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Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Could be either, maybe the extra wound is to add some durability without the special rules that Death Guard and Thousand Sons have (Disgustingly Resilient, All is Dust), and the extra attack is to make the CSM Sorcerer more "fighty" than the more psychically powerful Thousand Sons, and tougher Death Guard Sorcerers. Or, it's just codex creep.


'All is Dust' doesn't apply to characters, just Rubricae and Terminators.

Really? I stand corrected. My apologies to Thousand Sons players.
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator





Does anyone know if the rule stating that you can only have one Lord Discordant means that you can have only one per battalion or just one in the entire army?
   
Made in us
Bounding Assault Marine





 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Does anyone know if the rule stating that you can only have one Lord Discordant means that you can have only one per battalion or just one in the entire army?


Those rules have been by detachment, not by army. Presumably it'll also block lords. And then Daemon Princes will also have a similar rule (I doubt they'll block taking a lord+DP).
   
Made in it
Fresh-Faced New User




 cole1114 wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Does anyone know if the rule stating that you can only have one Lord Discordant means that you can have only one per battalion or just one in the entire army?


Those rules have been by detachment, not by army. Presumably it'll also block lords. And then Daemon Princes will also have a similar rule (I doubt they'll block taking a lord+DP).

Death guard cannot field a lord and a dp in the same detachment. The rule is called gelosia infernale in italian
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User





pjklan wrote:
 cole1114 wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Does anyone know if the rule stating that you can only have one Lord Discordant means that you can have only one per battalion or just one in the entire army?


Those rules have been by detachment, not by army. Presumably it'll also block lords. And then Daemon Princes will also have a similar rule (I doubt they'll block taking a lord+DP).

Death guard cannot field a lord and a dp in the same detachment. The rule is called gelosia infernale in italian


To my understanding this was changed in an FAQ as it removed the lord of the Death Guard from the data sheet of the DP
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Fwlshadowalker wrote:
To my understanding this was changed in an FAQ as it removed the lord of the Death Guard from the data sheet of the DP


Correct. DG can take one prince and one lord per detachment.

I present you, the the most misquoted part of all 40k lore:
Genetor Lukas Anzion in Codex Orks, 3rd edition wrote:[...] To the Ork, the only conceivable explanation for this is that the vehicle travels faster because it is red. However, as disturbing as it sounds, these 'facts' become true. Red Ork vehicles do travel perceptibly faster than those of other colors, even when all other design aspects are nominally the same. Similarly, many captured Ork weapons and items of equipment should not work, and indeed do not work unless wielded by an Ork. I believe this is linked to the strong psychic aura surrounding all Orkoids and have developed the Anzion Theorem of Orkoid Mechamorphic Resonant Kinetics. I theorise that many Ork inventions work because the Orks themselves think that they should work. The strong telekinetic abilities of the Ork's subconscious somehow ensures that the machinery or weaponry functions as desired.

This is literally all GW ever wrote on this topic - everything else is meme knowledge 
   
Made in us
Bounding Assault Marine





So with the confirmation Kratos can be taken in 40k, I wonder if they'll end up as HS or LOW.

I'm hoping for HS, mostly because I'm already planning on buying two anyway.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 cole1114 wrote:
So with the confirmation Kratos can be taken in 40k, I wonder if they'll end up as HS or LOW.

I'm hoping for HS, mostly because I'm already planning on buying two anyway.

It's as big as a Spartan, so probably a LoW. And it'll have Martial Legacy.

Aaaannddd.........how much do you want to bet they give it to loyalists, but not Chaos?
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator





 cole1114 wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Does anyone know if the rule stating that you can only have one Lord Discordant means that you can have only one per battalion or just one in the entire army?


Those rules have been by detachment, not by army. Presumably it'll also block lords. And then Daemon Princes will also have a similar rule (I doubt they'll block taking a lord+DP).


Ok that makes sense. It's funny since in 8th edition, it was for a while the meta to take three disco lords or three princes
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Aaaannddd.........how much do you want to bet they give it to loyalists, but not Chaos?

Given you've preemptively started to gripe about it, I kinda hope that happens.

I could see a GYB datasheet being Loyalist only, though, only for the Kratos to show up in the CSM 'dex a little later, however.

2021 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My [url=https://pileofpotential.com/dysartes]Pile of Potential[/url - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Dysartes wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Aaaannddd.........how much do you want to bet they give it to loyalists, but not Chaos?

