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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Karol wrote:
... how much more females does there have to be in w40k?


Balance, like ideal win rates, would be "about 50% across all factions". Just look at the screaming when somebody tilts over 70% in those terms!
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Karol wrote:
okey, the thing is dudes like vikings, vampires, romans, knights etc. I have absolutly no idea what mass female buyers of GW would want. I have my doubts they would want vikings, but female or vampires, but female or knight but female. Because unlike SoB, that would be derivative.

It actually is that simple, Karol... Being shunted off into the miniature line for her is actually the thing female nerds do not like to see.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Catulle wrote:
Karol wrote:
... how much more females does there have to be in w40k?


Balance, like ideal win rates, would be "about 50% across all factions". Just look at the screaming when somebody tilts over 70% in those terms!


nah that is not how it works. people are interested in different things. you are not going to get a 50/50 split in interior design. My aunts daughters all do ballet, guess how many performers are men vs women. There is no 50/50 split. w40k is a game about war. I don't know why, but stuff like that don't seem to be interesting to the female buyer. I also don't know one should change it, without making the setting less interesting to the already existing fan group.

I do wrestling at school, we are a mixed school, no asks for the gymnast division to be 1 per 1, same way with wrestling. One year of us is more then the entire female classes group.

It actually is that simple, Karol... Being shunted off into the miniature line for her is actually the thing female nerds do not like to see.

I am trying to draw parallels from my school life, and those don't always translate well. But I do know that if you tell a female athlet that maybe she should just lower the handlebars or lenghten the run up, they vocally against it. Even when guys from the older classes train with girls trainers, they don't want to have shorter bouts or certain moves not performed. I assume that if someone is already interested in something, something like a and this thing is just for women could sound of an insulting.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Karol wrote:There is no 50/50 split.
There doesn't need to be. If there's women interested, and there are, why should they be pigeon-holed into certain factions?
w40k is a game about war. I don't know why, but stuff like that don't seem to be interesting to the female buyer.
Really? You speak for all women?
I also don't know one should change it, without making the setting less interesting to the already existing fan group.
Why is including women making things less interesting to existing fans? Why is their enjoyment predicated on a lack of women?

It actually is that simple, Karol... Being shunted off into the miniature line for her is actually the thing female nerds do not like to see.
I am trying to draw parallels from my school life, and those don't always translate well.
Yeah, because your school life isn't the same as the rest of the world.


They/them

 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Karol wrote:
Because there is probably some wierdo somewhere who has a specific font fetish.

I'm a Comic Sans fan myself.

yes, but how many and how do they work. There is no way in hell that pre robot necron were just humans with, something odd like a wierd skin colour or bone crest on top of their head.

A) Doesn't matter what genders Necrontyr society had, let people do what they want. B) Necrontyr were humanoids with intense and seemingly genetic super cancer.

they are made to be peak of super human warrior efficiency. it is not achivable with a woman. Same way a dude will never see as many shades of colours as a woman.

Spartans say hi. Don't apply modern understanding of science to SciFi, the Fi part is for Fiction.

okey, the thing is dudes like vikings, vampires, romans, knights etc. I have absolutly no idea what mass female buyers of GW would want. I have my doubts they would want vikings, but female or vampires, but female or knight but female. Because unlike SoB, that would be derivative.

Without going too far into this because *reasons*, different people like different things but generally people like to see themselves in the things they do when those things are based on humans. Currently, men/males can represent themselves well in 40k, women/females not so much. Overall 40k background has loads of precednent for more female-coded minis, GW just needs to capitalise better on it.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Yeah, because your school life isn't the same as the rest of the world.

In the nicest way possible, Karol has just confirmed they are a teenager and a lot of what they write now makes a lot more sense.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Gert wrote:
Karol wrote:
Because there is probably some wierdo somewhere who has a specific font fetish.

I'm a Comic Sans fan myself.


Best thing to come out of this thread so far

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Arachnofiend wrote:
Karol wrote:
okey, the thing is dudes like vikings, vampires, romans, knights etc. I have absolutly no idea what mass female buyers of GW would want. I have my doubts they would want vikings, but female or vampires, but female or knight but female. Because unlike SoB, that would be derivative.

It actually is that simple, Karol... Being shunted off into the miniature line for her is actually the thing female nerds do not like to see.


"MASS" female buyers of GW don't exist and pandering to such a fictional customer group only alienates the present community.
Besides female players of 40K make up less than 1% of that hobbyist population.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




A) Doesn't matter what genders Necrontyr society had, let people do what they want. B) Necrontyr were humanoids with intense and seemingly genetic super cancer.

Letting people do what they want is a very bad idea. There is a reason why some setting and some games are popular and others are not. Fiddle and change too much or make stuff free for all, and the setting will just die. There are example of fandoms that imploded after new creatores decided to go totaly off road with them.


Spartans say hi. Don't apply modern understanding of science to SciFi, the Fi part is for Fiction.

I am not following you here. What does the fact that spartan women trained has to do with anything? My older colleagues are used as training partners for some of out female team trainers. And they are rankers that took part in euro and world championships. If you make a warrior, then no matter how much science you put in to making them, there is no way for a female to end up being as strong as male. Even fiction has limits. Specially when the starter is human body.

Without going too far into this because *reasons*, different people like different things but generally people like to see themselves in the things they do when those things are based on humans. Currently, men/males can represent themselves well in 40k, women/females not so much. Overall 40k background has loads of precednent for more female-coded minis, GW just needs to capitalise better on it.

Okey, but starts to sound as if the supposed 50/50 split was to be done, to do it and not because people want it. There is difference between guys like vikings, let them play with a viking faction and we have to make half the vikings female, because of "reasons". By the way I absolutly no idea what those "reasons" could be. Plus am not really getting the represent the represent part. most of the factions, besides maybe IG, aren't really representing anyone, well maybe if someone is a contestent in mr Olympia or is Shaq sized. I am not even sure, what female players do want to play with. What if you make an all female guard regiment invest money in it, and then female buyers don't come ? Again I don't even know what a regular female could want out of w40k, most males aren't interested in it. Representation just for the sake of it, seems stupid, specially if it would mean changing of existing lore.

