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Platuan4th wrote: The leaks say Noise Marines are still in unlike the other Cults.
They may be in the book, but the techsoldaten theorising being responded to stated it was under the assumption that superdoctrines wouldn't apply to Cult troops, with no proviso to exclude Noise Marines from the "Cult troops" label.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Another question worth considering: will these superdoctrines make much of a difference for CSM armies?
Coming from the standpoint CSM generally field mid-range shooting, melee oriented lists. While the new Codex might introduce some new and unique playstyles, our unit selection is differs from Loyalist options in terms of weapon selection, range of shooting, and presence on the board. When you consider each doctrine on it's own, it seems like they're only situationally beneficial and only for certain lists.
The Destruction doctrine gives exploding 6s to heavy / grenade / rapid fire weapons. It applies turn 1. So Obliterators, Havocs, Helbrutes, Forgefiends, Predators, Land Raiders and Lord of Skulls can benefit from it. But Obliterators generally start in reserve, Forgefiends don't have great range, and Preds / LRs / LoS don't appear in too many lists. So this doctrine really only matters for lists with Havocs and Helbrutes, and it's only for one turn. Even so, things like Lascannons and Missile Launchers are single shot, you don't have a huge pool of dice to throw.
The Massacre doctrine gives exploding 6s to Rapid Fire / Assault / Pistol weapons. It applies turn 2 and possibly 3. Bolters, Sonic Blasters, Plasma Guns, Melta Guns, and their pistol / combi variants are the guns that benefit from this doctrine. While Plasma / Melta guns are certainly great, the only unit we have that can take more than 2 are Chosen. We don't have equivalent units to Plasma Intercessors, who all carry a Plasma Gun. And unlike Bolt Carbines, with 30" range, we have to get to 24" / 12" to shoot. This doesn't benefit us the same way it would a Loyalist army because of the lack of weapons specialization, and it won't apply to as many models based on range.
The Slaughter doctrine gives exploding 6s to pistol / melee / assault attacks. It applies from turn 3 / 4 on. Various HQs, CSMs, Chosen, Possessed, melee Obliterators, Maulerfiends, melee Helbrutes, and Venomcrawlers will see the most benefit, they will have the large pools of dice that make exploding 6s matter most. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the list that would most benefit from this kind of doctrine would be a Possessed Bomb. Anything else would be less efficient. So great if you're footslogging large units that charge across the board to tear into opponents, but far less great for any other kind of list.
(For the record, I don't know if superdoctrines will apply to Cultists / Mutants / Cult troops. I'm assuming not.)
Feel free to explain why I'm wrong, would love to hear. But my take is the superdoctrines are structured for an army more like Primaris Marines and offer far fewer benefits to CSM based on the units we actually have.
I'm not going to argue that you're wrong. It does seem like they've taken something that fits better for loyalists and just added a random element because "Chaos". Like I said, it's uncreative, and doesn't fit the faction. You're analysis just adds to that. I guess we can still hope that this is just a "placeholder" rule for the playtest doc, but right now it's all we've got, unfortunately.
The point of playtesting is to reveal parts of the game that need improvement.
We can hope it worked!
Hope's the word !
Btw, chosen are now limited to combi-melta/plasma.
Another question worth considering: will these superdoctrines make much of a difference for CSM armies?
Coming from the standpoint CSM generally field mid-range shooting, melee oriented lists. While the new Codex might introduce some new and unique playstyles, our unit selection is differs from Loyalist options in terms of weapon selection, range of shooting, and presence on the board. When you consider each doctrine on it's own, it seems like they're only situationally beneficial and only for certain lists.
The Destruction doctrine gives exploding 6s to heavy / grenade / rapid fire weapons. It applies turn 1. So Obliterators, Havocs, Helbrutes, Forgefiends, Predators, Land Raiders and Lord of Skulls can benefit from it. But Obliterators generally start in reserve, Forgefiends don't have great range, and Preds / LRs / LoS don't appear in too many lists. So this doctrine really only matters for lists with Havocs and Helbrutes, and it's only for one turn. Even so, things like Lascannons and Missile Launchers are single shot, you don't have a huge pool of dice to throw.
