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Digging around again:
http://shumakersocialmedia.com/2014/11/12/crowdfunding-disclaimers-arent-adequate-to-avoid-liability-under-u-s-securities-laws/
Nice quote here:

"Reward-based crowdfunding, through sites such as Kickstarter, continues to be available to United States persons (at least at present) because contributors are not viewed as making an investment. Crowdfunding for equity investments, even though contemplated by the JOBS Act, remains unavailable..."

What is said here is that if it truly was investing KS would have been shut down due to falling afoul of investment regulations.
I have to go hunt down again the BBB letter I got from Kevin crowing it is not product but an "investment".
Sorry guy, that hole is well plugged.

Ah! new documents from my fine Canadian government:
https://www.lautorite.qc.ca/files/pdf/reglementation/valeurs-mobilieres/45-108/2015-11-05/2015nov05-45-108-ig-final-acvm-en.pdf
"Liability for untrue statement – non-reporting issuers
10. The crowdfunding offering document required to be filed by an issuer that is not a reporting issuer must contain a contractual right of action against the issuer for rescission and damages that is available to the purchaser if the crowdfunding offering document or other permitted materials made available to the purchaser contains an untrue statement of a material fact.

So can I nail them for delivery date?
Though most of this seems concerned with "securities".

Anyway I will continue my research Tsunami to see if I can find anything a bit more straightforward in nailing PB.

Hang in there you all, it has been great therapy...

 Talizvar wrote:
Digging around again:
http://shumakersocialmedia.com/2014/11/12/crowdfunding-disclaimers-arent-adequate-to-avoid-liability-under-u-s-securities-laws/
Nice quote here:

"Reward-based crowdfunding, through sites such as Kickstarter, continues to be available to United States persons (at least at present) because contributors are not viewed as making an investment. Crowdfunding for equity investments, even though contemplated by the JOBS Act, remains unavailable..."

What is said here is that if it truly was investing KS would have been shut down due to falling afoul of investment regulations.
I have to go hunt down again the BBB letter I got from Kevin crowing it is not product but an "investment".
Sorry guy, that hole is well plugged.

Ah! new documents from my fine Canadian government:
https://www.lautorite.qc.ca/files/pdf/reglementation/valeurs-mobilieres/45-108/2015-11-05/2015nov05-45-108-ig-final-acvm-en.pdf
"Liability for untrue statement – non-reporting issuers
10. The crowdfunding offering document required to be filed by an issuer that is not a reporting issuer must contain a contractual right of action against the issuer for rescission and damages that is available to the purchaser if the crowdfunding offering document or other permitted materials made available to the purchaser contains an untrue statement of a material fact.

So can I nail them for delivery date?
Though most of this seems concerned with "securities".

Anyway I will continue my research Tsunami to see if I can find anything a bit more straightforward in nailing PB.

Hang in there you all, it has been great therapy...

There are also laws against seeking out of state investments under Michigan law.

Got a response from PB to my refund request.

got another response from Chuck:

Every time I open this subforum, I am surprised at just how much this thread has grown compared to the others. I didn't think there was really so much going on with RTT these days to warrant so much discussion, but apparently I underestimated the involvement level of some fans.

I'm still hoping for wave two, but failing that the high drama of a legal tsunami would be more than adequate compensation.

I too look forward to when Wave 2 meets Legal tsunami, people thought Sharknado sucked, they ain't seen nothing yet.

While i would agree that expecting anything from Kickstarter outside of the most egregious "take the money and run" projects is a foolish at best, you do have many of the same complaint avenues against them as well.

And you have another potential resource as well- the CFPB.
The CFPB has a complaint process, has responsibility over financial products (which RRT may not be, but Kickstarter itself is) and has been expanding their reach and throwing their weight around like an 800 pound gorilla

I have had a different thought that might appease some of the RRT backers out there.

We have been shown the futility of asking PB for a refund. So maybe we ought to change tack and contact Bethesda instead.