There doesn't need to be. If there's women interested, and there are, why should they be pigeon-holed into certain factions?

Well they shouldn't, but it is kind of a odd that, not even knowing if it works, existing lore is suppose to be changed just to have, I don't even know what. Retcons to have female custodes and marines ? There is already a ton of factions with females in them, why are the factions that are strictly without women suppose to be changed? It just makes no sense to me.

Really? You speak for all women?

I don't have to. They speak really well for themselfs. If women were interested in what w40k is, then they would be buying and playing the game in much larger numbers. I don't have to know the exact numbers to tell you that horse ridding schools have more female then male students. Doesn't mean there are no dudes there. But there is clear preference.

Why is including women making things less interesting to existing fans? Why is their enjoyment predicated on a lack of women?

Because making female custodes or female marines would require above Cawl primaris tier of changes to the lore? Space marines and custodes are something, there distinct traits they have, which then get even more specific when one goes down to specific chapters. Non of those include being a female.


Yeah, because your school life isn't the same as the rest of the world.

I find sports school or schools that prepare you to a specific type of work very transferable to real life. Specially when our older students already are being sent to real big events. And I really have my doubts that women who do sports are so drastically different from non sports doing ones, that the ones not doing sports would require and like the idea of being given a male modified product just for them.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Besides female players of 40K make up less than 1% of that hobbyist population.
That sounds a lot like "Not many of them like this, so why bother trying to bring them in?". I'm not saying that's what you meant, but that's what it sounds like.

I think there's something to be said about trying to reach out to different audience groups and demographics - I'm a firm believer in demographics personally - but at the same time I think that changing the core of what you have in order to attract a different demographic is the wrong way to go about doing things.

I mean, if Mattel decided that they wanted to court the young boy demographic with Barbie toys, so changed Barbie to be all about the military, with new jets and tanks... I don't think that would go over that well. That's an extreme example, but drastic change to court a different audience is never a good idea.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Karol wrote:
Letting people do what they want is a very bad idea. There is a reason why some setting and some games are popular and others are not. Fiddle and change too much or make stuff free for all, and the setting will just die. There are example of fandoms that imploded after new creatores decided to go totaly off road with them.

How does the gender of a sexless murder machine kill 40k?

I am not following you here. What does the fact that spartan women trained has to do with anything? My older colleagues are used as training partners for some of out female team trainers. And they are rankers that took part in euro and world championships. If you make a warrior, then no matter how much science you put in to making them, there is no way for a female to end up being as strong as male. Even fiction has limits. Specially when the starter is human body.

Sorry, I should have been more specific, Halo Spartans say hi! And no fiction doesn't have limits. It's fiction.


Okey, but starts to sound as if the supposed 50/50 split was to be done, to do it and not because people want it. There is difference between guys like vikings, let them play with a viking faction and we have to make half the vikings female, because of "reasons". By the way I absolutly no idea what those "reasons" could be. Plus am not really getting the represent the represent part. most of the factions, besides maybe IG, aren't really representing anyone, well maybe if someone is a contestent in mr Olympia or is Shaq sized. I am not even sure, what female players do want to play with. What if you make an all female guard regiment invest money in it, and then female buyers don't come ? Again I don't even know what a regular female could want out of w40k, most males aren't interested in it. Representation just for the sake of it, seems stupid, specially if it would mean changing of existing lore.

Read the threads that have been done recently on this, I'm not getting into it here.

I find sports school or schools that prepare you to a specific type of work very transferable to real life. Specially when our older students already are being sent to real big events.

As an adult who has been in both secondary and higher education, I can tell you school is all about killing time until adult life where everything sucks. The only things I learned from school that were in any way applicable to real-life were basic comprehension of language and maths, everything else is optional.
Making a career out of athleticism is not an easy ride. You either make it or you don't, there is no middle ground where you show up sometimes and don't really work. It's a brutal industry to be in and one injury could end your entire career more so than any other job.

And I really have my doubts that women who do sports are so drastically different from non sports doing ones, that the ones not doing sports would require and like the idea of being given a male modified product just for them.

Gender roles are trash and shouldn't be enforced. Warhammer is not a "boys/men's hobby" by default, society influence is the reason for it being a men/male-dominated one. Taking away labels of who a hobby is for is the first step in making the hobby better.
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Gert wrote:
And no fiction doesn't have limits. It's fiction.


It does within the confines of the story.
Lord of the Rings is a work of fiction. Are there space ships in Lord of the Rings? Can Frodo morph into Godzilla?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/31 14:48:31


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Gert wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Yeah, because your school life isn't the same as the rest of the world.

In the nicest way possible, Karol has just confirmed they are a teenager and a lot of what they write now makes a lot more sense.
I am aware, but they do need reminding that the world is not always how they describe it.

Karol wrote:
A) Doesn't matter what genders Necrontyr society had, let people do what they want. B) Necrontyr were humanoids with intense and seemingly genetic super cancer.

Letting people do what they want is a very bad idea. There is a reason why some setting and some games are popular and others are not. Fiddle and change too much or make stuff free for all, and the setting will just die. There are example of fandoms that imploded after new creatores decided to go totaly off road with them.
And what has that got to do with Necrons canonically having women?


Spartans say hi. Don't apply modern understanding of science to SciFi, the Fi part is for Fiction.

I am not following you here. What does the fact that spartan women trained has to do with anything? My older colleagues are used as training partners for some of out female team trainers. And they are rankers that took part in euro and world championships. If you make a warrior, then no matter how much science you put in to making them, there is no way for a female to end up being as strong as male. Even fiction has limits. Specially when the starter is human body.
Gert is referring, I believe, to Spartans from the Halo franchise - as evidence that fictional super soldiers can be any gender, and would be just as competent.

It's fiction. They can be just as strong.

There is difference between guys like vikings, let them play with a viking faction and we have to make half the vikings female, because of "reasons". By the way I absolutly no idea what those "reasons" could be.
Those reasons being that women like Vikings too? I thought that was pretty obvious.
Plus am not really getting the represent the represent part. most of the factions, besides maybe IG, aren't really representing anyone, well maybe if someone is a contestent in mr Olympia or is Shaq sized.
Representation is not 100% analogous, for a start.
I am not even sure, what female players do want to play with.
The same breadth of options that the men have, I would guess - given how women are *people*.
What if you make an all female guard regiment invest money in it, and then female buyers don't come ?
All women guard regiments already exist. What we lack is the ability to make that with GW bits.
Again I don't even know what a regular female could want out of w40k
The same as men?? Women and non-binary folks interested in the hobby aren't that different from men, you know.