The Massacre doctrine gives exploding 6s to Rapid Fire / Assault / Pistol weapons. It applies turn 2 and possibly 3. Bolters, Sonic Blasters, Plasma Guns, Melta Guns, and their pistol / combi variants are the guns that benefit from this doctrine. While Plasma / Melta guns are certainly great, the only unit we have that can take more than 2 are Chosen. We don't have equivalent units to Plasma Intercessors, who all carry a Plasma Gun. And unlike Bolt Carbines, with 30" range, we have to get to 24" / 12" to shoot. This doesn't benefit us the same way it would a Loyalist army because of the lack of weapons specialization, and it won't apply to as many models based on range.
The Slaughter doctrine gives exploding 6s to pistol / melee / assault attacks. It applies from turn 3 / 4 on. Various HQs, CSMs, Chosen, Possessed, melee Obliterators, Maulerfiends, melee Helbrutes, and Venomcrawlers will see the most benefit, they will have the large pools of dice that make exploding 6s matter most. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the list that would most benefit from this kind of doctrine would be a Possessed Bomb. Anything else would be less efficient. So great if you're footslogging large units that charge across the board to tear into opponents, but far less great for any other kind of list.
(For the record, I don't know if superdoctrines will apply to Cultists / Mutants / Cult troops. I'm assuming not.)
Feel free to explain why I'm wrong, would love to hear. But my take is the superdoctrines are structured for an army more like Primaris Marines and offer far fewer benefits to CSM based on the units we actually have.
I'm not going to argue that you're wrong. It does seem like they've taken something that fits better for loyalists and just added a random element because "Chaos". Like I said, it's uncreative, and doesn't fit the faction. You're analysis just adds to that. I guess we can still hope that this is just a "placeholder" rule for the playtest doc, but right now it's all we've got, unfortunately.
The point of playtesting is to reveal parts of the game that need improvement.
We can hope it worked!
Yes, we can. Which is why I keep trying to remind people that these leaked rules are coming from an old playtest doc, which seems to not even include some new units we've seen so far (the "Cultist Warband" and Traitor Guardsmen).
One thing I'm somewhat worried about is just how much of the core CSM book world eaters will be locked out of. I have a LOT of daemon engines, havocs, and standard bolter legionaires. I don't want to have to repaint too many.
Just run them as Renegades when the notoriously strict and organized Gods of Chaos enact their restrictions.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
cole1114 wrote: So with the confirmation Kratos can be taken in 40k, I wonder if they'll end up as HS or LOW.
I'm hoping for HS, mostly because I'm already planning on buying two anyway.
It's as big as a Spartan, so probably a LoW. And it'll have Martial Legacy.
Aaaannddd.........how much do you want to bet they give it to loyalists, but not Chaos?
I think a funnier GW-ism will be the Kratos being available to both SM and CSM, but not having martial legacy. Remember, you must always shift course midway through an edition.
cole1114 wrote: So with the confirmation Kratos can be taken in 40k, I wonder if they'll end up as HS or LOW.
I'm hoping for HS, mostly because I'm already planning on buying two anyway.
It's as big as a Spartan, so probably a LoW. And it'll have Martial Legacy.
Aaaannddd.........how much do you want to bet they give it to loyalists, but not Chaos?
I think a funnier GW-ism will be the Kratos being available to both SM and CSM, but not having martial legacy. Remember, you must always shift course midway through an edition.
I would be 100% happy with all plastic HH stuff losing martial legacy.
Doctrines were novel and unique when they were introduced to the game. Giving CSM getting a tweaked version makes sense from the standpoint of symmetry, but it doesn't recognize the fact they are a fundamentally different faction that fights differently.
It's not a big problem, just a missed opportunity.
I do feel it is a big problem, because it speaks to how fundamentally misaligned the design team is with what the community wants.
