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Made in de
Been Around the Block




Reading again through the rumours and leaks so far I am a bit disheartened by the fact that instead of creating a cool new Faction Rule GW choose to do a plain copy of Space Marine Codex Doctrines. Fluffwise this is an insult, considering that CSM never followed any Codex Astartes, but follow it closer than the damned Ultramarines. Also the Icons, Marks and Subfaction Rules all read like variations of the same buffs changed here and there. Especially the wanton rules are just bad design. Looking at how awesome the Chaos Knight Rules became with the Harbinger of Doom (in terms of new interactions and a faction feeling more unique) it feels so far like GW lacks any motivation to do CSM well.

There is sooo much unused potential here. Either by tying CSM back up to HH a bit more or by pushing them more and more on the deamonic possesed design. Instead GW went full ,Space Mahrens but bad‘ train. Even the Accursed Weapons brought potential despite all controversy. Imagine different factions getting different buffs on that profile. People would then love to go wild on them. But no, just a weird inconsistent merge. I still hope some of the leaks will deviate from the final book because so far it looks like someone just desired to get it done. Or maybe the final book will look surprisingly better when we have the full access to it. Dunno.
   
Made in gb
Barpharanges







charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote:
Reading again through the rumours and leaks so far I am a bit disheartened by the fact that instead of creating a cool new Faction Rule GW choose to do a plain copy of Space Marine Codex Doctrines. Fluffwise this is an insult, considering that CSM never followed any Codex Astartes, but follow it closer than the damned Ultramarines. Also the Icons, Marks and Subfaction Rules all read like variations of the same buffs changed here and there. Especially the wanton rules are just bad design. Looking at how awesome the Chaos Knight Rules became with the Harbinger of Doom (in terms of new interactions and a faction feeling more unique) it feels so far like GW lacks any motivation to do CSM well.

There is sooo much unused potential here. Either by tying CSM back up to HH a bit more or by pushing them more and more on the deamonic possesed design. Instead GW went full ,Space Mahrens but bad‘ train. Even the Accursed Weapons brought potential despite all controversy. Imagine different factions getting different buffs on that profile. People would then love to go wild on them. But no, just a weird inconsistent merge. I still hope some of the leaks will deviate from the final book because so far it looks like someone just desired to get it done. Or maybe the final book will look surprisingly better when we have the full access to it. Dunno.


As someone else in the thread put it, CSMs have been following the Codex Astartes since 4th edition - following it far closer than actual Space Marines do.

With some luck the book will be better than the leaks portray (but there is really no room for optimism here) - but so far the best thing defenders can point to is a single kit (the leaked Cultist warband) not matching up with play test rules?

The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.  
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote:
Reading again through the rumours and leaks so far I am a bit disheartened by the fact that instead of creating a cool new Faction Rule GW choose to do a plain copy of Space Marine Codex Doctrines. Fluffwise this is an insult, considering that CSM never followed any Codex Astartes, but follow it closer than the damned Ultramarines. Also the Icons, Marks and Subfaction Rules all read like variations of the same buffs changed here and there. Especially the wanton rules are just bad design. Looking at how awesome the Chaos Knight Rules became with the Harbinger of Doom (in terms of new interactions and a faction feeling more unique) it feels so far like GW lacks any motivation to do CSM well.


Disheartened is a good way to put it.

Doctrines were novel and unique when they were introduced to the game. Giving CSM getting a tweaked version makes sense from the standpoint of symmetry, but it doesn't recognize the fact they are a fundamentally different faction that fights differently.

It's not a big problem, just a missed opportunity.

   
Made in fr
Lesser Daemon of Chaos






 techsoldaten wrote:
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote:
Reading again through the rumours and leaks so far I am a bit disheartened by the fact that instead of creating a cool new Faction Rule GW choose to do a plain copy of Space Marine Codex Doctrines. Fluffwise this is an insult, considering that CSM never followed any Codex Astartes, but follow it closer than the damned Ultramarines. Also the Icons, Marks and Subfaction Rules all read like variations of the same buffs changed here and there. Especially the wanton rules are just bad design. Looking at how awesome the Chaos Knight Rules became with the Harbinger of Doom (in terms of new interactions and a faction feeling more unique) it feels so far like GW lacks any motivation to do CSM well.


Disheartened is a good way to put it.

Doctrines were novel and unique when they were introduced to the game. Giving CSM getting a tweaked version makes sense from the standpoint of symmetry, but it doesn't recognize the fact they are a fundamentally different faction that fights differently.

It's not a big problem, just a missed opportunity.


