Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

My friend has three Wraithlords and they are very hard to kill, I play both an IG and CSM army. Suggestions would be helpful, thank you.

With an IG army lascannons are probably your best bet. Wound on a 3+, no save.

Wraithlords are pathetically easy to kill. With only a 3+ save, no invulnerable, nearly impossible to find cover for them, and only 3 wounds, a decent amount of lascannons will down them in one turn. Two vendettas firing at a wraithlord, for example, have a very good chance of downing it in a single turn.

Guardian
with guard you should be running 10+ lascannons. just zap them. use your orders to twin link or make him reroll cover depending on the situation. they really shouldnt be much of a threat.

with chaos your best bet will be obliterators, deep striking terminators loaded out with combi plasma or melta guns, and lascannon weilding havocs. if the terminators have a few power fists they can shoot 1 wraith guard and kill a 2nd maybe a 3rd in close combat. wraith guard are a little more threatening to a chaos player but you still have good tools.
AF

willydstyle wrote:Wraithlords are pathetically easy to kill. With no invulnerable, and only 3 wounds

This.

The same firepower required to take down a tac squad will also take down a wraithlord. The only caveat is that they don't care so much about artillery. Bring it down plasma, rough riders, lots of lascannons. Heck, even SNIPER weapons stand a decent chance against them, being basically the only thing that they actually work as advertised against.

All you need to do is to bring real firepower and not rely on stupid stuff like grenade launchers and PIS autocannons.

All of the above has Guard covered. On the CSM front, get anything with a Powerfist into close combat with it. It only has 2 attacks, so it will very rarely kill more than 1 model a turn. If nothing else, you'll tie it up for the rest of the game.

Oh, also psykers.

A single librarian force weapon will bring a wraithlord to a halt real fast. Likewise, if you roll a 10 for lightning arc with a primaris psyker you'll nearly kill it with a single force lightning attack. That, or given how cheap primaris psykers are, two shouldn't have too much of a problem taking one down per turn, assuming you hide them in a blob or something.

Ailaros wrote:Oh, also psykers.

A single librarian force weapon will bring a wraithlord to a halt real fast.

Except that the Librarian is only S4, and can't harm T8, unless you give him Might of the Ancients in which case he has to roll a 6 to wound. Blood Angels have an easier time with that, as they have the Sanguine Sword (which makes them S10). However either of those options swings at the same time as the Wraithlord and will be instant-deathed almost every time; in the best case scenario you're trading your Epistolary for a Wraithlord, but if you're not BA you won't even be that lucky.

WL are not pathetically easy to kill. I feel that they should either have a moderate invuln built in (5++), or an option for a substantial invuln (4++) for extra points.

That is really besides the point though, I would like to see a lot of things in the next Eldar codex, but I have to wait and see what happens. I doubt I will be disappointed, but waiting kind of sucks. Moving on.

We'll call an IG HWS 100 points, ignoring the cost of orders. TL-BS3 shots have 75% accuracy, but you only have 3 shots, so you end up with 2 hits and the insignificant chance to get the 3rd. With 2 hits you get one solid wound, and an insignificant chance to get a second. That averages out to a little less than 1.5 wounds all told, meaning that you can take out a WL over the course of 2 turns. If that WL gets a cover save (not incredibly likely, as it is no less than one of the tallest units in the game) you are reduced to taking the WL over the course of 4 turns.

9 LC can take out 3 WL over the course of two turns, or four turns when dealing with cover saves. As having cover saves on 3 WL for the majority of the game, is exceedingly unlikely, you are talking about taking out 3 WL with 9 TL-LC shots over the course of 3 turns, or thereabouts. Pathetic is not exactly what I would call a WL, no matter what problems I may have with them right now.

PF are a great way to take out a WL, but you do have to be careful. Try to use cheaper units like ASM to snag the WL in combat, early to mid-game. WL would love the chance to try to smash multi-wound IC's into tiny little pieces, so you should avoid giving them that chance. WL are slow, make sure you treat them that way by using fast units to neutralize them, or cheap units to counter them. Fast units will be more reliable, as cheap units tend to be a pretty good target for the WL to slap around with flamers.