Given you've preemptively started to gripe about it, I kinda hope that happens.

I could see a GYB datasheet being Loyalist only, though, only for the Kratos to show up in the CSM 'dex a little later, however.

Meh, just going by precedent. I don't personally care that much, beyond parity. I already have a Fellblade and two Sicarans, I don't have much interest in their awkward middle sibling.
   
Made in us
Bounding Assault Marine





 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 cole1114 wrote:
So with the confirmation Kratos can be taken in 40k, I wonder if they'll end up as HS or LOW.

I'm hoping for HS, mostly because I'm already planning on buying two anyway.

It's as big as a Spartan, so probably a LoW. And it'll have Martial Legacy.

Aaaannddd.........how much do you want to bet they give it to loyalists, but not Chaos?


I hope not. I'm already planning on finding some nice flayed body models to pop all over mine. The nice thing about night lords is they work in both eras that way.

I also think they should probably just make the spartan a HS... but after the monolith I doubt they'd make anything even remotely sizable a HS anyway.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Meh, just going by precedent. I don't personally care that much, beyond parity. I already have a Fellblade and two Sicarans, I don't have much interest in their awkward middle sibling.
I want one for my CSM just so I can have an excuse to call the tank the 'Blades of Chaos'.


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in it
Fresh-Faced New User




 Jidmah wrote:
 Fwlshadowalker wrote:
To my understanding this was changed in an FAQ as it removed the lord of the Death Guard from the data sheet of the DP


Correct. DG can take one prince and one lord per detachment.

Great! I just earned 3 command points
   
Made in gb
Barpharanges







 Dysartes wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Aaaannddd.........how much do you want to bet they give it to loyalists, but not Chaos?

Given you've preemptively started to gripe about it, I kinda hope that happens.

I could see a GYB datasheet being Loyalist only, though, only for the Kratos to show up in the CSM 'dex a little later, however.


Cutting off your own nose to spite your face. Every single time.

Thomas Ligotti wrote:"If you do not feel good enough for long enough, you should act as if you do and even think as if you do... So start pretending that you feel good enough for long enough, stop your complaining, and get back in line."

 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







 blood reaper wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Aaaannddd.........how much do you want to bet they give it to loyalists, but not Chaos?

Given you've preemptively started to gripe about it, I kinda hope that happens.

I could see a GYB datasheet being Loyalist only, though, only for the Kratos to show up in the CSM 'dex a little later, however.


Cutting off your own nose to spite your face. Every single time.

Ensuring that incessant complaining has consequences, more like.

And given the CSM is now probably a July/Aug release, it isn't that major anyway, especially if you confirm it when the GYB datasheet drops. You might need to do additional GYB ones for DG/TS/WE, though.

2021 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My [url=https://pileofpotential.com/dysartes]Pile of Potential[/url - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
Made in us
Spawn of Chaos






So with HH starting a two-week preorder period starting on the 4th, does that preclude any major, potentially spiky releases going up for preorder on the 11th? Been out of the loop for a while and I'm not sure how things are done these days.

"All I ever wanted were pics of the new Possessed sprues." -Lorgar, M31

Word Bearers, Daemons and Misc. Painting Thread
Come hold the withered hand of evil... 
   
Made in fi
5th God of Chaos (O'rly?)





 RazakelXIII wrote:
So with HH starting a two-week preorder period starting on the 4th, does that preclude any major, potentially spiky releases going up for preorder on the 11th? Been out of the loop for a while and I'm not sure how things are done these days.

"All I ever wanted were pics of the new Possessed sprues." -Lorgar, M31


Yes. No CSM codex in between. 18.6 is earliest preorder for it or anything else of note(aos ghb22, sylvaneth&skaven battletomes for myself that I'm waiting).

2022 painted/bought: 307/419 
   
Made in de
Powerful Ushbati






 RazakelXIII wrote:
So with HH starting a two-week preorder period starting on the 4th, does that preclude any major, potentially spiky releases going up for preorder on the 11th? Been out of the loop for a while and I'm not sure how things are done these days.

"All I ever wanted were pics of the new Possessed sprues." -Lorgar, M31


I don't remember a two week pre-order that added new pre-orders in the middle of it. The earliest we should expect Chaos Marines is pre-order on the 18th, release on the 25th. Unless GW wants to release something else first, like more Horus Heresy or some AoS stuff.

Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone? 
   
