Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Manticore

Pros
D3 Strength ordinance 10 AP4 large templates are good vs both vehicles and hordes.
Good range can shoot anywhere on the board.
Can fire ordinance barrage to hit things out of los, deny cover, or cause pinning tests.

Cons
Limited Ammunition 4 shots is not as bad as you usually do good damage by the time you run out of ammo and the game might end on turn 5 and you might have not seen anything turn 1 on dawn of war
AV12/10/10 is pretty easy to kill.
Only AP4 so marines get their armor save.

Leman Russ Demolisher

Pros
Strength 10 Ordinance AP2 large template for insta gibbing anything outside of cover, this insta kills warbosses and thunder wolves unless they have invulns. also ok vs vehicles.
AV14/13/11

Cons
Short Range of 24 or more like 22 if you want to get good coverage with its template or hit center mass of a vehicle makes it vulnerable to multi meltas, meltas and assault from terminators in a land raider
Only 1 shot can scatter badly.
Cost 5 points more then a Manticore.

I been running Manticores since last year. I like them but a friend of mine targetawg been making a strong argument for the demolisher saying that you need them to kill Thunderwolves and AV14 is really good. What do you think?

Uhm, personally, I avoid Demolishers completely.

They're not tougher to crack than other tanks, they have much shorter range, and to ensure you get any AP2 shots off at all you need multiple of them.

If he has a big terminator unit, he'll probably send 1-2 things with meltas to destroy the single demolisher without it achieving anything. (Because he knows you only have 1 threat to his terminators and it's short range, he just needs to stand them back and wait for demo to die before using them.)

An executioner naked is 36" range instead of 24" and can put out 3 S7 AP2 blasts (Handles terminators great.) (Or 5 blasts per turn if you have spare points.) If you bought the plasma sponsons then it'd be expensive, but even if a lascannon takes the main gun off (at which point demolisher does nothing) it'd still have terminator-killing power. That range bonus could likely get it 1-2 extra turns shooting and/or alive.

I prefer Manticore

4-12 big blasts that pretty much hit anything on the table is very good. sure marine armor can shrug it off but some good rolls and you could take out a raider

I take both! In my opinion, you only need one Mantacore. And a few Leman Russ's will help make sure that they aren't shooting at the Manticore.

headrattle wrote:I take both! In my opinion, you only need one Mantacore. And a few Leman Russ's will help make sure that they aren't shooting at the Manticore.

I'm actually running both as well in my current list. the manticore and plasma sponsons on the DBT reach out and touch before the Main cannon, but not for long usually.
so far, it's working well.

The manticore does more damage. The demolisher has AV14. If you want fancy armor thrown out in the middle of the field, use the tank. If you want to squeeze as much damage as possible out of every point, take the manticore.

Ailaros wrote:squeeze as much damage as possible out of every point, take the manticore.

I need them emphasise that this sounds a whole lot better than it feels on the field. It sounds like you're comfortable with the relative vulnerablity of AV12, but I'd say you should give a Leman Russ a shot. I think the Demolisher is a particularly good tank, maybe even the best all-rounder. AV14 is virtually impervious at range, and difficult to break with a Meltagun (a BS4 shot has a 43% chance to penetrate). Because the weapons that are effective against Chimeras are so vastly different from those that work against Russes, the Leman Russes really don't provide target saturation. Taking this into account, you have to force your opponent to deal with it by putting it between your tanks and his guns. Use it primarily to shield your Chimeras, although Russes with longer ranges can shield artillery batteries to great effect.

I think the choice would be heavily modified by the rest or your army. If most of your army is a long range gun line then I would say the Demolisher would be out of place. A lot of it would depend on you opponents also - do they run lots of meltas? If so - go for range and take the Manticore.

I agree with your assessment of russes, darkhound, but I don't really see the conflict. Yes, AV14 is more durable against long ranged guns, and yes, they should be used primarily as shields. However, against short ranged stuff, they're not ALL that much better (especially once the close combat starts), and opponents can always get in close (drop pod combi-melta sternguard anyone)?

Of course, they both fire S10 templates, but the manticore fires up to three times as many in a single go over much longer ranges that hit side armor of vehicles and situationally ignore cover.

The end result is that the manticore does more damage and the russ is more durable. A classic example of the difference between tanks and artillery in general.

What it comes down to for you is whether or not you want the solid capabilities offered by the LRD: heavy armour, AP, mobile firepower; or the possibility of more pie (longer-ranged but weaker) but with reduced capabilities beyond that.

2 Manticores and 0 Leman Russ Demolishers.. Manticores do more damage on average and are more flexible with better range and options. AP2 is highly overrated because of the many cover saves available and AV14 isn't what it used to be in the age of the melta and multimelta.