Yeah, giving CSM "Spiky Doctrines" is both incredibly uncreative, and not what many CSM players would want. They might be ok mechanically, but thematically, they're a complete miss IMO. Especially when compared to what the other Chaos factions released so far have, like Death Guard, Thousand Sons, and Chaos Knights.
Another question worth considering: will these superdoctrines make much of a difference for CSM armies?
Coming from the standpoint CSM generally field mid-range shooting, melee oriented lists. While the new Codex might introduce some new and unique playstyles, our unit selection is differs from Loyalist options in terms of weapon selection, range of shooting, and presence on the board. When you consider each doctrine on it's own, it seems like they're only situationally beneficial and only for certain lists.
The Destruction doctrine gives exploding 6s to heavy / grenade / rapid fire weapons. It applies turn 1. So Obliterators, Havocs, Helbrutes, Forgefiends, Predators, Land Raiders and Lord of Skulls can benefit from it. But Obliterators generally start in reserve, Forgefiends don't have great range, and Preds / LRs / LoS don't appear in too many lists. So this doctrine really only matters for lists with Havocs and Helbrutes, and it's only for one turn. Even so, things like Lascannons and Missile Launchers are single shot, you don't have a huge pool of dice to throw.
The Massacre doctrine gives exploding 6s to Rapid Fire / Assault / Pistol weapons. It applies turn 2 and possibly 3. Bolters, Sonic Blasters, Plasma Guns, Melta Guns, and their pistol / combi variants are the guns that benefit from this doctrine. While Plasma / Melta guns are certainly great, the only unit we have that can take more than 2 are Chosen. We don't have equivalent units to Plasma Intercessors, who all carry a Plasma Gun. And unlike Bolt Carbines, with 30" range, we have to get to 24" / 12" to shoot. This doesn't benefit us the same way it would a Loyalist army because of the lack of weapons specialization, and it won't apply to as many models based on range.
The Slaughter doctrine gives exploding 6s to pistol / melee / assault attacks. It applies from turn 3 / 4 on. Various HQs, CSMs, Chosen, Possessed, melee Obliterators, Maulerfiends, melee Helbrutes, and Venomcrawlers will see the most benefit, they will have the large pools of dice that make exploding 6s matter most. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the list that would most benefit from this kind of doctrine would be a Possessed Bomb. Anything else would be less efficient. So great if you're footslogging large units that charge across the board to tear into opponents, but far less great for any other kind of list.
(For the record, I don't know if superdoctrines will apply to Cultists / Mutants / Cult troops. I'm assuming not.)
Feel free to explain why I'm wrong, would love to hear. But my take is the superdoctrines are structured for an army more like Primaris Marines and offer far fewer benefits to CSM based on the units we actually have.
I think you are undervaluing the extra power Massacre gives bolters. Bolters are free and plentiful, exploding 6s are basically +1 to hit (but with side benefits such as can stack with another +1 to hit). Army wide +1 to hit on your bolters turn 2/3 seems solid.
Slaughter also seems a very solid boost for the same reasons.
The one unit you've not mentioned in your post - Terminators. 4 Bolter shots each, something like 3/4/5 attacks each, base profile S5 AP3 D1. The loyalist version costs 38 points with storm bolter and power fist. Terminators seem to have the classic 9th ed terminator strat to get +1 to hit, which means you'll often be turning 40 dice rolls to hit in shooting/melee into 40 hits on average with a CP and the right doctrine.
I'm still gloomy about the likelihood of the codex matching up to Nids/Eldar/Tau but 30 Terminators or 30 Possessed are possible things you'll see being used. They could still turn out on the level of Knights where the layered rules start to add up as you get to the 3rd or 4th layer and the doctrines are one part of that.
cole1114 wrote: So with the confirmation Kratos can be taken in 40k, I wonder if they'll end up as HS or LOW.
I'm hoping for HS, mostly because I'm already planning on buying two anyway.
It's as big as a Spartan, so probably a LoW. And it'll have Martial Legacy.