Made in gb
Barpharanges







 Dysartes wrote:
 blood reaper wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Aaaannddd.........how much do you want to bet they give it to loyalists, but not Chaos?

Given you've preemptively started to gripe about it, I kinda hope that happens.

I could see a GYB datasheet being Loyalist only, though, only for the Kratos to show up in the CSM 'dex a little later, however.


Cutting off your own nose to spite your face. Every single time.

Ensuring that incessant complaining has consequences, more like.


"How dare you want to have access to things - for this crime, you won't have anything!"

No it still seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

40k fans and GW apologists legit have the most bizarre and spiteful mindsets around.

Thomas Ligotti wrote:"If you do not feel good enough for long enough, you should act as if you do and even think as if you do... So start pretending that you feel good enough for long enough, stop your complaining, and get back in line."

 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
Disheartened is a good way to put it.

Doctrines were novel and unique when they were introduced to the game. Giving CSM getting a tweaked version makes sense from the standpoint of symmetry, but it doesn't recognize the fact they are a fundamentally different faction that fights differently.

It's not a big problem, just a missed opportunity.
I do feel it is a big problem, because it speaks to how fundamentally misaligned the design team is with what the community wants.

Yeah, giving CSM "Spiky Doctrines" is both incredibly uncreative, and not what many CSM players would want. They might be ok mechanically, but thematically, they're a complete miss IMO. Especially when compared to what the other Chaos factions released so far have, like Death Guard, Thousand Sons, and Chaos Knights.


Another question worth considering: will these superdoctrines make much of a difference for CSM armies?

Coming from the standpoint CSM generally field mid-range shooting, melee oriented lists. While the new Codex might introduce some new and unique playstyles, our unit selection is differs from Loyalist options in terms of weapon selection, range of shooting, and presence on the board. When you consider each doctrine on it's own, it seems like they're only situationally beneficial and only for certain lists.

The Destruction doctrine gives exploding 6s to heavy / grenade / rapid fire weapons. It applies turn 1. So Obliterators, Havocs, Helbrutes, Forgefiends, Predators, Land Raiders and Lord of Skulls can benefit from it. But Obliterators generally start in reserve, Forgefiends don't have great range, and Preds / LRs / LoS don't appear in too many lists. So this doctrine really only matters for lists with Havocs and Helbrutes, and it's only for one turn. Even so, things like Lascannons and Missile Launchers are single shot, you don't have a huge pool of dice to throw.

The Massacre doctrine gives exploding 6s to Rapid Fire / Assault / Pistol weapons. It applies turn 2 and possibly 3. Bolters, Sonic Blasters, Plasma Guns, Melta Guns, and their pistol / combi variants are the guns that benefit from this doctrine. While Plasma / Melta guns are certainly great, the only unit we have that can take more than 2 are Chosen. We don't have equivalent units to Plasma Intercessors, who all carry a Plasma Gun. And unlike Bolt Carbines, with 30" range, we have to get to 24" / 12" to shoot. This doesn't benefit us the same way it would a Loyalist army because of the lack of weapons specialization, and it won't apply to as many models based on range.

The Slaughter doctrine gives exploding 6s to pistol / melee / assault attacks. It applies from turn 3 / 4 on. Various HQs, CSMs, Chosen, Possessed, melee Obliterators, Maulerfiends, melee Helbrutes, and Venomcrawlers will see the most benefit, they will have the large pools of dice that make exploding 6s matter most. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the list that would most benefit from this kind of doctrine would be a Possessed Bomb. Anything else would be less efficient. So great if you're footslogging large units that charge across the board to tear into opponents, but far less great for any other kind of list.

(For the record, I don't know if superdoctrines will apply to Cultists / Mutants / Cult troops. I'm assuming not.)

Feel free to explain why I'm wrong, would love to hear. But my take is the superdoctrines are structured for an army more like Primaris Marines and offer far fewer benefits to CSM based on the units we actually have.




   
Made in gb
Mighty Brass Scorpion of Khorne




 blood reaper wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
 blood reaper wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Aaaannddd.........how much do you want to bet they give it to loyalists, but not Chaos?

Given you've preemptively started to gripe about it, I kinda hope that happens.

I could see a GYB datasheet being Loyalist only, though, only for the Kratos to show up in the CSM 'dex a little later, however.


Cutting off your own nose to spite your face. Every single time.

Ensuring that incessant complaining has consequences, more like.


"How dare you want to have access to things - for this crime, you won't have anything!"

No it still seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

40k fans and GW apologists legit have the most bizarre and spiteful mindsets around.


