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I started playing 40k during 2nd edition and WFB during 4th. I played those for a number of years off an on, dropping WFB when 7th came out and carrying on 40k until just recently.

I've also played Warmachine quite extensively since before there was a Prime rulebook.

I find these days I'm just getting bored and generally disatisifed with games that are sold as a complete package with both miniatures and the rules made by the same company.

The main reasons I don't like them:

1) Conflict of interest in rules design -- When a miniature maker makes a set of rules, there's a tendancy for sales and marketing to work its way into the fundamental design approach.

In WFB you can see this in terms of the shrinking points values and increased army size of the average game. In 40k, there was the big leap forward in 3rd edition which basically doubled the number of models needed. Since then, models have decreased in points costs and the siize of a full game has also steadily increased.

In Warmachine, there's a definite presence of making things with attachments that you need to buy to have a truly functional unit. While this was more of a case in mk1 where they actively used attachments that fixed a unit in game terms, but it's still present in mk2.

2) Release schedules and game rules -- GW loves doing big splash releases. Things only get updated rules when they have new models to sell. The designers may have ideas about how an army should change, but they are shelved until such time as a new product line and book can be released. There's no real thought given to how to best improve the game as a game. If a rule needs to change for something, it won't change unless it can be part of a marketing blitz for that army.

For warmachine, there's the problem of things being designed with future releases in mind. While every army gets releases staggered throughout the year and PP is more than willing to errata a unit's abilities (see Alexia changing from great, to amazing on her new card, back to the way it worked before because it was a mistake), there's also a disconnect between future usage and current. As the game is largely based on synergy, things need to be designed based on future releases. Khador is a good example. In MK1, Khador had even more speed boosting abilities than it does now. Some Khador players really felt that everything got slowed down and became less dynamic. Then with the rerelease of Khador in Mk2, a new warcaster was added who's shtick is speeding things up. Everything needed to be slowed down and made less dynamic so the new guy wouldn't break the game with his speed boosts. Or to put it a little more generously, to allow him to shine at what he does.

3) Play what we release, not what you can imagine -- Miniature companies that also make games for their miniatures (GW) and game companies that also make miniatures for their games (PP) often end up in the trap of only releasing models and rules when they have both. GW is generally not limited by this, but PP generally releases rules only when there's a model that will be released for it in the next year. But it's also more than that.

When it comes down to decided what type of stuff you want in your army, what miniatures you want to buy, when you're playing a game from a company that sells both miniatures and rules that are meant to work with eachother, your choices are whatever units are available to your army in the army list and what points you have left to spend. Your choices are basically limited to what they sell and what they make rules for and how they tell you to make a legal list. While you can houserule anything you like, the players of these games often establish an "official only" mindset because they trust the professional designers more than their opponents (with good reason?).

When I played Mercs regularly in warmachine, I looked at my steelheads and thought, why don't I have a cheap basic infantry unit with guns? Just recently, they released Steelhead Riflemen, but game them all sorts of special abilities and they end up costing only one point less than the named ranged units in the merc forces (Nyss, Croe's cutthroats). I still don't have my generic, cheap musket wielding infantry. Warmachine provides me absolutely no support for the type of thing I want to field.

Similarly, I remember reading about Cygnar having non-Storm Knight cavarly. Just basic cavalry. Nope. Can't play those even though they're probably a hundred times more numerous than specialized lighting powered Stormknights.

4) Rules and miniatures can be passed off on eachother's merits. Rules can give value to miniatures. You can have the ugliest miniature ever, but if the rules for it rock, the company can rely on solid subset of their customer basing buying it. Similarly, if they fail in rules design, but the miniature is great, they can sell more than they would have on rules alone. The tying together of rules and miniatures allows sub-standard work to get through on both ends. Privateer is even worse for this as the impact of a single unit is far, far greater given the smaller size of the games and the heightened levels of synergy that different game elements provide.

So where does this leave me?

I'm going to play the rules I want with the miniatures I want. I'm going to stick to smaller press rules companies who have to sell their rules based on their own merits rather than the merits of a whole package including miniatures and professional marketing. The rules have to work with miniatures other people make, so some thought is usually given to how to use whatever miniatures you want.

I'm going to review my miniatures and eBay anything I feel is too specific. There are things that only really work within the confines of very specific worlds and aren't likely to see the table much if I go generic. Some of my Legion of Everblight stuff. Some Warmachine stuff. My Lord of the Rings stuff is generic enough to be used for any fantasy type game.

I'm going to concentrate future purchasing on time-tested genre foundations. Sci-fi troopers. Aliens. Fantasy type miniatures that don't have a specific setting oozing out of them.

I'm done with "complete package" miniature gaming. It's my hobby and I feel I have to give up way, way too much and pay way, way too much to play these locked down games.

So if I get this right you don't want theme but you do want to use the same models for every game so you have to buy less/have more customizability/personalization? (I'm seriously not trying to be antagonistic, but would you say that is a decent summary?)

Not quite.

I want to have a collection of miniatures that I like.

I want to have a set of rules that I can use those miniatures with.

I don't want to care about release schedules, edition changes, and all that sort of stuff.