I'm really not sure where this whole "but how do we know what women would want!!" logic comes from - just treat them like *people*.
Representation just for the sake of it, seems stupid, specially if it would mean changing of existing lore.
Existing lore has been changing since 40k's inception.

There doesn't need to be. If there's women interested, and there are, why should they be pigeon-holed into certain factions?

Well they shouldn't, but it is kind of a odd that, not even knowing if it works, existing lore is suppose to be changed just to have, I don't even know what. Retcons to have female custodes and marines ? There is already a ton of factions with females in them, why are the factions that are strictly without women suppose to be changed? It just makes no sense to me.
Because those factions don't offer the same things that Astartes or Custodes do. If I squatted Grey Knights, and you complained, do you think I'd be justified in saying "you don't need Grey Knights, if you want psykers just play Thousand Sons or Eldar or Space Marines, they have psykers".

Really? You speak for all women?

I don't have to. They speak really well for themselfs.
In which case, you might want to listen to them, because whatever you're claiming isn't representative of women.
If women were interested in what w40k is, then they would be buying and playing the game in much larger numbers.
If men were interested in 40k, then all men would be playing the game.

Also, what a way to ignore the presence of existing women in the hobby.
I don't have to know the exact numbers to tell you that horse ridding schools have more female then male students. Doesn't mean there are no dudes there. But there is clear preference.
Preference born out of what? Biology? Innate urges to ride a horse? Or societal pressures and expectations?

And, again - what about the women who *are* attracted to the hobby?

Why is including women making things less interesting to existing fans? Why is their enjoyment predicated on a lack of women?

Because making female custodes or female marines would require above Cawl primaris tier of changes to the lore? Space marines and custodes are something, there distinct traits they have, which then get even more specific when one goes down to specific chapters. Non of those include being a female.
And is being male a distinct trait? I don't believe it is.

Again - lore changes. There is no status quo.


Yeah, because your school life isn't the same as the rest of the world.

I find sports school or schools that prepare you to a specific type of work very transferable to real life.
In certain very specific aspects, yes. But not the gender-reductive stuff you're pulling out, nor a lot of the stuff I've seen you claim as world-wide facts and attitudes.

The world is bigger than that. Perhaps try to have an open mind about that, and see that your own experiences aren't the only ones out there.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:
Besides female players of 40K make up less than 1% of that hobbyist population.
That sounds a lot like "Not many of them like this, so why bother trying to bring them in?". I'm not saying that's what you meant, but that's what it sounds like.
Agreed. Saying how small a group it is, and why that's an excuse not to cater to them, is most likely a strong reason why that group is so small in the first place.

I think there's something to be said about trying to reach out to different audience groups and demographics - I'm a firm believer in demographics personally - but at the same time I think that changing the core of what you have in order to attract a different demographic is the wrong way to go about doing things.

I mean, if Mattel decided that they wanted to court the young boy demographic with Barbie toys, so changed Barbie to be all about the military, with new jets and tanks... I don't think that would go over that well. That's an extreme example, but drastic change to court a different audience is never a good idea.
Drastic change, sure, but has anything proposed here really been a drastic change?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Gert wrote:
And no fiction doesn't have limits. It's fiction.


It does within the confines of the story.
And what sets those confines? Can those confines be changed? Are those confines essential to have? Does the story only work with those confines?
Lord of the Rings is a work of fiction. Are there space ships in lord of the rings? Can Frodo morph into Godzilla?
Does the Lord of the Rings pride itself on being a setting for player freedoms and customisation, a sandbox for Your Dudes?

Would certain things being allowed harm the wider work of fiction?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/31 14:49:09



They/them

 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






 H.B.M.C. wrote:

I think there's something to be said about trying to reach out to different audience groups and demographics - I'm a firm believer in demographics personally - but at the same time I think that changing the core of what you have in order to attract a different demographic is the wrong way to go about doing things.

I mean, if Mattel decided that they wanted to court the young boy demographic with Barbie toys, so changed Barbie to be all about the military, with new jets and tanks... I don't think that would go over that well. That's an extreme example, but drastic change to court a different audience is never a good idea.

Demographics are all well and good but societal changes should also be considered. Look at G.I. Joe, for example, was a doll for boys (called an action figure because of societal pressures) that was based on real US military soldiers/pilots/sailors. However, post-Vietnam the brand changed to "The Adventures of G.I. Joe"/"Adventure Team" and focussed on a group that would have, well, adventures. It still had helicopters and jeeps but they weren't flat copies of real-world military vehicles. Then we come to the G.I. Joe we know and love today with all the laser guns, bright uniforms, punny names, and gimmicks. This G.I. Joe had male and female figures as well as many non-white figures as well. The core was still action figures but it wasn't limited to "for boys" or "for girls", at least not from my point of view at least.
GW doesn't need to make huge changes to 40k to make the range more representative, it just needs to flesh out what it already has then maybe add some more in places where ambiguity exists (which is all over the place).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
It does within the confines of the story.
Lord of the Rings is a work of fiction. Are there space ships in Lord of the Rings? Can Frodo morph into Godzilla?

Depends, when does the Transformers/LotR crossover come out?
You know the point I'm making there is no need to be pedantic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Innate urges to ride a horse?

Hold up, are people seriously saying that if they say a saddled horse, they wouldn't pick up a cowboy hat and ride off into the sunset?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/31 14:56:48


 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




How does the gender of a sexless murder machine kill 40k?

Well in sports schools you make sports people. aka the peak efficiency of humanity at a given sport. I know of not a single sport, where the males wouldn't get a better results then the females. If you want to look how it works in practics, YT has a nice video of female gymnasts reacting to male doing female reutins. Being a marine or custodes just makes you more roided out and more trained. A female custode or marine, if they were possible to be created, would be inferior to their male counter parts, and considering how hard and inefficient it is to make either of those, wasting the time on trying to make the female custode or marine would be like building a Ferrari and then giving it an engine from a Lada.