Aaaannddd.........how much do you want to bet they give it to loyalists, but not Chaos?
I think a funnier GW-ism will be the Kratos being available to both SM and CSM, but not having martial legacy. Remember, you must always shift course midway through an edition.
Heh. I wouldn't put it past them, if nothing else than to sell more of the new models. But it would take some creative gymnastics to justify why this heretofore unseen HH pattern vehicle was suddenly more plentiful than the previously known ones, and on both sides. Did both Mars and Xana II suddenly discover unused stockpiles of them at the same time?
(Of course they could just completely bypass making any fluff justification at all.)
cole1114 wrote:I would be 100% happy with all plastic HH stuff losing martial legacy.
StarHunter25 wrote: One thing I'm somewhat worried about is just how much of the core CSM book world eaters will be locked out of. I have a LOT of daemon engines, havocs, and standard bolter legionaires. I don't want to have to repaint too many.
If Thousand Sons or Death Guard are anything to go by... its a very valid concern.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
StarHunter25 wrote: One thing I'm somewhat worried about is just how much of the core CSM book world eaters will be locked out of. I have a LOT of daemon engines, havocs, and standard bolter legionaires. I don't want to have to repaint too many.
If Thousand Sons or Death Guard are anything to go by... its a very valid concern.
Noooooo you don't understand they need to be stripped of units like Obliterators and Raptors if you wanna be fluffy, otherwise you're just a power gamer!
Doctrines were novel and unique when they were introduced to the game. Giving CSM getting a tweaked version makes sense from the standpoint of symmetry, but it doesn't recognize the fact they are a fundamentally different faction that fights differently.
It's not a big problem, just a missed opportunity.
I do feel it is a big problem, because it speaks to how fundamentally misaligned the design team is with what the community wants.
Yeah, giving CSM "Spiky Doctrines" is both incredibly uncreative, and not what many CSM players would want. They might be ok mechanically, but thematically, they're a complete miss IMO. Especially when compared to what the other Chaos factions released so far have, like Death Guard, Thousand Sons, and Chaos Knights.
Another question worth considering: will these superdoctrines make much of a difference for CSM armies?
Coming from the standpoint CSM generally field mid-range shooting, melee oriented lists. While the new Codex might introduce some new and unique playstyles, our unit selection is differs from Loyalist options in terms of weapon selection, range of shooting, and presence on the board. When you consider each doctrine on it's own, it seems like they're only situationally beneficial and only for certain lists.
The Destruction doctrine gives exploding 6s to heavy / grenade / rapid fire weapons. It applies turn 1. So Obliterators, Havocs, Helbrutes, Forgefiends, Predators, Land Raiders and Lord of Skulls can benefit from it. But Obliterators generally start in reserve, Forgefiends don't have great range, and Preds / LRs / LoS don't appear in too many lists. So this doctrine really only matters for lists with Havocs and Helbrutes, and it's only for one turn. Even so, things like Lascannons and Missile Launchers are single shot, you don't have a huge pool of dice to throw.
The Massacre doctrine gives exploding 6s to Rapid Fire / Assault / Pistol weapons. It applies turn 2 and possibly 3. Bolters, Sonic Blasters, Plasma Guns, Melta Guns, and their pistol / combi variants are the guns that benefit from this doctrine. While Plasma / Melta guns are certainly great, the only unit we have that can take more than 2 are Chosen. We don't have equivalent units to Plasma Intercessors, who all carry a Plasma Gun. And unlike Bolt Carbines, with 30" range, we have to get to 24" / 12" to shoot. This doesn't benefit us the same way it would a Loyalist army because of the lack of weapons specialization, and it won't apply to as many models based on range.
The Slaughter doctrine gives exploding 6s to pistol / melee / assault attacks. It applies from turn 3 / 4 on. Various HQs, CSMs, Chosen, Possessed, melee Obliterators, Maulerfiends, melee Helbrutes, and Venomcrawlers will see the most benefit, they will have the large pools of dice that make exploding 6s matter most. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the list that would most benefit from this kind of doctrine would be a Possessed Bomb. Anything else would be less efficient. So great if you're footslogging large units that charge across the board to tear into opponents, but far less great for any other kind of list.