Actually it's more "how dare you complain about not having something you don't know if you don't have and nobody else has access to".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 techsoldaten wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
Disheartened is a good way to put it.

Doctrines were novel and unique when they were introduced to the game. Giving CSM getting a tweaked version makes sense from the standpoint of symmetry, but it doesn't recognize the fact they are a fundamentally different faction that fights differently.

It's not a big problem, just a missed opportunity.
I do feel it is a big problem, because it speaks to how fundamentally misaligned the design team is with what the community wants.

Yeah, giving CSM "Spiky Doctrines" is both incredibly uncreative, and not what many CSM players would want. They might be ok mechanically, but thematically, they're a complete miss IMO. Especially when compared to what the other Chaos factions released so far have, like Death Guard, Thousand Sons, and Chaos Knights.


Another question worth considering: will these superdoctrines make much of a difference for CSM armies?

Coming from the standpoint CSM generally field mid-range shooting, melee oriented lists. While the new Codex might introduce some new and unique playstyles, our unit selection is differs from Loyalist options in terms of weapon selection, range of shooting, and presence on the board. When you consider each doctrine on it's own, it seems like they're only situationally beneficial and only for certain lists.

The Destruction doctrine gives exploding 6s to heavy / grenade / rapid fire weapons. It applies turn 1. So Obliterators, Havocs, Helbrutes, Forgefiends, Predators, Land Raiders and Lord of Skulls can benefit from it. But Obliterators generally start in reserve, Forgefiends don't have great range, and Preds / LRs / LoS don't appear in too many lists. So this doctrine really only matters for lists with Havocs and Helbrutes, and it's only for one turn. Even so, things like Lascannons and Missile Launchers are single shot, you don't have a huge pool of dice to throw.

The Massacre doctrine gives exploding 6s to Rapid Fire / Assault / Pistol weapons. It applies turn 2 and possibly 3. Bolters, Sonic Blasters, Plasma Guns, Melta Guns, and their pistol / combi variants are the guns that benefit from this doctrine. While Plasma / Melta guns are certainly great, the only unit we have that can take more than 2 are Chosen. We don't have equivalent units to Plasma Intercessors, who all carry a Plasma Gun. And unlike Bolt Carbines, with 30" range, we have to get to 24" / 12" to shoot. This doesn't benefit us the same way it would a Loyalist army because of the lack of weapons specialization, and it won't apply to as many models based on range.

The Slaughter doctrine gives exploding 6s to pistol / melee / assault attacks. It applies from turn 3 / 4 on. Various HQs, CSMs, Chosen, Possessed, melee Obliterators, Maulerfiends, melee Helbrutes, and Venomcrawlers will see the most benefit, they will have the large pools of dice that make exploding 6s matter most. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the list that would most benefit from this kind of doctrine would be a Possessed Bomb. Anything else would be less efficient. So great if you're footslogging large units that charge across the board to tear into opponents, but far less great for any other kind of list.

(For the record, I don't know if superdoctrines will apply to Cultists / Mutants / Cult troops. I'm assuming not.)

Feel free to explain why I'm wrong, would love to hear. But my take is the superdoctrines are structured for an army more like Primaris Marines and offer far fewer benefits to CSM based on the units we actually have.


Inclined to agree, the added ap on doctrines is the main attraction a lot of the time, people balance around and for ap-1 on a bolter (as seen in other threads) which makes them a big pillow fisted here, given the points for the 2nd wound you'll actually have lower bolter shot output than before anyway.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/30 11:32:27


 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 blood reaper wrote:
40k fans and GW apologists legit have the most bizarre and spiteful mindsets around.


Not any less bizarre and spiteful than those who spend their entire pastime posting toxic posts about a game they hate instead of simply walking away from it.

I present you, the the most misquoted part of all 40k lore:
Genetor Lukas Anzion in Codex Orks, 3rd edition wrote:[...] To the Ork, the only conceivable explanation for this is that the vehicle travels faster because it is red. However, as disturbing as it sounds, these 'facts' become true. Red Ork vehicles do travel perceptibly faster than those of other colors, even when all other design aspects are nominally the same. Similarly, many captured Ork weapons and items of equipment should not work, and indeed do not work unless wielded by an Ork. I believe this is linked to the strong psychic aura surrounding all Orkoids and have developed the Anzion Theorem of Orkoid Mechamorphic Resonant Kinetics. I theorise that many Ork inventions work because the Orks themselves think that they should work. The strong telekinetic abilities of the Ork's subconscious somehow ensures that the machinery or weaponry functions as desired.