Sorry, I should have been more specific, Halo Spartans say hi! And no fiction doesn't have limits. It's fiction.

Ok, but that is a different setting. I know nothing about Halo, besides the fact it exists. See Xboxs require good internet connection that never breaks. That is not a thing here, outside for a few big cities. Can't comment how they make, what ever a female spartan is, work when I don't know the setting. And I really hope it isn't "magic".

Read the threads that have been done recently on this, I'm not getting into it here.

Didn't knew there were any. Even If there were and I missed, I don't think I would change my way of thinking. I mean a product has to be ment for someone, and it also has to be bought. Just because someone has an idea that a product will be for someone, doesn't make it automaticlly something the group wants to buy. Ton of stuff got remade in the last few years and most of it was very popular, and all it did was making the people that were old fans really angry. I don't think that w40k players should get more angry. It is healthy or helpful.

As an adult who has been in both secondary and higher education, I can tell you school is all about killing time until adult life where everything sucks. The only things I learned from school that were in any way applicable to real-life were basic comprehension of language and maths, everything else is optional.
Making a career out of athleticism is not an easy ride. You either make it or you don't, there is no middle ground where you show up sometimes and don't really work. It's a brutal industry to be in and one injury could end your entire career more so than any other job.

Well then I would like to inform you that sports schools are different. You don't have free time. We still have to do all the hours in normal curriculum that other people have to do, and on top of that we have training. We have training camps in summer and winter, we have have events. You are ranked, you can lose scholarship if you aren't good enough. It is important to have good results, because without it there are fewer sponsors. You have to deal with diet and supplements, and on top of that you have normal life. There is killing time, unless you have a sports family or your parents are politicians, and you know you will not be kicked out, unless a power change happens. All the time we spend training, prepings ourselfs etc is to make become ready to join a Sports University, and some people become sportsman, some become trainers and some people just die at 35+.


Gender roles are trash and shouldn't be enforced. Warhammer is not a "boys/men's hobby" by default, society influence is the reason for it being a men/male-dominated one. Taking away labels of who a hobby is for is the first step in making the hobby better.

I am not sure what this has to do with gender roles. If you pick an avarge person from a male and female class doing the same kind of sports, the males always have better results. There is no role in it, just simple biology. Again I have friend that do judo, they are 16-17 years old they train with the girls trainers, and we even asked our trainers why the trainers don't train with each other, and he just told us that it wouldn't make sense, because in the same weight class men would always win and not just by a bit, the risk of injury would be great. The female trainers pick the 16-17y old guys, because why they are weaker, they have more expirance and can train being more technical to win. Plus the other way around it is just the same, non of the female rankers want males joing their divisions. If that is somehow a gender role, then everything is based on them, and then getting ridden of them would collapse the entire sociaty.

I mean, if Mattel decided that they wanted to court the young boy demographic with Barbie toys, so changed Barbie to be all about the military, with new jets and tanks... I don't think that would go over that well. That's an extreme example, but drastic change to court a different audience is never a good idea.

Doen't they already cover the dude part of their audiance with their toy lines for boys? Like I remember being obssessed about cars they make. Had a ton of them till my mom gave them out, when we had to move out from my dad house.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Spoiler:
Karol wrote:
Well in sports schools you make sports people. aka the peak efficiency of humanity at a given sport. I know of not a single sport, where the males wouldn't get a better results then the females. If you want to look how it works in practics, YT has a nice video of female gymnasts reacting to male doing female reutins. Being a marine or custodes just makes you more roided out and more trained. A female custode or marine, if they were possible to be created, would be inferior to their male counter parts, and considering how hard and inefficient it is to make either of those, wasting the time on trying to make the female custode or marine would be like building a Ferrari and then giving it an engine from a Lada.

That didn't answer the question. Answer the question next time.

Spoiler:
Ok, but that is a different setting. I know nothing about Halo, besides the fact it exists. See Xboxs require good internet connection that never breaks. That is not a thing here, outside for a few big cities. Can't comment how they make, what ever a female spartan is, work when I don't know the setting. And I really hope it isn't "magic".

You said women/females couldn't be super-soldiers, almost every other major SciFi setting says otherwise.

Spoiler:
Well then I would like to inform you that sports schools are different. You don't have free time. We still have to do all the hours in normal curriculum that other people have to do, and on top of that we have training. We have training camps in summer and winter, we have have events. You are ranked, you can lose scholarship if you aren't good enough. It is important to have good results, because without it there are fewer sponsors. You have to deal with diet and supplements, and on top of that you have normal life. There is killing time, unless you have a sports family or your parents are politicians, and you know you will not be kicked out, unless a power change happens. All the time we spend training, prepings ourselfs etc is to make become ready to join a Sports University, and some people become sportsman, some become trainers and some people just die at 35+.

Not sure what the point here is considering I literally said that becoming an athlete is an all-or-nothing deal.


Spoiler:
I am not sure what this has to do with gender roles. If you pick an avarge person from a male and female class doing the same kind of sports, the males always have better results. There is no role in it, just simple biology. Again I have friend that do judo, they are 16-17 years old they train with the girls trainers, and we even asked our trainers why the trainers don't train with each other, and he just told us that it wouldn't make sense, because in the same weight class men would always win and not just by a bit, the risk of injury would be great. The female trainers pick the 16-17y old guys, because why they are weaker, they have more expirance and can train being more technical to win. Plus the other way around it is just the same, non of the female rankers want males joing their divisions. If that is somehow a gender role, then everything is based on them, and then getting ridden of them would collapse the entire sociaty.

You need to stop with the school analogies. You have a single point of reference that doesn't apply to life outside of that very specific point of reference. You do not need a biological trait to like Warhammer.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/31 15:22:00


 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Gert wrote:
And no fiction doesn't have limits. It's fiction.


It does within the confines of the story.
And what sets those confines? Can those confines be changed? Are those confines essential to have? Does the story only work with those confines?

The Author sets the confines to prevent the story devolving into an incoherent mess of half-baked ideas as well as being in accordance with the themes and concepts he wants explored. So yes, they are kind of essential.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Lord of the Rings is a work of fiction. Are there space ships in lord of the rings? Can Frodo morph into Godzilla?