2 flamers and RRs to hit on a 3-wound T8 MC... for cheap. Don't let them fool you, they can be better than the average MC on their toughness alone. If your LCs just poop out on you, it could leave you with no way to deal with the potential damage a WL can cause. If you have to, just tie them down in combat, avoiding flamers on the way in. There aren't a great deal of cheap units that can actually get around flamers, and you will need something that has a lot of bodies in a squad. I am not even sure IG or CSM really have any units that could tarpit effectively. BA ASM can break WL in two, you just need to make sure the sarge has a PF, so you can wound the tough bastard on a 3+.

Most heavy tanks, Leman's for example, are also damaged on a 4+/3+, have no extra wounds, and can actually be damaged on a 2+/insta-damage in many cases. There isn't a direct comparison, but for Eldar WL are the heavy tanks. Holofields are not a replacement for AV14, neither are energy fields. WL can almost act like a heavy tank in some situations, but they have both advantages and disadvantages that separate them from a heavy tank in terms of use.

Railgun...

cheapbuster wrote:Railgun...

QFT I took out 3 Wraithlords in the first round of 'ard boys. first two died intsa pwning from broadsides, and the 3rd one died from a 3 unit Fish of Furry gutting.

You threw around 1000-1250 points of your army at 3 WL, and you're acting surprised that you managed to take them down?

Odd, I always thought that throwing nearly half of your army at 15-25% of your opponents would produce results. That doesn't strike me as surprising.

Using 3 tanks and 3 squads to take down one unit was the funny part. I can't even imagine how you didn't lose every single squad in reprisal. Was this WL backed up by absolutely nothing? Sure as hell seemed to have wasted a a huge amount of your firepower, which is one of their cooler abilities. S5 weapons, extra points spent on markerlights or no, are definitely not a good way to take down a WL. If the WL had even one wound left, it could have walked up and flamed around 10-15 models, firing indirectly, followed up by a devastating assault on a tank.

1000-1250 points vs. 300-450 depending on the WL gear. Do the math, that was a very expensive way to take them down, and seemingly a great way to draw a crap-ton of firepower from your small arms.

No one is doubting a squad of broadsides ability to shoot things in the face. No doubt, they do a good job of it. Unfortunately for every other army besides Tau, broadsides are in very, very short supply. Wait... can IG and CSM take railguns now? WHY WASN'T I INFORMED.

As you note wrexasaur, what you're not actually looking for is to "kill" the wraithlord, but to "neutralize" it. Killing it is only one means to that end. throwing a 20-man blob with a commissar at it and tying it up for the rest of the game is another.

Also, yeah, lascannons are a rather expensive way to handle wraithguard slowly, which is why I wouldn't necessarily recommand it.

a 4x plasma CCS with BiD and a nearby 3x plasma SWS (or a 4x plasma PCS), stands a pretty decent change of taking it down in a single round of shooting.

Also, not to beat the warhorse drum again, but a squad of rough riders can put a couple of wounds on one, and, if you didn't manage to ding it before you charged in, still allows you to tarpit it for a turn or 2.

Thank you for the help everyone


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Since LC are point heavy would missile launchers work as well if they fired krak missiles. No save and 4+ to wound is still pretty good right?

RedGuardian73 wrote:Since LC are point heavy would missile launchers work as well if they fired krak missiles. No save and 4+ to wound is still pretty good right?

It isn't bad, but you have to remember that the largest portion of nearly all of a squads cost, comes from the unit itself, and not the weaponry. While you are saving like 15% on weapons, the squads which cost 60-70% of the total price, are putting out around 15% less damage. SO... you may be saving points, and it may be a waste of time depending on where you spend the points instead. LCs take down WL over the course of full turns, MLs take out WL over the course of turns plus a fraction. You risk needing a third or fourth turn where you could simply rely on stable odds. Kill it sooner rather than later, and avoid being forced to waste shots from other units, or prolonged shooting, to save 15% on points cost, for the same in the loss of reliability.