This is literally all GW ever wrote on this topic - everything else is meme knowledge 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Jidmah wrote:
 blood reaper wrote:
40k fans and GW apologists legit have the most bizarre and spiteful mindsets around.


Not any less bizarre and spiteful than those who spend their entire pastime posting toxic posts about a game they hate instead of simply walking away from it.

No negative thoughts. Positive outlook only!
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




 techsoldaten wrote:
The Massacre doctrine gives exploding 6s to Rapid Fire / Assault / Pistol weapons. It applies turn 2 and possibly 3. Bolters, Sonic Blasters, Plasma Guns, Melta Guns, and their pistol / combi variants are the guns that benefit from this doctrine. While Plasma / Melta guns are certainly great, the only unit we have that can take more than 2 are Chosen. We don't have equivalent units to Plasma Intercessors, who all carry a Plasma Gun. And unlike Bolt Carbines, with 30" range, we have to get to 24" / 12" to shoot. This doesn't benefit us the same way it would a Loyalist army because of the lack of weapons specialization, and it won't apply to as many models based on range.

(For the record, I don't know if superdoctrines will apply to Cultists / Mutants / Cult troops. I'm assuming not.)

Feel free to explain why I'm wrong, would love to hear. But my take is the superdoctrines are structured for an army more like Primaris Marines and offer far fewer benefits to CSM based on the units we actually have.
Bold underline by me.

For the record it appears that you are including Cult troops since they are the only troops allowed to have Sonic Blasters AFAIK.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Tampa,FL USA

The leaks say Noise Marines are still in unlike the other Cults.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/30 14:58:35


You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in gb
Barpharanges







 Jidmah wrote:
 blood reaper wrote:
40k fans and GW apologists legit have the most bizarre and spiteful mindsets around.


Not any less bizarre and spiteful than those who spend their entire pastime posting toxic posts about a game they hate instead of simply walking away from it.


I can imagine your conception of 'toxic posting' is a very colourful and broad one.

Thomas Ligotti wrote:"If you do not feel good enough for long enough, you should act as if you do and even think as if you do... So start pretending that you feel good enough for long enough, stop your complaining, and get back in line."

 
   
Made in fi
5th God of Chaos (O'rly?)





 Platuan4th wrote:
The leaks say Noise Marines are still in unlike the other Cults.


Makes sense seeing codex:ec is likely couple years off still.

2022 painted/bought: 307/419 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 techsoldaten wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
Disheartened is a good way to put it.

Doctrines were novel and unique when they were introduced to the game. Giving CSM getting a tweaked version makes sense from the standpoint of symmetry, but it doesn't recognize the fact they are a fundamentally different faction that fights differently.

It's not a big problem, just a missed opportunity.
I do feel it is a big problem, because it speaks to how fundamentally misaligned the design team is with what the community wants.

Yeah, giving CSM "Spiky Doctrines" is both incredibly uncreative, and not what many CSM players would want. They might be ok mechanically, but thematically, they're a complete miss IMO. Especially when compared to what the other Chaos factions released so far have, like Death Guard, Thousand Sons, and Chaos Knights.


Another question worth considering: will these superdoctrines make much of a difference for CSM armies?

Coming from the standpoint CSM generally field mid-range shooting, melee oriented lists. While the new Codex might introduce some new and unique playstyles, our unit selection is differs from Loyalist options in terms of weapon selection, range of shooting, and presence on the board. When you consider each doctrine on it's own, it seems like they're only situationally beneficial and only for certain lists.

The Destruction doctrine gives exploding 6s to heavy / grenade / rapid fire weapons. It applies turn 1. So Obliterators, Havocs, Helbrutes, Forgefiends, Predators, Land Raiders and Lord of Skulls can benefit from it. But Obliterators generally start in reserve, Forgefiends don't have great range, and Preds / LRs / LoS don't appear in too many lists. So this doctrine really only matters for lists with Havocs and Helbrutes, and it's only for one turn. Even so, things like Lascannons and Missile Launchers are single shot, you don't have a huge pool of dice to throw.