(For the record, I don't know if superdoctrines will apply to Cultists / Mutants / Cult troops. I'm assuming not.)
Feel free to explain why I'm wrong, would love to hear. But my take is the superdoctrines are structured for an army more like Primaris Marines and offer far fewer benefits to CSM based on the units we actually have.
I think you are undervaluing the extra power Massacre gives bolters. Bolters are free and plentiful, exploding 6s are basically +1 to hit (but with side benefits such as can stack with another +1 to hit). Army wide +1 to hit on your bolters turn 2/3 seems solid.
Slaughter also seems a very solid boost for the same reasons.
The one unit you've not mentioned in your post - Terminators. 4 Bolter shots each, something like 3/4/5 attacks each, base profile S5 AP3 D1. The loyalist version costs 38 points with storm bolter and power fist. Terminators seem to have the classic 9th ed terminator strat to get +1 to hit, which means you'll often be turning 40 dice rolls to hit in shooting/melee into 40 hits on average with a CP and the right doctrine.
I'm still gloomy about the likelihood of the codex matching up to Nids/Eldar/Tau but 30 Terminators or 30 Possessed are possible things you'll see being used. They could still turn out on the level of Knights where the layered rules start to add up as you get to the 3rd or 4th layer and the doctrines are one part of that.
It is less impactful than Bolt Rifles going from AP-1 to AP-2 against Marines.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Platuan4th wrote: The leaks say Noise Marines are still in unlike the other Cults.
They may be in the book, but the techsoldaten theorising being responded to stated it was under the assumption that superdoctrines wouldn't apply to Cult troops, with no proviso to exclude Noise Marines from the "Cult troops" label.
Since Noise Marines are troops for the Emperor's Children, it would be incredibly debilitating for that army for Noise to not get superdoctrines. Personally, I hate the idea of Cult Marines in general losing them, as it's an unfair restriction and doesn't make sense. A Word Bearer Plague Marine is still a word Bearer, a Berserker Iron Warrior is still an Iron Warrior, an Alpha Legion Rubric Marines is still an Alpha Legionnaire, etc. They don't just forget how to do their Legion's stuff.
StarHunter25 wrote: One thing I'm somewhat worried about is just how much of the core CSM book world eaters will be locked out of. I have a LOT of daemon engines, havocs, and standard bolter legionaires. I don't want to have to repaint too many.
I know our WE player is currently selling everything that isn't a berzerker, Kharn, a rhino, rand raider or a spawn.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
StarHunter25 wrote: One thing I'm somewhat worried about is just how much of the core CSM book world eaters will be locked out of. I have a LOT of daemon engines, havocs, and standard bolter legionaires. I don't want to have to repaint too many.
If Thousand Sons or Death Guard are anything to go by... its a very valid concern.
Noooooo you don't understand they need to be stripped of units like Obliterators and Raptors if you wanna be fluffy, otherwise you're just a power gamer!
It's more that if you want them to be a stand alone unique army with their own fluff units, you need to shake some stuff off to establish the identity, otherwise you end up with chaos marines +1 all the time. Which sounds a little power gamery if you want all the stuff from 1 faction, plus new bespoke stuff on top to make more optimised combos.
Dudeface wrote: It's more that if you want them to be a stand alone unique army with their own fluff units, you need to shake some stuff off to establish the identity, otherwise you end up with chaos marines +1 all the time. Which sounds a little power gamery if you want all the stuff from 1 faction, plus new bespoke stuff on top to make more optimised combos.