Yeah. Plus, the doctrine would have passed way better if our dex came out way earlier into 9th.

-"For the Ruinous Powers!" 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 techsoldaten wrote:
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote:
Reading again through the rumours and leaks so far I am a bit disheartened by the fact that instead of creating a cool new Faction Rule GW choose to do a plain copy of Space Marine Codex Doctrines. Fluffwise this is an insult, considering that CSM never followed any Codex Astartes, but follow it closer than the damned Ultramarines. Also the Icons, Marks and Subfaction Rules all read like variations of the same buffs changed here and there. Especially the wanton rules are just bad design. Looking at how awesome the Chaos Knight Rules became with the Harbinger of Doom (in terms of new interactions and a faction feeling more unique) it feels so far like GW lacks any motivation to do CSM well.


Disheartened is a good way to put it.

Doctrines were novel and unique when they were introduced to the game. Giving CSM getting a tweaked version makes sense from the standpoint of symmetry, but it doesn't recognize the fact they are a fundamentally different faction that fights differently.

It's not a big problem, just a missed opportunity.
I do feel it is a big problem, because it speaks to how fundamentally misaligned the design team is with what the community wants.

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Made in us
RogueSangre





The Cockatrice Malediction

CSM may follow the Codex Astartes closer than loyalists, but loyalists have more pre-Heresy equipment! I think this is because loyalists are mostly primaris marines from the Heresy-era, but CSM are mostly firstborn who turned to the dark side much later.
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote:
Reading again through the rumours and leaks so far I am a bit disheartened by the fact that instead of creating a cool new Faction Rule GW choose to do a plain copy of Space Marine Codex Doctrines. Fluffwise this is an insult, considering that CSM never followed any Codex Astartes, but follow it closer than the damned Ultramarines. Also the Icons, Marks and Subfaction Rules all read like variations of the same buffs changed here and there. Especially the wanton rules are just bad design. Looking at how awesome the Chaos Knight Rules became with the Harbinger of Doom (in terms of new interactions and a faction feeling more unique) it feels so far like GW lacks any motivation to do CSM well.


Disheartened is a good way to put it.

Doctrines were novel and unique when they were introduced to the game. Giving CSM getting a tweaked version makes sense from the standpoint of symmetry, but it doesn't recognize the fact they are a fundamentally different faction that fights differently.

It's not a big problem, just a missed opportunity.
I do feel it is a big problem, because it speaks to how fundamentally misaligned the design team is with what the community wants.

Yeah, giving CSM "Spiky Doctrines" is both incredibly uncreative, and not what many CSM players would want. They might be ok mechanically, but thematically, they're a complete miss IMO. Especially when compared to what the other Chaos factions released so far have, like Death Guard, Thousand Sons, and Chaos Knights.
   
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On the Internet

charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote:
Reading again through the rumours and leaks so far I am a bit disheartened by the fact that instead of creating a cool new Faction Rule GW choose to do a plain copy of Space Marine Codex Doctrines. Fluffwise this is an insult, considering that CSM never followed any Codex Astartes, but follow it closer than the damned Ultramarines. Also the Icons, Marks and Subfaction Rules all read like variations of the same buffs changed here and there. Especially the wanton rules are just bad design. Looking at how awesome the Chaos Knight Rules became with the Harbinger of Doom (in terms of new interactions and a faction feeling more unique) it feels so far like GW lacks any motivation to do CSM well.

There is sooo much unused potential here. Either by tying CSM back up to HH a bit more or by pushing them more and more on the deamonic possesed design. Instead GW went full ,Space Mahrens but bad‘ train. Even the Accursed Weapons brought potential despite all controversy. Imagine different factions getting different buffs on that profile. People would then love to go wild on them. But no, just a weird inconsistent merge. I still hope some of the leaks will deviate from the final book because so far it looks like someone just desired to get it done. Or maybe the final book will look surprisingly better when we have the full access to it. Dunno.

I mean Renegades followed the Codex, but the Legions definitely shouldn't be doing Doctrines and should be doing something else.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 ClockworkZion wrote:
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote:
Reading again through the rumours and leaks so far I am a bit disheartened by the fact that instead of creating a cool new Faction Rule GW choose to do a plain copy of Space Marine Codex Doctrines. Fluffwise this is an insult, considering that CSM never followed any Codex Astartes, but follow it closer than the damned Ultramarines. Also the Icons, Marks and Subfaction Rules all read like variations of the same buffs changed here and there. Especially the wanton rules are just bad design. Looking at how awesome the Chaos Knight Rules became with the Harbinger of Doom (in terms of new interactions and a faction feeling more unique) it feels so far like GW lacks any motivation to do CSM well.

