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Maybe I'm being a bit dumb here but I don't get the point of Singing Spears. Same as Witch Blades so wound on 2+ and S9 against vehicles, but 2 handed so cannot gain extra attack and only count as an AP 6 shuriken pistol when thrown. Why bother when warlocks & farseers already have a SP? Are we to presume its S9 against vehicles when thrown too?

I do believe that yes, it is s9 against vehicles when thrown as well.

If im not mistaken witchblades are also two handed. They are S9 when thrown. So for 3 points you gain a S9 ranged weapon, They are very worth it

Witchblades are not twp handed. By upgrading to a spear you gain a shooting attack but loose a CC attack. There are both advantages and disadvantages here.

And being assault, means you basically get two chances. Throw the spear at s9, assault the vehicle at s9 as well.

Yep.

Throw it as a ranged shot at S9 v armour.
Use it in cc at S9 v armour (v handy against most vehicles in cc as A10 is an easy pen with S9.)

Thanks for clarifying guys, interesting tactical choice between having the ranged attack or extra cc attack. What's ur take on Eldrads staff, count as S9 against vehicles too?

The general rule of thumb I follow is, if the farseer is on foot, with either banshees or dire avengers, he will be better served with a witchblade. Banshees, Avengers, and Storm Guardians, the usual suspects that a foot farseer hangs out (and he will rarely leave his wave serpent) with will rarely if ever toss his spear at a vehicle. Further that extra attack in cc against vehicles may save your squad from a dread, or kans with alittle luck.

In a gu bike squad, always take the singing spear. You get jump shoot jump, as well as 2 cannons and good movement. Also bikes should never be in melee with anything. In this case, there will often be occasions where you are shooting into the rear armor of a tank, and the spear will be helpful. If you have both a farseer and a warlock in the squad thats upwards of 2 spears.

In a jetlock council it becomes a more interesting choice. I'd probably run a few spears (maybe 3) to try and pop a transport. then assault the contents if need be. But warlock squads need all the attacks they can get, and singing spears definitly do not help fill that role.

rubicant99 wrote:Thanks for clarifying guys, interesting tactical choice between having the ranged attack or extra cc attack. What's ur take on Eldrads staff, count as S9 against vehicles too?

Eldrad's Staff does not count a S9 vs vehicles, only what it says it does.

Yeah eldrad's staff is just a singing spear without the throw or s9 and with a fancy psychic boost.

Eldrad's staff won't roll S9 against vehicles but you can still use his Witchblade. That's the only reason I can think of off the top of my head why he would carry one at all.

Mattieau wrote:Yeah eldrad's staff is just a singing spear without the throw or s9 and with a fancy psychic boost.

Its not a singing spear. The staff does different things.

As you have two unique weapons, choose whether to use his witchblade or staff in combat, you cannot combine the effects of both.

Xenith wrote:

Mattieau wrote:Yeah eldrad's staff is just a singing spear without the throw or s9 and with a fancy psychic boost.

Its not a singing spear. The staff does different things.

As you have two unique weapons, choose whether to use his witchblade or staff in combat, you cannot combine the effects of both.

This sadly also means he will never get the 2 CCW bonus. :(

Gwar! wrote:

Xenith wrote:

Mattieau wrote:Yeah eldrad's staff is just a singing spear without the throw or s9 and with a fancy psychic boost.

Its not a singing spear. The staff does different things.

As you have two unique weapons, choose whether to use his witchblade or staff in combat, you cannot combine the effects of both.

This sadly also means he will never get the 2 CCW bonus. :(

Really gwar, you have to open that can of worms?

BlueDagger wrote:Really gwar, you have to open that can of worms?

There is not worm!

But to stay on topic: Yes, Eldrad can use his Witchblade against Vehicles and carve them into Spiced Pork And Ham.

Gwar! wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:Really gwar, you have to open that can of worms?

There is not worm!

But to stay on topic: Yes, Eldrad can use his Witchblade against Vehicles and carve them into Spiced Pork And Ham.

Pretty sure Gwar's right, it's not a can of worms at all, Eldrad's staff is two handed IIRC and so you wouldn't get the bonus anyway.

It's not two handed and Gwar knows exactly how much of a can of worms that it. How many threads have we had on models with 3+ weapons?