Does the Lord of the Rings pride itself on being a setting for player freedoms and customisation, a sandbox for Your Dudes?

There is a provision for that, actually. It's called fan-fiction

Would certain things being allowed harm the wider work of fiction?

I don't know what you mean by "certain things", but I do know that if you treat fiction as meaningless and open to inconsistency and last-minute changes you're going to end up with a lot of badly written stories.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/07/31 15:40:33


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in pl
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And what has that got to do with Necrons canonically having women?

well necron aren't human. If say that necron males and females are just like metal humans, then I think a lot of their specific traits get lost. It is bigger version of lets say hollywood making a movie about eastern europe and not really understanding that Poles, Czechs, Slovaks etc are kind of not the same type of people. Making necrons just "metal humans" is IMO too diminishing. In w40k terms it would be like slaping boobs on a marine and saying presto, here is the female marine.


Gert is referring, I believe, to Spartans from the Halo franchise - as evidence that fictional super soldiers can be any gender, and would be just as competent.

It's fiction. They can be just as strong


Well to that degree yes. But then we are not entering the why. If it is they made it just because they could, and basic for it was still the human body. Then it really starts to sounds like an explanation that magic did it. It is bad lore and bad fiction. And there is already enough bad stuff with the cawl things, we really don't need more.

All women guard regiments already exist. What we lack is the ability to make that with GW bits.
Again I don't even know what a regular female could want out of w40k
The same as men?? Women and non-binary folks interested in the hobby aren't that different from men, you know.

Yes and I said it in my earlier posts, that there is a ton of factions who have females. And I see no reasons to remake marines or custodes to have females, instead , as I said it before, something like a female IG regiment. Am I not sure what non binary person is. People are binary, and females and males are different from each other. If they weren't then they wouldn't be picking different hobbies, jobes, careers etc.

I'm really not sure where this whole "but how do we know what women would want!!" logic comes from - just treat them like *people*.

So you mean they should get shity rules and unplayable factions followed by over powered stuff that breaks the game? I not sure what you mean by treated as people, because that is how GW treats it buyers. And GW is a company, it should produce stuff that sells, that people want. And to do that, they have to know what people want. I don't know what potential female buyers could want from a hobby like w40k. They clearly do not want the things that have been in it for the last few decades, because if they did, the hobby wouldn't be as dominated by by guys. I am what do you want me to say? that women want a 50/50 split in every army. Heck there is a possibility that something like a w40k hobby will never be interested to women. And this makes making drastic changes to the lore an odd thing to do.

Existing lore has been changing since 40k's inception.

Yes, but there are grades to everything. What is the chance that 50% of the primars suddenly turn out to be female? zero. Could GW write the lore that 100% of them are female? Of course it is their property. Should they do it? No, because it makes no sense.

Because those factions don't offer the same things that Astartes or Custodes do. If I squatted Grey Knights, and you complained, do you think I'd be justified in saying "you don't need Grey Knights, if you want psykers just play Thousand Sons or Eldar or Space Marines, they have psykers".

There is huge difference, between removing something that already exists in the lore and adding something that not only never existed before, but also changes retro activly a ton of the lore. There were no female space marines in the past, nor were the any custodes, and the lore was for decades that they couldn't be female. There is a difference between changing that, and removing any faction.

Really? You speak for all women?

I don't have to. They speak really well for themselfs.
In which case, you might want to listen to them, because whatever you're claiming isn't representative of women.
If women were interested in what w40k is, then they would be buying and playing the game in much larger numbers.
If men were interested in 40k, then all men would be playing the game.

Preference born out of what? Biology? Innate urges to ride a horse? Or societal pressures and expectations?

And, again - what about the women who *are* attracted to the hobby?

Doesn't matter. If something is not interesting to you it isn't. I don't like piccled onions. Does matter if it is the taste or my body knowing that I deal with a specific chemical in a bad way? no, just don't like them, so I don't eat them. And you are really not going to tell me that there is some sort of social pressures and expectations to ride horses or not play w40k. Now economical those I could imagine, but those barriers are the same not matter who you are.
As far as the women who already are in the hobby. there are already in the hobby. I assume this means they either already have an army, or are in the process of getting one. Which somehow they liked the game, the models etc enough to invest time and money in to the hobby.

And is being male a distinct trait? I don't believe it is.

Again - lore changes. There is no status quo.

You mean like bigger hand size, skeleton etc \those are litterally male traits. you can lay down a skeleton of a male and female next to each other and an archeologist or a doctor will tell you which one is which. And I already covered the lore changes. Yes some stuff can change. New stuff can be added. Core stuff should not and can not be changed without more or less killing the setting.


In certain very specific aspects, yes. But not the gender-reductive stuff you're pulling out, nor a lot of the stuff I've seen you claim as world-wide facts and attitudes.

The world is bigger than that. Perhaps try to have an open mind about that, and see that your own experiences aren't the only ones out there


You know I may not be smart. And I may not know much about world, the life. I may also not really get the social aspects of being human. But what I do know about is sports, physical activity, endurance and as I said it before, a woman is not the same as a man. And the differences between sex, as far as sports goes are huge. There is reason why you don't have mixed judo, wrestling, boxing, and any other sports. You don't because women would risk horrible injury, if they tried it. Including death. This is reduction of anything. The same way a guy at 13-14 will always get destroyed by a guy 2 years older. It is just simple biology, there is social aspect to it. They are just bigger, stronger and tougher then you.

Agreed. Saying how small a group it is, and why that's an excuse not to cater to them, is most likely a strong reason why that group is so small in the first place.

Well the question is always why ? any investment a company makes has to have returns. If the there are returns, then changes make no sense. Star Wars changed, replaced all the old characters with the ones. The new ones aren't liked. Worse the old ones were made to look bad while building up the new ones. So at the same time two things were achived. Old fans angry, new fans, not really liking the new stuff. A company like GW has that has to be very careful with what model lines they make. They can't risk to change the lore, make half the marine chapters female, only to find out that all the investment didn't bump up the sales. It is just not worht the risk for them. It is like giving a chance to a 8th or 9th rankers in an important match, when you can set up people number 1-4.