There is sooo much unused potential here. Either by tying CSM back up to HH a bit more or by pushing them more and more on the deamonic possesed design. Instead GW went full ,Space Mahrens but bad‘ train. Even the Accursed Weapons brought potential despite all controversy. Imagine different factions getting different buffs on that profile. People would then love to go wild on them. But no, just a weird inconsistent merge. I still hope some of the leaks will deviate from the final book because so far it looks like someone just desired to get it done. Or maybe the final book will look surprisingly better when we have the full access to it. Dunno.

I mean Renegades followed the Codex, but the Legions definitely shouldn't be doing Doctrines and should be doing something else.

Time for me to butt in and say again Renegades and Traitor Chapters should be handled in the Loyalist Scum codex.
   
Made in gb
Mighty Brass Scorpion of Khorne




EviscerationPlague wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote:
Reading again through the rumours and leaks so far I am a bit disheartened by the fact that instead of creating a cool new Faction Rule GW choose to do a plain copy of Space Marine Codex Doctrines. Fluffwise this is an insult, considering that CSM never followed any Codex Astartes, but follow it closer than the damned Ultramarines. Also the Icons, Marks and Subfaction Rules all read like variations of the same buffs changed here and there. Especially the wanton rules are just bad design. Looking at how awesome the Chaos Knight Rules became with the Harbinger of Doom (in terms of new interactions and a faction feeling more unique) it feels so far like GW lacks any motivation to do CSM well.

There is sooo much unused potential here. Either by tying CSM back up to HH a bit more or by pushing them more and more on the deamonic possesed design. Instead GW went full ,Space Mahrens but bad‘ train. Even the Accursed Weapons brought potential despite all controversy. Imagine different factions getting different buffs on that profile. People would then love to go wild on them. But no, just a weird inconsistent merge. I still hope some of the leaks will deviate from the final book because so far it looks like someone just desired to get it done. Or maybe the final book will look surprisingly better when we have the full access to it. Dunno.

I mean Renegades followed the Codex, but the Legions definitely shouldn't be doing Doctrines and should be doing something else.

Time for me to butt in and say again Renegades and Traitor Chapters should be handled in the Loyalist Scum codex.


They don't belong in either is the issue, there is no right or wrong for how far down the chaos path they've gone. In reality an advanced build a faction that adds loyalist tech or daemon units based on how many corruption points you pick or something would be a good go between.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Dudeface wrote:
Spoiler:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote:
Reading again through the rumours and leaks so far I am a bit disheartened by the fact that instead of creating a cool new Faction Rule GW choose to do a plain copy of Space Marine Codex Doctrines. Fluffwise this is an insult, considering that CSM never followed any Codex Astartes, but follow it closer than the damned Ultramarines. Also the Icons, Marks and Subfaction Rules all read like variations of the same buffs changed here and there. Especially the wanton rules are just bad design. Looking at how awesome the Chaos Knight Rules became with the Harbinger of Doom (in terms of new interactions and a faction feeling more unique) it feels so far like GW lacks any motivation to do CSM well.

There is sooo much unused potential here. Either by tying CSM back up to HH a bit more or by pushing them more and more on the deamonic possesed design. Instead GW went full ,Space Mahrens but bad‘ train. Even the Accursed Weapons brought potential despite all controversy. Imagine different factions getting different buffs on that profile. People would then love to go wild on them. But no, just a weird inconsistent merge. I still hope some of the leaks will deviate from the final book because so far it looks like someone just desired to get it done. Or maybe the final book will look surprisingly better when we have the full access to it. Dunno.

I mean Renegades followed the Codex, but the Legions definitely shouldn't be doing Doctrines and should be doing something else.

Time for me to butt in and say again Renegades and Traitor Chapters should be handled in the Loyalist Scum codex.


They don't belong in either is the issue, there is no right or wrong for how far down the chaos path they've gone. In reality an advanced build a faction that adds loyalist tech or daemon units based on how many corruption points you pick or something would be a good go between.