I was under the assumption that Eldrad's witchblade counts as double handed since the rules don't specifically state that it's single handed. Am I missing something here?

the rules don't specify how many hands a ccw or a Power weapon take either; in fact few if any weapons specify how many hands they take to use.

Also a note, in many of the codecii that do have specific handedness(is that even a word?) the models still bear those weapons one-handed so you really cannot go by what the models look like. Case in Point a Thunder Hammer from Daemon Hunters or Saint Celestine's Blessed Weapon from Witch Hunters.

Isn't common knowledge that a bolt pistol is single handed while a bolter is double handed? Eldrad's weapon/staff is a bit unique so that is why I think some will not consider it as single handed.

Aside from the Inquisition books, I can't really think of any weapons that specify they are single handed (please don't post examples of the odd weapon that does, it really doesn't matter). This means that either you treat all unspecified weapons as single handed or some class between single and double handed. Single handed makes a hell of a lot more sense.

I've always played it as two handed. You can choose to use his staff, or the witchblade and shuriken pistol. I suppose it could probably be clearer in the codex but there's not much you can do.

EDIT: And i know you said not to post the odd example, but in the Eldar Codex, under the Autarch, it specifies one handed and two handed weapons.

I have also played it the same way and expect my opponent to do the same. If under the description of Eldrad's staff it was stated it's single handed then that would be different, but it's not the case. Here are some common examples:

Pistols - single handed
Chainsword - single handed
Power weapon, lightning claw(s) - single handed
Special & heavy weapons - double handed
Bolter, lasgun, pulse rifle - double handed

I think this is all ignoring the fact that due to Eldrad having two special weapons he doesnt get a CC bonus.

It's not a case about Double or Single Handed, it's a case of Eldrad has had to choose which weapon to use.

There are two solutions that can be interpreted by RaW. One is that the game breaks, and the other is he doesn't get a bonus attack.

I know which one I prefer.

But as it seems people have once again blown this out of all proportion, can we all shake hands and be friends before I get hit with the Banhammer for no reason again? :(

Eldrad get the same amount of bonus attacks that Calgar
using his fists gets

When I play that's one.

The point about using two special cc weapons and not getting a +1 to attack is.....that eldrad and a few other characters arent using two special cc weapons (unless we go with the rules concept that the player gets to choose which two weapons the model fights with, and the player picks two special cc). The rules do not at all address using three cc weapons. And yes, this issue has been raised in many other threads. But it does seem that many people havent ever looked at those threads, since it still seems to come as a new question often enough.


Sliggoth

Bolters are not 2 handed close combat weapons at all. They are not Pistols which is why they themselves do not add an extra CC attack. "Rifle butts" which are classified as a normal Close combat weapon and would be what a Bolter is in Close combat, are also used in the example of a "two-handed CCW" in the section of CCWs on page 42 of the brb. This does not necessarily mean that they ARE 2 handed ccws, just that they are not 1 handed ccws(for bonus attack consideration).

As far as that other "Can of worms" RAW seems pretty clear; while it doesn't address the option of more than 2 CCWs total, you would be pretty hard pressed to find any models that do not have 2 special CCWs and 1 normal(as Rifle butts are normal CCWS, even though that particular normal ccw cannot lend an extra attack anyways). 2 different specials= Never gain a bonus for 2 weapons(pretty simple wording, with a pretty simple meaning)

The Sanguinor Version 2.7 wrote:Isn't common knowledge that a bolt pistol is single handed while a bolter is double handed? Eldrad's weapon/staff is a bit unique so that is why I think some will not consider it as single handed.

There is no single and double handed-ness in any of the modern codices.

The closest you get is things like the relic blade which say you do not get bonus attacks while using it.

Depends a bit on what you mean by modern codices, both the eldar and ork refer to the handedness of some of their weapons. While they arent post 5th edition they are still fairly recent (compared to say, the necrons heh).

And the relic blade is one of the very few more recent weapons that is indeed referred to as a two-handed weapon. The trend in more recent times has been to do away with the old condensed page of listings where most references to handedness used to exist. This may be due to GW's unfortunate idea that some things are simply obvious and dont need to be mentioned


Sliggoth