If a miniature I like comes out, I want to buy it and put it on the table. If I have an idea for a unit, I want to build the rules for it and then find an appropriate miniature.

So I'm going to go small press (5150 from Twohourwargames.com SuperSystem 2, Song of Blades and Heroes, Future War Commander, FAD4, etc., etc.,).

I feel like it's time to get off the marketing treadmill and go indy when it comes to rules. With the net, it's never been easier to get smaller press rules and find other interested locals.

I think I understand because I'm kind of in the same mind set in that I hate how GW uses new rules and codexes to sell models. "GW~ Oh, lets make this unit so ubber killy so everyone must have to have it." Also in the sense that once a model is built you don't want to go back and break it to rearm it because the new rules edition makes 'melta' weapsons the new 'ubber killy' weapon to have.

My answer is to do what I do... train yourself to not care. Build your models the way you want to build your models, play what you want to play... Make the game yours and stop stressing about needing to win. Because after all, that's what this all about... not having to run out and buy the new 'ubber killy' thing that wins you the game.

I usually buy whatever models I like and make they fit in whatever role I need them...it's not that hard, especially in the fantasy realm.

Come play Ancients. You'll have your pick of figures from half a dozen companies for any given period. With a bit of planning you could use the same figures/baseing for WAB, FOG, Impetus, Crusader, etc ...

Ancients definitely has a nice separation of manufacturer and rules publisher going on that's for sure.

I guess I'm starting to see the separation between those things being a good thing for my hobby. Sort of how I think separation of church and state is a good thing for my government. Conflicts of interest and compromised decision making seems to be the result of both.

There's a reason me and my mates have decided to just play with what rulebook and codex we feel like, even if it's not the newest (as well as impliment house rules). There's no game store near us, so that doesn't matter and we don't care at all about tournaments. So, if I want to use the 3.5 Chaos codex, then I'm using the 3.5 Chaos codex. If we want to shoot into close combat, then we're making rules that allow us to shoot into close combat (it's quite fun, actually). These games are just that, games, and if we don't like the rules, then there is no reason for us to stick to them.

I went over to the dark side and started playing MTG. Card games are faster, easier to set up, more convenient and more portable, and requires no painting. I just got tired of trying to set up games with people and them not being able to follow through due to time/space constraints.

@Frozenwastes: It's possible to go over to the "darkside" without going so far that you can't come back (mtg - shudder).

My friends and I went over to the darkside many years ago.
There are many sets of free SF miniature rules out there and most do not care whose models you use.

Welcome to the darkerside.

If you really want to get the ball rolling on that, you put up a SOLID website supporting your chosen ruleset, with a player-finder module, house rules, scenarios, and picture-heavy battle reports. And then start getting your players to run events at their game stores.

Once the initial ball rolls, then you tag second-generation leaders, who will step in with the first gen burns out, and task THEM with picking THEIR successors.

Then, build a National Tournament ladder.

--B.

@Frozenwastes: if you're looking into Supersystem (which I highly recommend, btw) it is now into 3rd edition, so look for that one. Also, it's a little more costly, but Chipco! makes a system called Fantasy Rules! which is also in 3rd edition, and available for download at Saber's Edge.

You might also want to check out No Quarter and No Limit; they are free rulesets that have rules for creating your own troops and armies.

I kind of collect ttg systems as part of the hobby, and as chromedog said, there are a lot of freebies out there... search away and enjoy!

-Vilegrimm

Frozenwastes,

You may want to check out 'Tomorrows War' from Ambush Alley Games when it comes out later this year.

Its a set of Sci-Fi rules, with no points system, that allows you develop your own troop and vehicle types with the focus on scenario based play. Its a 'gritty' sci-fi game rather than 'space opera' based on an attempt to visulise military equipment and tactics in a few hundred years time. Its based on the 'Force-on-Force' game engine so plays very nicely rewarding the use of 'real world' small unit tactics.

Im on the playtest team, so Im biased, but its got me back into sci-fi gaming after stopping many, many years ago. It lets me build the forces I want, the world I want and provides a system that lets the models fight how I expect future combat to be, while rewarding sensible tactics of fire and manouver. Could be worth you checking out.

I always preferred Rogue Trader over any other 40k for exactly the fact it was less scripted and allowed people to delve into their imaginations. While I think this is still true, the focus on 'competition' style points play has made the game rather flat and boring in my view and my tastes for the unending doom and gloom of the 40k universe has wained considerably. To me it feels more constrained than my preferred choice of historical gaming.

For me its my hobby and I do with it what I like... Thats the way it has to be. I dont like 40k so I dont play it, but I use some of the figures for other systems, mixed with various other figures from many other companies.

Its all about doing what you want, its your freetime after all so do want you like.

I have a question for you. Why dont you play necromunda if your case is you want models you like and an updated rule set to go along with those minis but not shill out the money for more units?

Hell blood bowl would probably be more to your liking as well.

frozenwastes wrote:

...

I'm done with "complete package" miniature gaming. It's my hobby and I feel I have to give up way, way too much and pay way, way too much to play these locked down games.

You have seen the light!