Aye. I think that a lot of the "Renegades belong in the Loyalist Scum Codex" folks always assume that all Renegades are recent Renegades, who have only been turned for a short time. But many Renegades will have been operating against the Imperium for a long time, and will have acquired many of the more typical "Chaos" units, while having lost some of the loyalist stuff that tends to break down in the Warp, like anti-grav tech. The CSM codex does a fairly decent job of representing these "older" Renegade warbands, but the loyalist codex would possibly be better for "newer" Renegades. The trick is getting the "in between" warbands right.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Spoiler:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote:
Reading again through the rumours and leaks so far I am a bit disheartened by the fact that instead of creating a cool new Faction Rule GW choose to do a plain copy of Space Marine Codex Doctrines. Fluffwise this is an insult, considering that CSM never followed any Codex Astartes, but follow it closer than the damned Ultramarines. Also the Icons, Marks and Subfaction Rules all read like variations of the same buffs changed here and there. Especially the wanton rules are just bad design. Looking at how awesome the Chaos Knight Rules became with the Harbinger of Doom (in terms of new interactions and a faction feeling more unique) it feels so far like GW lacks any motivation to do CSM well.

There is sooo much unused potential here. Either by tying CSM back up to HH a bit more or by pushing them more and more on the deamonic possesed design. Instead GW went full ,Space Mahrens but bad‘ train. Even the Accursed Weapons brought potential despite all controversy. Imagine different factions getting different buffs on that profile. People would then love to go wild on them. But no, just a weird inconsistent merge. I still hope some of the leaks will deviate from the final book because so far it looks like someone just desired to get it done. Or maybe the final book will look surprisingly better when we have the full access to it. Dunno.

I mean Renegades followed the Codex, but the Legions definitely shouldn't be doing Doctrines and should be doing something else.

Time for me to butt in and say again Renegades and Traitor Chapters should be handled in the Loyalist Scum codex.


They don't belong in either is the issue, there is no right or wrong for how far down the chaos path they've gone. In reality an advanced build a faction that adds loyalist tech or daemon units based on how many corruption points you pick or something would be a good go between.

Aye. I think that a lot of the "Renegades belong in the Loyalist Scum Codex" folks always assume that all Renegades are recent Renegades, who have only been turned for a short time. But many Renegades will have been operating against the Imperium for a long time, and will have acquired many of the more typical "Chaos" units, while having lost some of the loyalist stuff that tends to break down in the Warp, like anti-grav tech. The CSM codex does a fairly decent job of representing these "older" Renegade warbands, but the loyalist codex would possibly be better for "newer" Renegades. The trick is getting the "in between" warbands right.

I haven't finished my SM Fandex (because nobody will play against it anyway) but the system I'd have is each founding Chapter (and its successors) has an automatic "unique" unit they have access to, and then can be customized with further unique units. No, your Ultramarines don't NEED a Calvary equivalent, but one of your Ultramarine successors might. Just don't use them if you don't want them, basically.

One unique unit would be "Mutants" which covers Wulfen equivalent. A renegade Chapter loses access to all unique units except said Mutants, and gains access to Furies, Daemon Prince, and....something else I haven't decided. It sounds like a lot until you realize I'm doing consolidation of many unit entries so there's theoretical space.
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






 Gadzilla666 wrote:
The trick is getting the "in between" warbands right.

IMO there wouldn't be a point as it would be a mess of restrictions and rule swaps that would cause more problems than it would solve. One or the other should be the choice for rules, models is down to the individual.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Gert wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
The trick is getting the "in between" warbands right.

IMO there wouldn't be a point as it would be a mess of restrictions and rule swaps that would cause more problems than it would solve. One or the other should be the choice for rules, models is down to the individual.

Yeah, it would be difficult to avoid just ending up with "CSM +1" (loyalist units/equipment), or "loyalists +1" (CSM units/equipment). For narrative purposes, I guess you could go with the 2nd edition Chaos Codex route and allow Renegades to use loyalist equipment and units, but at a significant price increase (+50%), maybe?
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







EviscerationPlague wrote:
No, your Ultramarines don't NEED a Calvary equivalent, but one of your Ultramarine successors might. Just don't use them if you don't want them, basically.

No-one needs another Calvary - or another Calgary, for that matter. One of either was enough.

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My [url=https://pileofpotential.com/dysartes]Pile of Potential[/url - updates ongoing...

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
Made in ca
Deadshot Weapon Moderati




I don't know, horse-shoes are shaped like omegas, right?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Nomeny wrote:
I don't know, horse-shoes are shaped like omegas, right?

Plus blue Marines on mutant horses with melee weapons sounds nicer than pale Grey marines on Wolves.
   
Made in us
Blessed Living Saint




On the Internet

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Nomeny wrote:
I don't know, horse-shoes are shaped like omegas, right?

Plus blue Marines on mutant horses with melee weapons sounds nicer than pale Grey marines on Wolves.