Maybe after hearing what we have been through, they would be sympathetic enough to our cause to put PB's offices in one of their flagship series?

Who wouldn't like to see PB in "Fallout 5: The Final Excuse" ?

I have a suspicion that if this project is completed at all, it's going to be in PVC resin. They'll sell it as a move to reduce part count, but it's just a cost saving measure because of the loss of detail(not that their APB plastic models held that much detail to begin with).

It's possible that HG isn't OK with that move. I think if it was just about the backers they would have just blown the usual amount of smoke up our orifices and called it the bestest most genius innovation ever in the history of miniature gaming.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Every time I open this subforum, I am surprised at just how much this thread has grown compared to the others. I didn't think there was really so much going on with RTT these days to warrant so much discussion, but apparently I underestimated the involvement level of some fans.
I'm still hoping for wave two, but failing that the high drama of a legal tsunami would be more than adequate compensation.

I think of this little problem like one of those puzzles you are just on the edge of figuring out (or think you are).
It is only a puzzle but you cannot leave it alone.

The models remaining to be done for Wave2 are iconic, they add that final bit of variety to the game to make it interesting.

PB seems to be blissfully unaware of how badly they messed up having these models absent so long.

I am a big fan of stomping robots and Robotech was pretty much my first exposure as a kid and still holds an interest.

All PB had to say is "We are working on it." and we are pretty much doomed.
Those simple words as demonstrated by those turkeys could mean "never", "when we feel like it", "In 10 years time." or "In a year's time.".

As an added interest keeper: they have our money and we do not have all the rewards promised us so like most sane people we are wondering when that will happen.

Most SANE companies like to preserve reputation, keep customers happy and in general like to keep a good record.
Palladium Books appears to have no such worry, they seem to think "this too shall pass" and we will forgive and forget and water under the bridge and all that.
It is hard to digest this kind of insanity so we keep thinking if we poke them the same as any company something will happen... nope.

So yeah, a big hammer like the law seems to be the only reality adjustment they understand but they get a wee bit confused when it Is used on them and not the other way around.
So now I hang my hat on the hope the "legal tsunami" actually happens because I am sure this is the only forum that will get truth out of them and not the unicorns and rainbows Kevin likes to throw around.

So, throwing caution (and my phone bill) to the wind, I called PB last night. Ended up having a half hour chat with Chuck, in which I calmly and clearly laid out my critiques of how they are handling things.

He was patient and agreed with many of my points, but there wasn't much to say beyond the usual party line (it's being worked on behind the scenes, more to show in weeks to come, etc)

While I remained polite, I didn't let the conversation drift complacently either (as an example, pointed out that them working 30 hours a day, 8 days a week was indistinguishable from doing nothing if they couldn't show progress across entire weeks and months). I pointed out that the old weekly updates contrasted poorly with the new months of silence, and that having watched wave one go by for a year, it was quite hard to give benefit of the doubt to these new shifting targets when we weren't seeing the same lead up (declarations of molds being milled, 3D printed prototypes, etc).

That if their silence is based on backer reaction (I noted that compared to "Spartangate", the reaction to the February showcase was generally positively with some suggestions) wasn't helping, and that letting the unpleasable 5 or 10% keep them from sharing info with the more reasonable 90% was counter productive. I pointedly noted Wayne's failure to provide the info he said he would 5 months ago.

Upon hearing that I'd sent an email in October that was never responded to, he went and found it, saying he'd print it off and bring it to the next meeting. I even outright identified myself as one of the critical voices, who was simply calling because after sending emails and KS comments and KS messages and FB comments and Forum comments, I had decided to finally move to another method of reaching out.

So overall it was a fine conversation and I felt I was heard, but at least when chatting with Chuck there wasn't really anything more than we get in the weekly updates; hopeful for the future, working super hard, etc, etc.

Whether or not anything comes of it, I pointedly told them my thoughts and critiques.

It's really sad that someone needs to tell a professional that saying "We're working on it" for 6 months with no visible progress is unacceptable and looks bad to the outside observer.