Look beyond complete package games and you will find a massive world of rules and figures in every scale, genre, and time period you could possibly want.

All easily available through the magic of the Internet.

It is good to get away from GW, privateer and the rest. GW lost me when they started to dictate what the general community could do with their games - the draconian IP crackdown etc,

Get out and see what is out there, Stargrunt, Beamstrike and Fast and Dirty are free rules that satisfy the sci fi itch - you do not have to be tied to one companies figures.

The same applies accross the board. Got an idea for a game - there is probably a yahoo group already.

This hobby is boring, only if you let it be

Your in the same boat as all of us who lament the Rackham Metals > PP. Very smilar situation.

frozenwastes wrote:I'm going to play the rules I want with the miniatures I want.

Same boat.

For I don't know how many years using non-GW minis for 40K-based games was something I would just never do. In the past 6 months I've ordered from Antenociti's Workshop, MicroArt, Heresy, Pegasus, Scibor and Ex Illis. No looking back now.

Embrace it all.

Keep in mind that some of the trends you describe have been just as much player driven. In fact I have always witnessed a general tendency among wargamers to always want to push for bigger games with more models.

I remember people regularly trying to play huge 2nd edition 40K games, etc.

Why wouldn't a company capitalize on such player tendencies and trends?

And thus we see things like Apocalypse: It finally gave those of us who have huge collections and a love of mega-battles an official format to do what we have been home brewing for years,etc.

There is always Historical minatures. No real set rules from them other then what you decide upon. All you would need to do is pick a size and roll with it. Afterall, how many times can you re-release a German Tiger, or US Sherman Tank?

I assume your post included bloodcrushers? lol
£18 each, 8 per unit, 24 per army.
Stupidly strong in combat, good saves and ignore saves of others.
All in all, everything you want in an assault unit, just somewhat expensive, but needed if you want WAAC.

Good luck - I wonder if your shift will be as satisfying when you no longer have the Fluff behind the models.

Vilegrimm wrote:@Frozenwastes: if you're looking into Supersystem (which I highly recommend, btw) it is now into 3rd edition, so look for that one. Also, it's a little more costly, but Chipco! makes a system called Fantasy Rules! which is also in 3rd edition, and available for download at Saber's Edge.

My mistake. I actually have the 3rd edition. I also have FR!3 as well as FR!TCE. I think the TCE is better as a simpler, faster play set of rules that can still cover most everything.

Big P wrote:Frozenwastes,

You may want to check out 'Tomorrows War' from Ambush Alley Games when it comes out later this year.

Good call. I've heard good things about Ambush Alley's rules sets.

Golga wrote:I have a question for you. Why dont you play necromunda if your case is you want models you like and an updated rule set to go along with those minis but not shill out the money for more units?

Necromunda is just as locked down as 40k, perhaps more so. You have X different gangs with different types you can take (juvie, ganger, heavy, whatever) and that's it.

Hell blood bowl would probably be more to your liking as well.

I've played in organized BB leagues for years.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Good luck - I wonder if your shift will be as satisfying when you no longer have the Fluff behind the models.

Because I can't set my games in the 41st Millenium or in the Iron Kingdoms because why? Or develop my own fiction for stuff? Or take whatever fiction I want, written by any author, and come up with rules and find miniatures for it?

WTF?

Keep the fluff, use different rules. I like it.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Good luck - I wonder if your shift will be as satisfying when you no longer have the Fluff behind the models.

Yes, yes it is.

@OP: like I said, good luck. It's hard doing the work, but if that's what floats your boat, go for it!

Work?

This is a hobby. Figuring out the thematic/story side of my gaming has never, ever been "work."

Not even effort really. It just sort of flows.

And even for people it doesn't, if I'm playing a game that involves Space Marines, I can port in whatever 40k fictional info I like. There's no more work/effort involved in playing rules X with fiction Y than there is in playing rules Z with fiction Y.

frozenwastes wrote:Because I can't set my games in the 41st Millenium or in the Iron Kingdoms because why? Or develop my own fiction for stuff? Or take whatever fiction I want, written by any author, and come up with rules and find miniatures for it?

Yeah, you're right, doing it isn't that hard. I mean, 40K has virtually every Sci-Fi and Fantasy trope, meme and cliché in it already, but finding room for stuff that you wan't certainly isn't impossible. I invented a race for 40K as a sort of throwaway line for some background for a Guardsman in Dark Heresy, and were I to develop them further, I'd end up using the Therian models from AT-43 to make the race.

Means you get to try out new models, and get to put some fresh concepts in the game. Far more interesting than 'MOAR MARINES!!! HURR!.

I'm often tempted to take that plunge, but I suppose what holds me back is the lack of a stable group of people to play with. I like to play against a large variety of people, and regularly. But I am tempted to give a go anyhow, just so's I can try out a whole bunch of different models. Certainly, GW and PP are getting too pricey for what I get these days.

Good grief, some wierdo posts that he's going to play his hobby his own way, without regard to corporate approval, and everyone reacts like that is somehow praiseworthy.

What the hell is wrong with you people? Why is no one screaming STFU HERETIC!!!? Where have all the fanbois gone?

Is this really the intarnets?