I agree, but if some units already fit the legions very well, they should keep them. For example, WE not getting access to the maulerfiend would be just as weird as DG not getting access to obliterators was.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
I partly wonder if the delay was to print heresy stuff in the codex if it can indeed be taken? Would be nice not to have a day -whatever pdf of extras
Automatically Appended Next Post: Good news! Free mini of the month is a Chaos Marine, given that we're likely not getting the release out this month and they've now given away chaos marines and cultists already, they'll have to give away free rhinos or something next month I guess?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/31 13:08:26
Dudeface wrote: It's more that if you want them to be a stand alone unique army with their own fluff units, you need to shake some stuff off to establish the identity, otherwise you end up with chaos marines +1 all the time. Which sounds a little power gamery if you want all the stuff from 1 faction, plus new bespoke stuff on top to make more optimised combos.
I agree, but if some units already fit the legions very well, they should keep them. For example, WE not getting access to the maulerfiend would be just as weird as DG not getting access to obliterators was.
Yeah, the dudes that deal in viruses not having access to a unit that exists as the result of a virus is a bit weird.
Personally, I expect World Eaters to get access to Slaughterbruters, which aren't daemon engines (or for that matter daemons), but its something. Defilers seem to be a shoe-in (based on DG and TS) alongside Land Raiders and Rhinos. Predators and demolishers are less clear - DG don't get them but TS do. Venomcrawlers seem a no-go (not even TSons get them), I would be surprised if they gave WE Maulerfiends but not Forgefiends, so they'll probably get both or neither. Helbrute seems a given, Heldrake is up in the air (pun fully intended). Berserker troops, a bespoke elite terminator unit, and a dedicated chaff unit of some sort (Khorngors, blood pact militia, etc.) plus some HQ/character types seem to be the bare minimum of what they will get for unique units, plus daemon primarch angron. Oh and the big bloodwhatever daemon engine lord of war, almost certainly will make the cut to the codex.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/31 13:13:17
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
Dudeface wrote: It's more that if you want them to be a stand alone unique army with their own fluff units, you need to shake some stuff off to establish the identity, otherwise you end up with chaos marines +1 all the time. Which sounds a little power gamery if you want all the stuff from 1 faction, plus new bespoke stuff on top to make more optimised combos.
I agree, but if some units already fit the legions very well, they should keep them. For example, WE not getting access to the maulerfiend would be just as weird as DG not getting access to obliterators was.
Yeah, the dudes that deal in viruses not having access to a unit that exists as the result of a virus is a bit weird.
Personally, I expect World Eaters to get access to Slaughterbruters, which aren't daemon engines (or for that matter daemons), but its something. Defilers seem to be a shoe-in (based on DG and TS) alongside Land Raiders and Rhinos. Predators and demolishers are less clear - DG don't get them but TS do. Venomcrawlers seem a no-go (not even TSons get them), I would be surprised if they gave WE Maulerfiends but not Forgefiends, so they'll probably get both or neither. Helbrute seems a given, Heldrake is up in the air (pun fully intended). Berserker troops, a bespoke elite terminator unit, and a dedicated chaff unit of some sort (Khorngors, blood pact militia, etc.) plus some HQ/character types seem to be the bare minimum of what they will get for unique units, plus daemon primarch angron. Oh and the big bloodwhatever daemon engine lord of war, almost certainly will make the cut to the codex.
As per the heresy novels the first obliterator was a khorne blessed iron warrior was it not? I know other fluff has mortarion having a hand in the technovirus but it's not a product of the deathguard. Likewise the DG codex McGuffins the blight hauler into existence as a more loyal obliterator replacement iirc?
Volk was an Iron Warriors officer sacrificed by Perturabo to the Daemon that inhabited the Forge World of Sarum. Volk himself was not Khorne aligned, the Daemon Sa'ra'am was Khornate and claimed to have been born when the first weapon made to kill another mortal was crafted. It, however, was not a pawn of its master as its binding to Sarum had allowed its freedom from the Great Game. It possessed Volk who then became the first Obliterator.
Dudeface wrote: I partly wonder if the delay was to print heresy stuff in the codex if it can indeed be taken? Would be nice not to have a day -whatever pdf of extras
If they do actually do that, here's hoping that they restore some of their more "Chaos" oriented rules and equipment. Having Chaos units being just the same as loyalist units but "spiky" is rather boring.