The Massacre doctrine gives exploding 6s to Rapid Fire / Assault / Pistol weapons. It applies turn 2 and possibly 3. Bolters, Sonic Blasters, Plasma Guns, Melta Guns, and their pistol / combi variants are the guns that benefit from this doctrine. While Plasma / Melta guns are certainly great, the only unit we have that can take more than 2 are Chosen. We don't have equivalent units to Plasma Intercessors, who all carry a Plasma Gun. And unlike Bolt Carbines, with 30" range, we have to get to 24" / 12" to shoot. This doesn't benefit us the same way it would a Loyalist army because of the lack of weapons specialization, and it won't apply to as many models based on range.

The Slaughter doctrine gives exploding 6s to pistol / melee / assault attacks. It applies from turn 3 / 4 on. Various HQs, CSMs, Chosen, Possessed, melee Obliterators, Maulerfiends, melee Helbrutes, and Venomcrawlers will see the most benefit, they will have the large pools of dice that make exploding 6s matter most. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the list that would most benefit from this kind of doctrine would be a Possessed Bomb. Anything else would be less efficient. So great if you're footslogging large units that charge across the board to tear into opponents, but far less great for any other kind of list.

(For the record, I don't know if superdoctrines will apply to Cultists / Mutants / Cult troops. I'm assuming not.)

Feel free to explain why I'm wrong, would love to hear. But my take is the superdoctrines are structured for an army more like Primaris Marines and offer far fewer benefits to CSM based on the units we actually have.




I'm not going to argue that you're wrong. It does seem like they've taken something that fits better for loyalists and just added a random element because "Chaos". Like I said, it's uncreative, and doesn't fit the faction. You're analysis just adds to that. I guess we can still hope that this is just a "placeholder" rule for the playtest doc, but right now it's all we've got, unfortunately.
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:

Another question worth considering: will these superdoctrines make much of a difference for CSM armies?

Coming from the standpoint CSM generally field mid-range shooting, melee oriented lists. While the new Codex might introduce some new and unique playstyles, our unit selection is differs from Loyalist options in terms of weapon selection, range of shooting, and presence on the board. When you consider each doctrine on it's own, it seems like they're only situationally beneficial and only for certain lists.

The Destruction doctrine gives exploding 6s to heavy / grenade / rapid fire weapons. It applies turn 1. So Obliterators, Havocs, Helbrutes, Forgefiends, Predators, Land Raiders and Lord of Skulls can benefit from it. But Obliterators generally start in reserve, Forgefiends don't have great range, and Preds / LRs / LoS don't appear in too many lists. So this doctrine really only matters for lists with Havocs and Helbrutes, and it's only for one turn. Even so, things like Lascannons and Missile Launchers are single shot, you don't have a huge pool of dice to throw.

The Massacre doctrine gives exploding 6s to Rapid Fire / Assault / Pistol weapons. It applies turn 2 and possibly 3. Bolters, Sonic Blasters, Plasma Guns, Melta Guns, and their pistol / combi variants are the guns that benefit from this doctrine. While Plasma / Melta guns are certainly great, the only unit we have that can take more than 2 are Chosen. We don't have equivalent units to Plasma Intercessors, who all carry a Plasma Gun. And unlike Bolt Carbines, with 30" range, we have to get to 24" / 12" to shoot. This doesn't benefit us the same way it would a Loyalist army because of the lack of weapons specialization, and it won't apply to as many models based on range.

The Slaughter doctrine gives exploding 6s to pistol / melee / assault attacks. It applies from turn 3 / 4 on. Various HQs, CSMs, Chosen, Possessed, melee Obliterators, Maulerfiends, melee Helbrutes, and Venomcrawlers will see the most benefit, they will have the large pools of dice that make exploding 6s matter most. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the list that would most benefit from this kind of doctrine would be a Possessed Bomb. Anything else would be less efficient. So great if you're footslogging large units that charge across the board to tear into opponents, but far less great for any other kind of list.

(For the record, I don't know if superdoctrines will apply to Cultists / Mutants / Cult troops. I'm assuming not.)

Feel free to explain why I'm wrong, would love to hear. But my take is the superdoctrines are structured for an army more like Primaris Marines and offer far fewer benefits to CSM based on the units we actually have.

I'm not going to argue that you're wrong. It does seem like they've taken something that fits better for loyalists and just added a random element because "Chaos". Like I said, it's uncreative, and doesn't fit the faction. You're analysis just adds to that. I guess we can still hope that this is just a "placeholder" rule for the playtest doc, but right now it's all we've got, unfortunately.

The point of playtesting is to reveal parts of the game that need improvement.

We can hope it worked!


   
 
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