That small savings is only effecting the small part of your army that is focused on ranged anti-tank. Your shifting cost from one unit to another, for very little in return, if any return at all. I would argue that the risk is really not worth it, and MLs perform admirably against most transports. If you don't expect wave serpents AND WL, MLs are basically at a noticable disadvantage to LCs against WL alone.

Ailaros wrote:As you note wrexasaur, what you're not actually looking for is to "kill" the wraithlord, but to "neutralize" it. Killing it is only one means to that end. throwing a 20-man blob with a commissar at it and tying it up for the rest of the game is another.

Also, yeah, lascannons are a rather expensive way to handle wraithguard slowly, which is why I wouldn't necessarily recommand it.

a 4x plasma CCS with BiD and a nearby 3x plasma SWS (or a 4x plasma PCS), stands a pretty decent change of taking it down in a single round of shooting.

Also, not to beat the warhorse drum again, but a squad of rough riders can put a couple of wounds on one, and, if you didn't manage to ding it before you charged in, still allows you to tarpit it for a turn or 2.

While a large squad of bang-stick horsemen can do a decent job of cleaning up the last wound or some such thing, they generally fail at doing much anything else. S5 is just not good enough against T8, really, it just doesn't cut it on it's own.

With WS3, RR are at risk of serious 'getting hit backness'. 10 RR hit with 21 attacks first, landing about 10 hits, giving them the chance to deliver 2 wounds before the WL hits. The WL hits back delivering 2 wounds in return, tying the combat, and gaining a shield from shooting in the next turn. You basically just saved the WL from getting dropped by a ranged weapon.

With one wound left, and the WL within range to use flamers and/or assault the next turn, tossing a squad of RR at it is not a bad idea. Now, where RR are awesome is the fact that they are cavalry. I would think that taking two small squads would have benefits that outweigh the extra KP you gain by it. 11 S5 attacks are cheap enough to throw away, while 21-22 S5 attack benefit greatly from having as much flexibility as possible, namely by being present in the form of two squads. Try 6-man squads if you want them to be able to drop a wound reliably onto T8, still cheap as heck. 5-6 man squads are pretty easy to hide in BLOS until you need them, 10-man squads not so much, and they are best left in reserve most of the time.

11 attacks is less than you need to get a reliable wound, but it also provides the ability for the squad to fold under the WLs attacks, opening it up to firepower the next turn. It really comes down to the specifics of a situation, but in general, having the ability to actually lose combat can often be considered a good thing. A blob will easily lock down a WL for 2-3 turns, if not more, so they seem to be the better option overall. The problem is getting that squad into combat before getting hit by flamers, and that will be very hard w/o FoF.

I am really not convinced that IG has a great tarpit unit when it comes to WL. They can do pretty well against T6 MCs, especially the ones w/o cover ignoring template weaponry. S3 can also put wounds onto T6 every so often, so they seem better suited for standard MCs as it is.

Another option is ratlings, but they are even less effective than LC-HWS's point for point. Don't rely on one type of weapon, but LC are a decent place to start.

Wrex
I agree with you about the wraith lord needing an invuln save or something. He's pretty hard to get in cover and toughness 8 just doesnt protect. Back when they had star cannons and 3 attacks a piece they were good. Now not so much.
AF

WL are very easy to counter in CC for most armies. Wraithguard... are absolute garbage in CC. Really, really bad. I have found that they are so easy to neutralize/counter through assault, it is really hard to justify taking them over FD. They are not completely interchangeable, but it certainly appears to be a solid 'two sides of the same coin' thing. Really powerful short range guns on fragile models, or really powerful short range guns on 'tough' models. The problem is that WG aren't actually much harder to kill... at all. The only real difference is that WG easily provide an assault shield against shooting, when you throw stuff into combat with them. FD will fold in combat to just about anything, IMO making them that much better.