That must be why GW paints them baby blue instead....
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 ClockworkZion wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
Nomeny wrote:
I don't know, horse-shoes are shaped like omegas, right?

Plus blue Marines on mutant horses with melee weapons sounds nicer than pale Grey marines on Wolves.

That must be why GW paints them baby blue instead....


Baby Blue so they stand out from Bare Sprue
   
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On the Internet

Spotted on the Chaos 40k subreddit:
Spoiler:



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/28 07:43:13


 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

So, for Chaos Lords in Terminator armour at least, lighting claws are still lighting claws and power axes are still power axes. But, power axes are now D2? And +1 W, +1 Ld, and +2A?
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




Stupid sorcerer should stop messing around with his Axe, it just makes it unreliable...
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







Nomeny wrote:
I don't know, horse-shoes are shaped like omegas, right?

But horseshoes go on cavalry - crucifixions go on at Calvary...

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My [url=https://pileofpotential.com/dysartes]Pile of Potential[/url - updates ongoing...

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
Made in gb
Furious Raptor




Master crafted Power Axe for the Lord.

Power creep (or GW clowns) in action, the Sorcerer Lord has 6W 5A vs. TS/DG with 5W 4A.

Some mixed feelings, as I've spent the whole time since those codexes came out saying the characters are all a wound (and sometimes attack) short of where they should be.

Adding in the missing W and A to TS/DG via dataslate would be nice. Adding master crafted Axe/Sword to Blightlords would be even nicer.

There has been a lot less hype for the CSM codex for the last two months as I think a lot of players just couldn't work out how they would keep the stats even between shared TS/DG/SM/CSM units and have the power level be anywhere close to the last five codexes.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Terminator characters get extra wounds...

edit: n/m I'm wrong.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/28 09:07:25


I present you, the the most misquoted part of all 40k lore:
Genetor Lukas Anzion in Codex Orks, 3rd edition wrote:[...] To the Ork, the only conceivable explanation for this is that the vehicle travels faster because it is red. However, as disturbing as it sounds, these 'facts' become true. Red Ork vehicles do travel perceptibly faster than those of other colors, even when all other design aspects are nominally the same. Similarly, many captured Ork weapons and items of equipment should not work, and indeed do not work unless wielded by an Ork. I believe this is linked to the strong psychic aura surrounding all Orkoids and have developed the Anzion Theorem of Orkoid Mechamorphic Resonant Kinetics. I theorise that many Ork inventions work because the Orks themselves think that they should work. The strong telekinetic abilities of the Ork's subconscious somehow ensures that the machinery or weaponry functions as desired.

This is literally all GW ever wrote on this topic - everything else is meme knowledge 
   
Made in nl
Been Around the Block




The images of Traitor Guard's sprues just came out at GW store!

I see looooooooooooooooots of options there, a lot of fun to mix them with regular guards and cultists sprues as well
   
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Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

EightFoldPath wrote:
Power creep (or GW clowns) in action, the Sorcerer Lord has 6W 5A vs. TS/DG with 5W 4A.

Some mixed feelings, as I've spent the whole time since those codexes came out saying the characters are all a wound (and sometimes attack) short of where they should be.

Adding in the missing W and A to TS/DG via dataslate would be nice. Adding master crafted Axe/Sword to Blightlords would be even nicer.
Could be power creep or it could be differentiation in the Sorcerers between Codexes:
  • CSM: +1W and +1A
  • Death Guard: +1 T and Disgustingly Resilient
  • Thousand Sons: Thrall ability (more Sorcerers per detachment), two Psychic Disciplines of 9 powers each, and the Cult Psychic Power as an additional power (thus 3 know powers instead of 2)
  •    
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    The dark hollows of Kentucky

    Could be either, maybe the extra wound is to add some durability without the special rules that Death Guard and Thousand Sons have (Disgustingly Resilient, All is Dust), and the extra attack is to make the CSM Sorcerer more "fighty" than the more psychically powerful Thousand Sons, and tougher Death Guard Sorcerers. Or, it's just codex creep.
       
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    Longtime Dakkanaut




    Hurrah for inconsistency!
       
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    Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





    Southern New Hampshire

     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    Could be either, maybe the extra wound is to add some durability without the special rules that Death Guard and Thousand Sons have (Disgustingly Resilient, All is Dust), and the extra attack is to make the CSM Sorcerer more "fighty" than the more psychically powerful Thousand Sons, and tougher Death Guard Sorcerers. Or, it's just codex creep.


    'All is Dust' doesn't apply to characters, just Rubricae and Terminators.

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