Drastic change, sure, but has anything proposed here really been a drastic change?

Female marines changes what 40 years of lore? You can't really go more drastic. You would have to turn the emperor in to an ork or an eldar to go further.



Does the Lord of the Rings pride itself on being a setting for player freedoms and customisation, a sandbox for Your Dudes?

Would certain things being allowed harm the wider work of fiction?

Well there is a difference between your dudes. Like lets say making your own IG regiment or a ranger character. And trying to make Gandalf and Radagast female. It stops being a your dude thing, when it impacts the entire settings.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Karol wrote:
Sorry, I should have been more specific, Halo Spartans say hi! And no fiction doesn't have limits. It's fiction.

Ok, but that is a different setting. I know nothing about Halo, besides the fact it exists. See Xboxs require good internet connection that never breaks. That is not a thing here, outside for a few big cities. Can't comment how they make, what ever a female spartan is, work when I don't know the setting. And I really hope it isn't "magic".
It works because the writer said it did, with whatever their super soldier process was.

Just like how 40k made up their own process, so did the design team of Halo - because at the end of the day, they're both fictional super soldiers, and appealing to reality is ultimately pointless. Women super soldiers are perfectly plausible.

As an adult who has been in both secondary and higher education, I can tell you school is all about killing time until adult life where everything sucks. The only things I learned from school that were in any way applicable to real-life were basic comprehension of language and maths, everything else is optional.
Making a career out of athleticism is not an easy ride. You either make it or you don't, there is no middle ground where you show up sometimes and don't really work. It's a brutal industry to be in and one injury could end your entire career more so than any other job.

Well then I would like to inform you that sports schools are different.
If they're different, then maybe you should consider how they're also different to real life in other places too, and aren't exactly always applicable.

Gender roles are trash and shouldn't be enforced. Warhammer is not a "boys/men's hobby" by default, society influence is the reason for it being a men/male-dominated one. Taking away labels of who a hobby is for is the first step in making the hobby better.

I am not sure what this has to do with gender roles.
The roles that women are "supposed" to like certain hobbies, and men are "supposed" to like others, and if you break those social rules, you are outcast.
If that is somehow a gender role, then everything is based on them, and then getting ridden of them would collapse the entire sociaty.
No, it really wouldn't. Society has enough automated labour that it wouldn't "collapse" if women took over traditionally male professions.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Gert wrote:
And no fiction doesn't have limits. It's fiction.


It does within the confines of the story.
And what sets those confines? Can those confines be changed? Are those confines essential to have? Does the story only work with those confines?

The Author sets the confines to prevent the story devolving into an incoherent mess of half-baked ideas as well as being in accordance with the themes and concepts he wants explored. So yes, they are kind of essential.
I'm talking about *these* specific confines. What is it about *these specific confines* that we're talking about which are so essential to the running of the story.

Are all confines essential?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Lord of the Rings is a work of fiction. Are there space ships in lord of the rings? Can Frodo morph into Godzilla?

Does the Lord of the Rings pride itself on being a setting for player freedoms and customisation, a sandbox for Your Dudes?

There is a provision for that, actually. It's called fan-fiction
Except that 40k specifically leaves a lot of room for Your Dudes, without it being immediately decanonised. Hell, GW are more than happy to share custom creations via their hobby showcases, they've done so with my own homebrews.

Would certain things being allowed harm the wider work of fiction?

I don't know what you mean by "certain things", but I do know that if you treat fiction as meaningless and open to inconsistency and last-minute changes you're going to end up with a lot of badly written stories.
And likewise, settings that refuse to change and needlessly cling to outdated and misguided principles often tend to be forgotten.

It's almost like asking for small adaptations wouldn't destroy the whole setting!

Karol wrote:
And what has that got to do with Necrons canonically having women?

well necron aren't human.
And? Why should that mean they don't have women?
Making necrons just "metal humans" is IMO too diminishing.
The *only* thing that's been said is that they have men and women. That's not enough to say they're just "metal humans".
What, are T'au blue humans because they have men and women too?


Gert is referring, I believe, to Spartans from the Halo franchise - as evidence that fictional super soldiers can be any gender, and would be just as competent.

It's fiction. They can be just as strong


Well to that degree yes. But then we are not entering the why. If it is they made it just because they could, and basic for it was still the human body. Then it really starts to sounds like an explanation that magic did it. It is bad lore and bad fiction. And there is already enough bad stuff with the cawl things, we really don't need more.
When you can tell me how to make a Space Marines or Spartan with our modern understandings of science, you can make these ridiculous biological arguments.

But fortunately, we don't have Space Marines or Spartans, because they're fictional, and therefore any of your ludicrous bio-essential arguments are meaningless, because *we literally don't know how to make Space Marines*.

Being able to make women super soldiers isn't bad fiction, and it's not any more "unrealistic" than making super soldiers in the first place.

All women guard regiments already exist. What we lack is the ability to make that with GW bits.
Again I don't even know what a regular female could want out of w40k
The same as men?? Women and non-binary folks interested in the hobby aren't that different from men, you know.

Yes and I said it in my earlier posts, that there is a ton of factions who have females. And I see no reasons to remake marines or custodes to have females, instead , as I said it before, something like a female IG regiment.
So why should Space Marines exist? If people want men, they can play Custodes or Guardsmen.

It's almost like Guardsmen aren't what people want.
Am I not sure what non binary person is.
Me - someone who does not fit into gender binaries.
People are binary
No, they're not.
and females and males are different from each other. If they weren't then they wouldn't be picking different hobbies, jobes, careers etc.
But women can have the same hobbies, jobs and careers as men. Men can have different hobbies, jobs, and careers from other men.

Perhaps the reason that people have different hobbies, jobs, and careers isn't because their gender dictates it, but because *everyone is different and likes different things*? Is that such an outlandish concept.

I'm really not sure where this whole "but how do we know what women would want!!" logic comes from - just treat them like *people*.

So you mean they should get shity rules and unplayable factions followed by over powered stuff that breaks the game?
If that's what everyone else gets, sure.
I don't know what potential female buyers could want from a hobby like w40k.
So what about potential male buyers - what could they possibly want?
They clearly do not want the things that have been in it for the last few decades, because if they did, the hobby wouldn't be as dominated by by guys.
And what about all the men who don't play?
Heck there is a possibility that something like a w40k hobby will never be interested to women.
There isn't that possibility at all, because there are women *in this hobby*.