 Forar wrote:
I even outright identified myself as one of the critical voices, who was simply calling because after sending emails and KS comments and KS messages and FB comments and Forum comments, I had decided to finally move to another method of reaching out.

So overall it was a fine conversation and I felt I was heard, but at least when chatting with Chuck there wasn't really anything more than we get in the weekly updates; hopeful for the future, working super hard, etc, etc.

Whether or not anything comes of it, I pointedly told them my thoughts and critiques.

I did the same thing back in the summer the week after the "restart" of the coversation with backers. I talked with Alex for about 45 minutes and the conversation progressed pretty much the same way. He was pleasant, understanding, and reasonable but communicated nothing of note beyond the company line. Obviously, nothing further came from that reaching out during the "restart" in the half year since regardless of the metric used (product released, communication, attitude, etc). I'd even go so far as to say that the situation has WORSENED since the "restart" as Palladium got a slap on the wrist for spamming adverts as supposed updates and in revenge just largely stopped updating officially almost completely. I suspect you know your chance of success is rated at Kobiayashi Maru levels but figured I'd add this to the conversation and (if my hunch is correct) establish a pattern of ignoring this type of reasonable communication as well.

 Forar wrote:
So, throwing caution (and my phone bill) to the wind, I called PB last night. Ended up having a half hour chat with Chuck, in which I calmly and clearly laid out my critiques of how they are handling things.

Don't have one of those unlimited talk and text cell phone deals ?

 warboss wrote:
I did the same thing back in the summer the week after the "restart" of the coversation with backers. I talked with Alex for about 45 minutes and the conversation progressed pretty much the same way. He was pleasant, understanding, and reasonable but communicated nothing of note beyond the company line. Obviously, nothing further came from that reaching out during the "restart" in the half year since regardless of the metric used (product released, communication, attitude, etc). I'd even go so far as to say that the situation has WORSENED since the "restart" as Palladium got a slap on the wrist for spamming adverts as supposed updates and in revenge just largely stopped updating officially almost completely. I suspect you know your chance of success is rated at Kobiayashi Maru levels but figured I'd add this to the conversation and (if my hunch is correct) establish a pattern of ignoring this type of reasonable communication as well.

Oh, absolutely, it was partially just to actually do something I've been pondering for some time now, partially to finally put an end to the "oh you just have to call them" bs that keeps getting thrown around. Though I'm sure someone will say "oh but you just have to call them and get Wayne or Kevin" to which I say "feth that, I'm not chasing them on the phone to get the perfect storm of availability". We've mocked "call them up" as a source for info for years now, because of that exact reason; their hours do not necessarily coincide with my hours, so people keep saying to call, I did, and whatever does or doesn't come of it, it wasn't much more informative than a weekly update, though not necessarily through any fault of Chuck's.

Asterios wrote:
Don't have one of those unlimited talk and text cell phone deals ?

I'm Canadian. I'm sure such a thing exists, but given that I call the US maybe twice a year (for non-business reasons), I have no reason to get one. Especially since my data plan is the much more valuable part of the package, and changing my phone plan would involve losing that and paying 70% more per month for what I get.

 Forar wrote:

Asterios wrote:
Don't have one of those unlimited talk and text cell phone deals ?

I'm Canadian. I'm sure such a thing exists, but given that I call the US maybe twice a year (for non-business reasons), I have no reason to get one. Especially since my data plan is the much more valuable part of the package, and changing my phone plan would involve losing that and paying 70% more per month for what I get.

oh saw the US Flag and kept thinking your in US.

You didn't notice it everytime he posts aboot Robotech, eh?

Huh, guess the work system registers from the US still.

Read somewhere on Dakka that this is a known issue and that I can ask a Mod to permanently affix my location, haven't gotten around to it.

To be fair, my location has been "Toronto, Ontario" for literally years, and I definitely used to show up under my proper Maple Leaf. :-(

...and your Canadianhood has been referred to, like, a jillion times.