There is one or two places I feel it makes sense to use WG. Neither of those roles are a big problem to fill in other ways, and using WG as troops is dumb IMO. Great, a 10-man squad of bumbling idiots with pretty cool guns that you may never be able to fire, as they are stuck on foot. Fearless... bumbling idiots, I'm sorry.

I know this is OT, but Wraithbone should be better, both in terms of the fluff, and the points cost of the damn things. The main problem really isn't with the WL, even though I feel as with most things Eldar, it is just slightly overpriced. When everything is slightly overpriced (basically, that is the biggest problem with Eldar, besides outdated rules), you get a slightly underpowered army.

What I would REALLY love to see, is assault WL/WG. Give WG access to something along the lines of assault Teq gear, an invlun (4++) plus PWs for 3 attacks a piece on the charge. Give the WL access to something similar (4++/Wraithsword) for a points cost. As far as I am concerned, that would be a very good fix for Wraith units in general.

The WL is NOT weak, I just want to be 100% clear about my opinion on this. There are just too many ways to counter them, and it is quite difficult to use them offensively. They are hard to fit into an Eldar army w/o making them mobile gun platforms, and expensive ones at that. Wraithsight increases their cost at a very significant rate, between 5-20% or more, depending on how you work your list. Saying that Wraithsight doesn't pose enough of a problem is completely foolish, and ending up with auto-hit stationary targets in important situations should be more than enough to see why that is. 3+ armor and relatively high T-value, is not enough of a reason to force them into needing a Psyker nearby.

Simply having a Farseer and at least 3 Warlocks on the table should stop Wraithsight from happening at all. Forget the psyker range thing, it really isn't a fair to Wraith units.

Wraithlords can still fill a role, but it's not an ideal one. Still, it works better for Eldar than most. Making your opponent move where you want them to and taking advantage of that with superior mobility is how my dual-WL/mech list recently won a series tournament.

Admittedly, after they fixed the third round scores I had come 9th.



Powerfists hurt, but this is not for your guard. If you have a squad of Berserkers with a power fist, I'd comfortably throw them at a threatening Wraithlord. Charging is important though - you'll need the extra attacks for a chance at your 6's-to-wound slipping through.

36 S5 attacks -> 24 hits -> 4 wounds > hopefully 1 failed save
4 power fist attacks > 2-3 hits > 1-2 wounds > no saves!

There is always space for variation but even if the Powerfist needs to swing for a second round, he's almost guaranteed to still be around to take it.

In previous editions where you could allocate attacks, Wraithlords were the bomb. Power fists didn't work, because the Wraithlord would just step on them before sorting out the rest who likely didn't stand a chance in the Eye of even chipping the paintwork. Nowadays I try to stay away from them. This, of course, is why you wouldn't take an IC with a power fist up against a WL, because he can still allocate his instant-killing power attacks to the character.

Lascannons, as said before, are your friend, although with my mech hybrid build you had to prioritise a bit more. Vendettas covered with lascannons are dirt cheap and provide you with a bit of mobility that can really help you against Eldar.

POISONED ATTACKS - ratlings? I don't know the current IG codex very well, but sniper rifles were always one of the classic ways to do it. Wrex is suggesting that they're inefficient so that's fair enough. I use ratlings in combination with PBS for guaranteed pinning, so I know I usually have them in my list anyway. My two wraithlords were absolutely curb-stomped in my first game against the new 'Nids, due to the gaunts with a million poisoned attacks.

I agree that roughriders are NOT your best bet. In my opinion they are for counterattacking your opponent's spearhead and usually dying horribly if they somehow fail, but WLs are just too tough, and horrible death is almost guaranteed. On the other hand, WLs also have less attacks than they used to making them dangerous when applied properly, but generally less useful in winning combats.