Sorry, do you not think that there are women hobbyists out there?

What is the chance that 50% of the primars suddenly turn out to be female? zero. Could GW write the lore that 100% of them are female? Of course it is their property. Should they do it? No, because it makes no sense.
Space Marines don't make sense, but you accept that they do because it's a fictional universe. Why are women a step too far?

Because those factions don't offer the same things that Astartes or Custodes do. If I squatted Grey Knights, and you complained, do you think I'd be justified in saying "you don't need Grey Knights, if you want psykers just play Thousand Sons or Eldar or Space Marines, they have psykers".

There is huge difference, between removing something that already exists in the lore and adding something that not only never existed before, but also changes retro activly a ton of the lore.
Women Space Marines used to exist. Half-Eldar Ultramarines used to exist. Necrons used to be Chaos Androids.

Grey Knights also used to not exist too.
There were no female space marines in the past
Wrong. Look back at Rogue Trader.
the lore was for decades that they couldn't be female.
Which itself was a retcon.
There is a difference between changing that, and removing any faction.
My point, however, still stands - telling people to make do with something that isn't what they want isn't fair.

Really? You speak for all women?

I don't have to. They speak really well for themselfs.
In which case, you might want to listen to them, because whatever you're claiming isn't representative of women.
If women were interested in what w40k is, then they would be buying and playing the game in much larger numbers.
If men were interested in 40k, then all men would be playing the game.

Preference born out of what? Biology? Innate urges to ride a horse? Or societal pressures and expectations?

And, again - what about the women who *are* attracted to the hobby?

Doesn't matter. If something is not interesting to you it isn't. I don't like piccled onions. Does matter if it is the taste or my body knowing that I deal with a specific chemical in a bad way? no, just don't like them, so I don't eat them.
So what about the men who don't play 40k? Is that a biological reason? What about the women who do play 40k?

It very much does matter, because your argument is laced with bio-essential nonsense.
And you are really not going to tell me that there is some sort of social pressures and expectations to ride horses or not play w40k.
Yes, I am going to tell you that, because it's true. Even as simple as "blue is a boys colour" or "pink is a girls colour", or which films you show your children, or what hobbies are marketed towards them - you're goddamn right there's societal pressures to behave a certain way.
As far as the women who already are in the hobby. there are already in the hobby. I assume this means they either already have an army, or are in the process of getting one. Which somehow they liked the game, the models etc enough to invest time and money in to the hobby.
And what if those women want women Space Marines? Or the women who *would* be interested, and are interested in other similar hobbies, but avoid 40k because of the aforementioned issues?

And is being male a distinct trait? I don't believe it is.

Again - lore changes. There is no status quo.

You mean like bigger hand size, skeleton etc \those are litterally male traits.
Not all men are larger than women. You are making a biologically reductive argument.
you can lay down a skeleton of a male and female next to each other and an archeologist or a doctor will tell you which one is which.
Their *sex*, yes. Not their gender.
And I already covered the lore changes. Yes some stuff can change. New stuff can be added. Core stuff should not and can not be changed without more or less killing the setting.
And who determines what is "core stuff"? What is the "core stuff"?


In certain very specific aspects, yes. But not the gender-reductive stuff you're pulling out, nor a lot of the stuff I've seen you claim as world-wide facts and attitudes.

The world is bigger than that. Perhaps try to have an open mind about that, and see that your own experiences aren't the only ones out there


You know I may not be smart. And I may not know much about world, the life. I may also not really get the social aspects of being human. But what I do know about is sports, physical activity, endurance and as I said it before, a woman is not the same as a man.
And that doesn't mean that women are always weaker though. You fail to take into account variations within biological groups, and *also* fail to consider that sex is not the same as gender.

Your experience of sports is not generalisable to the rest of the world.
Star Wars changed, replaced all the old characters with the ones. The new ones aren't liked. Worse the old ones were made to look bad while building up the new ones. So at the same time two things were achived. Old fans angry, new fans, not really liking the new stuff.
You say that, but they made an absolute killing at the box office, and profits have only increased. The only one close to a flop was the latest SW film, but people were crying about sky falling down after the first of the sequels.
A company like GW has that has to be very careful with what model lines they make. They can't risk to change the lore, make half the marine chapters female, only to find out that all the investment didn't bump up the sales. It is just not worht the risk for them. It is like giving a chance to a 8th or 9th rankers in an important match, when you can set up people number 1-4.
If that's the case, then shouldn't GW just be ditching model lines that don't do well - like Grey Knights? If including women is such a risk, why are they adding them into the Stormcast? Why are we seeing increased women's representation everywhere else in the hobby if that's such a risk?


Drastic change, sure, but has anything proposed here really been a drastic change?

Female marines changes what 40 years of lore? You can't really go more drastic. You would have to turn the emperor in to an ork or an eldar to go further.
Primaris Marines change 40 years of lore. Destroying Cadia changes 40 years of lore. Reviving Guilliman changes 40 years of lore. These are so much more impactful than changing what you can do with your own little war dollies.


Does the Lord of the Rings pride itself on being a setting for player freedoms and customisation, a sandbox for Your Dudes?

Would certain things being allowed harm the wider work of fiction?

Well there is a difference between your dudes. Like lets say making your own IG regiment or a ranger character. And trying to make Gandalf and Radagast female. It stops being a your dude thing, when it impacts the entire settings.
But Gandalf and Radagast are existing characters, individuals. Space Marines are not individuals. Not every Space Marine has been named, identified, and had stories written about them. If, like you claim, we can't change Space Marines because they're not "Your Dudes", then how come I can make homebrew Chapters?

And how does adding women Space Marines impact the entire setting? Why would my Tau be affected by this? Why would my Guardsmen care who's inside the power armour suit that saves them from the equally uncaring Tyranids?


They/them

 
   
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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Lord of the Rings is a work of fiction. Are there space ships in Lord of the Rings?

Answer to that is technically yes. The sun and the moon of the Middle-Earth are carried by space faring ships.