Dudeface wrote: I partly wonder if the delay was to print heresy stuff in the codex if it can indeed be taken? Would be nice not to have a day -whatever pdf of extras
If they do actually do that, here's hoping that they restore some of their more "Chaos" oriented rules and equipment. Having Chaos units being just the same as loyalist units but "spiky" is rather boring.
Unfortunately GW's approach seems to be, we only sell HH models without Chaos mutations, so we only write rules that are loyalist vehicles with Chaos keyword. If it wasn't for sales and the Chaos Community I think they'd even prefer to not have Chaos rules at all because there's no "Chaos Contemptor" (TM) for sale.
Dudeface wrote: I partly wonder if the delay was to print heresy stuff in the codex if it can indeed be taken? Would be nice not to have a day -whatever pdf of extras
If they do actually do that, here's hoping that they restore some of their more "Chaos" oriented rules and equipment. Having Chaos units being just the same as loyalist units but "spiky" is rather boring.
Unfortunately GW's approach seems to be, we only sell HH models without Chaos mutations, so we only write rules that are loyalist vehicles with Chaos keyword. If it wasn't for sales and the Chaos Community I think they'd even prefer to not have Chaos rules at all because there's no "Chaos Contemptor" (TM) for sale.
Eh, I'm still putting down the copy-paste job that they did for all of the Chaos "relic" units as a matter of expediency and reduced effort, not malice. They have no problem telling Chaos Knights players to use loyalists kits for some of their units, with their own unique "Chaos" rules. As for them not selling a "Chaos Contemptor": have they never seen the Night Lords Contemptor? Or the Word Bearers Possessed Contemptor (sorry, I forget the actual name).
Dudeface wrote: It's more that if you want them to be a stand alone unique army with their own fluff units, you need to shake some stuff off to establish the identity, otherwise you end up with chaos marines +1 all the time. Which sounds a little power gamery if you want all the stuff from 1 faction, plus new bespoke stuff on top to make more optimised combos.
I agree, but if some units already fit the legions very well, they should keep them. For example, WE not getting access to the maulerfiend would be just as weird as DG not getting access to obliterators was.
Yeah, the dudes that deal in viruses not having access to a unit that exists as the result of a virus is a bit weird.
Personally, I expect World Eaters to get access to Slaughterbruters, which aren't daemon engines (or for that matter daemons), but its something. Defilers seem to be a shoe-in (based on DG and TS) alongside Land Raiders and Rhinos. Predators and demolishers are less clear - DG don't get them but TS do. Venomcrawlers seem a no-go (not even TSons get them), I would be surprised if they gave WE Maulerfiends but not Forgefiends, so they'll probably get both or neither. Helbrute seems a given, Heldrake is up in the air (pun fully intended). Berserker troops, a bespoke elite terminator unit, and a dedicated chaff unit of some sort (Khorngors, blood pact militia, etc.) plus some HQ/character types seem to be the bare minimum of what they will get for unique units, plus daemon primarch angron. Oh and the big bloodwhatever daemon engine lord of war, almost certainly will make the cut to the codex.
As per the heresy novels the first obliterator was a khorne blessed iron warrior was it not? I know other fluff has mortarion having a hand in the technovirus but it's not a product of the deathguard. Likewise the DG codex McGuffins the blight hauler into existence as a more loyal obliterator replacement iirc?
My understanding is that the obliterator technovirus was developed by Mortarion and Perturabo in the Eye of Terror following the heresy. Volk may have been the first Obliterator, but until the development of the technovirus the creation of new obliterators was basically random and the result of daemonic possession of those who obsessed over their weapons and equipment too much, etc. basically being damned over time. With the technovirus they were able to "mass produce" obliterators and could weaponize the virus to produce them en masse. Unless that fluff gets retconned out of existence, Mortarions involvement, to me, would justify their inclusion in DG armies.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
StarHunter25 wrote: One thing I'm somewhat worried about is just how much of the core CSM book world eaters will be locked out of. I have a LOT of daemon engines, havocs, and standard bolter legionaires. I don't want to have to repaint too many.