2 Demolishers 0 Manticores here. <-- 1500 point list

My FLGS is 90% Marines so the AP4 is a major problem, whilst the AP2 solves pretty much all my problems. AV14 is very tough to crack, even with meltaguns, and generally they are a lot more useful considering the way that I use my tanks.

However, in my 2K list I am considering including a Manticore, as the higher model tally would make the most of the potential 3 5" blasts.

I love me my Demolishers!

L. Wrex

Ailaros wrote:but I don't really see the conflict.

There isn't one. I was just harping on the merits of durability because no one in the thread had articulated that point. I advocated for the Demolisher here because it is something new for him to try.

Well, allright. I guess we'll just have to agree to agree, then

headrattle wrote:I take both! In my opinion, you only need one Mantacore. And a few Leman Russ's will help make sure that they aren't shooting at the Manticore.

This is a good idea. Too many manticores is a little overboard. I wold take a Manticore, two Griffon Mortars, and two Demolishers. That sounds mean to me.

Spoiler is me ranting. Long read of my tired butt rambling on about analogies.





I have used both of these tanks together with the greatest effect, just as I have mentioned above. I have used one manticore along with two LRD's, having the LRD's push ahead with the assault but I have given thought to purchasing a second manticore and squadding the LRD's together to form a little harder to stop force (basically gaining extra armor and dealing with the fact that if this short range tank got immobilized, it might as well be dead already) and gaining even more firepower to be had in the heavy support slot.

I have lost faith in hydras before I really even got to use them. In the idea that a platoon of men backed by the orders of a CCS, give the same effect with a scoring unit that only costs a few more points with only a slightly less accurate shot that can be compensated for with orders. (the blobbed platoon has autocannons, just to mention)

The scariest Guard lists I play against use both. Having one or two Demolishers lead the armored Chimera spearhead rushing towards objectives while a Manticore plinks away from behind cover tends to make the Demolishers a priority target (i.e. you have to kill the AV14/13/11 pillbox sitting on an objective) and give the Manticore enough time to fire off all its shots. Its particularly good against MEQs as an Demolisher near center field will negate armor and cover saves unless the Marine unit is physically in cover. I've found that in the hands of a good opponent, the Demolisher is usually able to maneuver to negate most self-provided cover (i.e. intervening Rhinos) at short ranges.

Thanks for the input.

I been finding that 2 Manticores has been better then 1 because of the law of averages with the d3 missles and 1 tends to get taken out rather quickly. If you have 2 Manticores one usually survives to do some damage.

I haven't run Demolishers lately but when I was running them last year I found the short range really to be a huge problem. They get nailed by multimeltas and assaults way to often. Rolling bad for lumbering behemoth when rolling on from dawn of war and immobilizing itself on terrain have also been demolisher banes.

Marines tend to get cover from area terrain if they a heavy weapon combat squad or group of longfangs or if they advancing in a vehicle the crater of their exploded ride or hiding behind the wrecked hulk of their ride. Not much you can do about any of these.

Been having trouble fitting 3 heavies at anything other then 2k and above. You want enough scoring units for the d3+2 objective mission as well as the CCS, PBS and 3 Vendettas making it hard to fit.

I don't like squadrons so if anything I might run 1 Demolisher and 2 Manticores. 2 Demolishers and 1 Manticore I tried last year and I was running in to way to many Land Raider + Assault terminator payloads supported by multimelta attack bikes / speeders that would kill my demolishers very quickly.

Kirika wrote:Thanks for the input.

I been finding that 2 Manticores has been better then 1 because of the law of averages with the d3 missles and 1 tends to get taken out rather quickly. If you have 2 Manticores one usually survives to do some damage.

I haven't run Demolishers lately but when I was running them last year I found the short range really to be a huge problem. They get nailed by multimeltas and assaults way to often. Rolling bad for lumbering behemoth when rolling on from dawn of war and immobilizing itself on terrain have also been demolisher banes.

Marines tend to get cover from area terrain if they a heavy weapon combat squad or group of longfangs or if they advancing in a vehicle the crater of their exploded ride or hiding behind the wrecked hulk of their ride. Not much you can do about any of these.

Been having trouble fitting 3 heavies at anything other then 2k and above. You want enough scoring units for the d3+2 objective mission as well as the CCS, PBS and 3 Vendettas making it hard to fit.

I don't like squadrons so if anything I might run 1 Demolisher and 2 Manticores. 2 Demolishers and 1 Manticore I tried last year and I was running in to way to many Land Raider + Assault terminator payloads supported by multimelta attack bikes / speeders that would kill my demolishers very quickly.

Attack bikes / speeders will kill either very quickly unfortunately. and don't be affraid to have a 2 tank squadron. it works great for me. i know i was leery of it at first.