   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

Karol wrote:
If you make a warrior, then no matter how much science you put in to making them, there is no way for a female to end up being as strong as male. Even fiction has limits. Specially when the starter is human body.


Space Marines have about as much in common with a male homo-sapiens from a biological perspective as I do with a banana. And I am not a sapient and sentient banana with very good contacts in the computer accessibility industry.

The vast gulf between a space marine and a human makes the differences between men and women basically non-existent.

Plus, they're wearing powered armour. It doesn't actually matter how strong they are, the armour is doing all the work. In fact, from a logistics point of view, you want a leaner build as it means you can use less material for the same amount of protection as the circumference of the pieces of the armour will be less. And you also save on food as your soldiers have less of a calorie requirement to maintain their base physical state.

My headcanon is that the Emperor was a misogynist who wanted to be surrounded by beefcake, glistening in oil as they slap each other on the back and massage each others shoulders as they pump iron with their big, meaty biceps. Think a combination of Pumping Iron and the volleyball scene from Top Gun but with even more homoeroticism. He didn't think to even try and use women for his project as it would ruin his dreams of his boys only treefort full of rippling man muscle and grunting. And since the Imperium is so scientifically backwards and views all accomplishments of the past as superior, they never thought to try in the 10,000 years since.

Said interpretation also adds another layer of irony to the Imperium's obsession with the space marines as the ubermensch of their empire and the "sons" of the Emperor. Like all fascist regimes which were built upon eugenics, the ubermensch is born out of a fetishization of the traits valued by the ruling party. In this case, behind all the grand talk of great crusades and a galaxy spanning empire, it was just that the Emperor really liked stacked, beefy men and was willing to make a deal with dark gods to get him some.

This message was edited 23 times. Last update was at 2021/07/31 21:11:51


The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
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Removed

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/31 20:23:35


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Karol, I'm going to give you some advice that you should not continue with this line of discussion. It is in multiple threads in the Background Forum and has been put back on the banned topics list because certain people couldn't remain civil.
   
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Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

Karol wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Space Marines have about as much in common with a male homo-sapiens from a biological perspective as I do with a banana. And I am not a sapient and sentient banana with very good contacts in the computer accessibility industry.

The vast gulf between a space marine and a human makes the differences between men and women basically non-existent.

Plus, they're wearing powered armour. It doesn't actually matter how strong they are, the armour is doing all the work.


You have seen someone of his second cycle of czech superanabolon. Plus you can't make, in w40k lore, a space marine out of banana , same way you can't make one out of a female. But you can make one out of a boy. That is the difference.


I haven't, does it fuse their bones and make them grow duplicate, redundant organs as well as some extra organs not present in humans? Does it allow them to eat the brains of their defeated opponents and absorb their memories? How about spit acid? Because I'm not talking about muscle mass. That is nothing to do with what actually makes a space marine a space marine, it is a side effect.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/07/31 20:00:24


The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
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[MOD]
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Cozy cockpit of an Imperial Knight

One and only warning, back on topic, or this one will join the others.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/31 20:55:16


 
   
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pontiac, michigan; usa

I joined the thread late but all i will say about what i've seen 40k's tone as is how i entered the hobby. Either Grim Dark or super goofy almost cartoonishly Over the Top. It was definitely Over the Top and cartoony in dawn of war 1 and that's how i feel it should be. Basically an Avatar of Khaine bursting into flames and shooting living guardsmen up hundreds of feet into the air only for them to fall on their backs and get up like it was a slight discomfort.

I'm not really a fan of hyper realism which doesn't make sense in fantasy sci-fi. If you want hyper realism it'd make more sense in Hard Sci-fi and that's not what 40k comes close to being.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/31 20:41:37


Join skavenblight today!

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Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Tonally 40k should be a Dark Comedy, following in footsteps of 2000AD and Brazil. It should be absurd and farcical, but executed in such a way that it retains comedic effort without coming across as edgy. Which is bloody hard to do right hence why GW seems to be going for the corporate-friendly-superhero approach.
When they split the Imperium in half I was hoping they would go for an Western and Eastern Roman Empire sort of thing, with the two halves of the Imperium diverging in drastic ways and lampooning different aspects of humanity. Sadly, that does not seem to be the case.

This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2021/07/31 21:44:44


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A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

So I was having a little think about it since my last post and it occurs that 40k currently has 3 separate and distinct tones to it.

Heresy: almost a horror in tone as things are becoming increasingly desperate and bleak, this tone is later lost as the series goes towards the siege series though.

Sandbox: this is the majority of 40k, a backdrop with some vagueness to it, a thing to set stories in but not define those stories per say, for example tonally The space marine battles series is very different from Eisenhorn series to the extent it seems like they could easily be alternate dimensions.

Grim Dark: these are the dirty stories, the older ones to be fair from the late 90's to early 2000's and a few in modern times like the warhammer horror series, a few heresy books and parts of the new Dark Imperium books (not the whole books).

Tonally speaking 40k seems to be a bit all over the place right now but that is not a bad thing per say as its catering for many types of taste.

Overall though there does need to be a unifying tone for the franchise otherwise it will suffer in the same way SW, Trek and others have due to poor writing and creators not having a clue what people want, for what its worth the sand box approach seems to work best for me.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Tonally 40k should be a Dark Comedy, following in footsteps of 2000AD and Brazil. It should be absurd and farcical, but executed in such a way that it retains comedic effort without coming across as edgy. Which is bloody hard to do right hence why GW seems to be going for the corporate-friendly-superhero approach.
When they split the Imperium in half I was hoping they would go for an Western and Eastern Roman Empire sort of thing, with the two halves of the Imperium diverging in drastic ways and lampooning different aspects of humanity. Sadly, that does not seem to be the case.


I think it's a bit early to conclude anything yet as relatively little has been written about Imperium Nihilus. I expect GW to keep milking the Indomitus Crusade for awhile to come so we may continue to get little definite information about the other side of the Rift.
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Why does it have to be a dark comedy?

Why does it have to be satirical?

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why does it have to be a dark comedy?

Why does it have to be satirical?


Because the alternative is that we take all the neo-fascist burn-the-heretic stuff seriously and get really creeped out.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
 
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