If Thousand Sons or Death Guard are anything to go by... its a very valid concern.
Noooooo you don't understand they need to be stripped of units like Obliterators and Raptors if you wanna be fluffy, otherwise you're just a power gamer!
It's more that if you want them to be a stand alone unique army with their own fluff units, you need to shake some stuff off to establish the identity, otherwise you end up with chaos marines +1 all the time. Which sounds a little power gamery if you want all the stuff from 1 faction, plus new bespoke stuff on top to make more optimised combos.
StarHunter25 wrote: One thing I'm somewhat worried about is just how much of the core CSM book world eaters will be locked out of. I have a LOT of daemon engines, havocs, and standard bolter legionaires. I don't want to have to repaint too many.
If Thousand Sons or Death Guard are anything to go by... its a very valid concern.
Noooooo you don't understand they need to be stripped of units like Obliterators and Raptors if you wanna be fluffy, otherwise you're just a power gamer!
It's more that if you want them to be a stand alone unique army with their own fluff units, you need to shake some stuff off to establish the identity, otherwise you end up with chaos marines +1 all the time. Which sounds a little power gamery if you want all the stuff from 1 faction, plus new bespoke stuff on top to make more optimised combos.
They didn't NEED to be stand alone codices at all
In that case they also don't NEED stand alone kits either.
Dudeface wrote: It's more that if you want them to be a stand alone unique army with their own fluff units, you need to shake some stuff off to establish the identity, otherwise you end up with chaos marines +1 all the time. Which sounds a little power gamery if you want all the stuff from 1 faction, plus new bespoke stuff on top to make more optimised combos.
I agree, but if some units already fit the legions very well, they should keep them. For example, WE not getting access to the maulerfiend would be just as weird as DG not getting access to obliterators was.
Yeah, the dudes that deal in viruses not having access to a unit that exists as the result of a virus is a bit weird.
Personally, I expect World Eaters to get access to Slaughterbruters, which aren't daemon engines (or for that matter daemons), but its something. Defilers seem to be a shoe-in (based on DG and TS) alongside Land Raiders and Rhinos. Predators and demolishers are less clear - DG don't get them but TS do. Venomcrawlers seem a no-go (not even TSons get them), I would be surprised if they gave WE Maulerfiends but not Forgefiends, so they'll probably get both or neither. Helbrute seems a given, Heldrake is up in the air (pun fully intended). Berserker troops, a bespoke elite terminator unit, and a dedicated chaff unit of some sort (Khorngors, blood pact militia, etc.) plus some HQ/character types seem to be the bare minimum of what they will get for unique units, plus daemon primarch angron. Oh and the big bloodwhatever daemon engine lord of war, almost certainly will make the cut to the codex.
As per the heresy novels the first obliterator was a khorne blessed iron warrior was it not? I know other fluff has mortarion having a hand in the technovirus but it's not a product of the deathguard. Likewise the DG codex McGuffins the blight hauler into existence as a more loyal obliterator replacement iirc?
My understanding is that the obliterator technovirus was developed by Mortarion and Perturabo in the Eye of Terror following the heresy. Volk may have been the first Obliterator, but until the development of the technovirus the creation of new obliterators was basically random and the result of daemonic possession of those who obsessed over their weapons and equipment too much, etc. basically being damned over time. With the technovirus they were able to "mass produce" obliterators and could weaponize the virus to produce them en masse. Unless that fluff gets retconned out of existence, Mortarions involvement, to me, would justify their inclusion in DG armies.
I can understand both sides of this one, I honestly think they took them out purely to push the hauler. To be honest though, their fluff is so cross functional and confused that they've crossed a few threads now.
Following the same logic the PBC is essentially just an arquitor with a shield, so should chaos marines get the PBC?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/31 16:41:09
Why only the plastic ones?