You can't ignore 3 wraithlords, but keeping away from them until you're ready is key. Just make sure your opponent isn't fencing you in. They're his dukes. Get rid of 'em or get around 'em, and punch the elf-gits in the face.

Be careful of this lists based on this core though:

Farseer with fortune and full warlock unit
Avatar
3 Wraithlords with EMLs
Wraithguard
guardians with EMLs to fill

It's a bit rude.

I see them being lowered down to Toughness 6 so Marines can punch them to death >_>

Don't forget about wraithsight. If you kill the nearby guardian squad, those three wraithlords decide that it's more fun to pick flowers...

Warboss Gutrip wrote:Don't forget about wraithsight. If you kill the nearby guardian squad, those three wraithlords decide that it's more fun to pick flowers...

but only on a , so I wouldn't really on it.

Plasma weapons, multimeltas and lascannons are great ranged weapons aganist Wraithlords. Otherwise, a power fist is enough to kill it, that is if you want to go into an assault

n0t_u wrote:I see them being lowered down to Toughness 6 so Marines can punch them to death >_>

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

Warboss Gutrip wrote:Don't forget about wraithsight. If you kill the nearby guardian squad, those three wraithlords decide that it's more fun to pick flowers...

Seriously, it is just a really noticeable risk to get WS on one of 3 WL over the course of 2 turns. Over the course of 6 turns they all turn into flower-picking pansies at least once.

You NEED a psyker around at all times, because it is just as easy to roll a 6 as any other number on that dice. It is one dice, and as small as the threat may seem, the dice doesn't care what you think.

Democharges seem to work well on them too i've found out

You'd have to sling atleast 3 Democharges, which means a commitment of atleast 95 points for a Special Weapons squad, but the logistics problems with trying to get a 6" man squad of Guardsmen within 6" of a long ranged weapons platform is mind blogging, especially against Eldar. How'd you do it?

Statistically you need closer to 9 demo charges probably. Demo charges are used best, like all blast weapons, against tightly-clumped infantry units. Hunting an MC that you only wound on a 4, and can only possibly get one hit against, with demo charges is pretty stupid.

willydstyle wrote:Statistically you need closer to 9 demo charges probably. Demo charges are used best, like all blast weapons, against tightly-clumped infantry units. Hunting an MC that you only wound on a 4, and can only possibly get one hit against, with demo charges is pretty stupid.

Nah man, if the Wraithlord is using a standard 60mm base, each blast can scatter three inches and still be touching the base. With BS3 that gives him about 66% accuracy. So you're looking at 4 Democharges so long as all of them wound, which they should.

Still, 4 Democharges requires the commitment of multiple squads. It'd be easier just to use a Lascannon battery.

A demo charge is str 8, and a WL is T8, so assuming 2/3 hit (your math), and 1/2 wound, I'm still getting 9 demo charges needed to drop a wraithlord.

Edit: Vendettas are best, but LC/PG blobs with Bring it Down work well too.

Really? I could have sworn it was S10. But, as I look it up, you're correct. Given that they're only single shot weapons and you can only have 2 Special Weapons Squads... odds aren't good.

Quit bringing up stupid statistics , they dont mean anything when you're actually playing. 40k is a game of luck and rock paper scissor tactics. There is a chance that you could hit all three of them and pass all the wounds, killing them all.

As to the question of how to get a demo charge close enough to the WL, Guardsman Marbo has a democharge so getting close to them is no problem, supposeing he survives he aslo has a 2+ poison sword and sniper pistol, so he can kill WL no problem. The hope is that any WL marbo doesn't kill he can take in melee since Marbo has a WS of 5 and the WL have only 3 or 4? so it should be harder to hit him, and easier to hit them. If he gets hit then he will die supposing he doesn't make armor saves or if the WL has a power weapon, but the hope is that the 65 point piece can kill a few 100 point pieces. theorettically even killing one is worth it.

theres a chance but you have to base your play on whats likely to happen, not what might happen