Also that.

I think word leaked back to Ottawa that Forar was being increasingly less polite and not apologizing for anything and everything when he talked to PB. Ergo, his Canadian citizenship was revoked. The law of Canananadia is very harsh in these matters; if you're going to be even mildly rude, you clearly belong in the US.

Every time I read up on this thread it does make me feel bad for the FLGS around here. Two of the ones I get things at somewhat regularly both have RTT starter boxes and a handful of expansions on the shelves, where they've been for quite a while now. They are asking full retail though, which is part of why they're not really likely to move anytime soon. Thinking back to my interest in the KS I sometimes idly ponder getting the destroids, then I remember this thread and move along without lifting the box.

I asked my FLGS owner if anyone had expressed interest in the game while I was trying (unsuccessfully) to rustle up a game. He said not really but he, as an owner, was curious if he should pick up a copy of the starter and boosters since he also remembered me excitedly stumping for the game in store during the kickstarter. I told him that the follow up products were no where in sight, the manufacturer support ranged from insulting to very poor, and to not bother beyond getting maybe a pack or two max of the destroids for the battletech group that played regularly every two weeks to use as unseen.

 Talizvar wrote:

Most SANE companies like to preserve reputation, keep customers happy and in general like to keep a good record.
Palladium Books appears to have no such worry, they seem to think "this too shall pass" and we will forgive and forget and water under the bridge and all that.
It is hard to digest this kind of insanity so we keep thinking if we poke them the same as any company something will happen... nope.

But this was the sort of behavior they exhibited before the KS.

Pretty remarkable that Kevin received money to continue Palladium after the gross mismanagement leading to the Crisis of Treachery.

 warboss wrote:
I asked my FLGS owner if anyone had expressed interest in the game while I was trying (unsuccessfully) to rustle up a game. He said not really but he, as an owner, was curious if he should pick up a copy of the starter and boosters since he also remembered me excitedly stumping for the game in store during the kickstarter. I told him that the follow up products were no where in sight, the manufacturer support ranged from insulting to very poor, and to not bother beyond getting maybe a pack or two max of the destroids for the battletech group that played regularly every two weeks to use as unseen.

Sad thing about that, is that in my opinion, the new versions of the unseen are leaps and bounds better in visual aesthetics. So this will likely dry up as well, since I am not alone in this view.

Sometimes I wonder, if you took out the people who backed this for BT minis, how many backers would be left?

Me!!! I wanted a consistent set of minis for gaks & grins playing.

Looking on the PB forums I saw reference to a 'zero incident' which seems to be referring to a person. Does anyone know what that was about?

I only backed to get the models. Not to play in BT, but just as models at a size and scale I still stand some chance of being able to make and paint. So I am one of the 'lost' so far as PB would be concerned. If they had not had a pledge level that allowed people to just pick up a few specific models I would not have pledged.

Was never interested in the game, don't have rose-tinted specs so far as PB are concerned, but also didn't know how bad they truly were. All my previous PB products were picked up here in the UK once they were already on sale so I had no idea how long they had been in development or on sale in the US.

And John, it's all Gaks & Grins until PB Grins and Gaks .. on you!

evilsmurf wrote:
Looking on the PB forums I saw reference to a 'zero incident' which seems to be referring to a person. Does anyone know what that was about?

Short answer, he was a backer that called up Palladium, March 18th 2014, and depending on who's side you believe, either verbally abused, or was abused verbally by, Palladium staff. As is usual, the truth is probably somewhere in between. Zero did not come across as particularly credible IMO, but I have doubts that the conversation went exactly as Wayne, who handled the internet communication (Jeff handled the initial phonecall) says it did.

You can read the back and forth starting here and scrolling up.

I find it funny that it's easily found as since that interaction, the Palladium Books account has only made three more comments. While not prolific, they did swing through the comments occasionally, but since the Zero incident, it's been three relatively unhelpful responses.

The Crisis of Treachery

The Zero Incident

At least they can come with cool names for these things!