 4th edition idea is nice, but back then we had like 4 unit types.

I honestly think the solutions I posted above would 'fix' RP. The change to Res Orbs especially, as that would allow necron players to be active in its use, rather than just hoping units didn't get wiped, it would add a tactical layer for us. Not hopeful for anything that major in CA though, so pts drops will have to do for now.

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
I'm just saying now along with a Wraithknight needing a HELL of a point decrease, I believe the starcannon is the exact same as an Avenger Gatling Cannon but is 2D6 instead of straight 12.

I wanted a Wraithknight, I'm new to Eldar completely but I feel it's been punished heavily for editions I never even actively played and everyone's fine with it being awful now for no reason.

Oh it's hugely overcosted.

Compared to a gallant Sword and board WK is a travesty. That varient probably needs to go down 120-150 points get ws2+ and +1 attack. LOL.

The 2x D cannon version shouldn't be much more expensive and the sun cannon versions needs to be the most expensive but probably be around the cost of a knight warden.

Honestly I considered, Decurion stupidly breaking it aside, 7th edition reanimation to be the best portrayal so far. It kept the bookkeeping trivial, and was equal opportunity: A save on every wound treated horde, elite and character units equally rather than prior setups that favoured horde units or the current setup that doesn’t allow characters to benefit from reanimation at all unless they burn command points to try it once per character.

So, to recap the last 5 pages: No new leaks over the weekend?

I skimmed the pages, so correct me if I missed anything?

demontalons wrote:
I have to agree, anyone who plays necrons knows that you just focus fire each unit down and that’s easier to do the more points you get.

At 1000 PTs necrons are a hard force. Once you get into 1500 or more you’re basically ignoring RP but they’re still paying for it.

Point drops are the only real answer because most games are played in the 1000-2000 range.

If you just give them FNP then they lose their flavor and if you give them an enhanced version of what they already have it’s hard to balance them

Pfft they aren't even hard to kill at 1000.

IanVanCheese wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
I'm not as doom and gloom on RP as everyone else, we just pay too much for it. It's a nice rule when it works, but we're paying out the arse for it.

GW seems to assume that rules like this will always go off. Same way GK pay for teleporting, even though half the army has to start on the board and they can't drop in till turn 2 now.

Problem is it becomes less effective the bigger the game. 1k it's nice. 2k it's usefull only by luck. 3k might just as well not exist.

So with more targets it becomes less effective? Riiight.

No, the point is that in larger games, it's easier to focus fire on more units until they are dead and RP cannot be used at all.
As much as I hated when RP was basically FnP in 7E (because it's more fun for then to stand back up), it would be far more useful if it was like that in 8E

Alternatively, RP should be allowed to roll immediately if a unit is ever completely destroyed (only once per turn, of course)

-

Yeah then necrons would just be deathgaurd that shoots a lot better. That isn't a good solution ether. Points drops are the best solution. On things like warriors and immortals. They basically suffer from the exact same issues as space marines - they pay too much for stats that get ignored by lots of weapons - that means their stats should come with discounts.

On the issue of RP though. Lets just have a thought experiment.

Lets say a 2000 point army has just enough fire power to kill 1 big necron unit and deny it's RP. At 2500 points it doesn't have enough fire power to kill that big unit twice. So it's going to have residual firepower going into a unit without destroying it. So you will get RP rolls there where you wouldn't at 2000k points. It's pretty easy to figure that more points = more oppertunity to get RP.

You're massively underselling the lethality of 8th edition 40K and using convenient maths. Another thought experiment. Necrons at 2000pts, you can wipe out 4 units a turn. Move up to 2500 pts, you can wipe out 5 units a turn instead. No lost efficiency against RP.

Not really how it works.

If you are targeting 5 units with sufficient enough firepower to destroy them (more than you need) but there is maybe a 1 and 6 chance of failing. In which situation are you most likely to have a unit failed to be destroyed? In a situation with 3 units being targeted with a 1/6 chance of failing to be destroyed or with 5 units with a 1/6 chance of failing to be destroyed? Obviously - more chances is more likely to actually get RP. So increased points increases chances of RP getting use. It is common sense really.

 Xenomancers wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
I'm not as doom and gloom on RP as everyone else, we just pay too much for it. It's a nice rule when it works, but we're paying out the arse for it.

GW seems to assume that rules like this will always go off. Same way GK pay for teleporting, even though half the army has to start on the board and they can't drop in till turn 2 now.

Problem is it becomes less effective the bigger the game. 1k it's nice. 2k it's usefull only by luck. 3k might just as well not exist.

So with more targets it becomes less effective? Riiight.

No, the point is that in larger games, it's easier to focus fire on more units until they are dead and RP cannot be used at all.
As much as I hated when RP was basically FnP in 7E (because it's more fun for then to stand back up), it would be far more useful if it was like that in 8E

Alternatively, RP should be allowed to roll immediately if a unit is ever completely destroyed (only once per turn, of course)

-

Yeah then necrons would just be deathgaurd that shoots a lot better. That isn't a good solution ether. Points drops are the best solution. On things like warriors and immortals. They basically suffer from the exact same issues as space marines - they pay too much for stats that get ignored by lots of weapons - that means their stats should come with discounts.

On the issue of RP though. Lets just have a thought experiment.

Lets say a 2000 point army has just enough fire power to kill 1 big necron unit and deny it's RP. At 2500 points it doesn't have enough fire power to kill that big unit twice. So it's going to have residual firepower going into a unit without destroying it. So you will get RP rolls there where you wouldn't at 2000k points. It's pretty easy to figure that more points = more oppertunity to get RP.

You're massively underselling the lethality of 8th edition 40K and using convenient maths. Another thought experiment. Necrons at 2000pts, you can wipe out 4 units a turn. Move up to 2500 pts, you can wipe out 5 units a turn instead. No lost efficiency against RP.

Not really how it works.

If you are targeting 5 units with sufficient enough firepower to destroy them (more than you need) but there is maybe a 1 and 6 chance of failing. In which situation are you most likely to have a unit failed to be destroyed? In a situation with 3 units being targeted with a 1/6 chance of failing to be destroyed or with 5 units with a 1/6 chance of failing to be destroyed? Obviously - more chances is more likely to actually get RP. So increased points increases chances of RP getting use. It is common sense really.

OK cool, glad we have it sorted. RP is fine everyone, I expect to see Necrons crushing the tournament scene shortly.

RP is incredibly easy to negate. Sure, a few random shots might get wasted at the end on a unit you can't wipe out, but the priority targets will always get focused down and wiped out. You're trying to invent maths to prove something that 100% of necron players will tell you isn't true. RP is easier to negate at higher points levels.

 buddha wrote:
I'll take any points drops for Necrons but they need a whole rework from the ground up since RP just doesn't work.

This is how I feel about my Daemons, more or less.

Would love to think points will change it, but realistically they're waiting for another book unless I'm content playing nothing but troop choices.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Ugg, we're in the rumor doldrums. I need more!

Warhammer Community should really be giving us some previews!

The mob is getting restless and fighting itself!

Audustum wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Ugg, we're in the rumor doldrums. I need more!

Warhammer Community should really be giving us some previews!

The mob is getting restless and fighting itself!

Dakkadakka is rolling 1s for animosity.